How can SE make the Redmage frontline job?

give the redmages refresh + haste passive job trait works like aura easy answer

. . . oh, wait, you're serious, aren't you?

/sigh

Long story short, no.

Make them better frontline attackers is the simplest and most realistic way.

Wow, years of discussion were rendered pointless by one sentence.

Jack of all trades. Master of none. You will not ever be as good of a melee, as a job that was specifically designed for it. Anyone who puts the same amount of effort into their job as you do will beat you. The game is designed that way. Get over it.

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Originally Posted by Bigboy

Jack of all trades. Master of none. You will not ever be as good of a melee, as a job that was specifically designed for it. Anyone who puts the same amount of effort into their job as you do will beat you. The game is designed that way. Get over it.

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Nobody is contesting this. I start seeing problems, though, when White Mages start out-damaging us . . .

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Wow, years of discussion were rendered pointless by one sentence.

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I'd go with it, but I'm somewhat miffed at us getting a healer job trait we don't really need.

In all seriousness, though, Refresh and Haste have really turned into a thorn on RDM's side when it comes to accepted roles. Big, big problem.

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Jack of all trades. Master of none. You will not ever be as good of a melee, as a job that was specifically designed for it. Anyone who puts the same amount of effort into their job as you do will beat you.

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A design philosophy that has been proven to fail unless your intention all along was to bait-and-switch the hybrids in question into healer roles. If anything, the developers need to get it through their heads that such a design model doesn't work in MMOs.

If you doubt my claim, ask yourself why so many people are intent on us getting Cure V.

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Originally Posted by Tamarsamar

Nobody is contesting this. I start seeing problems, though, when White Mages start out-damaging us . . .

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They get a better WS than RDM. But to do that damage they have to sacrifice a lot more than a RDM does. Even with that, I am able to out-damage an equally geared WHM. They get a 6-hit, and you get a 5. It's not that outrageous.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

A design philosophy that has been proven to fail unless your intention all along was to bait-and-switch the hybrids in question into healer roles. If anything, the developers need to get it through their heads that such a design model doesn't work in MMOs.

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It is only considered a failure by people like yourself that don't understand proper game balancing. If you got your way, what would the purpose be to playing any other job? I can already solo HNMs, I can replace WHMs and BLMs in many situations, and you are upset because you don't get to take advantage of a Paladin hate tactic.

...Look at the mods for Hexa Strike, now look at the mods for Evi

...yeah

Did I mention that clubs also have higher base damage not to mention they actually get good clubs unlike Rdm which has only gotten like 2 good daggers since CoP

Not to mention that it's REALLY easy to get a 26% haste with their cheap blessed set while we are still stuck in like 2005 with dusk.

I mean when we were 75 the only thing holding them back was their lack of accuracy. Now that abyssea is here their only weakness for meleeing has been abolished and competent Whms are able to compete with any non-empyrean job.

An equally geared Whm will curb stomp an equally geared Rdm (and a lot of other jobs actually) unless the Red Mage has CDC.


Did I mention Whm is also the ONLY job capable of healing at the moment?

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Originally Posted by Bigboy

It is only considered a failure by people like yourself that don't understand proper game balancing. If you got your way, what would the purpose be to playing any other job?

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Weapon preference, gameplay preference, thematic reasons, aesthetics, etc. The argument is worn and overused. And has been debunked several times.

Of course, you seem to be under the impression that we want to be able to heal and nuke and support and enfeeble and melee well all at the same time. Far from the case, but don't let it stop you from thinking us the harbingers of the apocalypse.

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you are upset because you don't get to take advantage of a Paladin hate tactic.

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What annoys me are the implications. We have shield mastery but abysmal shield skill, not to mention little to no hate tools of our own. Then the only announced change for this patch is a freaking healer-oriented trait despite all the other aspects and parts of our job that need to be looked at. Specially seeing how many ideas and discussions have taken place over the years. Between Escrime, Spellblade/Botta Majica, the En Garde variations, not to mention all those enspell adjustments, I thought there might be something worth using in there.

So unless a RDM puts effort into their gearing, like the WHM has to, they will lose? Think I said that. And if WHM is the only job capable of healing, that kinda necessitates the need for enhancing other healers, does it not?

You also act like dusk is expensive in comparison to blessed. Maybe that is a server thing for you, but that isn't the case on my server. I am still not seeing the deficiency. I have not been "curb stomped" by an optimally geared melee WHM yet. You might just need to change up your game.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Weapon preference, gameplay preference, thematic reasons, aesthetics, etc. The argument is worn and overused. And has been debunked several times.

Of course, you seem to be under the impression that we want to be able to heal and nuke and support and enfeeble and melee well all at the same time. Far from the case, but don't let it stop you from thinking us the harbingers of the apocalypse.
What annoys me are the implications. We have shield mastery but abysmal shield skill, not to mention little to no hate tools of our own. Then the only announced change for this patch is a freaking healer-oriented trait despite all the other aspects and parts of our job that need to be looked at. Specially seeing how many ideas and discussions have taken place over the years. Between Escrime, Spellblade/Botta Majica, the En Garde variations, not to mention all those enspell adjustments, I thought there might be something worth using in there.

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Sorry dude, you want to play something that doesn't exist. You overstate my point. I don't think you harbringers of doom. I think you are just completely unaware of reality. You want something that the rest of the population doesn't. You want to be over powered. You don't think that is what you are asking for, but it is.

Here's an example of your logic. "WHM get's shield skill, and flash, along with big cures. They should get Defense Bonus instead of clear mind because they are already clearly superior tanks. If they didn't intend for them to be tanks, they wouldn't give them shield skill."

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Originally Posted by Bigboy

You want something that the rest of the population doesn't.

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If THF somehow became an accepted healer in this game people that wanted quick groups and invites would just flock to it, and the populous would eventually pressure even the established players that like swinging daggers to shut up and heal. No different if the same happened to DRK or DRG. I understand this game has always been short on healers (after all, this is the game that turned Summoner into the joke that was /WHM due to people's desperation for someone to handle cures), but keeping RDM relevant only in that department for the most part is a very very bad thing when speaking of a class designed to be flexible and have multiple roles. Again, it's the hybrid bait-and-switch, and it gets tiresome to see it after a while.

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You want to be over powered. You don't think that is what you are asking for, but it is.

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Only because you say so, huh? Because the ideas are all stand alone and would not be in conjunction with other adjustments to make melee RDM workable and balanced (without even killing the support/healer option that so many outside of our little forums seem to love). And because none of us here are flexible in terms of numbers and possible tweaks.

I don't think that just because I say it. I think that because you are asking for things that would make you overpowered. You keep saying there is a hybrid bait and switch. You were given cure spells so you could heal. What did you miss earlier in your life as a RDM that made you think this wouldn't always be the case? What did they suddenly do that makes the job not what it seemed?

I mean, you really can't have thought they wanted you to to be a tank. This sounds like you had unrealistic expectations, and now that you have finally realized the truth, you are upset. Nothing has changed. RDM is still a support class, like it's always been.

Sorry, but if you're not being curb stomped by the WHM, the WHM isn't that well geared. Prior to Composure, WHMs had superior ACC through higher weapon skill rating (ATK, too... and I guess you can't discount Auspice's Zanshin for a secondary ACC). Their TPing equipment was more readily accessible and hits the Haste cap sooner (Both have to chase Goliard, but RDMs have to spend their ASA pants on Haste gear or pray for a good augment from the Saur ANNM). There are other inconveniences like needing HQ'd dusk (not cheap) or praying you had a speed belt for whatever reason. WHMs also put the K.Club to its best use, which obviously allows them to crank out 3k+ Hexas much more often. The WHM also doesn't have to trudge through trials and either hope they get lucky in WoE or con some people to outfit a melee RDM with an Almace. A simple junked drop from a commonly killed NM will get the WHM a good club for 85+. Both get the Haste spell. Both get some kind of additional damage through Enspells or Auspice's Enlight. Gratuitous use of Mystic Boon stomps the everloving crap out of Convert, further expanding WHM's MP utility as a hybrid DD while skirting past the popular TP feed argument used against RDMs in the past, again, thanks to Auspice. Frankly, people underestimate Misery mode in general. Sonic Boom? Why hello there Esuna. Bomb Toss? What's this Cura do... A RDM would have to sub DNC to even get close to that level of utility through Healing and Divine Waltz, and even then it's miles behind thanks to timers and TP dependency, which further diminishes their damage due to lost potential WS. The only thing WHMs lose to RDM on defensively is Phalanx, but that's probably a moot point now with Solace's cureskin.

So, can the overpowered nonsense. Damage might be the easiest way to sway people into acceptance, but a good utility hook can do the job, too. I won't argue with either angle, but SE persistently ignoring the issue for years is part of what got RDM into its current state of neglect and blandness. Whining counterpoints of "They took our job!" or "Why level anything else other than RDM?" are just big glowing signs saying, "I'm not really thinking too hard about this one..."

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Originally Posted by Bigboy

You were given cure spells so you could heal. What did you miss earlier in your life as a RDM that made you think this wouldn't always be the case? What did they suddenly do that makes the job not what it seemed?

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There's a significant difference between having the option to cast cures and having the role of healer shoved down your throat. You can have a focus in melee with some off-healing capability. It's a matter of tweaking resources and modifiers, not to mention adding a mechanic or two to act as safeguards. It's not meant to replace anyone who is dedicated to cast heals, but to act as filler where appropriate. I wouldn't even be saying any of this if I had not seen it work before. The best part is that it does not need to be the only role available to RDM.

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I mean, you really can't have thought they wanted you to to be a tank. This sounds like you had unrealistic expectations, and now that you have finally realized the truth, you are upset. Nothing has changed. RDM is still a support class, like it's always been.

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Personally, I have no interest in Red Mage tanking. I do, however, get irked by changes that make no sense. I also feel for those who enjoy tanking while on RDM but were nerfed out of it. You can't call a class versatile if it's versatility is either not accepted by the other players or not supported by the game itself.

Lastly, a generalist a support class does not make. They're just the poor sods that get stuck either healing or mezzing because they offer nothing else of worth to a group in the greater scheme of things. That's basically what those of the melee camp want to see change.

RDM/DRK FTW!!! So now that no one is taking me seriously, I have to say that RDM is still fun to play and DD/Support is all I do.

Off heal? Yes please.
Main heal? No thanks.
Buffs/Debuffs? All day!!!
Dark magic? Of course.
Melee? Who doesn't?

When I'm in smaller groups I tank by using enemity gear, hiting hard, and healing. I get less hate for healing now, but if i'm not being focused, I'm just going to turn last resort on and leave it on.

Fix enspells and I'll be happy without Cure V. Another RDM Buff/Debuff would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Bigboy

I can already solo HNMs

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Your credibility ends here.

At level 90 there is a 6 skill point difference in the weapons. Mystic Boon is nice for getting MP if you don't mind falling behind in damage. That's one of those trade-offs I mentioned. If you think 3k+ hexastrikes are amazing, you aren't doing it right enough to really have this discussion though. If you have ever used a KC before, you would also know how it impacts WS damage. There is something about off handing one that seems to really lower it. You also have access to double attack gear a WHM doesn't have an infinitely more attack.

I mean, I am having trouble even explaining this because I had been assuming you already knew... You can reach haste cap pretty easily on RDM, and have more options for WS gear and pieces with other beneficial effects. There is also almost no evasion gear for a WHM.

So yeah, you are asking to be overpowered. I've given it alot of thought, you must have too, but just didn't do your research.

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Originally Posted by Carth

Your credibility ends here.

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Just because you suck doesn't mean I do. I honestly feel like you need to explain yourself here before I report you for trolling.

Ow, that hurt, stung. I'm gonna go home and cry now.

Seriously though, you're making baseless assumptions. Even the BG forums believe RDM needs an update, now that's something to think about.

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Originally Posted by Carth

Ow, that hurt, stung. I'm gonna go home and cry now.

Seriously though, you're making baseless assumptions. Even the BG forums believe RDM needs an update, now that's something to think about.

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EVEN the BG forums!?!? I didn't realize they weren't also full of all the same people complaining here. Things must have changed drastically since the 5 minutes ago when I last toggled tabs.

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Originally Posted by Bigboy

EVEN the BG forums!?!? I didn't realize they weren't also full of all the same people complaining here. Things must have changed drastically since the 5 minutes ago when I last toggled tabs.

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You derped and missed the point. That's okay though, I forgive you.

I'll give you one guess why your argument falls apart at "solo HNMs".

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Originally Posted by Carth

You derped and missed the point. That's okay though, I forgive you.

I'll give you one guess why your argument falls apart at "solo HNMs".

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Mostly because HNMs are a thing of the past. The point stands. I was giving examples of how RDM has been consistently doing things other jobs have been unable to do for years. That is still the case. If you have some other magical reason you have neglected to mention, despite all your posts, then now is the time to give it.

Here's how you can make melee a frontline job without any help from SE!

/pcmd leave
/equip meleeset
/engage mob

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Originally Posted by Bigboy

Mostly because HNMs are a thing of the past. The point stands. I was giving examples of how RDM has been consistently doing things other jobs have been unable to do for years. That is still the case. If you have some other magical reason you have neglected to mention, despite all your posts, then now is the time to give it.

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Admittedly a good answer, but not quite what I was looking for. The answer to what I was looking for is "It's solo". Soloing is often the brunt of the update naysayers when in fact plenty of jobs can solo as well, especially in this era of Abyssea. Soloing NMs is not unique to RDM.

To drive my point home however, no one, at least the people I've known for years, is asking for RDM to be overpowered. We can replace WHM, but we'll never be as good as WHM. We can replace BLM, but we'll never be as good as BLM. We however cannot replace a DD because they're just leagues better than us (theoretically. Gear can make lopsided arguments in terms of practicality). We're still good tanks vs low-man stuff, but the -Enmity healing will make it weaker.

The issue isn't that we can't melee (in fact we can). It's that the mage side is aggressively lop-sided compared to the melee side.

If we were called Spellswords, I would take your side, but we are Redmages. I figure that is the reasoning behind our design.

If I were to augment a RDM's melee skills though, I would have given us the highest parry in the game, being that we are made out to be Fencers. Probably would have dropped our shield skill completely too. In previous iterations they often show RDMs with staffs, so I would have given us a D skill there (as opposed to nothing). The FFXI makeup of a RDM is a little off from their previous iterations, but altogether similar. No RDM has ever been an amazing melee since FF1, when you could use some of the strongest weapons in the game. I would like to see a return of dual cast though, as that is a uniquely RDM talent, introduced in FF5.

Oh snap, the "mage" line. Someone tell BLUs to go home.

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Originally Posted by Bigboy

If we were called Spellswords, I would take your side, but we are Redmages. I figure that is the reasoning behind our design.

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Not really. Design philosophies shifted throughout the life of FFXI. If you look at the pre-TAU classes, they're all designed in a very open way. Even stat alocations for certain gear like AF reflect this. It's after TAU came out that the devs started saying "Ok, this is a new class, and we want it to do this, this and this, but not that or the other thing", and the class' design reflects it very well, from BLU all the way to SCH. PUP has been the outlier this whole time, getting an insane amount of developer attention despite being quite capable in terms of design, concept and what it brings to the table.

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In previous iterations they often show RDMs with staffs, so I would have given us a D skill there (as opposed to nothing). The FFXI makeup of a RDM is a little off from their previous iterations, but altogether similar. No RDM has ever been an amazing melee since FF1, when you could use some of the strongest weapons in the game. I would like to see a return of dual cast though, as that is a uniquely RDM talent, introduced in FF5.

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It breaks even, actually. The most popular depiction of RDM I've seen to date, however, matches how I look at the class: a fencer with a rapier in one hand and magical energy glowing from the other. A testimony to our being right on the line that separates melee from mage.

Carth puts it well in saying our mage side far outweights the melee side at the moment, which is why I say what I say. To add, it is the fate of generalist classes in MMOs as a whole when left as they are. Yes, this thing RDM went through since the day Refresh was introduced HAS happened before.

One could argue the "Balance" you request could be achieved via your subjob choice.
No, read that again. It is in fact true.

RedMAGES are only really lopsided as a MAGE because YOU chose a MAGE sub. Everything you're asking for here could be attained by subbing War, Dark, or even Nin.

Is it optimal? No, not at all.

But a Melee Rdm hold their own compared to a 'normal' melee about as much as comparing a Rdm healer to Whm, or a Rdm nuker to Blm. Asking for a "Melee Update" is kind of a head scratcher, when you got so many better tools at your disposal, even to be the proverbial "DD" that you say is lacking. (I say that because you seem to forget "DD" stands for "Damage Dealer" and if you weren't a relevant "DD" then what do you call your Nukes?)

One could argue (very accurately) what you guys ask for is for your job to be Blu. At which point I would say, just level Blu. It literally does EVERYTHING a Rdm typically wants Rdm to be when they aren't satisfied with how Rdm is.

But the one thing that makes Rdm as a Rdm shine is it's greatest assets: Rdm's fast cast and enfeebling skill/spells. You can literally "Bore a mob to death" with DoT's; or Nukes trading off with any of the following: bind, break, sleep, sleep II, sleepga, stun, etc... And your position in parties is guaranteed for those same reasons, so how exactly are you deficient again? Because you can't poke shit with your sword? Really? You're one of the most vital jobs in the game, and you're irritated you're not more useful?

I agree with the general desires of both sides of this argument however. On the one side, Bigboy's completely right, strengthening anything on Rdm brings back an imbalance, yet everyone else is right the job has grown quite stale doing the same thing, and really could use an update other than just another tier of spells.

But....

Just because you don't play a certain way, doesn't mean that certain way doesn't doesn't exist. Changing your job too drastically can render other jobs obsolete. If the Rdm was a melee as well as healer, nuker and enfeebler, why invite anything else? Because everything else is still better? Then you're with the same problem before, no change. If you surpass an actual melee, you've removed them from the game. Make sense?

As with other threads, no one is really seeking balance so much as they are seeking absolute dominance, and Rdms are especially guilty of that.

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Originally Posted by Frost

But a Melee Rdm hold their own compared to a 'normal' melee about as much as comparing a Rdm healer to Whm, or a Rdm nuker to Blm. Asking for a "Melee Update" is kind of a head scratcher, when you got so many better tools at your disposal.

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By comparing a Rdm healer to a Whm you mean doesn't hold a candle and fails miserably.

Sure Rdms, are decent with nukes, but then again, our nukes are about the ONLY thing that has improved pushing past 75.

And isn't it natural for the "Jack of all trades" to ask for a buff where we are currently weakest (and by a good margin from the top as well)

Really, if you are saying that all we are asking for is SUPER SAIYAN DAMAGE HAX0RS you clearly haven't been following the discussion about HOW SE can make Rdm a frontline melee job.

Really, I've tested out more ways for Red Mage to melee then just someone that sees enspells and auto decides that /nin + OaX is the way to go (Not saying it isn't, /nin is certainly the best way atm), but the more time I spend meleeing on Red Mage the more and more I see the stupidest shit get in the way.

I mean what other job do you see practically being forced to main hand a weapon that SE has practically neglected for the job (Oh right, Drk, and there's a reason they are receiving the super update soon)

We aren't asking to become the super job that heals better then a white mage, nukes better then a black mage, DDs better then a warrior, and tanks better then a Nin/Mnk/Pld (with Ochain). We are just asking them to actually start making SENSE with the job. I mean, Shield Mastery. Native Aeolian Edge but not Sanguine Blade? Losing the ability to wear newer Doublets?

When you get down to it the choices the new SE devs have made pretty much indirectly kicked Rdm Melee in the balls whether physically or in spirit. They name a new melee trait Fencer and first give it to...the Axe wielding jobs, right because fencing with axes makes sense, but fear not next update...brd now gets it. BRD, a job that quite frankly melees about as effectively as us. Remind me what's the name of our JSE accessories and what weapon type we specialize in?

What's coming next update? The ability to augment certain Rare/Ex items, yay, too bad that it likely won't work on already augmented armor like the 3 add on expansion armors that Rdm practically needs to melee. You know what job really makes off like a bandit with augmenting Rare/Ex armors? Once again Brd, The ability to augment Kitty pants and likely Hetacomb armor is going to give it a huge advantage.

So, really, White Mage already curb stomps any non-CDC Red Mage, and as of next update any debate between Brd and Rdm will likely go out the window as well with Brds new augmented super powered Hetacomb gear.

I think it's well within our rights to ask for a melee update when Whms and Brds start out meleeing us.

i dunno man, i've been meleeing on rdm since this game came out and i can honestly say it's gotten steadily worse as time went by. (and that's WITH war/drk/nin/blu/pld for subs)

for a long time i felt like all i was really missing was a good ws when subbing nin or something to do with my left hand when subbing not nin, and that was "close enough" for me to be satisfied. sure i had hauberk envy, along with several other things, but i never expected to be "as good" just "within striking distance"

but the "rules" have kept changing and changing. and rdm has been drifting further and further from the job i was sold on all those years ago.

toa was when it really got bad. before that rdm melee was a debate. there might be one a-hole in a pt that would flip out but there'd be one or 2 others that saw things my way. plus back then ppl would invite an rdm AND a whm to the SAME pt.. i know, insane right?

if i wanted to be a whm i'd have chosen whm. i'll cure you if you're bleeding, i like having that in my back pocket JiC, but i refuse to sit in the corner and spam cure4 upon cure4 into infinity.

then spampage pts happened and my old friends "the whm" and "the tank" were gone, and i'm expected to solo heal 3-4 spamming dd's? pass, i was already 75 at this point, so i just solo'd most of my merits.

then the 2hander update happens and suddenly everybody without a 2handed weapon is gimp? guess who doesn't have a 2handed weapon? rdm... but then to make it even worse, they give thf dnc and blu duel wield, AND give warrior, bst and BARD fencer. leaving rdm at the very bottom melee tier, stuck using 1handed weapons without any type of native job trait to buff them. skill/trait wise rdm is now at about pld and whm lvl. oh but wait. pld and whm get there good ws' natively, so they can sub whatever they need to.

you could say rdm has evisceration natively, except rdm has exactly TWO daggers above lvl 75! what weapons do we get? swords.. what sword ws' do we get? death blossom.... yah.. death blossom is rdms best ws without subbing war/pld/blu/drk, or holding an almace. (blu... why blu? wtf?! that's just an insult.)

and while THIS has been happening, rdm's normal melee gear has gotten worse and worse relative to any respected dd, hell even next to a thf, a dancer, or even a bard...

lets just say that over the years i've been spending more and more time on my pld or warrior, as opposed to my rdm. my first 75 and the job i still consider my main, because i can't stand playing it in the state it's in. who knows, maybe once i finish my almace i'll get some of that spark back. but even if it ends up being everything i dream it will be, that still won't solve the problem with the job.


TL;DR? i don't expect rdm to be as good a tank or melee as a real tank or melee, but i also feel that it deserves to be close enough to warrant consideration, as opposed to ridicule. i am SO tired of watching rdm go steadily down the same boring, and imo, WRONG path. i refuse to play WHM-1

Well by that logic, Brds and Whms should get a variety of Tier IV nukes and Dark Magic skill!

Dude, if you try to make sense of SE, your head's going to explode. Go look up Ranger relic pants man, 10 Parry skill on a job that has no native parry skill....

RDM is on a lot of H2H weapons, Bows and Staves... As well as Possesses a native Divine skill, yet no native divine magic. Does that mean they should be Monk/Ranjer hybrids and have access to Banish I-IV?

Rdm ironically is the only job that's consistently made sense. You want "direction" and it's staring you right in the face. SE wants you to be a mage, a support mage, one that has nukes.

Reminds me of the "Priest in the Quicksand".

Priest sinking in quicksand and along comes an explorer.
The explorer asks "Do you need help?"
To which the priest responds, "No, the lord will save me."
The priest sinks further, and again he's visited, this time by an archaeologist.
The archaeologist asks as well, "Do you need help?"
And the priest again waves him off, "No I will be ok, the lord will save me."
Now the priest is up to his neck in quicksand, and a soldier wanders by.
The soldier drops to the ground and reaches out and tries to get the priest to take his hand.
"I'm ok," says the priest, "the good lord will save me."
Those were the last words of the priest as he sank into the quicksand and died.
Once in heaven he has the opportunity to speak with god, "Lord, why didn't you save me?"
To which god responds, "You kidding me? I sent you an explorer, an archaeologist, and a soldier..."

Point being, if you see SE neglecting your melee side, maybe you're up to your ears in quicksand.

Happy Easter.

frost.. you kinda just described sch.. "a support mage. one that has nukes" see the problem here? sch has better healing abilities, better nukes, and now thanks to atmas, nearly as good staying power. they are admittedly weaker enfeeblers, and weaker melees.. BUT.. enfeebs are mitigated nowadays since every nm is immune to most enfeebs, and every non nm lives about 10-15 seconds. (sch buffing abilities are debateable, they CAN aeo phalanx/haste/stoneskin/enspell with the right sub.. i'd say that's a strong point in there favor, but rdm can to if it subs sch, so this one sorta ends up a wash.)

so that leaves us with melee... so, we're here talkin' about melee.

Because if SE though that Rdm melee should be abandoned completely they wouldn't have given us Composure and Enspell IIs. Mind you they weren't exactly implemented in the best ways but then again, that was a time when the majority of the player base though we were overpowered because we had the big 4 of healing, convert, refresh, haste, and cures.

Not to mention that 3 of those were originally added to help Rdm melee in the first place since Rdms kept running out of MP while meleeing since they couldn't rest, but were implemented poorly.

And while our healing was definitely overpowered during the ToA era and Rdm was pigeonholed into the healing role we certainly aren't in that spot anymore. The longevity that let us heal exclusively is now mostly subbable with the entire big 4 being available with /Rdm49 and Rdm healing is isn't even taken seriously anymore which is probably a good thing since every job will have Rdms healing power by 99 by just subbing the job.

So if we aren't allowed to melee where does that leave us? The white/black magic hybrid that uses them less effectively then sch? There's really only 2 ways that we could be different then Sch and SE has deemed BOTH of those ways as not correct.

We could enfeeble, but what good is being the master of enfeebling when everything worth enfeebling comes factory default immune? And anything else that we can enfeeble either dies too fast to matter or comes in so large of number other jobs out perform us just because they have AoE versions.

And if you say Enhancing then clearly YOU are the one not seeing SE's direction since 90% of our buffs are self target only. Really, the only exceptions are Protect and Shell (which have AoE versions we don't have), and Haste and Refresh (we do have more options with /sch but pretty much all of those options Sch/Rdm can use as well with way more charges then we have). How many does Whm have that can be used on the party, not even going to bother counting since it's way too many. Even Sch has been getting more buffs that can be used on the party, and what new enhancing spell did they happen to get...Regain...Yes, that's right, Scholar has received more melee buffs then Red Mage post 75 with their Regain spell and Occult Acumen (not like that one matters that much though due to staff switching, but it is still a melee buff none the less)

So If Sch is the job that can Heal/Nuke/and Enhance better then us (I'd give enhancing to them, they get mot of our enhancing spells with sub, plus more, like storm spells, and by 99 it'll be undebatable once they can /Rdm and get haste unless something else changes) where does that exactly leave us if we can't melee. The worthless enfeebling mage that is essentially only invited to Refresh II whore? We discuss ways to let Rdm melee because SE clearly DOESN'T have a direction for Rdm otherwise. I mean Shield Mastery?

The fact is RDM is a MELEE Mage, that means we can do both.. Not as good as the natural jobs can IE: We can't heal as well as a WHM, nuke as well as a BLM or DD as well as a WAR which was what RDM was a combination of..... However, when you can not DD better than a WHM, BRD or BLM there is something seriously wrong, no matter how much anyone wants to say that it's acceptable it is NOT.

What makes it even worse is those 3 jobs have better DD equipment than even RDM who is supposed to be able to wear Cloth and Light Armour (of which we have not really gotten since lvl. 50)

Not a jack of all trades anymore, give it up. Wanna be front line job level nin or mnk. Our mele is good enough to let us solo quickly with good multi-hit weapons, but they are never going to make us competitive with real DD. If they did what would be the point in playing anything else.

One question. What makes RDM more qualified to melee or be in the front lines than WHM or BRD? Sure SE calls RDM a hybrid but ignoring what SE says or RDM's past history in other FF games, what does RDM have that makes us potentially a front line job? B sword/Dagger skill? BRD has B skill in dagger too, whm has B in club but they don't complain about meleeing. RDM has enspells? Ok WHM has enlight with Auspice and BRD has minuets but they don't melee. The only melee mage in this game is BLU. RDM's specialty is a debuff/enhancing job that happens to get cure spells and nukes and a stunted rate. SE could have just given us debuffs and buffs only and made that our sole concentration. The cures and nukes we have are bare minimum meant to support main healers and main nukers. Leave the top tier nukes and heals to SCH and WHM since they're backline. I feel the only job qualified to get cure 5 next patch is SCH because they sacrifice melee ability for heightened magic whereas we technically have both. SCH has crap for melee capability so if anything they're more likely to get Cure 5 than us I feel only becuase they're a backline job.

Meleeing is a means to an end and RDM currently has none. BLU melees for TP to self SC. PLD melees to keep hate. RDM CAN melee but on major things we're talking about crappy damage. We can sub NIN but we lose Vorpal blade and have no native crit ws ourselves. The only way I see RDM being marketable as a DD is if they have Almace and a good DEX set, especially next Genkai which will probably have Gain-DEX. I've seen well equipped RDMs deal upwards of 2-3k Chant Du Cygnes in and outside Abyssea, really Almace is the way to go or at least the Badelaire+2.

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Originally Posted by Frost

Asking for a "Melee Update" is kind of a head scratcher, when you got so many better tools at your disposal, even to be the proverbial "DD" that you say is lacking. (I say that because you seem to forget "DD" stands for "Damage Dealer" and if you weren't a relevant "DD" then what do you call your Nukes?)

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So we should forget we're melee mages and just settle for playing BLM -1? I think not. Our swords are there for a reason, soloing and decoration are not it.

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One could argue (very accurately) what you guys ask for is for your job to be Blu. At which point I would say, just level Blu. It literally does EVERYTHING a Rdm typically wants Rdm to be when they aren't satisfied with how Rdm is.

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BLU wears pointy shoes and uses scimitars. I see no pimp hat or rapier on them. Next.

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You're one of the most vital jobs in the game, and you're irritated you're not more useful?

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Sleep and crowd control is more BLM territory. Healing has been WHM territory, the TAU merit parties of 4 DD, RDM healer and bard puller notwithstanding. Our sole value since CoP has been refresh, haste and heals. At the cost of our class becoming something rather unpleasant. I'm surprised you're trying to blame us for getting sick of it, really.

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Just because you don't play a certain way, doesn't mean that certain way doesn't doesn't exist. Changing your job too drastically can render other jobs obsolete. If the Rdm was a melee as well as healer, nuker and enfeebler, why invite anything else? Because everything else is still better? Then you're with the same problem before, no change. If you surpass an actual melee, you've removed them from the game. Make sense?

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I'm starting to get annoyed of this same tired attempt of an argument. To put it simply, it is quite possible and plausiuble to make a hybrid melee-capable in a way that balance is maintained and said melee role is widely accepted by other players. The scenario as it stands is not:

Party Leader: Ok so you're on RDM/<melee sub>.
RDM: Yeah, I'm geared for melee.
Party Leader: OK, I'll start looking for a healer.

And instead is:

Party Leader: You're on RDM/<melee sub>
RDM: Yeah, I'm geared for melee.
Party Leader: ROFL rdm isnt a dd. heal or gtfo.

Again, I wouldn't be a strong proponent of changes to make it happen had I not seen it work before. I know it can be done, and it's more a matter of the developers putting in the time to make it reality.

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no one is really seeking balance so much as they are seeking absolute dominance, and Rdms are especially guilty of that.

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I'll ask that you please stop accusing the melee camp of something we're NOT asking for. I know those outside the class or the bandwagon jumpers that signed up for the quick invites and gravy train to 75 and merits are happy with RDM spamming cures and refresh, but some of us have wanted more out of this job for years.

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One question. What makes RDM more qualified to melee or be in the front lines than WHM or BRD? Sure SE calls RDM a hybrid but ignoring what SE says or RDM's past history in other FF games, what does RDM have that makes us potentially a front line job? B sword/Dagger skill? BRD has B skill in dagger too, whm has B in club but they don't complain about meleeing. RDM has enspells? Ok WHM has enlight with Auspice and BRD has minuets but they don't melee. The only melee mage in this game is BLU. RDM's specialty is a debuff/enhancing job that happens to get cure spells and nukes and a stunted rate. SE could have just given us debuffs and buffs only and made that our sole concentration.

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Considering BLU as per FFXI was pulled out of the developers' collective arses, RDM has been the melee mage since FF1.

We're also way past the point where you can design classes to have singular purposes. Mezzing (AKA enfeebling) is too small a role to encompass a whole class. It worked in everquest because at the time the raids were of enough size where you could get away with it, but now it simply won't work (not to mention it'd make a class completely dull). It also does not comply with the trinity of tank, healer and dps.