Rdm Debuffs are so useless, why?

Paralyze II and Slow II getting resists on bosses the whole time, why are These spells so useless These days? any reason? do u plan to do something or do u think These buffs are so OP that they may not be used on bosses? u can remove them from game then pls and give rdms something else? oh yeah, i'll spam one spell x10, maybe ill get some immunobreaks and it'll eventually land, of Course, because that is so useful....

I sadly agree with you... We have to do other stuff to do after we cast debuffs, we cannot stay going on forever on casting the same spell in hope it will inmunobreak, then land for just a few seconds, rinse and repeat

I think the bigger issue is how little they effect gameplay even when they actually land. Like just in sheer power level geo debuffs are miles ahead of everything else. And yet they are the ones that can't be resisted and the weaker ones constantly do and have tons of mobs with flat out immunity or immune without immunobreak

I dont mind Geo having strong spells but I do mind rdm being totally left out, rdm has A+ enfeebling skill, so U CANT DO THIS.... What else can a rdm do in endgame? frazze, distract and refresh+haste, maybe some meele.... u could argue that is good enough but i hate like u nerfed the Primary spells into oblivion, immunobreak System sucks, it it bad because the resist rate is way too high, even with high mag acc

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Originally Posted by Ceinwyn

I dont mind Geo having strong spells

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There is something very wrong with a job having some of the best debuffs AND them being guaranteed to land, as well as having the best buffs that can't be dispelled, oh and don't forget it's AoE.

yeah it's really not balanced between RDM and GEO at the moment. RDM should be able to have debuffs that work.

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Originally Posted by Ceinwyn

I dont mind Geo having strong spells but I do mind rdm being totally left out, rdm has A+ enfeebling skill, so U CANT DO THIS.... What else can a rdm do in endgame? frazze, distract and refresh+haste, maybe some meele.... u could argue that is good enough but i hate like u nerfed the Primary spells into oblivion, immunobreak System sucks, it it bad because the resist rate is way too high, even with high mag acc

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My point wasn't so much the strength of geo spells in absolute terms as in comparative terms. Even if you switched around to where rdms were unresistable and geo was resisted normally they would still be overall better debuffers. Some of the debuffs need massive upgrade or at least some sort of equalizing. Not to mention how things that buff geo debuffs (gear jas) work at full potency on all the spells all the time while but gear that increases enfeebling effect doesn't work on all spells and saboteur doesn't work on all debuffs and is highly gimped against nms. Fewer jas that enhance debuffs fewer pieces of gear that enhance the potency and by much smaller amounts etc

As far as resist and immunobreak system... the immunobreak system is more of a symptom than the actual problem. It's a very poor work around/fix to an inherently broken debuff resist system. It's there way of making mobs that are immune but not completely immune. Ie things that no amount of macc or es or anything will allow you to land but if you spam the spell enough maybe you will get an immunobreak to give a small chance to maybe get a half resist. And that doesn't even get into the stupid outdated debuff nerf that ups resistance sharply with repeated casts which makes spamming for immunobreak actually make it harder to land in the end. Or the fact you can't get more than 10 immunobreaks on a mob and it can take 2 before you can land a spell. Or partial resists where even if you did manage to land it it might wear off in just a few seconds

If they made it more mechanically like geo spells as in no ability to resist and you can have good scaling of potency with skill it might end up being competitive and give a real reason to have your rdm doing the enfeebling magic instead of any job /rdm

I do think it is silly that geo-debuffs are irresistible when noone else's are, but lets be frank: the debuffs GEO are generally using are stronger than what anyone else even has. (Frailty is much stronger than Dia III, with upkeep being much easier, Vex and Malaise are in classes all their own) I've never seen anyone ask a geo for slow or paralyze. It's nice when "Hey, Meteor got paralyzed" but it's nicer when the raid knows they're going to take minimal damage from it because of Vex.

I don't know if they can make using these debuffs desirable again, but I do know that the spells (Paralyze, Slow, Blind, Addle) already have the mechanics in place within their calculation to make having a well-geared RDM preferential to someone's refresh mule.

Maybe RDM needs a trait that makes their spells unresistable. 5 years ago, it would be ludicrous to say that, but GEO got it.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Maybe RDM needs a trait that makes their spells unresistable. 5 years ago, it would be ludicrous to say that, but GEO got it.

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Unresistable might be a bit much to ask. But maybe having a trait where Enfeebling Magic bypasses immunity so all RDM has to overcome really is M. Evasion. That way, there is no need to completely scrap the Immunobreak mechanic, since non-RDM's will still have to contend with it.

What I said needs to happen is this for a while now.

RDM needs a JA like BRD's pianissimo (Short recast time) to cast self targeting spells on others, and there needs to be a change to the En-II spells to act like the COR's elemental shots to strengthen enfeebling effect of the same type. As well as the change to the EN-II that lowers the resistance to enfeeblements that of are strong VS the current elements; much like the NIN's Elemental wheel, OR a spell like Dia and Bio that can't be resisted that GREATLY lowers the resistance to debuffs, but effectiveness decreases over time. PLD's and DRK's En-II spells can also be changed to work with Dia and Bio which would be great for those jobs that use those spells.

to be fair, immunobreak System is okay on some Mobs when u have to cast para or slow like 2-3 times to get it on, but if enemies have immunities or resists, so u have to cast it lik 10 times, there goes something wrong!

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Originally Posted by Ceinwyn

to be fair, immunobreak System is okay on some Mobs when u have to cast para or slow like 2-3 times to get it on, but if enemies have immunities or resists, so u have to cast it lik 10 times, there goes something wrong!

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I get what you're saying but if it only needs to be cast 2-3 times, the Immunobreak system is pointless.

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Originally Posted by Ketaru

Unresistable might be a bit much to ask. But maybe having a trait where Enfeebling Magic bypasses immunity so all RDM has to overcome really is M. Evasion. That way, there is no need to completely scrap the Immunobreak mechanic, since non-RDM's will still have to contend with it.

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Have to ask yourself the same thing I did... why is it a bit much? I'd say rework the ranges so that an undergeared RDM's paralyze proc's very very little and the slow/blind is almost indistinguishable from no enfeeble at all (same for Tier IIs).

I understand how GEO's skill works, how magic accuracy has no effect, and why it almost can't be dependent on magic accuracy, but I also know that the mere fact that it works that way is kind of an offense to RDM.

Geo's design is an offense to brd/rdm in general and makes no sense.

Hello, everyone.

I'd like to share the upcoming adjustment to enfeebling spells planned for the next version update.
Enfeebling magic spells Frazzle and Distract will get an adjustment where the duration of the effects from these spells will be extended to 5 minutes, and the base values will also be increased for Frazzle III and Distract III.
With this adjustment, even if the spell was resisted by half, the effect will last longer than the current if it lands without any resistance. (The effect of enfeebling spell won't decrease even if the spell was resisted by half or quarter.)

At the same time, we're going to decrease enemy magic evasion.
In addition, we'll be sure to not make darkness resistances too high for enemies introduced in future. (That said, it doesn't mean there won't be enemies with high darkness resistance as their characteristics.)

This will also be applied to the upcoming Ambuscade battle content schedule for February, so please be sure to give it a try.

Now my question for fellow RDMs doing current end game stuff:

Was the problem just high magic evasion on enemies or was it immunities to most RDM spells?

Because back when I stopped playing end game every mob we fought was immune to most spells I could cast, not even counting high resistance to the spells that could actually land.

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Originally Posted by Raydeus

Now my question for fellow RDMs doing current end game stuff:

Was the problem just high magic evasion on enemies or was it immunities to most RDM spells?

Because back when I stopped playing end game every mob we fought was immune to most spells I could cast, not even counting high resistance to the spells that could actually land.

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On this front mostly super high meva. Maybe a couple of soft immunities here and there but it's not the days where they were actively trying to take rdm down a peg by making everything completely resist everything. That said there are several other issues. Just sticking with actually getting the debuffs on the mob even if you manage to spam your way into enfeebling some a lot of them kind of don't care much. Like take omen... every megaboss has a move that removes all debuffs huzzah. Heck one Fu on top of having that move also removes debuffs when it does it's hp triggered buff absorb. Or say thinker even if you got every rdm debuff super saboteured and quickdrawed onto it with SV elegy you'd only decrease it's danger lvl by like .5% maybe.

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Originally Posted by Sicycre

Hello, everyone.

I'd like to share the upcoming adjustment to enfeebling spells planned for the next version update.
Enfeebling magic spells Frazzle and Distract will get an adjustment where the duration of the effects from these spells will be extended to 5 minutes, and the base values will also be increased for Frazzle III and Distract III.
With this adjustment, even if the spell was resisted by half, the effect will last longer than the current if it lands without any resistance. (The effect of enfeebling spell won't decrease even if the spell was resisted by half or quarter.)

At the same time, we're going to decrease enemy magic evasion.
In addition, we'll be sure to not make darkness resistances too high for enemies introduced in future. (That said, it doesn't mean there won't be enemies with high darkness resistance as their characteristics.)

This will also be applied to the upcoming Ambuscade battle content schedule for February, so please be sure to give it a try.

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If you going to make RDM good than i suggest you look at Geo Idris on why it's so popular. True facts Geo frailty 50+ defense down % and with bolster maybe 100% defense down? I have nothing against Geo and i truly love this job because it such a strong support. I don't even have a Idris Club but i support Geo.

If you were to greatly increase Frazzle III or Distract III this won't make Rdm popular at all but i welcome the it :/. People want to see big dmg coming from their weapon skills. To be fair it's best to increase the power of Dia III to 30% defense down or higher.

Their are others thing you can do for example:

Frazzle III = magic evasion down, magic defense down,
Distract III = evasion down and defense down

Akihiko Matsui and Sicycre make it really good so Rdm can be an option in shout when they can't find a Geo. =)

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Originally Posted by Sicycre

Enfeebling magic spells Frazzle and Distract will get an adjustment where the duration of the effects from these spells will be extended to 5 minutes

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Duration isn't very useful when endgame bosses do constant full erase on themselves. Is there any plan to look into this aspect of enfeebling?

That said, I genuinely appreciate the work going on here and I can't wait to see how the potency adjustments pan out.

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Originally Posted by Sicycre

Hello, everyone.

I'd like to share the upcoming adjustment to enfeebling spells planned for the next version update.
Enfeebling magic spells Frazzle and Distract will get an adjustment where the duration of the effects from these spells will be extended to 5 minutes, and the base values will also be increased for Frazzle III and Distract III.
With this adjustment, even if the spell was resisted by half, the effect will last longer than the current if it lands without any resistance. (The effect of enfeebling spell won't decrease even if the spell was resisted by half or quarter.)

At the same time, we're going to decrease enemy magic evasion.
In addition, we'll be sure to not make darkness resistances too high for enemies introduced in future. (That said, it doesn't mean there won't be enemies with high darkness resistance as their characteristics.)

This will also be applied to the upcoming Ambuscade battle content schedule for February, so please be sure to give it a try.

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Frazzle and distract don't solve the problem of rdm arsenal being useless.
This still leaves, para, blind, slow, dia and bio are still nearly worthless. Increase of the potency and duration of frazzle really don't do anything for rdm. If anything it actually screws over rdm more. First off the adjustment kills the need for rdm mythic m. acc with aftermath and death blossom added effect. Griov staff and omen grip are far higher potency than anything rdm mythic can ever match.
That is a problem, mythic should be the king. Not a random drop with random augments.
Lowering the magic evasion is needed, but it leaves all the people that made mythic on rdm kinda screwed on all their effort. The fix to this would be to either change the convert ratio of murg or add a new stat on rdm mythic for enfeebling magic effect +10%

Fix the potency of para, slow, blind, dia and bio. Frazzle and distract don't do anything to get a rdm in party as is, and now you are lowering mob stats even more which means rdm is needed even less.


para, slow, blind all need to be on a set % of effectiveness based of enfeeble skill

I.E. lowest possible para % would be 5% effective, the higher the enfeeble skill the higher it gets to a cap of 30% effective at 610 skill

dia and bio 3 both need to be 25% when 5/5 merits,
bio 3 should be BOTH attack down and magic attack down, DoT needs to be raised badly
dia 3 should be BOTH defense down and magic defense down, DoT needs to be raised badly

poison resist rate really needs to be fixed and poison potency needs to be increased badly

I have been saying this for a very long time now, I wonder how many more times I have to post it before SE realizes they have rdm wrong. Just like everyone told SE for many months Geo needs to be nerfed and they didn't see that either until recently.

Distract and frazzle are spells that require to stay on mobs for a long time as a over all party enhancement like bard songs and geo spells. you can't have it randomly wearing off because of resists going from 3 minutes to instead 30 seconds. rdm's main arsenal is Enfeeble magic, it has always been and only lost its value due to magic evasion being a "Went thru the roof because of higher endgame content deal", you can't spend all day trying to land a immunobreak spell only to have it still resist and waste the immunobreak due to it becoming less frequent and eventually nil after continued use.
Rdm does have enhancing spells but people invite brds,cors,geo because they do exactly same thing but better.
enfeebles will resist, however it shouldn't resist 90% of the time on some current endgame content, it should be more like 20-30% of the time for endgame with fairly decent gear with pimped people being more 5-10% resist,

Be aware that this adjustment is for brd and other minor enfeebling jobs like ninja etc as well, it will allow for better use of spells and make more use out of jobs that have become enhancing only jobs, honestly, cor needs it in a massive way due to quickdraw resists with a 50-60sec recast on its charges which it has a max of 2.

as for rdm mythic sword Murgleis. adding Enfeeble magic +20% sounds more appropriate. i will create a thread for that next or bump someone elses if it already exsists after this post, support it if you feel its needed

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Originally Posted by Songen

Distract and frazzle are spells that require to stay on mobs for a long time as a over all party enhancement like bard songs and geo spells. you can't have it randomly wearing off because of resists going from 3 minutes to instead 30 seconds. rdm's main arsenal is Enfeeble magic, it has always been and only lost its value due to magic evasion being a "Went thru the roof because of higher endgame content deal", you can't spend all day trying to land a immunobreak spell only to have it still resist and waste the immunobreak due to it becoming less frequent and eventually nil after continued use.
Rdm does have enhancing spells but people invite brds,cors,geo because they do exactly same thing but better.
enfeebles will resist, however it shouldn't resist 90% of the time on some current endgame content, it should be more like 20-30% of the time for endgame with fairly decent gear with pimped people being more 5-10% resist,

Be aware that this adjustment is for brd and other minor enfeebling jobs like ninja etc as well, it will allow for better use of spells and make more use out of jobs that have become enhancing only jobs, honestly, cor needs it in a massive way due to quickdraw resists with a 50-60sec recast on its charges which it has a max of 2.

as for rdm mythic sword Murgleis. adding Enfeeble magic +20% sounds more appropriate. i will create a thread for that next or bump someone elses if it already exsists after this post, support it if you feel its needed

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My cor is down to 32 second quick draw in one set higher in a dmg set.

At any rate even with the frazzle/distract buff and the resist rates of enfeebles being lowered doesn't actually say anything about the potency of certain enfeebles such as dia/bio 3, para, slow, and blind. Those are all going to be too weak to make enough of a difference to invite a rdm. Rdm enfeebles have been way too weak and useless since the end of the lvl 75 cap.

Greatly reducing the MND/INT of monsters would fix the potency of para and slow, but it would do nothing for the weakness of dia/bio 3, poison or blind. Even increasing frazzle it won't change the potency value of rdm entire arsenal. I see this as only an m. acc adjustment coming up next week. This won't bring rdm enfeebles back to the table at all.

There is a serious problem when cor can use rdm as a sub job and get a better dia/bio than rdm main with 5/5 merits into dia/bio 3

All of rdm enfeebles need to be fixed, not just frazzle/distract, this update will flop like the mnk update a few months ago.

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Originally Posted by Thorva

My cor is down to 32 second quick draw in one set higher in a dmg set.

At any rate even with the frazzle/distract buff and the resist rates of enfeebles being lowered doesn't actually say anything about the potency of certain enfeebles such as dia/bio 3, para, slow, and blind. Those are all going to be too weak to make enough of a difference to invite a rdm. Rdm enfeebles have been way too weak and useless since the end of the lvl 75 cap.

Greatly reducing the MND/INT of monsters would fix the potency of para and slow, but it would do nothing for the weakness of dia/bio 3, poison or blind. Even increasing frazzle it won't change the potency value of rdm entire arsenal. I see this as only an m. acc adjustment coming up next week. This won't bring rdm enfeebles back to the table at all.

There is a serious problem when cor can use rdm as a sub job and get a better dia/bio than rdm main with 5/5 merits into dia/bio 3

All of rdm enfeebles need to be fixed, not just frazzle/distract, this update will flop like the mnk update a few months ago.

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you are right, a adjustment to the potency ratio should be the adjustment for rdm, at least change it so rdm gets a ability or make composure ability enhance enfeeble magic much like light arts enhances regen and dark arts enhances helix spells. that'll make rdm more sexy in terms of enfeeble magic

So I see SE still has done nothing to fix rdm, if anything they made everything worse. nerfing geo in the manner they did was a terrible idea, it needed nerfs, but not m.acc nerf, brd is so broken you can cut the potency in half and it would still be over powered.

As a near perfect gear rdm all my enfeebles land on t4 nm's, but their is literally ZERO proc rate on para.

Slow still does nothing to change the fight, addle would have been good if monster m.acc wasn't so high it doesn't become effected by addle, and their spells can't be interrupted anyway.

Dia/Bio are still pathetically weak and require the use of merits

Poison is next to useless

Blind is 100% useless

Distract/Frazzle wouldn't have needed a potency buff if you didn't nerf geo focus/lang, duration was never an issue.

Called the update would be a flop a week before the update was going to happen, and I was right.

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Originally Posted by Thorva

My cor is down to 32 second quick draw in one set higher in a dmg set.

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How'd you get 32 sec recast when it caps at 35 sec?

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Originally Posted by Afania

How'd you get 32 sec recast when it caps at 35 sec?

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I use the ACP body and W mask, I saw that W mask can get -4 delay but I only have -2 on w mask. It all depends on what set I use as well, one set goes for M.dmg the other set for tp gain.

Doesn't Quickdraw cap at 40 seconds.

-10 seconds from merits.
-10 seconds max from a combination of JP and Gear (Even though it's possible to get -15 seconds.)

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Originally Posted by Jakuk

Doesn't Quickdraw cap at 40 seconds.

-10 seconds from merits.
-10 seconds max from a combination of JP and Gear (Even though it's possible to get -15 seconds.)

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Hmm no, QD recast cap at 35 secs, you can't go any lower than that even if you use both w head and acp body, that's why the ideal QD set only use 1 piece of QD recast- gear but not both since using both QD recast- gears doesn't do anything. Here's the possible QD recast- obtainable:

-10 sec from merits
-5 sec from W mask
-5 sec from ACP body
-10 sec from gifts

Even with all of above the lowest recast still capped at 35 sec. I have both -5 recast from W mask and ACP body, and all JP and recast merits, never managed to hit 30 sec recast, the lowest is recast is 35 sec.

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Originally Posted by Afania

Hmm no, QD recast cap at 35 secs, you can't go any lower than that even if you use both w head and acp body, that's why the ideal QD set only use 1 piece of QD recast- gear but not both since using both QD recast- gears doesn't do anything. Here's the possible QD recast- obtainable:

-10 sec from merits
-5 sec from W mask
-5 sec from ACP body
-10 sec from gifts

Even with all of above the lowest recast still capped at 35 sec. I have both -5 recast from W mask and ACP body, and all JP and recast merits, never managed to hit 30 sec recast, the lowest is recast is 35 sec.

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That might be the numbers you are getting, but the numbers I get are different, I get 32 seconds. None the less this is a rdm forum not a cor forum.

Edit: just tested and got 32 seconds still.

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Originally Posted by Thorva

That might be the numbers you are getting, but the numbers I get are different, I get 32 seconds. None the less this is a rdm forum not a cor forum.

Edit: just tested and got 32 seconds still.

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It's a RDM forum but it's still related to game.

I tested with both QD recast- gears and I got 35 sec instead of 30 sec. I checked wiki and it says the hard cap for recast-. There were QD recast- cap discussion years ago when 550 gift was out. Are you sure it isn't some sort of add on/plug in recast display glitch?

I'd be interested to see a SS of QD recast @ 32 sec using default interface.

I can confirm that the hard cap is 35s whatever you do. I didn't know this before and spent some effort getting the synergy item with -5s on it, only to find that the timer itself would "sometimes" show 30s but an extra 5s would have to pass before you could actually make the shot.

There seems to be a bug in the code for whenever you surpass the hard cap of 35s, which is most likely related to the 2 QD stacking mechanism. You'll see the wrong time shown for the next shot.

When they first added the 2 QD stacking mechanism, people were able to trick the timers into showing -2s or similar using the right gear and were able to QD over and over with no delay (you'd see CORs soloing ZNMs with QD kiting). They fixed that but there is still an issue showing the right recast timers when using more than -25s QD gear/JP/MP.

Again this is still a rdm forum and it is being derailed. None the less, I have tested it many times over and I get 32 seconds, that is coming out of the menu 32 seconds. Often for some reason or another if my timer resets for one of the QD recast and I use the 2nd I have seen the recast drop an additional 5 seconds for some bizarre reason and I get the shot off faster, therefore I have learned to stagger my shots to get even quicker recast.

I will no longer respond about cor in a rdm thread, if there is a cor discussion in the cor thread about it I would likely continue the topic. This may pertain to the game, but this thread is specifically for rdm, not cor.

I found it fairly difficult to get a screenshot right as my quick draw went off, having to jump back in the menu and screenshot the best time I got on a screenshot was 30 seconds, I couldn't shave off the last 2 seconds while trying to SS

I agree with you the discussion should be moved to the COR forum, just a suggestion. Open the ability menu, but type the command, /ja "Dark Shot" <t> etc... it shouldn't close the menu.

Afania just likes to argue no matter what forum he posts in, you should've just ignored him.

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Originally Posted by Domille

Afania just likes to argue no matter what forum he posts in, you should've just ignored him.

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I don't know what makes you think that I'm "arguing" when I was just asking for clarification about something contradicting what wiki/forum/personal testing. If 32 sec is really doable, then so be it. And I'll just accept that my character is glitched. But in this case Thorva wasn't even presenting an opinion and I wasn't presenting a different opinion - aka not arguing. There's no need to start personal attack in a clarification discussion.

Regardless I'll just open another thread if I still can't get 32 sec recast then.

could we get 1 or 2 new spells for rdm or would u Change some please? rdm's ability in enfeebling Magic is embrrassing at the Moment, the only useful unique spells we have here are distract and frazzle and These are not even great and niche spells u dont even Need in most Content, rdm Needs something to be worthy Support, rdm can barely do anything usefull in Content that matters that other Jobs cant do better