Ballad overwrite

I know this has been brought up before, but it's still an issue. Because of the shorter duration of ballad, there is still the overwrite problem when other songs have longer duration.

IE. Acc, Acc, March, March all at 5 minutes. Ballad having 4 min 30 sec duration.
Casting ballad 3 will push the lowest remaining duration song off, but if you cast ballad 2 right after ballad 3, ballad 2 will overwrite ballad 3. Under normal song duration you could wait 31 seconds before casting ballad 3, so that ballad 3 isn't the lowest time remaining, but the issue is when NT songs are performed. You would have to wait 5 min 31 sec to overwrite a non ballad song.

My suggestion is make ballads, only ballads specific like haste. IE 1 cannot overwrite 2 or 3, 2 cannot overwrite 3. The lesser ballad cannot overwrite the greater ballad. In this way it would solve the ballad issue without the need to add either all songs or ballad+ on equipment.

your ballad having 4min 30sec is your gears fault, what that means is your casting your songs in a incorrect order. if you lock out songs from overwriting each other, those songs that need to be casted in a order (Or out of order due to mobs dispeling your party and your not sure whats left or everyone has something different on at the time) won't land correctly, infact, you might think you've casted all 3 songs of ballad on someone and you've only got one to land because of the failure to land because of a higher teir blocking a lower teir

The duration for ALL party based songs are the same (2 minutes). both duration gear and song+1 equipment extend song duration. pretty much what you've done is replaced one of your song duration or song+1 equips with a ballad +1 or it could be your ranged equip third/fouth song doesn't match your 1st/2nd ranged equip.
Gjallarhorn and daurdabla have a slightly different duration count since gjalla is 40% duration increase when its song+4 and daurad is 30% duration increase.

This is entirely you being lazy and not changing your casting order.

The times I posted are only examples. If you wish I can post my EXACT times for a REMA brd, but I was posting as an example.

I have been brd for over 12 years, so I think I know the job well as anyone can.

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Originally Posted by VoiceMemo

The times I posted are only examples. If you wish I can post my EXACT times for a REMA brd, but I was posting as an example.

I have been brd for over 12 years, so I think I know the job well as anyone can. So for you to say such things means you don't know what IE means(In Example).

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and my reply is exactly ment towards that IE, whether its ballad or madrigal or w/e i already explained the duration is 2minutes, its about which order you do it and understand from the start which song should go where. if your a brd for 12 years and you don't understand this and having so many problems while other bards already figured it out, then try learning the job for once.

EDIT: I noticed you changed your first post

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Originally Posted by Songen

and my reply is exactly ment towards that IE, whether its ballad or madrigal or w/e i already explained the duration is 2minutes, its about which order you do it and understand from the start which song should go where. if your a brd for 12 years and you don't understand this and having so many problems while other bards already figured it out, then try learning the job for once.

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Well clearly we disagree so I'll add you to my forum blist.

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Originally Posted by VoiceMemo

Well clearly we disagree so I'll add you to my forum blist.

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put yourself there while your at it

This is a real issue. And it's even worse in a Troubadour situation. We already have issues where some songs have wonky durations like Madrigal (since you get a +1 on back). But Ballad is particularly noticeable because you generally want to cast them last. I think the best solution is to put Ballad +2 on Empyrean legs and I'll bet that's exactly what we will see in the future when SE gets around to adding +2/+3 versions of the armor.

Maybe change the over all system that it'll always work from the longest duration instead of shortest duration. that way even if you screw up, you can simply cast in what ever order you want without worry of which spell will overwrite what (This option isn't as much recommended since NT 's duration is limited to be casted while NT is activated, so in essence you'll risk overwriting a 15min song with a 5-7min song)

or as long as NT is on (Since it works by duration of the active ability rather than a single cast and this specific suggestion is aimed to work for NT only), what ever is casted while NT is on and the highest duration during NT will remain static across all 4 songs without being reduced if a another song is casted unless that song is longer than NT duration (Condition:for example-Which is pretty much when NT static falls below 6min ish and your new duration is 7min), however for the duration of the NT static timer, all songs will overwrite from the highest duration if your normal duration is less without removing the NT static timer (Unless the previous condition is met)

Honestly feels like the system is based on 2 song system back at 75. something needs to be done to bring it upto lv119 standards

For those who wish to discuss this further and not be condescending like Songen here is my example situation.

party of 11, composed of

party 1 Tank, Whm, Geo, brd, DD, DD
party 2 DD, DD, DD, cor, whm

Brd Soul voices and CC's NT
Than pianissmo's ballad 3 on whm, cannot put any more ballads as ballad 2 would overwrite ballad 3

Brd then swaps to 2nd party, sings madrigal, madrigal, attack, daurdabla song1, daurdabla song 2, honor, victory
again pianissmo's ballad 3 on whm, and cannot put any more ballads as they would overwrite ballad 3

NT has worn by now and it is still impossible to overwrite other songs with ballads and because of the amount of songs it is impossible to have whm stand away
from the dd so that they do not receive the dd songs, as the max time for NT is 1 min 20 seconds with max NT merits you can get 15, maybe 16 songs off when you include swap time, pianissimo ja time and if swap is slow NT will not last long enough to get the 2nd party with full duration songs.

This is why I think ballads should act like hastes where the higher one cannot be overwritten by a lower one, thereby forcing one of the other songs off. After NT wears soul voice and cc still have a good 1 min 40 seconds left. I would like to apply 3 ballads 2 marches on myself so I would have more mp refresh to assist healing/na'ing alliance.

It makes no sense to reorder songs in this case to focus on ballads first as this is all about DD songs, dd's would benefit more from songs with longer duration, but to help support it would be good to have ballads on, but the song duration prevents this.

The only other solutions are to add more ballad + gear on slots that currently don't have all song or song duration on them. Adding more all song gear would just keep the ballad to other song gap the same. The current gap is 27% between acc/march compared to ballad duration.

Or to increase the base duration of ballads by 27%, 32.4s.

Ballad +2 on empyrean legs is not enough to bridge the gap between other songs. To match other songs legs would have to be Ballad +3.7

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Originally Posted by VoiceMemo

For those who wish to discuss this further and not be condescending like Songen here is my example situation.

party of 11, composed of

party 1 Tank, Whm, Geo, brd, DD, DD
party 2 DD, DD, DD, cor, whm

Brd Soul voices and CC's NT
Than pianissmo's ballad 3 on whm, cannot put any more ballads as ballad 2 would overwrite ballad 3

Brd then swaps to 2nd party, sings madrigal, madrigal, attack, daurdabla song1, daurdabla song 2, honor, victory
again pianissmo's ballad 3 on whm, and cannot put any more ballads as they would overwrite ballad 3

NT has worn by now and it is still impossible to overwrite other songs with ballads and because of the amount of songs it is impossible to have whm stand away
from the dd so that they do not receive the dd songs, as the max time for NT is 1 min 20 seconds with max NT merits you can get 15, maybe 16 songs off when you include swap time, pianissimo ja time and if swap is slow NT will not last long enough to get the 2nd party with full duration songs.

This is why I think ballads should act like hastes where the higher one cannot be overwritten by a lower one, thereby forcing one of the other songs off. After NT wears soul voice and cc still have a good 1 min 40 seconds left. I would like to apply 3 ballads 2 marches on myself so I would have more mp refresh to assist healing/na'ing alliance.

It makes no sense to reorder songs in this case to focus on ballads first as this is all about DD songs, dd's would benefit more from songs with longer duration, but to help support it would be good to have ballads on, but the song duration prevents this.

The only other solutions are to add more ballad + gear on slots that currently don't have all song or song duration on them. Adding more all song gear would just keep the ballad to other song gap the same. The current gap is 27% between acc/march compared to ballad duration.

Or to increase the base duration of ballads by 27%, 32.4s.

Ballad +2 on empyrean legs is not enough to bridge the gap between other songs. To match other songs legs would have to be Ballad +3.7

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(Before you write off what i am writing, atleast read the last 2 paragraphs)

i have no want to be condescending,i am not trying to belittle, or shame or over all say your idea isn't bad,infact it does have alot of merit and can be one of the best new idea's around however that merit holds a heavy limit for all brds.

My only concern is the bards who want all 3 ballads on outside of big events, your method blocks ballads full stop should ballad 3 land, not everyone is a overpowered bard, i am trying think of the entire player base rather than a few (And i say a few because there are only a few brds like yourself who have the gear plus can do what you mentioned exactly correctly)
I am trying to be realistic for bards in general,you are talking from the prospective of NT, only in high teir events will such a tactic will it be used where you plan such a massive amount of songs over alliances within a short period.

If all you want is to land ballad 3, then make your ballad 3 the last song you sing (Buff all DD's fully then make the last song you sing ballad 3 for the whm). it will land for sure for the whm since songs always overwrite the lowest delay song, even if the delay is 15mins, any new songs will overwrite that 15 min song since its the lowest delay on the list.

my example falls to you too "After NT wears soul voice and cc still have a good 1 min 40 seconds left. I would like to apply 3 ballads 2 marches on myself so I would have more mp refresh to assist healing/na'ing alliance."
Should you by accident land ballad 3 on yourself first, you'll be unable to achieve all 3 ballad songs since #3 blocks #2 and #1.

I am honestly not trying to make problems mate, what i would suggest tho is the ability "Tenuto" affect party members too rather than the brd casting it only, this will grant your non overwrite requirement on anyone fully and can actually lock all song types meaning you could in essence lock whm first with all 3 ballads then go nuts with melee buffs.

You can even lock defencive songs on the pld first then go nuts boosting your melees, it is a 5 second ability however considering the delay between songs, you might lose 1-2 second only depending on your fast cast (which odviously is capped for you)and the natural delay between songs.

Bump, can we get some information if Tenuto can be made into a party affected and not just self affected ability (which can work in conjuction if needed with pianissmo as well)

New guy here to Bard.

I hate the way song overwrites currently works.

You should just trade Daurdabla in for a KI that lets sing 4 songs.

Overwriting songs is currently nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Gwydion

New guy here to Bard.

I hate the way song overwrites currently works.

You should just trade Daurdabla in for a KI that lets sing 4 songs.

Overwriting songs is currently nonsense.

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Because they wanted the annoyance.

In case you don't know this, you can just get the 3rd and 4th songs up initially with Daurdabla, then you can maintain all songs with Gjallarhorn. As long as the songs don't dispelled or wear you can sing all 4 songs with Gjallarhorn.

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Originally Posted by VoiceMemo

I know this has been brought up before, but it's still an issue. Because of the shorter duration of ballad, there is still the overwrite problem when other songs have longer duration.

IE. Acc, Acc, March, March all at 5 minutes. Ballad having 4 min 30 sec duration.
Casting ballad 3 will push the lowest remaining duration song off, but if you cast ballad 2 right after ballad 3, ballad 2 will overwrite ballad 3. Under normal song duration you could wait 31 seconds before casting ballad 3, so that ballad 3 isn't the lowest time remaining, but the issue is when NT songs are performed. You would have to wait 5 min 31 sec to overwrite a non ballad song.

My suggestion is make ballads, only ballads specific like haste. IE 1 cannot overwrite 2 or 3, 2 cannot overwrite 3. The lesser ballad cannot overwrite the greater ballad. In this way it would solve the ballad issue without the need to add either all songs or ballad+ on equipment.

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While i have made a ass of myself in this thread, being quite ignorant in alot of matters, and looking back i was EXTREMELY ignorant and i apologise to the OP for that ignorance,

I am curious tho, was the OPs original request that should a song like ballad III be active on the player, it would push any lower tier ballads to the next duration slot? e.g. instead of ballad II overwriting a 4min 30 sec ballad III song, it would instead go to the next duration available which might for example be a 5 minute song?
And that only ballad III or any other song other than ballad I or can overwrite ballad III?
the same that Ballad can't overwrite Ballad II or Ballad III (If ballad II or III are active) so ballad would then go to the third longest duration slot which could be 5min 10 seconds (For example)

Perhaps instead of replacing based on remaining duration, it targets oldest timestamp? I think this would be the only way to guarantee the behavior that it sounds like you are asking for.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

Perhaps instead of replacing based on remaining duration, it targets oldest timestamp? I think this would be the only way to guarantee the behavior that it sounds like you are asking for.

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Oldest timestamp would not work as it would result in more songs having to be sung when getting up songs 3 and 4 with daurdabla. IE (assuming no time to get 4 songs up before real fight) currently fastest way to get 4 songs on at maximum power is first 2 songs gjallarhorn, 2 songs with daurdabla, then overwrite the 2 daurdabla songs with gjallarhorn powered songs, 6 songs total.

If oldest timestamp was added, all 4 songs would have to be sung with daurdabla, then 4 songs with gjallarhorn power, 8 songs total.

When using NT, time is limited to 1 min 20 seconds maximum and you can get 15 maybe 16 songs off before it wears, when party swapping this would not be ideal.

My points to fix ballad overwrite would be in this order:

1) Increase base ballad duration to account for the 27% difference in song duration, in this way it would not overpower the potency of ballad

2) Add more ballad+ on slots that currently do not have ballad+ or all song+, this would add power to ballad over the 30mp/tic native, which would likely overpower it.

3) Make it so that if ballad 3 is on and you cast ballad 2 or ballad 1, it forces another song to be overwritten. Basically a higher tier ballad cannot overwrite a lower tier ballad and it forces another song to be overwritten. IE attack 5 has 11min 00 sec remaining, attack 4 has 11 min 5 sec remaining, honor march has 11 min 10 sec remaining, victory march has 11 min 15 sec remaining. NT has already worn.

Current status:
If you cast ballad 3 it would overwrite attack 5 since that has lowest duration, but now ballad 3 is the lowest duration at 5 min 26 seconds. If ballad 2 is cast it will overwrite ballad 3 since that is lowest duration.

Suggested change:
Cast ballad 3 which overwrites attack 5 since that has lowest duration. Cast ballad 2 would then see ballad 3 is already on so it would overwrite attack 4 as next lowest duration.

I have played BRD for quite some time as well, but took a long break after WotG came out (at the the expansion was only partly rolled out) and only recently rejoined FFXI. While I (think I) understand your request, it would seem that for the situation described, simply forming all-mage and all-DD parties for the prebuffs would essentially solve your problem. There is no reason to pianissimo. Since you as the bard are already party hopping, why not make your job simpler by having the others also party hop. Using this method, there is no need to overwrite melee songs with mage songs (and/or vice versa) -- this could possibly give you time to do even more songs for other groups. This should be fine for pre-buffs right before starting a battle. You sing your songs, no overwrites except for songs 3 and 4, and everyone reforms into their proper parties. Macro out the invites if you have to to save time.

This would not work, however, if your fights are fairly drawn out and troubador/nightingale needed to be used multiple times. However, I wonder if this may still be a non-issue mid-battle since by then the parties are usually separated enough that you would not need to overwrite a melee song with a mage song (i.e. your healers are generally not standing side by side with your melee).

Please fix this, it's INSANELY annoying.

I am trying to figure out why Ballad has a shorter duration than other songs.. As far as I know, ALL buff songs have a base duration of 120sec. The maximum amount of Song+1 (bgwiki says its +8 currently) should be the same across March/Minuet/Ballad at least... The only commonly used buff exceptions to the current Song+8 limit would be Madrigal due to Ambuscade cape, no? Yes, Mousai+1 set bumps a few songs up to +9, but HQs are wallet-killers and when was the last time you were called on for Mambo or Minne? :x

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

I am trying to figure out why Ballad has a shorter duration than other songs.. As far as I know, ALL buff songs have a base duration of 120sec. The maximum amount of Song+1 (bgwiki says its +8 currently) should be the same across March/Minuet/Ballad at least... The only commonly used buff exceptions to the current Song+8 limit would be Madrigal due to Ambuscade cape, no? Yes, Mousai+1 set bumps a few songs up to +9, but HQs are wallet-killers and when was the last time you were called on for Mambo or Minne? :x

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I posted this early on:

The only other solutions are to add more ballad + gear on slots that currently don't have all song or song duration on them. Adding more all song gear would just keep the ballad to other song gap the same. The current gap is 27% between acc/march compared to ballad duration.

Or to increase the base duration of ballads by 27%, 32.4s.

Ballad +2 on empyrean legs is not enough to bridge the gap between other songs. To match other songs legs would have to be Ballad +3.7

I will elaborate further:

Ballad max duration comes from Carnwenhan 60s(120 x 50%), Gjallarhorn 48s(120 x 40%), Moonbow whistle +1 36s(120x30%), Fili Hongreline +1 14.4(14 se tends to round down)(120x12%), Fili rhingrave +1 12s (120 x 10%), Brisoso sillpers +3 18s(120 x 15%)

120 + 60 + 48 + 36 + 14 + 12 + 18 = 308s

It is because other songs can use the duration legs inyanga shalwar +2 (120 x 17%), but for ballad potency you must use the Fili rhingrave +1. This results in a minimal 7% difference in duration to all songs, add in the fact that for marches you get an additional +1 from Fili manchettes +1, adds another 10% for a 17% difference for marches. Add in intarabus's cape(120 x 10%) and Fili calot +1 (120 x10%) for madrigal results in a 27% difference in duration from ballad.

Basically the difference in duration comes down to the use of ballad legs or duration legs and the fact other slots have specific song +1 attributes

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Originally Posted by VoiceMemo

I posted this early on:

The only other solutions are to add more ballad + gear on slots that currently don't have all song or song duration on them. Adding more all song gear would just keep the ballad to other song gap the same. The current gap is 27% between acc/march compared to ballad duration.

Or to increase the base duration of ballads by 27%, 32.4s.

Ballad +2 on empyrean legs is not enough to bridge the gap between other songs. To match other songs legs would have to be Ballad +3.7

I will elaborate further:

Ballad max duration comes from Carnwenhan 60s(120 x 50%), Gjallarhorn 48s(120 x 40%), Moonbow whistle +1 36s(120x30%), Fili Hongreline +1 14.4(14 se tends to round down)(120x12%), Fili rhingrave +1 12s (120 x 10%), Brisoso sillpers +3 18s(120 x 15%)

120 + 60 + 48 + 36 + 14 + 12 + 18 = 308s

It is because other songs can use the duration legs inyanga shalwar +2 (120 x 17%), but for ballad potency you must use the Fili rhingrave +1. This results in a minimal 7% difference in duration to all songs, add in the fact that for marches you get an additional +1 from Fili manchettes +1, adds another 10% for a 17% difference for marches. Add in intarabus's cape(120 x 10%) and Fili calot +1 (120 x10%) for madrigal results in a 27% difference in duration from ballad.

Basically the difference in duration comes down to the use of ballad legs or duration legs and the fact other slots have specific song +1 attributes

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So really, what it comes down to is just a conflict between duration and ballad+1 on the legs. If it was in a different slot, then the only things ahead of it would be the few songs that can hit +9 currently. Could be solved by adding a ballad+ earring/ring, which should be simple enough to implement that it could actually happen. They could also add duration+15/+17 to the much expected Empyrean 119+2/+3 if/when it happens. I'd much prefer a bit of simplification for the 3-4 song model at the system level, but I'm not dumb enough to expect that to happen.

Technically, couldn't you also sacrifice potency to match/exceed the difference right now? Marsyas would add an extra +10% above ghorn, and could use the Inyanga+2 pants for ballad as well. That should only leave Madrigal/Prelude ahead due to Ambuscade cape. FAR from an attractive option, but feels like the kind of "Working as Intended" response you'd probably get from the devs (if the devs were able to read this.)

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

So really, what it comes down to is just a conflict between duration and ballad+1 on the legs. If it was in a different slot, then the only things ahead of it would be the few songs that can hit +9 currently. Could be solved by adding a ballad+ earring/ring, which should be simple enough to implement that it could actually happen. They could also add duration+15/+17 to the much expected Empyrean 119+2/+3 if/when it happens. I'd much prefer a bit of simplification for the 3-4 song model at the system level, but I'm not dumb enough to expect that to happen.

Technically, couldn't you also sacrifice potency to match/exceed the difference right now? Marsyas would add an extra +10% above ghorn, and could use the Inyanga+2 pants for ballad as well. That should only leave Madrigal/Prelude ahead due to Ambuscade cape. FAR from an attractive option, but feels like the kind of "Working as Intended" response you'd probably get from the devs (if the devs were able to read this.)

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If you cared about duration only yes maysra and legs could be used but you're sacrificing +5 to ballad which if you are singing 3x ballad you're sacrificing 15mp/tic and only receiving 1+3, 2+3, 3+3 = 15mp/tic (if you have moonbow necklace +1) which is half the mp/tic(30m/tic) with gjallarhorn and legs. Imo sacrificing 50% of the potency is not worth the duration.

Bard to be best is REMA, Relic = Quality of songs, Empy = Quantity of songs, and Mythic = Duration of songs, Aeonic = Special march, before Aeonic I called this the trifecta, quality, quantity and duration. Now it's trifecta + honor + neck +1.

If a whm has 2 marches 2 minuets with a duration to long for 2 ballads to stick (5min30+), why not just sing minuetx2(with no duration gear)>2 ballads?

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Originally Posted by Apennyworth

If a whm has 2 marches 2 minuets with a duration to long for 2 ballads to stick (5min30+), why not just sing minuetx2(with no duration gear)>2 ballads?

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So your solution is to gimp the minuet timers of dd's, so mages can get ballads? Why is the solution always to gimp rather than boost? Boosting the base duration of ballad would not hurt the all songs+ gear and would fix the current ballad overwrite issue.

If you redo the minuets on the mage only you aren't gimping anyone, but I was thinking about just not using the ambuscade legs for minuets tbh and use the empy legs instead, you can still reach 10 min songs so still full time Marcato and you get extra STR bonus from empy armor

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Originally Posted by VoiceMemo

For those who wish to discuss this further and not be condescending like Songen here is my example situation.

party of 11, composed of

party 1 Tank, Whm, Geo, brd, DD, DD
party 2 DD, DD, DD, cor, whm

Brd Soul voices and CC's NT
Than pianissmo's ballad 3 on whm, cannot put any more ballads as ballad 2 would overwrite ballad 3

Brd then swaps to 2nd party, sings madrigal, madrigal, attack, daurdabla song1, daurdabla song 2, honor, victory
again pianissmo's ballad 3 on whm, and cannot put any more ballads as they would overwrite ballad 3

NT has worn by now and it is still impossible to overwrite other songs with ballads and because of the amount of songs it is impossible to have whm stand away
from the dd so that they do not receive the dd songs, as the max time for NT is 1 min 20 seconds with max NT merits you can get 15, maybe 16 songs off when you include swap time, pianissimo ja time and if swap is slow NT will not last long enough to get the 2nd party with full duration songs.

This is why I think ballads should act like hastes where the higher one cannot be overwritten by a lower one, thereby forcing one of the other songs off. After NT wears soul voice and cc still have a good 1 min 40 seconds left. I would like to apply 3 ballads 2 marches on myself so I would have more mp refresh to assist healing/na'ing alliance.

It makes no sense to reorder songs in this case to focus on ballads first as this is all about DD songs, dd's would benefit more from songs with longer duration, but to help support it would be good to have ballads on, but the song duration prevents this.

The only other solutions are to add more ballad + gear on slots that currently don't have all song or song duration on them. Adding more all song gear would just keep the ballad to other song gap the same. The current gap is 27% between acc/march compared to ballad duration.

Or to increase the base duration of ballads by 27%, 32.4s.

Ballad +2 on empyrean legs is not enough to bridge the gap between other songs. To match other songs legs would have to be Ballad +3.7

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Rebump of my own post because I'm still seeing bards try to do 2x ballad when doing NT songs and overwriting ballad 3 with 2

Reforging of empy is the perfect solution to the 27% gap in the duration of ballad compared to acc/march. I suggest on the Empy +3 legs "ballad duration 27%" get added to them along with ballad +2. This would be a solution so that ballad would not be overpowered as it would have to be ballad 3.7 to equal the duration.

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Originally Posted by DarkValefor

If you redo the minuets on the mage only you aren't gimping anyone, but I was thinking about just not using the ambuscade legs for minuets tbh and use the empy legs instead, you can still reach 10 min songs so still full time Marcato and you get extra STR bonus from empy armor

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Takes a long time, but lets be honest... nobody needs more than 1 ballad.