Adding Charge system to summoner?

Well it hasn't been said yet on here in English forum but spotted this on JP, I'm sure its been considered elsewhere too...but what does everybody think about adding charges to Smn to enhance the job in that aspect?

Still keeping Range/Ward, but just simply adding charges to add more damage increases acc etc.

Source http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/3859

It won't work.

1. Everyone agrees it would be overpowering to use multiple 70+ rage pacts in a row.

2. A charge system would only allow you to use more low level pacts at start, then you are stuck waiting on the charge timer like it were a BP timer. Until you take a break of course.

What we need is more access to low level pacts period, while not allowing more high level pacts. The only reasonable solution to this is splitting timers further.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

It won't work.

1. Everyone agrees it would be overpowering to use multiple 70+ rage pacts in a row.

2. A charge system would only allow you to use more low level pacts at start, then you are stuck waiting on the charge timer like it were a BP timer. Until you take a break of course.

What we need is more access to low level pacts period, while not allowing more high level pacts. The only reasonable solution to this is splitting timers further.

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No offense but I think you just read the title of this tread and just said no, and assumed I wanted SMN to basically be the new SCH.

I will fine tune what I said with more detail and from what was stated on the JP Forum.

The following is an "addition" Blood Pact Rage/Ward will not be effect by this charge system. For the sake of balancing I don't care if it sounds broken or not its just to get the idea across.

The following will be a Job Ability for your pet or the summoner to use, for now we'll just say its a New Smn job ability.

Blood Partner - When using this ability it will allow access for the Smn to open a new pet command Blood Partner.

You will have three charges to use for the following effects to enhance your avatar.

New Pet Command: (Increase Blood Pact: Rage Damage)
New Pet Command: (Increase Blood Pact: Ward Potency)
New Pet Command: (Increase Prep Cost/Give avatar double attack or triple attack)
New Pet Command: (Increase Prep Cost/Give avatar -% Physical damage taken)

These are just example....so ya...Hope this clears up what I stated to begin with.

Oh ya I'm gonna "like" my own post

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No offense but I think you just read the title of this tread and just said no, and assumed I wanted SMN to basically be the new SCH.

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No offense taken. But your idea now sounds even less useful. If our wards lack potency, adding a JA raising it occasionally is just silly. That is like putting a band aid on a person shot by a rifle. You need to fix the problem, not add something that is occasionally negating it.

You'd do much better calling them stances as well, and let them remain 2 hours active. Increased BP:Ward potency for 2 hours would be a good deal. Improved BP:Ward potency for one pact would be terrible. (Unless it always was ready, and in that case it is better to make it a trait, and in that case it is better to make it a permanent update)

I very much like this idea.

*shrug* Again I don't think you read my first post...

-Was not my Idea
-And those were just details from the JP forum, and Like I said

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For the sake of balancing I don't care if it sounds broken or not its just to get the idea across.

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This could go along way for other way to power avatars besides getting gear. And Avatar favor is our stance already...so I don't really seeing them adding another...who knows....

I did read it. Just because it is a JP writing it doesn't make it a good idea. I simply gave you my experienced and professional opinion about it.

Everything has a time and place. This idea is a great one for WAR, as in you already have a perfect job and are looking at adding something gimmicky and fun. For SMN you need to address the issues at hand first. What meaning is it to get "half ward cost" JA when wards will only be cost efficient while using it? If you first made all wards great, then added this JA, it would be nice.

Fixes > New things

Going to have to agree with Malamasala, the only thing Summoner needs right now is adjustments to fix current issues with the job before considering adding such a system. Though this idea is nice, I don't think it's quite needed if SquareEnix can just fix the problems currently at hand.

Ya..In the end I'll agree, I don't see many voicing their OP on these fixes they would like. The fixes I've read on a few post don't seem to impact the job to balance/fix it. If we are talking about uses for low lvl blood pacts then I dunno....

Should probable change the thread then or start a new one. Because I've mentioned this in another thread but nobody really commented on it, but what are people really wanting for fixes with smn?

Some very good ideas have been posted by Azjazo in the "New SMN ability ideas" thread. Just going to Quote one of them for now.

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On the topic on the BP timers...

Mana Pact (stance)
Duration 2~3 min (depending on SMN skill)
Recast 5 min

Increases avatar Perp cost by 20%, bloodpact Cost by 20%
Reduces bloodpact recast timmer by 50%

The recast timmer reduction would stack on the -bp recast timmer gear so it can skip the 45 seconds cap, if you have gear that reduces normally to 45 seconds, then its 50% of those 45 seconds rounded down, 22 seconds bp recast time, with a penalitation of bp costing more, of course, you could cast bp while in the effect and have a bp cost 20% more then remove the stance by the time you are able to recast bp, so you can ditch 2 bp in less than 30 seconds spending 20% more MP on one pb and perp cost.

Not overpowered, has its downsise and adds strategy... if leving out avatar during all the stance, you could ditch in 4 bloodpacts in 2 minutes aprox. Doubliing the damage output but spending your mp pool like crazy, thus making gear that augment the activation rate of that trait forgot its name that reduces bp cost more desirable.

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Whoa there buddy! Fixes before new stuffs! lol

Wouldn't a charge system be something new? Just saying.. >.>

I don't see a Charge System working.

It would be a nice wet-dream, But its either going to be unrealistically over-powered (I.E Fire of 3 Heavenly Strikes back to back), or too complicated to be useful.

The current System is rather nice, We can BP every ~35/45 Seconds. Ward and Rage Separately. I want to suggest an Improvement, But I like our current system. ...


Wait, I got an Improvement. Reduce BP Delay to 30Sec with gear instead of 45.

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but what are people really wanting for fixes with smn?

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Quite a lot, but nothing big.

Spirits

1. A spirit spell cycle. Random first spell, then it flips between categories. I.e. either debuff -> nuke -> debuff -> nuke or nuke -> debuff -> nuke -> debuff. This means that every second spell cycle with spirits you are guaranteed to do damage. No silly frost -> frost -> frost cycles. The randomness of first spell is to avoid people from going summon -> nuke -> release -> summon -> nuke -> release. (Could always start with a debuff, but that would be worse than random)

2. Shorter casting timers. 20 seconds or so, so that within 40 seconds you would get a nuke guaranteed. Beats the hell out of the current system where it takes 50 seconds until you get a random spell. The only issue with this is how to work with skill shortening time and relic pants. I'd simply remove skill from effecting casting timers and instead just make it effect spell power and accuracy. In addition pants would be -5 sec instead of -10 as now (unless it already was 5 and I've assumed they were awesome for years)

3. Fix the bug that resets spell timers on assault/retreat. If PUP can attack with a pet without getting the full 25 seconds casting time reset, so should spirits.

Wards

Two paths to go.

A) All wards cost zero MP. Basically these are songs/rolls now, except no buff limit, there is a global recast limit and duration limit.

B) Wards all on separate timers. You COULD throw up a buffé of protection, but it would cost you insane amounts of MP.

2) Potency should scale with summoning magic based on level you got the ward. For example you get Nocturnal Shield at a level and it removes 15 damage. At higher skill it will move up to 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, keeping even track with phalanx potency. Hastega should be similar, with starting at 10, and at like level 90 it should give 20% haste.

3) Duration should be fixed at 5 min per ward.

Rages

1) Post level 50 pacts are fine now. Pre 50 pacts should all be in a separate category called BP:Ability and be on a 10 seconds recast timer. This would allow you to help skillchain with people or do small MBs or throw out blind/slow and similar debuffs.

Perpetuation

1) Perpetuation should be reasonable. Start off it will be HALF of the current system. Secondly you will get -1 perpetuation per party member you have (up to -5). BUT you will get +1 perpetuation for each Summoner in your alliance (up to +17). This means in a random pickup exp party you'll have about 0 perpetuation. In a pet HNM LS using 18 Summoners to kill, you'll have about 20 perpetuation. This system is fair in that the more you abuse hate free damage, the higher the cost.

Armor

1) Hybrid armor of all kinds. Mage + pet (exists), Melee + pet (is missing).

2) More DoT oriented pet bonuses. Like pet haste, pet melee DMG+, pet DA.



I think I covered the basics as usual. Incentive and chances to use our whole list of abilities and spells. And it being possible to play Summoner as Summoner from level 1 to 90, without feeling that perpetuation is stopping you, or that casting a cure is the only thing you can do between recasts.

hope they add New and Stronger Avatres and 1's that r not 2hr. and there r alot of spell out tere we need that they can use to

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Originally Posted by Jonesy

hope they add New and Stronger Avatres and 1's that r not 2hr. and there r alot of spell out tere we need that they can use to

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REALLY!? You've gotta be kidding me, sorry dude wrong thread for that.

Back to the thread....To me it seem if wards are buffed and get close to being more potent to another job that can do that, just seems it would a balance issue to step on other jobs toes.

SE for some reason has a really good job at doing that with summoner. It's just so hard to say considering game play has changed when in Abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

Back to the thread....To me it seem if wards are buffed and get close to being more potent to another job that can do that, just seems it would a balance issue to step on other jobs toes.

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But isn't what you just said there what sch did to smn in the first place. Buff-ga's was our domain, that which made us valuable to groups, now sch took that away from us, SE should really give it back with longer durations or allowing summoners to "break" the cap of these spells.

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Originally Posted by Secondplanet

But isn't what you just said there what sch did to smn in the first place. Buff-ga's was our domain, that which made us valuable to groups, now sch took that away from us, SE should really give it back with longer durations or allowing summoners to "break" the cap of these spells.

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What, stronger and 5-min longer lasting Stoneskin and Haste not good enough for you?

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Originally Posted by Secondplanet

But isn't what you just said there what sch did to smn in the first place. Buff-ga's was our domain, that which made us valuable to groups, now sch took that away from us, SE should really give it back with longer durations or allowing summoners to "break" the cap of these spells.

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Smn was already a somewhat mimic to other jobs then sch took over I didn't care for that because I wanted summoner to be unique to its job not cast everything else another job can. So it did what I said from a certain point of view.

Of course we all know Smn main thing is to deal damage, along with all other FF games, Buffing is now just icing on the cake.

Smn BP:Wards are like to be fillers in food, sometimes good but not always gonna eat it.

Last...everybody wants all these fixes for Wards but I don't see it happening to the ex-stream only because of what I said Smn should be made to either be a DD or support not both, the job is so universal with what smn can do, people see the weaker end as a needed fix. Granted that due to what the Linkshell might want you for on summoner might just be your lucky day.

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

what I said Smn should be made to either be a DD or support not both

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

the job is so universal with what smn can do

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Wait, what are you trying to say? You don't want SMN to be both a DD and Support Job but its ok to be universal?

By the way, what is wrong with being both? Avatars can put out some mean damage and tank for a little while, or put up some nice buffs and help keep the party going for a while. It can even do both at the same time. What is wrong with that situation we are in?

Besides, last I checked, Garuda is still the only thing that can cast AoE Haste.

I say screw the blood pacts all together. Just let us use each skill individually with their own individual cooldown based on the ability's effectiveness. I'd only be against this charge system because all it allows is for greater spike damage and not consistent damage, which I believe is what's needed. And you can't have consistent damage when all of your abilities are on the same cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

Wait, what are you trying to say? You don't want SMN to be both a DD and Support Job but its ok to be universal?

By the way, what is wrong with being both? Avatars can put out some mean damage and tank for a little while, or put up some nice buffs and help keep the party going for a while. It can even do both at the same time. What is wrong with that situation we are in?

Besides, last I checked, Garuda is still the only thing that can cast AoE Haste.

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I stated this only from certain point of view, I know we are universal and will always be universal...I understand we have hastega always have since smn first came out.

When I made this post I was interested in the idea of a JA that could effect both Rage/Ward hence making our wards a bit more portent but of course wont be as good as other jobs buffs etc.

In the end we will always have Wards that mimic other jobs, minus "hastega" the potency is not up to par with other jobs that can do them as well. however its nice to have these at our disposable. Use wards if you want to I do, and I'm not telling you not to...This is just how I feel a summoners stand atm.

And very last would be nice to have a very unique buff/ward that is a bit different from other jobs one that could stand out more than your normal aoe cure/MAB/something that does not rely on the moon..etc.

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

When I made this post I was interested in the idea of a JA that could effect both Rage/Ward hence making our wards a bit more portent but of course wont be as good as other jobs buffs etc.

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I don't understand. Our Stoneskins are stronger than most WHM's stoneskins, last longer, and don't use up as much MP. And recasting it doesn't require us to wait 2 minutes (2 charges for WHM/SCH) to recast.

Our Blinks are more powerful than the standard Blink. Phalanx is about the same as Phalanx II, our Haste gives the same amount of Haste, but for 5 minutes longer than a WHM, RDM (casting on others), or a SCH can give, and we have access to other buffs, like Movement Speed+, Evasion/Accuracy Up, and....whatever you want to call "Earthen Armor" ability. Would that be "deathly damage" or "trying to stay alive in case of a blowup" type of ability?

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

In the end we will always have Wards that mimic other jobs, minus "hastega" the potency is not up to par with other jobs that can do them as well. however its nice to have these at our disposable. Use wards if you want to I do, and I'm not telling you not to...This is just how I feel a summoners stand atm.

And very last would be nice to have a very unique buff/ward that is a bit different from other jobs one that could stand out more than your normal aoe cure/MAB/something that does not rely on the moon..etc.

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Wards are just one half of the Avatar spectrum. Besides, we still have Ramuh's Blood Pact: Ward new ability to get at 91. Lets see what we will be getting. Here's hoping to Crit hit rate (or damage) up for 180 seconds initially (same timer as Haste for us now).

So now when your talking about charges are you talking about the idea of the thread charges or the actual SCH charges in the game as of now?

Also I've yet to see somebody really survive from a deadly attack, I've asked constantly in my ls if they even notice it as a tank...and sadly nobody has or it just goes by un-noticed, which sadly I think i stated in another thread that I enjoyed Diamond storm.

However I think SE is heading in the right direction with these newer Wards, but I just don't think the wards as of now can meet up to their expectations to be counted as a "I'm counting on you to get the job done." Oh shit somebody died and it was my fault.

What I'm trying to say is everything may sound good on paper but its just not practical with whats used in game play today that I see. I'd like to see more unique ways for Wards.

Before I forget, this is very similar to the Spirit thread in general section...Spirits should not be more powerful than BP Rage as you said0. With that....its almost the same concept really.

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Originally Posted by Soundwave

So now when your talking about charges are you talking about the idea of the thread charges or the actual SCH charges in the game as of now?

Also I've yet to see somebody really survive from a deadly attack, I've asked constantly in my ls if they even notice it as a tank...and sadly nobody has or it just goes by un-noticed, which sadly I think i stated in another thread that I enjoyed Diamond storm.

However I think SE is heading in the right direction with these newer Wards, but I just don't think the wards as of now can meet up to their expectations to be counted as a "I'm counting on you to get the job done." Oh shit somebody died and it was my fault.

What I'm trying to say is everything may sound good on paper but its just not practical with whats used in game play today that I see. I'd like to see more unique ways for Wards.

Before I forget, this is very similar to the Spirit thread in general section...Spirits should not be more powerful than BP Rage as you said0. With that....its almost the same concept really.

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1) I'm talking about SCH charges. I'm using examples of a system already in place.

2) I have saved my party a couple of times by using Earthen Armor when we fight stuff that has a very bad AoE damage (Spike Flail once) or explodes (NIN NM mobs).

3) Things happen, you can't predict the future and adjust for it. You can, however, anticipate and plan for it.

4) I don't think many more avatars will be getting more BP:W soon. Ramuh, Carbuncle, Diabolos, and Fenrir are the only avatars I can still see getting BP:W still. All the celestial avatars will be getting a new BP:R soon (probably merit v2) but I don't anticipate anything more than what we have already.

5) Spirits can be used to proc yellow, in that thread I'm theorizing the usage of the spirits to give SMNs more usefulness for procing yellow.

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Originally Posted by Korpg

1) I'm talking about SCH charges. I'm using examples of a system already in place.

2) I have saved my party a couple of times by using Earthen Armor when we fight stuff that has a very bad AoE damage (Spike Flail once) or explodes (NIN NM mobs).

3) Things happen, you can't predict the future and adjust for it. You can, however, anticipate and plan for it.

4) I don't think many more avatars will be getting more BP:W soon. Ramuh, Carbuncle, Diabolos, and Fenrir are the only avatars I can still see getting BP:W still. All the celestial avatars will be getting a new BP:R soon (probably merit v2) but I don't anticipate anything more than what we have already.

5) Spirits can be used to proc yellow, in that thread I'm theorizing the usage of the spirits to give SMNs more usefulness for procing yellow.

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1.) I understand, I stated that this was not exactly like SCH so I think a few people heard the word charges and just thought exactly like SCH.

2.) We'll this can go so many ways because I'm sure your ls fights the mobs differently I do etc. So I'm gonna leave it at that.

3.) We are universal, so when we are in a party and we are being universal between Rage/Ward, and your party gets busted by nasty AoE, and your in the middle of your Rage...so now you gotta re-summon an avatar carby/Lev, and hope everybody is around you for a cure, unless you plan on cure bombing people to full health by that time I smell another AoE. I feel there is no right answer here but just all debatable in how the battle goes. Like you said you can't predict the future.

4.) I don't disagree however if that's the case they better raise the cap on M2 to 15or20.

5.)I've used my spirits to try to proc yellow a few times and successful but just not practical...however it would be nice to be able to command them yourself.

I just want to point out that "support" is a very general word. You can be "support heal", "support debuff", "suppert sleep", "support offense", "support defense". So SMN excelling in one of these, wouldn't hurt any of those excelling in the others. (Most likely we would be best at defensive wards, while BRD and COR will be better at offensive songs/rolls). Of course in this situation it just because a question if we are stealing SCH buff role, or if they took ours to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

I just want to point out that "support" is a very general word. You can be "support heal", "support debuff", "suppert sleep", "support offense", "support defense". So SMN excelling in one of these, wouldn't hurt any of those excelling in the others. (Most likely we would be best at defensive wards, while BRD and COR will be better at offensive songs/rolls). Of course in this situation it just because a question if we are stealing SCH buff role, or if they took ours to begin with.

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I've always felt as a support defense type summoner, my thought was to help keep your melee alive, so they could deal damage...this was pre-Abyssea....prime example was Einherjar.

Brain hurts from reading this thread. If anything they should lower BP delay.

Someone have information on the new formula for Earthen Ward/Noctoshield? I've only heard it got updated, and Wiki hasn't been updated since 75 of course.

Also, agreed with Heni and in addition perpetuation cost should be lowered.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

It won't work.

1. Everyone agrees it would be overpowering to use multiple 70+ rage pacts in a row.

2. A charge system would only allow you to use more low level pacts at start, then you are stuck waiting on the charge timer like it were a BP timer. Until you take a break of course.

What we need is more access to low level pacts period, while not allowing more high level pacts. The only reasonable solution to this is splitting timers further.

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1. I call bs :3 Think of how much mana we'd blow in a few secs..what.. nearly 8mp short of 500mp so it has it's built in penalties and broken is rng/sam with jishnu (need a good c5 team)

2. If it's optional then it's use is up to the player.

Another thing they should do is add Bloodpact: Elements and lower the timer down to :35 or :30 since we get all this mp to use and we can use it every 4 melee wses.

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Someone have information on the new formula for Earthen Ward/Noctoshield? I've only heard it got updated, and Wiki hasn't been updated since 75 of course.

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Haven't heard anything about this. I've still assumed the old formula is at works. What was it again? levelx2+50 or so? Also Ncotoshield has always been static -15. I'd be thrilled to hear it be changed, but that is like expecting SE to secretly buff all wards one at a time without update notes.

Earthen Ward has the same formula, it absorbs 230 dmg at 90.
Noctoshield absorbs 13 dmg at 75 and still absorbs 13 dmg at 90.

Some Wards have been been buffed like Glittering Ruby and Ultimate Terror which gives/absorbs more points per stats (around 21 now) but that's pretty much all.