Beastmaster is now officially a DD job.

The new AF+2/3 adds no Pet stats, only DD stats. The existing Pet stats go up 1 point.

With NONE of the +2/3 adding Pet stats our pets will not be able to hit anything. They need Accuracy just like all the other jobs. This update finally turns BST into a DD job.

But, hey, what is this. We can wear the new pet job body Armor and Resist Sleep while fighting the mob with the new Udug Jacket: Resist Sleep"+90 Damage taken -10% Pet: Magic Accuracy+45 "Magic Atk. Bonus"+45

Make up your mind SE. Put us on DD gear or give us Pet stats.

For example:

Totemic Gloves +1: Pet: Haste +3%
Totemic Gloves +2: Pet: Haste +4% (Beastmaster: Weaponskill Damage +5%, Accuracy +38 Parry +17)
Totemic Gloves +3: Pet: Haste +5% (Beastmaster: Weaponskill Damage +10%, Accuracy +48 Parry +19)

Compare that to SNM

Convoker's Bracers +1: Avatar: Emnity +5
Convoker's Bracers +2: Avatar: Accuracy+33 Magic Accuracy+33 Enmity+10 "Double Attack"+5
Convoker's Bracers +3: Avatar: Accuracy+43 Magic Accuracy+43 Enmity+15 "Double Attack"+10%


Thank you SE for destroying one of the most fun jobs you ever created. Starting from removal of Charm the job went downhill. You finally made it into a DD because you can't be bothered to balance.

It's now officially what SE wanted it to be for years. (Also you forget they still have 2 more armour sets to go +3, maybe one of them will be pet focused)

Fun you say..... safe maybe, never would have said fun.

Fun when we still had to charm pets, when we carefully selected pets to get an advantage against mobs, when we used our skills and abilities that are now obsolete or replaced by stuff like Fencer.

Btw.: SMN is also "safe" it does not even have a Recast Timer.

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Originally Posted by Skyrant_Kangaroomouse

Fun when we still had to charm pets, when we carefully selected pets to get an advantage against mobs, when we used our skills and abilities that are now obsolete or replaced by stuff like Fencer.

Btw.: SMN is also "safe" it does not even have a Recast Timer.

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You basically just charmed pets constantly and threw them at an enemy while standing back, I never found it fun personally, tedious, however; for sure. It's been implemented poorly I don't doubt, but it was clear from day one BST was intended to melee with their pet.

Yes, SMN has become the new BST but unlike BST it was clearly supposed to, hence the SMN is a mage with little to no melee traits/abilities/gear.

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Originally Posted by Jakuk

You basically just charmed pets constantly and threw them at an enemy while standing back, I never found it fun personally, tedious, however; for sure. It's been implemented poorly I don't doubt, but it was clear from day one BST was intended to melee with their pet.

Yes, SMN has become the new BST but unlike BST it was clearly supposed to, hence the SMN is a mage with little to no melee traits/abilities/gear.

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And yet SMN AF119+3 has a total of acc+240 for the master, and didn't add up the pet stats, but they get tons of that too... Makes sense, no? -_-

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

And yet SMN AF119+3 has a total of acc+240 for the master, and didn't add up the pet stats, but they get tons of that too... Makes sense, no? -_-

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You seem to misquote me, I never once said the lack of pet stats on BST gear made sense.

I said BST was always intended to be a DD, It was. I even stated in my second post: it's been implemented poorly.

I said SMN was always meant to be how BST was played with BST intended to engage with their pet, It is.

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Originally Posted by Jakuk

It's now officially what SE wanted it to be for years. (Also you forget they still have 2 more armour sets to go +3, maybe one of them will be pet focused)

Fun you say..... safe maybe, never would have said fun.

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Fun is subjective. Being able to have both options though would at least let you chose your fun

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Originally Posted by Jakuk

You seem to misquote me, I never once said the lack of pet stats on BST gear made sense.

I said BST was always intended to be a DD, It was. I even stated in my second post: it's been implemented poorly.

I said SMN was always meant to be how BST was played with BST intended to engage with their pet, It is.

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My reply was to your statement of: "Yes, SMN has become the new BST but unlike BST it was clearly supposed to, hence the SMN is a mage with little to no melee traits/abilities/gear."
BTW, BST AF119+3 -- head has pet:acc+40, body has pet: dt-10%, gloves pet:haste+5%, legs pet:atk+40, feet pet:acc+30 atk+30... can't really say "zero pet stats" but compared to SMN stats, it does make me wanna cry :"(

And my point was that SMN now has access to enough acc to melee alongside pet as well, and has basically the same amount of melee traits/abilities that BST does. (Zero.)

"Intending" for BST to melee alongside their pet may have worked for pre-ilvl days when it wasn't expected to be reasonable to be whacking things 30+ lvls over your own. Since day1 tho, SE has not done a single thing to the design of the job that actually assisted/encouraged the playstyle of master melee. BST has zero JAs to support master melee, and the only JT that can be referenced is Fencer, which is situational at best. Every single aspect of the job was designed around our pets. If there were even 2-3 logical reasons for me to want to swing away next to Patrick, then I would consider it. As it stands, I have yet to encounter any situation where it would be more beneficial to melee myself than to not do so. If I want to whack things with pointy objects, I have other jobs that specialize in that. XD

I wasn't really expecting much out of AF+3 for either of my two fav jobs (BST and BRD), and my expectations were fulfilled on both fronts.. Rather confused why exactly it is that Reward potency values on body/feet were both further increased for instance, as the normal 119+1 versions were already well over cap when paired. Was kinda hoping body would get converted to potency II at least. ><;; And while you may consider this set a DD set, I see no real attack+ to speak of, its nothing but acc+ ._.;; Even last month's Ambuscade set has more non-niche uses than what we got on AF119+3 ><;;

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

My reply was to your statement of: "Yes, SMN has become the new BST but unlike BST it was clearly supposed to, hence the SMN is a mage with little to no melee traits/abilities/gear."
BTW, BST AF119+3 -- head has pet:acc+40, body has pet: dt-10%, gloves pet:haste+5%, legs pet:atk+40, feet pet:acc+30 atk+30... can't really say "zero pet stats" but compared to SMN stats, it does make me wanna cry :"(

And my point was that SMN now has access to enough acc to melee alongside pet as well, and has basically the same amount of melee traits/abilities that BST does. (Zero.)

"Intending" for BST to melee alongside their pet may have worked for pre-ilvl days when it wasn't expected to be reasonable to be whacking things 30+ lvls over your own. Since day1 tho, SE has not done a single thing to the design of the job that actually assisted/encouraged the playstyle of master melee. BST has zero JAs to support master melee, and the only JT that can be referenced is Fencer, which is situational at best. Every single aspect of the job was designed around our pets. If there were even 2-3 logical reasons for me to want to swing away next to Patrick, then I would consider it. As it stands, I have yet to encounter any situation where it would be more beneficial to melee myself than to not do so. If I want to whack things with pointy objects, I have other jobs that specialize in that. XD

I wasn't really expecting much out of AF+3 for either of my two fav jobs (BST and BRD), and my expectations were fulfilled on both fronts.. Rather confused why exactly it is that Reward potency values on body/feet were both further increased for instance, as the normal 119+1 versions were already well over cap when paired. Was kinda hoping body would get converted to potency II at least. ><;; And while you may consider this set a DD set, I see no real attack+ to speak of, its nothing but acc+ ._.;; Even last month's Ambuscade set has more non-niche uses than what we got on AF119+3 ><;;

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I don't disagree in the flaw with the design, personally, the fact that BST has no real melee traits or JA's other than Fencer is disappointing but let's be honest here, just having ACC on their gear does not even remotely allow SMN to melee as well as BST, even minus traits, can.

The way I see it AF gear has always been poor for most jobs bar a few, to see what was put on it though does make me wonder about Relic, and Emp though as they were always the better gear and if they follow the same pattern could be immensely good sets again.

And yeah, more Reward potency is ridiculous. Should have stuck to what they had and as you said, added "Reward" Potency II for the rest.

All I can say is I'm sick of SE doing stuff like this to my favorite job...

Charm and Tame on the AF is just an insult at this point. What were they thinking?

AF should have job defining and enhancing attributes. SAM AF for example gets REGAIN, Zanshin, Hasso, Meditate Duration to name just a few.

If they want us to fight alongside the Pet we need Accuracy and Attack for both Pet and Master and lots of it. The only set that works as a TP set for both Pet and Master is the Tahli'ah Set but it has no Attack at all. It's pure Accuracy.

We have a TP Set (Tali'Ah)

We need a Weaponskill Set with Acc/Attack/Weaponskill Damage+% for the Master. (Can use Valorous if Lucky)
We need a Physical Ready Set with Accuracy and Attack for the Pet (Can use Valorous if Lucky)
We need a Magical Ready Set with M.Acc and MABfor the Pet. (Can use Valorous if Lucky)

We need an alternative for Charmer's Merlin and Desultor Tassets. One of the AF pieces should have gotten Ready recast -5/-10 for +2/+3 respectively.
We need Reward II on the AF not Reward as we already easily cap on Reward.

Click me for Spreadsheet with BST AF+3 compared to Summoner AF+2/3

Summary:
Beastmaster has the exact same Accuracy as Summoner: 240 and gets +46 Evasion, -114 Magic Evasion, +7% haste

Beastmaster Pet -149 accuracy, -219 Magic Accuracy, -5% Haste, +70 Attack however SMN get's +26 Bloodpact Damage which will make up for the 70 Attack.

Summoner gets the identical amount of Accuracy but also gets 149 more Accuracy an 219 more Magic Accuracy for the Pet. How does that make any sense?

Someone at SE is not paying attention or simply hates BST. I can't think of any other reason why else they would give BST half the attributes SMN or the rest of the jobs get.

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Originally Posted by Skyrant_Kangaroomouse

Click me for Spreadsheet with BST AF+3 compared to Summoner AF+2/3

Summary:
Beastmaster has the exact same Accuracy as Summoner: 240 and gets +46 Evasion, -114 Magic Evasion, +7% haste

Beastmaster Pet -149 accuracy, -219 Magic Accuracy, -5% Haste, +70 Attack however SMN get's +26 Bloodpact Damage which will make up for the 70 Attack.

Summoner gets the identical amount of Accuracy but also gets 149 more Accuracy an 219 more Magic Accuracy for the Pet. How does that make any sense?

Someone at SE is not paying attention or simply hates BST. I can't think of any other reason why else they would give BST half the attributes SMN or the rest of the jobs get.

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I've got a feeling they just don't want to deal with the whiners who'd get loud about BST functioning properly. They nerfed BST hard last year w/ the JA range reductions in response to whiners then, why would they want to reopen that can of worms at this point? They also have a bit of a bad history with pet jobs in general. I imagine that they find it hard to balance them so that they don't put out too much more damage than a melee who is only a single source of damage output while also trying to allow the jobs to not-suck. They seem to have an idea about how to do so with SMN and PUP, since all they get are steady buffs for at least the last year, but are afraid of the backlash if they did the same for BST. I don't think that the devs actually "hate BST", but probably do see it as a headache at this point and just don't want to touch it. >_>

This is the only explanation I can come up with for a lot of the design decisions about several jobs, BST included. Have you looked at BRD AF119+3? The ONLY thing that's "good" about it is tons of macc and an extra Lullaby+1.. Lots of extra skill and stuff, but skill is capped naked on 99% of songs so that does as much for BRD as extra Reward potency does for BST... I guess we can take comfort in knowing we are not the only job that SE doesn't care about? :/

Most of the SMN that I know who I've heard complain about acc issues were complaining due to the difficulty to keep up AMs. The actual damage output from SMN melee doesn't matter (even to the SMNs themselves) they just want TP to keep up pet buffs basically. Lack of master attack or other dmg stats doesn't matter as long as they are not hitting for zero.

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Originally Posted by Skyrant_Kangaroomouse

Fun when we still had to charm pets, when we carefully selected pets to get an advantage against mobs,

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75 cap bst was great and some of the best fun I've ever had in FFXI. After 75 cap the job has been an abomination.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

I've got a feeling they just don't want to deal with the whiners who'd get loud about BST functioning properly. They nerfed BST hard last year w/ the JA range reductions in response to whiners then, why would they want to reopen that can of worms at this point?

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Whiners? The job was absolutely disgusting - you could literally hold down your dawn muslum macro with a paper weigh and go AFK and come back to a dead boss.

That type gameplay needs to NEVER come back, EVER.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Whiners? The job was absolutely disgusting - you could literally hold down your dawn muslum macro with a paper weigh and go AFK and come back to a dead boss.

That type gameplay needs to NEVER come back, EVER.

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That sounds like it was an issue with the item "Dawn Mulsum", not with the job itself. Pet white dmg was never extreme enough to allow one to "go AFK and come back to a dead boss." DMs aren't exactly dirt cheap, don't stack, and have to be used from inventory. Even if you had a rapidfire keyboard, trying to do what you suggested would not be able to work as you would end up burning thru them faster than what auto-attack damage is capable of. I don't know about you, but I would most definitely hesitate to consider blowing 2mil+ in non-stackable consumables per T1 fight as a valid strategy. Interesting note tho, not one thing has changed to prevent such a strategy from being used right now. <_<;;

I've gone thru the old posts when I first came back last year (right before the nerf kicked in btw. By the time I had BST unlocked, the nerf was already in place, and I've always had to deal with the myriad problems it created.) The majority of the complaints at the time boiled down to BST being able to succeed in lower-end endgame w/ less extreme gear requirements (namely accuracy and dt-) when compared to melees, or complaints about Bertha's AOE being too powerful, or the amount of damage that Ready moves do in general. The JA range nerf did nothing to address any of the complaints directly, but "solved" the issue by making BST far less attractive to play for those not already invested in the job. They managed to chase off the bandwagoners, and fewer BSTs running around meant that those issues became less visible, hence less complained about. Our damage output remained the same, it just became harder to actually play the job due to wonky distance bugs.

As an aside, my BLU out dps's my BST, and can crank out Light SCs faster than Patrick can crank out Fusions for more WS damage AND more SC damage. ^^;; My THF is about on par with my BST, and can crank out massive Darkness. When I first came back last year, one of the first CP parties I was in (as BLM) had a DNC who was cranking out self double Darkness for 99999.. I honestly never really understood why the devs bothered to nerf BST at all given what other jobs were capable of at the time.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

As an aside, my BLU out dps's my BST, and can crank out Light SCs faster than Patrick can crank out Fusions for more WS damage AND more SC damage. ^^;; My THF is about on par with my BST, and can crank out massive Darkness. When I first came back last year, one of the first CP parties I was in (as BLM) had a DNC who was cranking out self double Darkness for 99999.. I honestly never really understood why the devs bothered to nerf BST at all given what other jobs were capable of at the time.

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Because they have a risk factor of being in range, BST never had that on top of a 87.5% -DT cap. While stil dishing out ridiculous damage, only issue was they went above and beyond and reduced the range for JA usage way too low, which results in problems even when standing on top of your pet.

That said, you wont be hard pushed to find most people are not to fond of how OP BLU is either.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

As an aside, my BLU out dps's my BST, and can crank out Light SCs faster than Patrick can crank out Fusions for more WS damage AND more SC damage. ^^;; My THF is about on par with my BST, and can crank out massive Darkness. When I first came back last year, one of the first CP parties I was in (as BLM) had a DNC who was cranking out self double Darkness for 99999.. I honestly never really understood why the devs bothered to nerf BST at all given what other jobs were capable of at the time.

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All of those jobs have to be in range of the enemy and actually have to deal with enemies mechanics, bst didn't.

Bluemage is completely broken.

An item being expensive doesn't mean it's ok that you can sit 20 yards away and literally not do anything but mash your sic and dawn muslum button over and over again ignoring 100% of an enemies mechanics and then collect loot.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Whiners? The job was absolutely disgusting - you could literally hold down your dawn muslum macro with a paper weigh and go AFK and come back to a dead boss.

That type gameplay needs to NEVER come back, EVER.

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If by literally you mean not at all then sure. Because guess what nothing has changed that would stop what you just said. The reason why it wouldn't work is because 1. Non ready dmg is horrible. A trust would do as much. 2. Those things don't stack and even with a full invent you'd run out before then.

What would really happen if you did that is you'd end up doing like maybe 100 dps. Waste 1million gil over the course of a couple minute and after that your pet will slowly die while the boss is still at 98%

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

An item being expensive doesn't mean it's ok that you can sit 20 yards away and literally not do anything but mash your sic and dawn muslum button over and over again ignoring 100% of an enemies mechanics and then collect loot.

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First off it's ready not sic. Stop making it so obvious you haven't played the job since 75. 2nd dawn muslum was again crap. It was a last resort for a small portion of the bst community usually while soloing if reward was down and was gunna die. 3rd how is that any worse than rng literally not do anything but mash the shoot and ws button ignoring anything? Or how about smn just mashing bp button and resmn if it dies. Or blms just casting like 3 nukes and a couple of aspirs over the course of a whole fight. Or pup just afking until maneuvers are up every 5 minutes. Or heck me afking most the time tanking as pld. Or geos being one of the most OP job and just keeping up 1 debuff and 1 buff at a time. Or geo just using vex/attunment to make the whole pt ignore most of an enemies mechanics. Or geo doing anything

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Originally Posted by Jakuk

BST never had that on top of a 87.5% -DT cap. While stil dishing out ridiculous damage,

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While that is the pet cap it's completely impossible for jugs to reach it outside of atmas. I forget the exact gearing at the time but total achievable dt was around 50-60%. A couple of meh jugs had some mdt or bdt on them. And several had sdts to specific elements and/or physical dmg types... but they also often came with other weaknesses too.

Also let's not exaggerate. The dmg was good but not ridiculous. Plenty of other jobs do great and smn now destroys that while staying out of range itself

Please don't defend the pre-nerf bst playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Urmom

Also let's not exaggerate. The dmg was good but not ridiculous. Plenty of other jobs do great and smn now destroys that while staying out of range itself

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While risking danger, and SMN I've stated before is ridiculous and will end up under the nerf hammer just as BST did when it got so powerful.

And sorry it was ridiculous. You're basing people now on pre-BST nerf.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Please don't defend the pre-nerf bst playstyle.

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The thing is, that is the exact same playstyle used now, with the addition of the master having to run in/out of aoe range to pop Ready/Reward on some fights. Literally nothing was changed that directly affected numerical damage output. All that the nerf did was make it much more glitchy and annoying to play, and emphasized the racial inequality for the job.
Taru vs Galka: Taru has ~1y less range on JAs than a Galka will, due to player model size. Same as always most likely, but it is far more noticeable with the drastically reduced range now.

I honestly wouldn't mind the Ready distance being so low IF it was exactly the same for all races AND they restored the distance to all the other JAs that got nerfed as collateral damage.

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Originally Posted by Jakuk

While risking danger, and SMN I've stated before is ridiculous and will end up under the nerf hammer just as BST did when it got so powerful.

And sorry it was ridiculous. You're basing people now on pre-BST nerf.

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Not likely, but don't you dare jinx SMN...

SMN takes a lot of work to get those numbers as it is. More than likely the SMN has a complete Apogee set, the Nirvana, lots; if not maxed JP, all of the +BP DMG stuff. And even then, the major thing that will keep SMN back is the lack of AoE DMG. That is the reason that BST got nerfed so badly, The Grasshopper and it's destructive AoE power. While I feel that SE took the hammer too hard, as Reward's range should be put back to the way it was. Their choice of things is complete stupid at times. I've said before about the SMN AF Hands and the convert DMG to MP stat being dumb and useless. In that same vain, Charm and Tame are also useless at this point. BST will never use those abilities because of how the game is centered around BCNM and closed content. And 80% of the mobs added from Abyssea on can't even be charmed.

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Originally Posted by Zeargi

Not likely, but don't you dare jinx SMN...

SMN takes a lot of work to get those numbers as it is. More than likely the SMN has a complete Apogee set, the Nirvana, lots; if not maxed JP, all of the +BP DMG stuff. And even then, the major thing that will keep SMN back is the lack of AoE DMG. That is the reason that BST got nerfed so badly, The Grasshopper and it's destructive AoE power. While I feel that SE took the hammer too hard, as Reward's range should be put back to the way it was. Their choice of things is complete stupid at times. I've said before about the SMN AF Hands and the convert DMG to MP stat being dumb and useless. In that same vain, Charm and Tame are also useless at this point. BST will never use those abilities because of how the game is centered around BCNM and closed content. And 80% of the mobs added from Abyssea on can't even be charmed.

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So did BST, Need near perfect augmented gear, or most jobs for that matter.

The thing wrong with BST and now with SMN is the "Stay out or range safe, deal crazy DMG, win) mentality they use.

If AoE was the problem they would have just nerfed the DMG on it, they didn't they nerfed the range so they NEEDED to be in danger.

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Originally Posted by Jakuk

So did BST, Need near perfect augmented gear, or most jobs for that matter.

The thing wrong with BST and now with SMN is the "Stay out or range safe, deal crazy DMG, win) mentality they use.

If AoE was the problem they would have just nerfed the DMG on it, they didn't they nerfed the range so they NEEDED to be in danger.

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I also played BST, and it was far easier to get that DMG. You would think they would have changed damage of it, but that grasshopper became the main staple of many bandwagoning people (It's still is today). BST don't have a magic skill tied to much of their abilities, and nothing SMN can, so far, do can lower their BP Timer beyond 21 Seconds. BST's Attack command every 10 seconds was crazy. And of course SMN is going to stay out of range and be safe, they're still tied with having the Worse DEF in the entire game. SMN also has far more checks to get through, The Prep cost for Avatars, the MP Cost for abilities, the Skill Raising required to have decent buffs and acc, the high amount of gear for BP DMG/Prep/BP Recast/MACC/ACC/Fast Cast, Avatar's HP being so low & no main way to heal certain pets outside of Dawn Mulsum. Won't get me wrong, BST played the same way as SMN for years on end, and it was dumb to change it out off the blue without the proper means for it to be prepared for that change with new JAs and JTs. But BST was definitely meant to be a DD class, it just needs to be compensated for that so it can work. There needs to be more Master/Pet shared gear. There needs to Job traits to help BST. The list can go on, but this AF Reforge is the least of BST problem at the moment.

TL: DR - Leaves SMN alone, fix BST

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Originally Posted by Jakuk

While risking danger, .

And sorry it was ridiculous. You're basing people now on pre-BST nerf.

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Pup, smn, rng, cor, all nukers can deal good dmg without risking danger

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Originally Posted by Zeargi

I also played BST, and it was far easier to get that DMG. You would think they would have changed damage of it, but that grasshopper became the main staple of many bandwagoning people (It's still is today). BST don't have a magic skill tied to much of their abilities, and nothing SMN can, so far, do can lower their BP Timer beyond 21 Seconds. BST's Attack command every 10 seconds was crazy. And of course SMN is going to stay out of range and be safe, they're still tied with having the Worse DEF in the entire game. SMN also has far more checks to get through, The Prep cost for Avatars, the MP Cost for abilities, the Skill Raising required to have decent buffs and acc, the high amount of gear for BP DMG/Prep/BP Recast/MACC/ACC/Fast Cast, Avatar's HP being so low & no main way to heal certain pets outside of Dawn Mulsum. Won't get me wrong, BST played the same way as SMN for years on end, and it was dumb to change it out off the blue without the proper means for it to be prepared for that change with new JAs and JTs. But BST was definitely meant to be a DD class, it just needs to be compensated for that so it can work. There needs to be more Master/Pet shared gear. There needs to Job traits to help BST. The list can go on, but this AF Reforge is the least of BST problem at the moment.

TL: DR - Leaves SMN alone, fix BST

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Easier yes. But not quite as crazy as made seem.

Let's start with 21 sec vs 10. Yes bst can use ja more often assuming they were using single charge moves... they also do a lot less dmg (especially the magical) and have worse skillchain properties for the physical. But like that grasshopper you are fond of was 20 seconds to AoE. Though really grasshopper is mostly good for AoEing or run wild should be using other pets if not.

Not sure what the def has to do with anything. Both jobs (and really a lot of jobs that aren't gearing for survival) are pretty squishy in range especially considering most the worst AoEs are magical/breath.

I'll give you the little time it takes you to raise skill. As far as perp.... well bst had to have an idle dt set so that kind of equals out. But to really take it to the same level you do for smn you needed a lot of gearing to. You say smn needed bp dmg/prep/bp recast/macc/acc/fast cast bst needed acc/att/macc/mab/tp bonus/ready recast/reward potency/recast/dt/haste/da. Yes bst could bandwagon and barely get by with a lower gear threshold but what you are describing isn't a just getting by bandwagon smn. High end bst was just as much work as high end smn

Healing avatars is really a trade off for the ability to resmning them immediately. Makes them worse at tanking but in terms of DDing it's a wash. Honestly I'd rather have a say 1 minute bestial loyalty than the ability to use reward.

As far as the reforge af. What others seem to be arguing is that it doesn't have those shared master/pet stats that for some reason smn a job that isn't a DD and can stand back did get which makes little sense considering SE's stance on bst being a dd. Like if bst is supposed to be more of a dd why do they keep missing all these gear opportunities to make it so. Because pets are still strong enough that you aren't going to gimp your pets dmg in order to increase the masters so the only way to really make it happen is to give good pet and master stats

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Originally Posted by Urmom

Easier yes. But not quite as crazy as made seem.

Let's start with 21 sec vs 10. Yes bst can use ja more often assuming they were using single charge moves... they also do a lot less dmg (especially the magical) and have worse skillchain properties for the physical. But like that grasshopper you are fond of was 20 seconds to AoE. Though really grasshopper is mostly good for AoEing or run wild should be using other pets if not.

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BST is still strong. The only thing that changed is the range in which you have to be to use it, making annoying as hell to play as. When SR was still a thing, people were still taking the nerf BST to do the fights. and your 20 sec thing still doesn't cost you anything but charges. A SMN is tied to the Timer, as well, as their MP Pool. We can't go balls to the wall all the time.

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Originally Posted by Urmom

Not sure what the def has to do with anything. Both jobs (and really a lot of jobs that aren't gearing for survival) are pretty squishy in range especially considering most the worst AoEs are magical/breath.

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DEF has everything to do about it. Both Magical and Physical. As a BST you are more likely to survive more auto attacks than I will. You wouldn't ask a BLM to stand close and cast, why would you expect a SMN to do it? Yes, BST job is heavily tied to your pet, but you can still melee and WS if you happen to loss a pet for a while. If a SMN tried to do that, it'd be comical at best.

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Originally Posted by Urmom

I'll give you the little time it takes you to raise skill. As far as perp.... well bst had to have an idle dt set so that kind of equals out. But to really take it to the same level you do for smn you needed a lot of gearing to. You say smn needed bp dmg/prep/bp recast/macc/acc/fast cast bst needed acc/att/macc/mab/tp bonus/ready recast/reward potency/recast/dt/haste/da. Yes bst could bandwagon and barely get by with a lower gear threshold but what you are describing isn't a just getting by bandwagon smn. High end bst was just as much work as high end smn

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-DT doesn't even remotely count to that of Prep, because that's also applies to SMN as well as EVERY pet job. And while Avatars get the natual PDT-50%, their awful HP makes up for that. I was also being generous, but SMN also needs Favor Plus, Pet Haste, MAB, an now even more so TP Bonus, Blood Boon, MP+, SMN Magic+, Elemental Siphon+, and DA for pets as well. Almost every Avatar is classified as a BLM out side of Fenrir, Diabolos, Carbuncle, and Cait Sith. The 6 Celestial avatars are completely identical to one another which means Shiva doesn't get higher INT, Titan doesn't get higher DEF/VIT, they can't be effected by their own favor... None of that. They also inherit the JTs that a BLM would get, which means no native double attack, no triple attack, no TH, no counter. BST may not have the Magical DMG, but they have lots of things that set their pets apart. They have the animal weakness matrix, they have a few pets that fall into the PLD, MNK, THF, and DRK classes, they have pets that resist weapon type DMG. SMN gets two extremely crappy Light Avatars that have paper thin defense/crappy acc/awful evasion/pathetic attack, One wolf that get High attack, and Devil that has really good defense. We also get no piercing DMG past level 10.

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Originally Posted by Urmom

Healing avatars is really a trade off for the ability to resmning them immediately. Makes them worse at tanking but in terms of DDing it's a wash. Honestly I'd rather have a say 1 minute bestial loyalty than the ability to use reward.

As far as the reforge af. What others seem to be arguing is that it doesn't have those shared master/pet stats that for some reason smn a job that isn't a DD and can stand back did get which makes little sense considering SE's stance on bst being a dd. Like if bst is supposed to be more of a dd why do they keep missing all these gear opportunities to make it so. Because pets are still strong enough that you aren't going to gimp your pets dmg in order to increase the masters so the only way to really make it happen is to give good pet and master stats

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Which again comes back to the sources of the problem

BST still works, but could be vastly improved. Either with giving missing Job Traits, gear that are for both pet/master, and re-tool merits and Job Abilities.

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Originally Posted by Zeargi

BST is still strong. The only thing that changed is the range in which you have to be to use it, making annoying as hell to play as. When SR was still a thing, people were still taking the nerf BST to do the fights. and your 20 sec thing still doesn't cost you anything but charges. A SMN is tied to the Timer, as well, as their MP Pool. We can't go balls to the wall all the time.

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Didn't say it wasn't strong just there just that you can't really say omg bst can spam a move twice as much. It's a false comparison. Annoying is a bit of an understatement. Dangerous and sometimes deadly is more accurate. Yes bst only has a timer. Smn also has wards woot. That said the distance thing makes is bst can't go balls to the wall either anymore

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Originally Posted by Zeargi

DEF has everything to do about it. Both Magical and Physical. As a BST you are more likely to survive more auto attacks than I will. You wouldn't ask a BLM to stand close and cast, why would you expect a SMN to do it? Yes, BST job is heavily tied to your pet, but you can still melee and WS if you happen to loss a pet for a while. If a SMN tried to do that, it'd be comical at best.

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Um what the heck does def have to do with magical? And lol what the heck does getting closer have to do with eating auto attacks? Anything that kills your pet is going to kill you 10 times over. And yes I would ask my blm to stand close to cast sometimes. Heck I might even ask my blm to tank as it has the potential to be the sturdiest job in the game. But really until recently you wouldn't have asked the bst to stand in range either. In fact you'd actually have the smn have to get in range on mid sized moves to bp until recently. You vastly overestimate what a little bit of defense will do for merely standing in range. At best bst will have a slight advantage on those small number of physical and fixed dmg AoEs that are strong but not designed to kill anyone not in full tank gear while smn will have an advantage in much more common AoE magical/breath due to it's greater amounts of mdb and meva and int

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Originally Posted by Zeargi

-DT doesn't even remotely count to that of Prep, because that's also applies to SMN as well as EVERY pet job. And while Avatars get the natual PDT-50%, their awful HP makes up for that. I was also being generous, but SMN also needs Favor Plus, Pet Haste, MAB, an now even more so TP Bonus, Blood Boon, MP+, SMN Magic+, Elemental Siphon+, and DA for pets as well. Almost every Avatar is classified as a BLM out side of Fenrir, Diabolos, Carbuncle, and Cait Sith. The 6 Celestial avatars are completely identical to one another which means Shiva doesn't get higher INT, Titan doesn't get higher DEF/VIT, they can't be effected by their own favor... None of that. They also inherit the JTs that a BLM would get, which means no native double attack, no triple attack, no TH, no counter. BST may not have the Magical DMG, but they have lots of things that set their pets apart. They have the animal weakness matrix, they have a few pets that fall into the PLD, MNK, THF, and DRK classes, they have pets that resist weapon type DMG. SMN gets two extremely crappy Light Avatars that have paper thin defense/crappy acc/awful evasion/pathetic attack, One wolf that get High attack, and Devil that has really good defense. We also get no piercing DMG past level 10.

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Well alot of smns don't have pet dt because it's not as necessary. I was being generous as well and didn't include any sets that would benefit the master in anyway. Most top end bsts have various melee and mixed sets as well as their own dt and casting sets for /mage soloing. My point was both need a ton of sets to really do well. Though you are doubling up on some of those. Monster correlation is sometimes nice when it comes up... but it only comes up by chance since it's effects are so small and often reduced/non existent on nms that you'd almost never choose a jug based on that. Speaking of those dmg types and survivability you know there are iirc only 2-3 of jugs that get that and every one of them comes with an extreme weakness to another dmg type? And for magical resistance only a handful have any and it only covers around 4 elements total. Jugs can certainly handle physical better but avatar could handle elemental better though not sure how that part came about in response to that but I believe I've gone into that. But again it's a fair trade. Yes jugs can last longer but they also have to last longer because HQ pets are effectively on a 20 minute timer and NQs on a 4 minute timer. If they weren't able to survive better you'd end up with a lot of bst running around twiddling their thumbs half the time lol. Tell ya what I'll trade the survivability for having range back and putting bestial loyalty down to 1 minute. No high level piercing dmg sucks... but so does having all your magical moves cap out at a little over 12k fully geared. The 2 jobs are different but it's not all one sided there is give and take. Every advantage you list on one you can find a similar alternative advantage on the other. Though overall I'd say bst is in between the other 2 pet jobs in terms of pet survivability and dmg potential. Not counting drg because loldrg and well it's actually a half way decent dd.

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Originally Posted by Zeargi

Which again comes back to the sources of the problem

BST still works, but could be vastly improved. Either with giving missing Job Traits, gear that are for both pet/master, and re-tool merits and Job Abilities.

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Does it really work now though? It's never had the dmg potential of melees and without those adjustments you speak of it wont and well they continue to not do that. It lacks the safety of real ranged jobs now. Rng making a rather nice ranged resurgence though that's probably mostly due to the magic resistance/healing stuff. Heck the distance nerf even effected it's ability to AoE without you and/or your pet dying due to pet constantly out of ranging while you are meleeing the mobs. Endgame wise it mostly fills a niche of being slightly safer than melees at just out of small AoE range while dealing physical dmg. Though even then top of the line gear smn can do just as well. But even if they did give bst a bunch DD orient jt/jas/merits/better master/pet gear/a 119 -ready axe etc it might not really be enough partly due to using axes. Axes really got the short end of the 1hd ws adjustment. Heck even single wield wars use swd a bit. Though on aside katanas also kind of lost out there comparatively and could use a bit of a boost though migawari making them relevant again lol. There's also the problem every pet job has with meleeing... and that's buffs only really helping the master or the pet. Generally best support for one wont be the best for other... though geo with frailty helps both a bit lol. Going back to the bst correlation thing one thing they could do to an existing merit ja/jt to help is to ungimp killer instinct/effects. Namely on nms all the effects associated with both even when the families line up are reduced or non existent. Put it to full potency on all appropriate families. Another thing is the pets themselves. Right now with exception of the one on the rabbit all moves are directly offensive in nature. Give some of the jugs more of that families buff/debuff moves and hey you might have something there. Could even do crazy things like the master borrows jugs traits so you can change your traits and buffing and such for the situation kind of like blu does. Actually give us a reason to use more than a small handful of jugs

My point is simple that while the jobs are similar they are still vastly different and have different needs and strengths. Yes, my SMN and my pet will take elemental attacks better, much like a BST's will take physical better. And as you were so kindly saying, yes there are only a handful of jug pets, but you still have a variety to choose from. My problem comes when people say things: "X job is too OP, mine sucks... you should nerf it," rather than saying: "Hey, this job has [Insert something here], can we get something similar," or "My job could really use [Insert idea here]". BST and SMN have always been the bastard children of the game. BST would never get parties because of the EXP for charmed pets, and SMN wouldn't get them because of BP Timer and people wanting a gimped healer. It's gotten to the point now that we can finally have both of these classes join things.

So rather than tear others down because you're bitter over this and that. Actually do something about it. THIS is why we have forums, it might not do something right away, but if enough people actually do something rather than just belittle one another, then things might get changed

a while back I posted this:

BST needs to get the following JT:
Accuracy Bonus III: 30, 50, 75
Max HP Boost IV: 35, 55, 75, 95
Shield Defense Bonus: 85

The Job Trait: Beast Healer needs to change to include: Copies 1 status enhancing effect per rank in merits to Pet When Using Reward

Job Ability that needs to be Add:

Empathy's Bond: Decreases DMG Taken By Master and Increases Accuracy for Pet and Master the closer they are together
Level: 90
Recast: 3m
Effect Time: 45s~1m

And 2 or more Shields designed for BST EXCLUSIVELY need to be added. They also need to change BST Shield ranks from E to C.

And those were just off the top of my head. There's scores more changes that need to be done and can be done.

You need to be asking that the Killer Traits get a boost so that they can be more useful than they are. You need to be asking to have Killer Instinct removed and replaced with a different Merit ability, and having that JA learned naturally like every other jobs "Circle" ability (Seeing how DRK, PLD, SAM, and DRG do.). You need to be asking for more variety of pets to use the affinity tree. You need to be asking for the better shared gear. Asking for more Job traits than what I've asked for to make the job function. Asking for certain JA to be looked at and adjusted. Instead of asking or wanting other jobs to be nerfed.

Side Note: You also know you can use 'Stay' after your pet starts fighting and it'll prevent it from running off. Not perfect, but does help.

Oh I wasn't saying we should nerf smn. Never was tearing down summoner just pointing out it's strengths. It's got a great place now. Just that since it can do similar and potentially greater dmg now from safety it kind of destroys the argument against bst being at range. Literally all I'm asking for is to make it more fair and balanced between them and a nerf wont do that because you will still have rng/cor, pup and nuking. Failing that to at least follow thru with their stated goal of us being melees by actually making it competitive with other melees. But yes I am a little bitter. To completely change the way a job has worked since it was introduced 14 years ago in a way that is buggy because of a vocal minority over reasons that clearly aren't an issue now is fairly infuriating

Interesting trait ideas sounds like drg stuff lol.

I sort of was asking the killer traits get enhanced in a way. Not in directly in the value but by ungimping them against nms it increases their effects there. Though adding something like the af3 body bonus to pets could work to actually make you want to use other pets could be nice. But yeah I have been asking for all that stuff since before the nerf. It's fallen on deaf ears though

And yes I know about stay. The thing is you have to do first figure out that's what happening and not just range being buggy then you have to hit the stay then hit fight then ready and by then you and/or your pet could be dead assuming it works. But it might not work since when you are AoEing pets it's highly possible that the mobs being in the way make it so you can't actually get in range of your pet. Can't tell you how many times I've died because of that stuff.

I want BST to be made better, I love all the pet jobs with SMN being my absolute favorite. But what we need to do is find the best set of things that could work. JT, JA and adjustments, Gear, etc. Then we need to get it to become a hot topic. Much like the vain that happened when I asked for the assault changes. If we can spread it to the JPN forums somehow we might actually get SE to listen to what is needed.

I don't think one gear set, which will take a number of months to complete, constitutes a final "BST is now a DD" set.

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Originally Posted by Mithlas

I don't think one gear set, which will take a number of months to complete, constitutes a final "BST is now a DD" set.

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Agreed. We didn't seem to have many doom'n'gloomers when Valorous set was released with zero native/non-augment pet stats. The continuing trend of devs not knowing how to deal with certain jobs is simply continuing. :( It will take a lot more than gear alone to convert BST to a melee-oriented DD than mere gear.