The allowed distance between BST and pet for moves is ridiculous low now.

When i did level Beastmaster while charming was still up to date, i never had a problem with fighting and using pets tp moves. I had fun, even when i did eat dust.
But now since i try to master Beastmaster i was too far away to use Jug pets tp moves while me, the mob and my pet was building a 90° triangle. And that was no distance at all. Even if me, the mob and my pet would build a line, using Jug pets tp moves should be no problem at all. I don't know what SE was thinking about doing this. To limit the option to use jug pets tp moves to a "stand side by side/cheek to cheek" distance can't be justified by anything. That kills the free choice of positioning yourself, as long as the monster is in hitting range.
Sorry, but i have no other choice but to ask SE to allow all bst commands, as long as me, the monster and my pet is in hitting range to the mob. No matter if its 90°, or less in my case, a triangle or a line of me, the mob and my pet... .

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Originally Posted by Nyclia

When i did level Beastmaster while charming was still up to date, i never had a problem with fighting and using pets tp moves. I had fun, even when i did eat dust.
But now since i try to master Beastmaster i was too far away to use Jug pets tp moves while me, the mob and my pet was building a 90° triangle. And that was no distance at all. Even if me, the mob and my pet would build a line, using Jug pets tp moves should be no problem at all. I don't know what SE was thinking about doing this. To limit the option to use jug pets tp moves to a "stand side by side/cheek to cheek" distance can't be justified by anything. That kills the free choice of positioning yourself, as long as the monster is in hitting range.
Sorry, but i have no other choice but to ask SE to allow all bst commands, as long as me, the monster and my pet is in hitting range to the mob. No matter if its 90°, or less in my case, a triangle or a line of me, the mob and my pet... .

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They won't do it, since they purposely nerfed everything your asking for, bst used to be the pimped job, however they nerfed because of the rare power it has if used right, its pretty much the AC smn in what people loved/hated.

As far as it goes, you gotta be 7-10' of the pet (Depending on which pet you have) or its a no go

From what I gather, the idea of the nerf was because the Beastmaster was originally designed to be fighting alongside their pet. I can understand that concept.

The problem is that you can be fighting the monster alongside your pet and you STILL get 'out of range' messages when trying to use a ready/reward move. This is especially true when fighting larger monsters.

So, In my opinion, I think the range should be altered to compensate for that issue.

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Originally Posted by Sirmarki

From what I gather, the idea of the nerf was because the Beastmaster was originally designed to be fighting alongside their pet. I can understand that concept.

The problem is that you can be fighting the monster alongside your pet and you STILL get 'out of range' messages when trying to use a ready/reward move. This is especially true when fighting larger monsters.

So, In my opinion, I think the range should be altered to compensate for that issue.

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Not "designed", but "intended". The design allowed for long range play for ~12-13 years. They still haven't changed the stat budget on BST gear to allow for both player/pet to be viable in combat simultaneously, or added any JA/JT support for master melee, or given us any actual incentive to follow their gameplan.

The range nerf was a kneejerk reaction to complaints about BST being OP compared to other jobs. The statements about what their intentions for how BST should be played were excuses to justify a job change this large. IMO, the response did nothing to address the issues complained about other than make it annoying enough to play BST that most of the bandwagoners dropped out. Everyone else has caught up (or surpassed) BST at this point though, so it's about time that the nerf is at least partially reversed. A hard 10y range (adjusted for player model size) should be enough to at least allow us to melee 90' from our pet on midsize/large targets, and shouldn't cause any negative issues.

Did you know that the current range for Tarutaru vs Galka varies by ~.2y due to the size of player models? That's enough to allow a Galka to be outside of an AOE range while the Taru is inside of it. Pretty sure that the racial imbalance was always there, but it was exacerbated by the drastic range reduction.

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Originally Posted by Selindrile

Bst have frequently been not meleeing with their pets for years and years, anyone remember that everyone's favorite XP target for bst for ages was bombs because they blew themselves up? They certainly didn't melee on those. This change is tantamount to redefining the job, even if that wasn't it's original design, it's not like not-meleeing on bst is anything new.

Remember when the devs said ninjas weren't supposed to be tanks, but then the community tanked with NIN, then the devs released tanking gear for NIN? Yeah, that was cool, I mean, the devs have claimed to be asking for feedback, isn't deciding to play it as a backline job an example of feedback? I mean why bother claiming to ask for feedback if you're going to do the opposite of what the players obviously want?

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I said this at the time they nerfed it, and I'll say it again.

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Originally Posted by Selindrile

I said this at the time they nerfed it, and I'll say it again.

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This is 100% accurate. If they wanted BST to Melee with their pets, then there should be more tools to allow them to do so via Gear and a re-envisioning of BST's JA/JT. In the beginning, BST used to use Scythes just as much as Axes, so it always bothered me that they got the Fencer trait when there was no Shield to off-hand for BST to make it worthwhile. Not to mention their shield skill is awful. Even more confusing, why they were the only job that has a 'Circle' ability that wasn't learned by leveling like the other jobs and stuck behind merits. We've offered tons of ideas to the Devs on things that could help make BST better and put it on the road for playing as "intended", but if you're going to ignore it then...

A while ago I posted these, not perfect but still something to toy around with:

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Originally Posted by Zeargi

BST needs to get the following JT:
Accuracy Bonus III: 30, 50, 75
Max HP Boost IV: 35, 55, 75, 95
Shield Defense Bonus: 85

The Job Trait: Beast Healer needs to change to include: Copies 1 status enhancing effect per rank in merits to Pet When Using Reward

Job Ability that needs to be Add:

Empathy's Bond: Decreases DMG Taken By Master and Increases Accuracy for Pet and Master the closer they are together
Level: 90
Recast: 3m
Effect Time: 45s~1m

And 2 or more Shields designed for BST EXCLUSIVELY need to be added. They also need to change BST Shield ranks from E to C.

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I can totally accept that i shall fight alongside my pet.
But i EXPECT to be able run around the mob, while i am in hitting range and STILL be able to use my pets abilities! If that is not possible, it's TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE!

What would PUP do, if he couldnt move the mob from it's puppet?
How should my DRGs Wyvern heal me in any situation with such a tiny range? Even if DRG can't be considered as "overpowered". Where is the fairness if you compared these jobs?

Or what with SMN? Their defense shouldn't allow to fight so close to the mob. They would be killed in a few hits. And look at their possible damage. I have seen about 36k dmg on the final boss of Rhapsody of Vanadiel with Ifrit. But it's fair to nerf BST that way... .

How about to do the same to them as you did to BST SE? If you look so much on overpowered pet jobs.

P.S.: Yes, i remember the time as charming BST. It was the best time i had on it, because i could lvl on my own pace. It was great, even if i did eat dust alot of times. And i really mean alot. I soloed BST to 96, until i found no more book camps that made it worthwhile. But then SE decides to boost jug pet BSTs and i had to get used to it. Ok~. Now they nerf BST like this, after i accepted that the charming BST seemed to be no longer wanted.
God damn it SE. Please don't put so many stones in my way on a job i loved to solo, only because other player overdid it! They should work on their social abilities and common sense not to overdo it and make you nerf the job to the current situation. >.<

Nyclia has my full support. The nerf was ridiculous - completely altering a key job mechanic in an attempt to "restore job balance" is a sledgehammer approach that should never have even been considered, let alone implemented. The fact that it's broken as well makes it inexcusable.

one main issue is, if they increase the distance, theres a high likely hood that they'll increase the recast of charges along with reducing the maximum capacity much like they did with cor's quick draw

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Originally Posted by Songen

one main issue is, if they increase the distance, theres a high likely hood that they'll increase the recast of charges along with reducing the maximum capacity much like they did with cor's quick draw

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No, that is not likely in any way. Reducing Ready charges would also require reworking many jugs, and extra work tends to pull the "that would cost a version update" response they've been using recently. If they required a downside, then it would likely be a direct nerf to ready move damage. I'm pretty sure that they don't want to do that since if they felt that damage output was actually out of whack, they would have done that instead of the JA range nerf. We may have shorter Ready recast than SMN BPs, but over time (even just 3-5min,) SMN actually outpaces us in comparable gear. (It's been like this even before the nerf btw.) At this point, nearly every other job has caught up to BST in damage output anyways, so any sort of damage nerf would be extremely uncalled for anyway.

I believe that they should simply increase the range slightly from the current ~6' to 9' or 10', with built-in adjustments to ensure racial parity. We don't really NEED a full reversion, but the current state simply sucks, so I'm willing to compromise. ^^

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

No, that is not likely in any way. Reducing Ready charges would also require reworking many jugs, and extra work tends to pull the "that would cost a version update" response they've been using recently. If they required a downside, then it would likely be a direct nerf to ready move damage. I'm pretty sure that they don't want to do that since if they felt that damage output was actually out of whack, they would have done that instead of the JA range nerf. We may have shorter Ready recast than SMN BPs, but over time (even just 3-5min,) SMN actually outpaces us in comparable gear. (It's been like this even before the nerf btw.) At this point, nearly every other job has caught up to BST in damage output anyways, so any sort of damage nerf would be extremely uncalled for anyway.

I believe that they should simply increase the range slightly from the current ~6' to 9' or 10', with built-in adjustments to ensure racial parity. We don't really NEED a full reversion, but the current state simply sucks, so I'm willing to compromise. ^^

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Not likely in anyway? what do you mean? considering it wouldn't be the first time they readjusted the timers for bst, i don't see how its not a possibility, not to mention the ready ability is a ability. they already mentioned they don't want to touch pet abilitys so as a balance formula, seems a likely addition they'd do if you want a distance ability

Nyarlko explained their meaning pretty clearly and logically, but if you really don't understand, they're saying if they adjusted max charges/charge costs it would require a lot of work and changes, however they could adjust recast only, but again, as Nyarlko stated, that would seem silly in that Bst's damage isn't what it was, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Songen

Not likely in anyway? what do you mean? considering it wouldn't be the first time they readjusted the timers for bst, i don't see how its not a possibility, not to mention the ready ability is a ability. they already mentioned they don't want to touch pet abilitys so as a balance formula, seems a likely addition they'd do if you want a distance ability

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"Reducing the maximum capacity" is simply not going to happen. As I said, that would require reworking all jug pets w/ 3x charge abilities and that would push it into the "too much work to bother with" category. And as far as I know, recast time has not been touched since being added, but wasn't around at that time so can't say for sure. Regardless, even with the current minimum recast of 10sec per charge, just about any high-end geared DD should be able to outperform us over time when excluding SPs. Last I checked, pets are pretty much capped to ~30k max per ready move, and I know DDs who can do more dmg per WS plus build TP faster than 10sec. Heck, one of the CORs in my ls just hit 3-shot (1-shot w/ Triple Shot proc).

In other words, BST is far from being top of the charts already and I sincerely doubt that they would do another major playstyle nerf in order to recover slightly from the last one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

"Reducing the maximum capacity" is simply not going to happen. As I said, that would require reworking all jug pets w/ 3x charge abilities and that would push it into the "too much work to bother with" category. And as far as I know, recast time has not been touched since being added, but wasn't around at that time so can't say for sure. Regardless, even with the current minimum recast of 10sec per charge, just about any high-end geared DD should be able to outperform us over time when excluding SPs. Last I checked, pets are pretty much capped to ~30k max per ready move, and I know DDs who can do more dmg per WS plus build TP faster than 10sec. Heck, one of the CORs in my ls just hit 3-shot (1-shot w/ Triple Shot proc).

In other words, BST is far from being top of the charts already and I sincerely doubt that they would do another major playstyle nerf in order to recover slightly from the last one.

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i was around for when ready was not a ability, and while i didn't take it to lvl 75, i did level it a fair ways up solo and in partys, i soloed major NMs on bst in places like phomina aquaducts,sacrarium and pso,Xja, beastmaster was one of my first jobs (Literally, since it was my first job i unlocked not because it seemed easy at the time to unlock but it seemed fun to beable to charm pets).i was also one of the first bsts to test the screwed up charm system after ilvl was implemented, when band wagon bst started in adoulin my bst was already half ready, while my bst isn't 100% gear atm since i'v been working on my over all job set, i stilll have a fair share still contributing towards it working well ~After all i said what i am saying is, don't think i don't know beastmaster, i may not be the best but i have seen the mechanics better than some of the best~

and as for them having to adjust every pet ability for 1 job ability, i believe you are the one being delusional in terms of encoding. ready ability is encoded for itself and is simply activation switch for the pet abilitys, the pet abilitys remain the same (All stats are attached to the pet ability, not the ready ability, all enhancements bound to the ready ability thru job points etc enhances either before or after the pet ability is activated and this isn't a effect bound to the ready ability recast), if i said all pet pet abilitys needed a damage/acc/potency/etc increase/decrease then yes, its a massive amount of work since each pet ability's value is different, however, when you select ready (Which is its own ability in the encoding) it simply directs another pet ability to activate or not and attaches a enhancement or not (Which is already encoded and wouldn't need to be adjusted) (The mechanics of each pet ability is its own, just as the ready ability is its own).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Songen

i was around for when ready was not a ability, and while i didn't take it to lvl 75, i did level it a fair ways up solo and in partys, i soloed major NMs on bst in places like phomina aquaducts,sacrarium and pso,Xja, beastmaster was one of my first jobs (Literally, since it was my first job i unlocked not because it seemed easy at the time to unlock but it seemed fun to beable to charm pets).i was also one of the first bsts to test the screwed up charm system after ilvl was implemented, when band wagon bst started in adoulin my bst was already half ready, while my bst isn't 100% gear atm since i'v been working on my over all job set, i stilll have a fair share still contributing towards it working well ~After all i said what i am saying is, don't think i don't know beastmaster, i may not be the best but i have seen the mechanics better than some of the best~

and as for them having to adjust every pet ability for 1 job ability, i believe you are the one being delusional in terms of encoding. ready ability is encoded for itself and is simply activation switch for the pet abilitys, the pet abilitys remain the same (All stats are attached to the pet ability, not the ready ability, all enhancements bound to the ready ability thru job points etc enhances either before or after the pet ability is activated and this isn't a effect bound to the ready ability recast), if i said all pet pet abilitys needed a damage/acc/potency/etc increase/decrease then yes, its a massive amount of work since each pet ability's value is different, however, when you select ready (Which is its own ability in the encoding) it simply directs another pet ability to activate or not and attaches a enhancement or not (Which is already encoded and wouldn't need to be adjusted) (The mechanics of each pet ability is its own, just as the ready ability is its own).

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Precisely how would you expect 3-charge abilities to be usable if number of charges were reduced below the current three? :3

It's unlikely that values such as the ready charge cost is programmed in as part of the Ready JA itself. (It's also always risky to argue anything on the basis of unknown programming/code. It's not like any of the server code can be examined by us.) Doing so would mean that the JA itself would have to be altered each and every time they added a jug, and that would fall under the category of dangerous/easily-broken code. I am fully aware that we're dealing with 15 year old mountain of stratified spaghetti, but any professional programmer would immediately recognize the risks and inherent increased difficulty in maintaining and updating that type of code and find another option. All of that means that any adjustment to Ready charge quantity would require rebuilding every jug that has a 3-charge ability. I'm pretty sure that, from the devs' recent statements, something like this would fall under the "too much work, cost an update" response they've been using.

Increasing the recast timer would be a significant damage nerf, which BST definitely does NOT need. We're already middle-of-the-pack at the highest end, what would be a possible justification to drop us lower? A mere 5sec increase would result in a 33% damage loss. (10sec charges = 6x per minute, 15sec charges = 4x per minute. Before anyone argues that value.) Even a single second would result in ~9% lost. This is absolutely NOT a valid "knob" to turn for adjustments.

I am honestly rather surprised how hard you are defending a potential nerf in a thread asking for at least partially undoing the BST JA range nerf of '15. ^^;; I could somewhat understand expecting a balancing nerf to accompany it if everyone here were calling for a full reversal (which I don't think that anyone has so far,) but there should be no legitimate balance concerns over a partial reversal that increases the range only to the point where we can actually do what the devs want us to do and melee alongside our pets.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

Precisely how would you expect 3-charge abilities to be usable if number of charges were reduced below the current three? :3

It's unlikely that values such as the ready charge cost is programmed in as part of the Ready JA itself. (It's also always risky to argue anything on the basis of unknown programming/code. It's not like any of the server code can be examined by us.) Doing so would mean that the JA itself would have to be altered each and every time they added a jug, and that would fall under the category of dangerous/easily-broken code. I am fully aware that we're dealing with 15 year old mountain of stratified spaghetti, but any professional programmer would immediately recognize the risks and inherent increased difficulty in maintaining and updating that type of code and find another option. All of that means that any adjustment to Ready charge quantity would require rebuilding every jug that has a 3-charge ability. I'm pretty sure that, from the devs' recent statements, something like this would fall under the "too much work, cost an update" response they've been using.

Increasing the recast timer would be a significant damage nerf, which BST definitely does NOT need. We're already middle-of-the-pack at the highest end, what would be a possible justification to drop us lower? A mere 5sec increase would result in a 33% damage loss. (10sec charges = 6x per minute, 15sec charges = 4x per minute. Before anyone argues that value.) Even a single second would result in ~9% lost. This is absolutely NOT a valid "knob" to turn for adjustments.

I am honestly rather surprised how hard you are defending a potential nerf in a thread asking for at least partially undoing the BST JA range nerf of '15. ^^;; I could somewhat understand expecting a balancing nerf to accompany it if everyone here were calling for a full reversal (which I don't think that anyone has so far,) but there should be no legitimate balance concerns over a partial reversal that increases the range only to the point where we can actually do what the devs want us to do and melee alongside our pets.

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If you are asking if i want to have bst nerfed, as a 11year bst vetern, THE ANSWER IS NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't F--king touch it, and anyone of you F*** heads (And that includes you nyariko for thinking it) who are trying to nerf it further are total Sh*t heads for even thinking of thinking it.

Now then, if you payed attention to post in question that i wrote

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Songen

one main issue is, if they increase the distance, theres a high likely hood that they'll increase the recast of charges along with reducing the maximum capacity much like they did with cor's quick draw

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You would have noticed i was explaining that since its already nerfed from what it was before, in order to unnerf it they would have to come to what SE refers to a balance (And odviously since they nerfed bst by reducing the distance to use the ability, they would likely try to balance it in their own crazy way as they always do), A likely hood (not that it would actually happen as i have stated) is they would nerf either the max charges or the recast value or perhaps both altogether in w/e sick perception is their sence of balance

I WAS defending is the fact you were saying (Worded in such a way that you were saying) that is impossible to actually change the recast timer and quantity for the ready ability with the current dev team size. it is not impossible even with the current team, its patch is probably quite simple and you don't need to be a programing genious to see it since you change the max/minimum values of certain numbers for the ready ability directly. it requires as much work as most other abilitys since ready is mainly a activation key for pet abilitys (It unlocks the door, it is not THE door)

I honestly would prefer a longer distance to beable to use ready, not only that, i want charm to work efficiently again, and i want sic to actually do something useful and not have such a long recast, and i want my pets to actually have magic dmg rather than some quint of p#ss that comes would as magic dmg, and i want my pets enfeeble magic to actually land, however thats another story

Fix the problem, i don't mind, However keep in mind tho.
FOR GODS SAKE DON'T F##k IT UP in the process,
plz, as a vet bst and as someone who doesn't want the job to die in the process because of people being unable to adapt

Songen, you need to chill. :x There is no need for personal attacks or expletives, especially since we should be on basically the same "Fix BST" team. ^^;;

I am in no way in support of any further nerf of any kind to BST. None of my posts here, or anywhere else, have ever been in support of nerfs. I don't think that anyone else in this thread is either, other than how you alone appear to be demanding a "balance" nerf in order to get what we want.

My stance is that if the increase was on the minor side (to 9'-10') then there would be absolutely no need for any downside to be included. I get that they don't want us way <Over there.> so a full restoration is pretty clearly out of the question at this point. I could kinda understand if there was a downside/cost built-in to a proposed full-restore to JA range, but even then, I would argue against it. Nerfs are bad and should only be used similar to bug fixes.

The only dev team related issue that I brought up is that they have been replying to some suggestions recently in the basic form of "Nope. That would take as much work as # monthly updates, so we have no plans..." I don't know myself (since I am not working on the dev team) whether that is due to lack of staff/man-hours, complexity of coding involved, or lack of interest on their part, but it doesn't really matter "why". The general impression I've gotten from the devs recently is that if something new would require a lot of work to accomplish, it's just not gonna happen at this point.

Your idea that they would target recast or number of charges is simply not viable for the reasons I've already explained. Going after number of charges would result in lots of extra work to change every jug pet with a 3-charge move, and recast increases would be massive nerfs to damage output. Both of your "solutions" would create much bigger problems than the current annoying short-range state.

Also, unless you have direct access to the source code and fully KNOW precisely how it operates, it's not a good idea to insist that the coding works a certain way when we players have no way to verify one way or the other. When I do, I try to keep it within the realm of what's logically the best solution, and try to avoid absolute statements on stuff that isn't player testable/verifiable. Feel free to call me out if/when I fail to do so. XD

BTW, my BST is job master, endgame geared and I still enjoy the job even with the painfully small JA range. ^^;; However, I think that BST may be the only job that has actual gameplay mechanics that result in racial inequalities. A small increase to our JA range which includes racial modifiers to force player model size parity would essentially be a welcome BUG FIX and far from something that should require nerf-strings attached. A Galka at max range's JA will go off, while a Tarutaru standing in the same spot will not. That needs to be fixed and without any strings attached.

Staying out of the logic of why the adjustment happened to begin with, I'd say the master simply being in melee range should be enough. To avoid the "Out of Range" aspect if the pet is behind you or whatever, just force a quick move and possibly implement a bit of wiggle room for their skill ranges in the event the mob does move (or is forced to do so by the pet moving in range).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

Songen, you need to chill. :x There is no need for personal attacks or expletives, especially since we should be on basically the same "Fix BST" team. ^^;;

I am in no way in support of any further nerf of any kind to BST. None of my posts here, or anywhere else, have ever been in support of nerfs. I don't think that anyone else in this thread is either, other than how you alone appear to be demanding a "balance" nerf in order to get what we want.

My stance is that if the increase was on the minor side (to 9'-10') then there would be absolutely no need for any downside to be included. I get that they don't want us way <Over there.> so a full restoration is pretty clearly out of the question at this point. I could kinda understand if there was a downside/cost built-in to a proposed full-restore to JA range, but even then, I would argue against it. Nerfs are bad and should only be used similar to bug fixes.

The only dev team related issue that I brought up is that they have been replying to some suggestions recently in the basic form of "Nope. That would take as much work as # monthly updates, so we have no plans..." I don't know myself (since I am not working on the dev team) whether that is due to lack of staff/man-hours, complexity of coding involved, or lack of interest on their part, but it doesn't really matter "why". The general impression I've gotten from the devs recently is that if something new would require a lot of work to accomplish, it's just not gonna happen at this point.

Your idea that they would target recast or number of charges is simply not viable for the reasons I've already explained. Going after number of charges would result in lots of extra work to change every jug pet with a 3-charge move, and recast increases would be massive nerfs to damage output. Both of your "solutions" would create much bigger problems than the current annoying short-range state.

Also, unless you have direct access to the source code and fully KNOW precisely how it operates, it's not a good idea to insist that the coding works a certain way when we players have no way to verify one way or the other. When I do, I try to keep it within the realm of what's logically the best solution, and try to avoid absolute statements on stuff that isn't player testable/verifiable. Feel free to call me out if/when I fail to do so. XD

BTW, my BST is job master, endgame geared and I still enjoy the job even with the painfully small JA range. ^^;; However, I think that BST may be the only job that has actual gameplay mechanics that result in racial inequalities. A small increase to our JA range which includes racial modifiers to force player model size parity would essentially be a welcome BUG FIX and far from something that should require nerf-strings attached. A Galka at max range's JA will go off, while a Tarutaru standing in the same spot will not. That needs to be fixed and without any strings attached.

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in one final ditch attenpt i will try and say it again,
All i have said so far has been a caution to everyone that SE team size has the capability to alter code which already exists in its entirety atm where you have been constantly staying its impossible due to your already stated reasons. this statement doesn't mean i support nerfing bst, its a fact that must be kept in mind is all.

How is it you (Nyariko) keep ending up with the same conclusion that i offered anything in terms of support for nerfing?, nor how my cautioning people ment i was saying that what i was saying is the only option, as my last post clearly stats

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Songen

(And odviously since they nerfed bst by reducing the distance to use the ability, they would likely try to balance it in their own crazy way as they always do), A likely hood (not that it would actually happen as i have stated) is they would nerf either the max charges or the recast value or perhaps both altogether in w/e sick perception is their sence of balance

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I am offering a CAUTION in terms that adjusting it has a likelihood of getting something else nerfed. This in no ways says i support nerfing bst to get the distance problem fixed, its advice that in everyones suggestions keep in mind the potentual dmg that may arise.

I could not for the life of me figure out how you keep coming to the same stupid conclusion that i support nerfing bst, insulting me continuously with that fact until i got as pissed off as i did before,since all I have been talking is the exact opposite to nerfing bst right from my first post on this thread, as such i am deaming it that you, Nyariko are trolling. I will no longer talk on this matter of SEs capability and hope everyone stays focused on trying to find a PROPER solution instead of being absent minded on the matter at hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Songen

in one final ditch attenpt i will try and say it again,
All i have said so far has been a caution to everyone that SE team size has the capability to alter code which already exists in its entirety atm where you have been constantly staying its impossible due to your already stated reasons. this statement doesn't mean i support nerfing bst, its a fact that must be kept in mind is all.

How is it you (Nyariko) keep ending up with the same conclusion that i offered anything in terms of support for nerfing?, nor how my cautioning people ment i was saying that what i was saying is the only option, as my last post clearly stats I am offering a CAUTION in terms that adjusting it has a likelihood of getting something else nerfed. This in no ways says i support nerfing bst to get the distance problem fixed, its advice that in everyones suggestions keep in mind the potentual dmg that may arise.

I could not for the life of me figure out how you keep coming to the same stupid conclusion that i support nerfing bst, insulting me continuously with that fact until i got as pissed off as i did before,since all I have been talking is the exact opposite to nerfing bst right from my first post on this thread, as such i am deaming it that you, Nyariko are trolling. I will no longer talk on this matter of SEs capability and hope everyone stays focused on trying to find a PROPER solution instead of being absent minded on the matter at hand.

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I am not trolling in any way, shape, or form. I actually thought we were having a decent discussion about the matter. ^^;; Before this became a two-man debate though, no one else asked for a single thing that would require any sort of balance nerf in order to allow and you were the only one who brought that up. No insults were intended, no need to be offended.

Correcting the player model size difference should be done regardless of any other adjustment. It would be fantastic if we could get a small range increase to at least allow for the 90' formation as others here have asked for. IF people here were demanding a full restoration, then I would agree with your stance that something else would probably have to take a hit in order to get the adjustment. That's not what anyone here is asking for though so there is no justification to insist that one would be necessary.

I still believe that altering Ready recast or charge limit would be a much larger undertaking than you are assuming it to be coding-wise, and even if not, as I already stated, adjustments to either of those things would result in massive game-breaking damage nerfs and likely to drop BST down to MNK's current viability or lower. ><;; (Let's all hope/post that MNK gets fixed btw. They need everyone's support.)

Personally, I've always had the feeling that the devs were OK with BST's damage potential, which is why they nerfed the range to silence the complainers instead of doing something that would actually change damage output directly. It did accomplish their goal in this case (fewer complaints about BST being OP) by increasing the work required for gameplay which chased off most bandwagoners, but those complaints are far from valid at this point due to content/gear progression since then bringing nearly everyone else's performance up, so fixing the bugs introduced by the nerf should no longer be out of the question. Bugfixes don't normally come with strings attached.... unless it's GEO related. XD

This turned into a shit storm quick.
Just use a tiger and can stand at '7
You guys need to get yourselves together if you getting all upset over such a small thing.
I can solo ruan t2 and reisinjima t1 np in its current distance.

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Originally Posted by Kishr

This turned into a shit storm quick.
Just use a tiger and can stand at '7
You guys need to get yourselves together if you getting all upset over such a small thing.
I can solo ruan t2 and reisinjima t1 np in its current distance.

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That 7' will vary between races based on player model size (taru <> hume/mithra/elvaan <> galka), and pet model as well as you pointed out. Tiger is not always the best choice depending on target and tactics, so the range WILL vary. I don't really mind having to run in/out, but being able to function (sometimes / sort of) is not justification to leave what is effectively a race-based bug active. Dismissing the problem does nothing to address our inability to even play the job the way the devs intended when they shoved the nerf down our throats.

It made BST really unfun for me to be honest, I stopped playing it mostly... with trusts BLU was already stronger... this was the nail in the coffin for the useability of bst for most things.

Well, I never knew there was a race issue until I read this thread.
Does anyone know the exact distance difference between races?

Double post Sorry,
Can't see it being further than a half a yalm or even 1+.

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Originally Posted by Kishr

Well, I never knew there was a race issue until I read this thread.
Does anyone know the exact distance difference between races?

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IIRC, it's ~.15y between sizes. So, .3y diff between taru/galka.. This may sound insignificant, and it pretty much was pre-nerf, but with the post-nerf distance, it's the difference of being in or out of AOE range while at max distance with some pets. We are looking at ~5% diff between taru/galka now. That is significant enough that it affects gameplay.

I'm pretty sure that the racial diff is actually universal for all spells/JAs, and has always been there, but the range for pretty much everything else in-game is high enough (15-21y) that it's not very noticeable (~.1%-1% in general.) It only became a problem once they dropped our range to a small fraction of what it was. IMO, if it is at all possible for the devs, they should increase the range for non-galkas to match up galkas. In addition to that bugfix, they should increase our JA range slightly so that we are able to fight at 90' from our pet on at least smaller-than-"large" size mobs. Somewhere around 9'-10' should be enough to pull this off.

Sorry for the long post.

Unpopular opinion, but I feel they should just revert the BST distance nerfs. It didn't change anything except making it frustrating to play.

There better ways to enforce a job vision of master meleeing with the pet. Like making the master work in tandem with the pet. Positive reinforcement.

Examples like:
• Pet "sambas" where the master has to keep attacking to continually debuff the mob for pet to receive benefits. Allowing the master to be in melee gear but still get pet support.

• Pet "Impetus" where the master's consecutive hits build up a buff on the pet.

• Pet "Mana cede" with master TP.

• Tame changes. If on the hate list for a mob and have a pet that intimidates the enemy, adds a killer effect similar sepulcher, arcane crest, etc.

• Run Wild and Spur also giving buffs to master since BST master has no DD traits except Fencer.

Examples are just to focus more that there are ways to make it strategic to melee. I don't have the number crunching for how adjustments need to be worked out.

While it's not envisioned to be a backline job, it should still have reduced capacity at a distance. It would be a more fair balance to incorporate how ranged damage is based on distance.

Remove the target pet function to use Ready/Sic moves. Introduce damage penalty starting at maybe 10 yalms based on distance between master and target.

This game has always had a balance issue with slow and steady versus fast and risky. But it's the way the game penalizes failures and doesn't reward risky strategies that's an issue, not the jobs usually.

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Originally Posted by Rwolf

Sorry for the long post.

Unpopular opinion, but I feel they should just revert the BST distance nerfs. It didn't change anything except making it frustrating to play.

There better ways to enforce a job vision of master meleeing with the pet. Like making the master work in tandem with the pet. Positive reinforcement.

Examples like:
• Pet "sambas" where the master has to keep attacking to continually debuff the mob for pet to receive benefits. Allowing the master to be in melee gear but still get pet support.

• Pet "Impetus" where the master's consecutive hits build up a buff on the pet.

• Pet "Mana cede" with master TP.

• Tame changes. If on the hate list for a mob and have a pet that intimidates the enemy, adds a killer effect similar sepulcher, arcane crest, etc.

• Run Wild and Spur also giving buffs to master since BST master has no DD traits except Fencer.

Examples are just to focus more that there are ways to make it strategic to melee. I don't have the number crunching for how adjustments need to be worked out.

While it's not envisioned to be a backline job, it should still have reduced capacity at a distance. It would be a more fair balance to incorporate how ranged damage is based on distance.

Remove the target pet function to use Ready/Sic moves. Introduce damage penalty starting at maybe 10 yalms based on distance between master and target.

This game has always had a balance issue with slow and steady versus fast and risky. But it's the way the game penalizes failures and doesn't reward risky strategies that's an issue, not the jobs usually.

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It's not that a full reversion would be unpopular, it's that we are all scared about the probable nerfs that would likely accompany it. And non-BSTs would probably freak out again even tho other DDs can outperform us at this point. ^^;; Why ask for something that you know will have nasty strings attached when you can ask for something smaller that should be enough to allow you to do what you are trying to do?

I like the idea behind your JA suggestions, but I think it would make more sense to reverse them and have the pet buff the master. Having master actions buff the pet still feels like the pet is the primary focus and wouldn't make master melee really feel "required". Something like your "Impetus" would require the master being melee geared (which would effectively debuff pets and significantly lower damage output from them.) If the pet buffed the master instead though, it might push us into actually wanting to melee.

The problem with the envisioned playstyle is that BST has absolutely zero incentive to melee alongside pet to outweigh the negatives of doing so. Yes, we'd need stuff like new traits/abilities to start with, but it's also currently impossible to gear both master/pet simultaneously due to gear design. This doesn't mean that they need to merely add new gear that breaks old stat budget limits to buff both (which would be the typical dev reaction based on precedent.) They would have to go back and adjust current gear if they really want to have an impact on how we play. That sounds like too much work to be approved though, so we should probably ask for something different that CAN be done.

The ideal solution in my opinion would be to have gear stats apply to both master/pet. Doing so should be a lot simpler than most probably expect too, since that should be doable as a JT that applies a portion of master stats to pet and/or vice versa. Somewhere around 75% (single-direction) would probably be enough to allow us to function well enough in the manner they want us to play. Doing this as a passive JT would also avoid affecting the other pet jobs. ^^ Not sure which direction the stats should flow, and personally would be somewhat depressed if it was only master>pet since that would mean a ton of work replacing all my pet: gear w/ melee gear... Maybe reciprocal master<>pet but 50%? The value itself could be a valuable "adjustment knob" for the dev team as well since they would only have to look at one spot to adjust in case something caused our damage to get out of whack.

I don't why you reply quote a super long post to respond to someone.

The suggestions are just random musing examples. We feel we know SE nerfed BST as a knee jerk reaction to playerbase anger. But if their vision is for BST to melee with their pets, my opinion is working in tandem and allowing it to be potent enough to compensate from the pet focus builds that occur now.

I'm not gonna come up with ideas in detail because I'm not thoroughly excited to get picked apart by you.

You can't say that a full reversion is unpopular and then take an alternate stance against it. It only proves my point that it's an unpopular opinion.

My opinion reiterated is the distance changes should be reverted and if they want BST to melee with the pets. They should work in tandem.

I'm all for hybrid armor but just as you have no faith based on experience of job changes. I have no faith in hybrid gear/buffs being properly done.

When you catch a cold from someone irl, and you know who it is, do you complain and demand they take it back or just deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Kishr

When you catch a cold from someone irl, and you know who it is, do you complain and demand they take it back or just deal with it.

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If that person infected you intentionally, then there can be legal grounds to sue them. If the disease is something lethal like HIV, then both civil and criminal charges can possibly apply. Let's try another analogy? ^^;;

Using the same medical theme, this is more like someone amputated my leg and I just want a prosthetic to replace the crutches I was given instead. We don't need runner's blades, we just want to be able to walk without being hobbled anymore. ^^;; Before anyone oversensitive complains about this analogy, I'm disabled myself so I'm confident in my right to talk about how it feels to be limpy. ^^

No idea what you are talking about.
The distance nerf is not even close to that reasoning.
It happened, it's not going away, just accept it and deal with it.

I don't know what you're talking about either to be honest. A medical analogy to a video game isn't even close to similar reasoning.

This is a suggestion and feedback forum that SE themselves request feedback on. If it's irritating to read opinions and feedback, then don't read it.

BST was nerfed for a very good reason, it broke the game at a fundamental level. Gaslighting people doesn't help any of your arguments. SE will not, under any circumstances, remove the distance restriction. Now they might ease up on it a bit but they intentionally wanted players to be in range of monster TP moves when using the Ready ability. This isn't an oversight, they wanted you to get hit by that stuff just like very other player does. You need to wear -DT gear when you run in to use Ready and play a lot smarter then watching cat video's and pressing ready over and over again at 20.4 yalms.

No one is gaslighting anyone. Making a medical analogy to a video game doesn't help an argument.

No one is asking for BST to be some penalty free DD. It's fine if the job design is to melee with pets, long term BST have been doing that for years before buffs.

The distance penalty creates more issues than it solves. Which is basically none because as you said BSTs can just run in and out in DT gear.

Bullying all the forums about pet jobs isn't going to stop people from having opinions. Its a feedback forum that SE encourages voicing changes. I encourage other BSTs to keep sharing their experiences with the distance issues and suggestions for workarounds.

Ultimately SE is going to decide whatever, don't need player moderators patrolling forums for what should and should not be suggested. Just disagree, state why and move on.

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No one is gaslighting anyone.

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Yes you are

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No one is asking for BST to be some penalty free DD

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This is precisely what you are all asking for and is an example of you gaslighting people

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The distance penalty creates more issues than it solve

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As the previous problem was a complete breakdown in game mechanics, it's not possible for them to create more issues.

BST is perfectly fine now, you no longer can stay back at 20 feet and spam ready macro while watching TV. Now you need to pay attention to the fight mechanics, run in and out of range while maintaining situational awareness and adjusting gear dynamically. You and most other terribad BST's are incapable of doing that, you played BST because it was an "easy" way to get stuff done and since it's no longer "easy mode" you feel bad. The good BST's have long since adjusted their play style and are doing just as well as before, I know because I play with a bunch of epic BST's.

You don't know what gaslighting means if you're trying to say anyone speaking their opinion on this forum thread is trying to manipulate someone into questioning their own sanity.

You might be that emotionally charged to continue attacking people on forums but I'm not taking that in. You're aren't trying to have a discussion. Just starting arguments by going after someone's character in order to bully people away from topics you don't agree with.

I won't defend myself against your accusations because their unfounded and ridiculous. Please continue attacking me personally so I can report you.

Projection much.

You enjoy trying to rile people up with misdirection.

The topic is concerning BST distancing pros and cons. Not medical analogies. Not attacking personal character. Not calling people horrible BSTs for disagreeing with the changes with no knowledge of what content they are actually completing.

I apologize to others continuing derailing. Continue shouting into the void if you want (block). I'm all for disagreement but this is just petty internet fighting because someone has an opinion you don't agree with.

No SE won't remove the distance restriction. Please continue holding your breath waiting for them.