New Head/Frame

I believe somewhere at some point it was stated no new head/frames for our automatons, but since I can't find that post... I'm putting out there a possibility to add:

A Head / Frame based on a support only job, such as bard or corsair.

Elemental capacity already dictates spell types, so this isn't far from being able to associate maneuvers with a song or roll effect that would have an impact on the entire party... please consider this...

thanks!

Geo auto that can cast loupons!

Hello everyone!

While we definitely understand the desire to see new head and frame options for automatons,
this would require entirely new designs and graphics which are currently difficult to implement into the game, so unfortunately, this is something that we can't do at the moment...

Thanks for the looking into it Sicycre.

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Originally Posted by Sicycre

Hello everyone!

While we definitely understand the desire to see new head and frame options for automatons,
this would require entirely new designs and graphics which are currently difficult to implement into the game, so unfortunately, this is something that we can't do at the moment...

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Remember from when Rhapsodies was announced, that SE said they were running out of PS2 devkits? Those are what they used to make new graphics and audio assets. The patching we are getting now is not making new monster models or new animations or sound effects. They're just using existing assets for content they can program server-side. Automatons would need to recycle the current skins, as they can't make new character models for them.

iam guessing a support frame, maybe some geo/cor/brd. wonder what else we getting. we already got a tank pet (mp,cure would be sweet but k) whm, blm, rdm(make him cast refresh on others and more debuffs would be nice), blm, rng. so it a high chance if they giving us another frame, it would be a geo/cor or they may throw a nin and a run at us.

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Originally Posted by Sicycre

Hello everyone!

While we definitely understand the desire to see new head and frame options for automatons,
this would require entirely new designs and graphics which are currently difficult to implement into the game, so unfortunately, this is something that we can't do at the moment...

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After some thought and based on what was said, would this require new designs and graphics?

A support automaton based on the harly head/frame, using either a harp or horn (pre-existing graphics), using effects based on already existing song animations to apply said effects, attached to already existing maneuvers for intended effects (again, based on elements (thunder for accuracy--madrigal, fire for attack--minuet etc.)

I can see this as a possibility which does not, in itself require new designs or new graphics... >_>

or maybe I'm missing something.

RDM head + RNG body = Corsair Automaton! I mean, both those frames currently exist in the game, all the Dev. Team would need to do is add some sort of Corsair type AI to the Automaton and possibly make a way to let Maneuvers determine what rolls are used.

Well, one can dream. I wonder how well a COR puppet would work?

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Originally Posted by Siviard

Well, one can dream. I wonder how well a COR puppet would work?

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It would probably have a crazy AI that would double up on a 9 without snake eye but not double up on a 7 because it "likes to take risks"

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Originally Posted by Sicycre

Hello everyone!

While we definitely understand the desire to see new head and frame options for automatons,
this would require entirely new designs and graphics which are currently difficult to implement into the game, so unfortunately, this is something that we can't do at the moment...

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How about we don't change the designs or graphics and make a V2 frame, looks the same just does a different job - like the V2 Divinator functions differently than the V1.

Or make a more literal job-change based on the head/frame combinations rather than how its setup now (just for the love of all that's good, don't let this undermine how WHM BLM RDM PLD(WAR) frames function..... otherwise plz don't change anything and lets leave well enough alone lol.

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Originally Posted by Urmom

It would probably have a crazy AI that would double up on a 9 without snake eye but not double up on a 7 because it "likes to take risks"

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But 7 is a lucky number tho!

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Originally Posted by Sicycre

Hello everyone!

While we definitely understand the desire to see new head and frame options for automatons,
this would require entirely new designs and graphics which are currently difficult to implement into the game, so unfortunately, this is something that we can't do at the moment...

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I have to say, this is just completely untrue. The dev team adds new monsters and abilities to these monsters every month (i.e. Ambuscade). Some like the troll, with a mechanic which took time for players to get an idea how it even worked. No different than making one which is available to players.
There are key elements from this job which are missing mentioned in various threads from Curagas, to an AoE hate ability, update to automaton magic (dmg/updated available spells/etc.), spell interruption, GEO and BRD buff benefits. Many of these would allow Puppetmaster to showcase its versatility as intended the moment frames and heads other than other than Valoredge were confirmed.

8 WHM Trusts in which the UC trusts can cast Auspice, Esuna and....Curaga (even given to a melee trust)
16 BLM Trusts in which some cast '-ga' spells (even with the notion to magic burst the proper spell...better than automaton AI..as does Iroha II and KoH).
10 Tank Trusts in which 6 have Sentinel, 2 with AoE weapon skills, another with Rampart and...should I even bring up the number of /450 Cumulative/900 Volatile Enmity abilities Amchuchu has?
I can think of 9 melee trusts which have AoE and/or conal weapon skills.

Everything the PUP community is asking for is already in the game. We're not asking for a game changing ultimate weapon here. This community rep response just doesn't add up given what's already implemented. Even if the development took place over the course of a few month to decide which abilities to add and attachments to put them on, it's hardly a challenge to the dev team.

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Originally Posted by Ilian

I have to say, this is just completely untrue. The dev team adds new monsters and abilities to these monsters every month (i.e. Ambuscade). Some like the troll, with a mechanic which took time for players to get an idea how it even worked. No different than making one which is available to players.
There are key elements from this job which are missing mentioned in various threads from Curagas, to an AoE hate ability, update to automaton magic (dmg/updated available spells/etc.), spell interruption, GEO and BRD buff benefits. Many of these would allow Puppetmaster to showcase its versatility as intended the moment frames and heads other than other than Valoredge were confirmed.

8 WHM Trusts in which the UC trusts can cast Auspice, Esuna and....Curaga (even given to a melee trust)
16 BLM Trusts in which some cast '-ga' spells (even with the notion to magic burst the proper spell...better than automaton AI..as does Iroha II and KoH).
10 Tank Trusts in which 6 have Sentinel, 2 with AoE weapon skills, another with Rampart and...should I even bring up the number of /450 Cumulative/900 Volatile Enmity abilities Amchuchu has?
I can think of 9 melee trusts which have AoE and/or conal weapon skills.

Everything the PUP community is asking for is already in the game. We're not asking for a game changing ultimate weapon here. This community rep response just doesn't add up given what's already implemented. Even if the development took place over the course of a few month to decide which abilities to add and attachments to put them on, it's hardly a challenge to the dev team.

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None of the Ambuscade mobs or rewards have original graphics, which new heads/frames would require. That is the primary reasoning in Sicycre's post behind not implementing. Ability/spell choice, intended role, and how the associated AI attached interacts with all other available parts would probably not be simple to design and involve a rather large amount of work, but are only secondary issues to the graphical one.

Since the dev team has already said that they lack sufficient PS2 devkits required to continue adding significant numbers of new graphical assets, I'd say the response is on point and has nothing to do with your complaint points.

All of that said, how many PUPs would complain about getting new heads/frames if they reused the currently existing graphical models? If the communities here started calling for "New head/frame, old graphics are OK," then it's possible that the dev team could consider doing so since it would only involve new AI coding. Most of the complaints/requests that I've seen about automatons could probably be covered by new attachments as well, which would require no new graphical assets, so that could also be possibly feasible for the dev team to consider.

Note: One hell of a necrobump there. XD

To me, it's a new dat, an update to attachments and some testing. That doesn't sound like too much a hassle if the development is spread throughout months of prep. I'm more focused on the range of abilities than a new automaton in general as you see above. So ultimately, my post is more about the blatant doge from the idea of working on something which has been desired for years though they 'understand'(?). I'm not one to believe it would be difficult to implement new abilities on automatons as the dev team already has experience with these spells and abilities on alter egos.

Years ago they also didn't have the ability to put multiple stats onto weapons/equipment. Today, gear comes with multiple stat types and even a second page on many. Here..."can't" is an oxymoron.

We're not talking about only adding a few numbers to assign new spells/abilities, there would be new graphical assets required for new heads/frames which is the primary reasoning behind not implementing. This is the overarching stance that the dev team has taken. It's not just PUP that isn't getting new stuff, it's everyone and everything. ><;; Since RoV was completed and the current dev team took over, how many graphical assets have been added to the game? All that I can think of would be the 3x cosmetic weapons from the Master Trials. They've already explained before how there is a dire shortage of devkits remaining alive at this point and that adding new assets is not something that can be easily done anymore.

Since all that we can expect are reskins / palette swaps of existing models, would you be OK with a recolored model for new parts? Would you complain that they don't look different enough? How about the PUP community in general? Does anyone have any objections to recoloring existing models in order to get your hands on new heads/frames? Genuinely asking since I would like to know. ^^;;
If there was a concerted effort from the community to make it clear to the devs that reskins/swaps of existing models would be acceptable, then it might have a chance of actually happening. What they understand is that we want something they can't give us. And "can't" is quite applicable here since they "can not" work outside of the limitations of the PS2 framework.

There are many, many, community created models, animations, and skins that were created without the use of the PS2 devkits that work just fine when swapped into the game, I'm no expert, but is it not possible for the dev team to use similar alternative tools now that console compatibility is no longer an issue?

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Originally Posted by Selindrile

There are many, many, community created models, animations, and skins that were created without the use of the PS2 devkits that work just fine when swapped into the game, I'm no expert, but is it not possible for the dev team to use similar alternative tools now that console compatibility is no longer an issue?

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It's more whether it's worth the time and money to do so.

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Originally Posted by Jakuk

It's more whether it's worth the time and money to do so.

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That's not what they're saying though. >.>, if it's in part due to the idea that they'd have to create new tools, I'm saying they're already out there, if it's the actual manpower of creating the models/animations, well perhaps that's something that can be discussed with the community about what they'd rather have with the limited dev time we have available. Either way, I think we should have an honest discussion about it.

Also, I'm absolutely SURE the community would be happy to submit user-created models, animations, and skins, which would save dev time and they could simply handle the side of things they're already handling now, that's how a few games create content, Trove comes to mind.

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Originally Posted by Selindrile

That's not what they're saying though. >.>, if it's in part due to the idea that they'd have to create new tools, I'm saying they're already out there, if it's the actual manpower of creating the models/animations, well perhaps that's something that can be discussed with the community about what they'd rather have with the limited dev time we have available. Either way, I think we should have an honest discussion about it.

Also, I'm absolutely SURE the community would be happy to submit user-created models, animations, and skins, which would save dev time and they could simply handle the side of things they're already handling now, that's how a few games create content, Trove comes to mind.

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They're a business, they can't just use community submitted creations, or tools. It'd open them up to lawsuits.

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Originally Posted by Selindrile

That's not what they're saying though. >.>, if it's in part due to the idea that they'd have to create new tools, I'm saying they're already out there, if it's the actual manpower of creating the models/animations, well perhaps that's something that can be discussed with the community about what they'd rather have with the limited dev time we have available. Either way, I think we should have an honest discussion about it.

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I think this portion of the response is spot-on. I agree 100%. My original post, which was responded to by Sicycre [much appreciated], addressed the issue about not adding "new head/frame options for the automatons" as it relates to " new designs"...my point is really providing the PUP job with a "new" (new meaning concept associated with job type) based on support in the same vein as a bard or geomancer...

If we consider the fact that the assets used for a bard or geomancer in accordance with their functions are pre-existing, adding the requested modification to PUP (an adjustable automaton with access to these assets) would be an enhancement to an already customizable job... The automaton can perform the functions of "BLM", "WHM", "RDM", "PLD", "RNG", "WAR"...has access to "blink" similar to shadows of NIN... etc. all through various attachments.

The answer to this Sicycre is not a new head/frame combination as originally requested (existing head/frame can be used..heck, gives a new use for possible harlequin usage...) but "new" attachments that USE EXISTING ASSETS for Bard or Geomancer to provide support.

Please consider it.:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::p:p:p:p:p

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Originally Posted by Jakuk

They're a business, they can't just use community submitted creations, or tools. It'd open them up to lawsuits.

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You mean like the shield model they already made from a user-submitted skin? http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/fo...Design-Contest
Or the multitude of other games that do exactly that on the regular? Such as Trove, Second Life, Neverwinter, Everquest2, Star Trek Online, City of Heroes?

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post540422

&

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post540472

This seems relevant to what I drew 2 years ago. :p

Maybe one day, I keep true with my SAM and BRD designs

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Originally Posted by Selindrile

You mean like the shield model they already made from a user-submitted skin? http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/fo...Design-Contest
Or the multitude of other games that do exactly that on the regular? Such as Trove, Second Life, Neverwinter, Everquest2, Star Trek Online, City of Heroes?

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There are different legalities that would apply since there is a difference between soliciting user submissions under explicitly defined use terms vs using unsolicited stuff. Pretty darn sure that Japan has different Fair Use laws than the US, and I think all the games you mention are run by US based companies.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

There are different legalities that would apply since there is a difference between soliciting user submissions under explicitly defined use terms vs using unsolicited stuff. Pretty darn sure that Japan has different Fair Use laws than the US, and I think all the games you mention are run by US based companies.

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Originally Posted by Selindrile

Also, I'm absolutely SURE the community would be happy to submit user-created models, animations, and skins, which would save dev time and they could simply handle the side of things they're already handling now, that's how a few games create content, Trove comes to mind.

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Was talking about user submissions from the beginning, not fair use, all of the games I listed publish content that is user-generated and user-submitted.

After doing some googling I see many, many articles mentioning that few Japanese games use user-generated content and saying that more should, but I see none mentioning the reasoning behind this being anything due to legal issues.

There are some Japanese games that use user-generated content such as Little Big Planet and Super Mario Maker but I will admit I was hard pressed to find examples, and in these two the design tools are within the game which wouldn't be the case here, but regardless, the fact that they released the shield that was user-submitted should be enough to prove that using user-submitted designs should be viable.

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Originally Posted by Selindrile

Was talking about user submissions from the beginning, not fair use, all of the games I listed publish content that is user-generated and user-submitted.

After doing some googling I see many, many articles mentioning that few Japanese games use user-generated content and saying that more should, but I see none mentioning the reasoning behind this being anything due to legal issues.

There are some Japanese games that use user-generated content such as Little Big Planet and Super Mario Maker but I will admit I was hard pressed to find examples, and in these two the design tools are within the game which wouldn't be the case here, but regardless, the fact that they released the shield that was user-submitted should be enough to prove that using user-submitted designs should be viable.

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There's also the argument that a single-case contest barely counts as precedent. I wouldn't be overly surprised if they were to do a repeat and hold another contest for a single item, but again, outside of something like that, there are going to be issues w/ a Japanese company implementing user-sourced designs. :(

The best example of legal problem possibility would be the anime "Super Dimensial Fortress Macross". If I'm remembering my history on that one, the reason it was never licensed for NA distribution was due to copyright issues over the music since I think the composers retain the copyrights :? That's why it ended being frankensteined into Robotech. XD Not 100% sure of the details tbh, only that the Japanese production company does not hold all rights by default.

Given the apparent technical difficulty for the current dev team to add new models to the game, the graphics/textures are probably the least of the issues involved with getting anything "new". Which means that user submitted content wouldn't help much anyway. :(

I believe that the most viable route to go would be to start hollering for new head/frames that are reskinned/recolored rather than unique. If all that they have to consider is "How/what should it DO?" without concerns about creating new assets, then there might be a shot at seeing something actually happen. ^^

Here's a possible suggestion/option to develop for PUP automatons::
1. Make a series of quests for PUPs (restrictions to begin might be like "must be lv.99", or already have all other head/body frames, etc...) that allow it to get a +1 version of the now-existing frames/heads re-using the graphics for them, but just raising elemental capacity or giving +stats to them as the HQ bonuses, as how we got Abyssea nq/+1/+2/reforged items; they reused same graphics, just added stats.
2. Make a separate quest for each head and frame (10 total?) for those people that might use mage robots, but rarely use PLD or RNG, etc... so people can be selective.
... just a thought...

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Originally Posted by Dzspdref

Here's a possible suggestion/option to develop for PUP automatons::
1. Make a series of quests for PUPs (restrictions to begin might be like "must be lv.99", or already have all other head/body frames, etc...) that allow it to get a +1 version of the now-existing frames/heads re-using the graphics for them, but just raising elemental capacity or giving +stats to them as the HQ bonuses, as how we got Abyssea nq/+1/+2/reforged items; they reused same graphics, just added stats.
2. Make a separate quest for each head and frame (10 total?) for those people that might use mage robots, but rarely use PLD or RNG, etc... so people can be selective.
... just a thought...

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I like this. ^^ It's something that is possible to do, so it's something worth asking for. And quests would probably be the best way to justify the additions. Maybe instead of reforges though (since there might be balance concerns w/ straight stat buffs to existing parts or AI behavior replacements,) they are still same graphics but new items. This would allow for new AI routines/priorities without losing anything we currently have access to, and HQ versions would also justify adding some smaller stat/capacity bonuses.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

I like this. ^^ It's something that is possible to do, so it's something worth asking for. And quests would probably be the best way to justify the additions. Maybe instead of reforges though (since there might be balance concerns w/ straight stat buffs to existing parts or AI behavior replacements,) they are still same graphics but new items. This would allow for new AI routines/priorities without losing anything we currently have access to, and HQ versions would also justify adding some smaller stat/capacity bonuses.

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I concur. Can't see this being an issue related to lacking resources or concerns about adding "new graphics" ect... With the addition of Omen, I believe adding a "must be lvl. 99" requirement to begin this type of upgrade process based on automaton head/frames +1's would be AWESOME...and retied to the initial questing givers in Aht Urhgan...or even Nashamu.

once a user submits a entry for a design for a game, due to how most submittions are or competitions are, alot of companys when they take the idea take the legal rights to the idea too. you submitting it, however your submitting it for free with the rights of the idea being given to the company.

If the company lays legal claim in such a case, other companys can't take the idea even if its from the original submitter due to the original companys right to claim (Thats if they trademark or copyright,etc it of cause)

I know this thread is pretty old now, but Cor doesn't seem like a good one. If anything, a bard for support caster type which while in this mode can do light healing, but unable to fight. This would be good for those Pups I see around that are built with full master combat sets and be buffing party with 2 songs that could be adjusted by what maneuvers were active or attachments that must be equipped for it to use the particular song.
Also, for new frames. You could easily use graphic from the various jobs to make the frames, like bard's Relic hat as a new head.

Seriously though, the puppet has so much potential for customization, it is a little silly to not give players more frames. Even if it's strictly cosmetic, like making alternate heads that do same functions. Maybe a Drg's AF helm for a head and purple colored frame.

Second note: They're implying that new PS2 devkits are that hard to get, but you can find them on eBay and online to purchase yourself!

So not to sound cliché, but heck they are Japanese development and engineers!

Why can't they get one then duplicate it a couple thousand times for themselves?

Ok, possible copyright or Trade Mark hurdles, but giving Sony/PS2 a few bucks for each one they "replicate" so they can have more might be a way to get the problem solved and then GROW more FFXI development?

Just a thought.....

It is just an elaborate excuse, they simply don't want to spend resources into this old game. They could even use the same concept as sony with ps2 dev kit and replicate it and just not use it for resale, that isn't illegal.

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Originally Posted by Typral

It is just an elaborate excuse, they simply don't want to spend resources into this old game. They could even use the same concept as sony with ps2 dev kit and replicate it and just not use it for resale, that isn't illegal.

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They'd eventually end up in the wild, just like the real ones.

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Originally Posted by Sicycre

Hello everyone!

While we definitely understand the desire to see new head and frame options for automatons,
this would require entirely new designs and graphics which are currently difficult to implement into the game, so unfortunately, this is something that we can't do at the moment...

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2023 now and the XI dev team are now working from virtual production machines, how feasible is the new Head/Frame request now? I would like to see a dual wield and blink tank, or a Blue Mage Automaton, since puppets were designed based off the Empire's greatest mages.

Everytime I visit Japan and see the cherry blossoms, I think of new life, hope, and the future of PUP. I hope that one day we can at least have an AOE attack to help maintain control of enmity of large groups of monsters similar to a beastmasters "snarl", and that we can have an update to the number of automaton attachments we can add to the currently existing limit of 12.

Though I doubt they're going to be willing to do it, they make new vanity gear all the time, and people have modded the games graphics before. If the main barrier is updating visuals for the automaton, I really don't see how that is much of a barrier. They wouldn't necessairly have to use new models, can just reskin/recolor.z

PUP was my second love after SMN and I'd certainly like to see a boost to its versitality. Even if it does have more use today than it did back then, no reason to stop there eh?

The graphics don't have to be extremely intensive. A color/re-skin, of existing automaton head/frame, say ...a dark gray/purple tint? That's the trend in FFXI now, right? Make everything purple or grey, haha. :)

Some improved automaton functionality would be really nice. Pet jobs are not doing OK, right now.