The current weakness of a 2H DD compared to a dual wielder is simple: The DWers get to have 2 weapons, some of which have amazing stats (using taming sari's as examples), whereas 2H get to use a 2H weapon and a pathetic grip. Recently, JSE weapons have been able to be augmented, and the 2H weapons have been endowed with impressive amounts of accuracy. Relics also have a lot of accuracy on them, but their obtainability is anything but practical, so let's exclude these from the conversation for the time being.
So before the most recent update, the most accuracy you could probably expect on any 2H weapon was around 30, combined from any DEX boosts and accuracy boosts. This was about the same for Dual Wielders. The difference is, they get to use another weapon that has similar (maybe even more) accuracy from their offhand. Comparatively, 2H's best grip in terms of accuracy is +10 to my knowledge, with Tzacab grip as my example. Now, let's assume I'm wrong and assume there's maybe one with +15. Is that a game changer? Absolutely not.
If you combined Duplus Grip, Bloodrain strap, and Tzacab grip, you'd have ACC+16, ATK+10, DA+3, STP+6, and HP+50. The combined stats from three of the better melee grips still do not match a taming sari with poor augments in any department except Store TP and HP (which is not as important to begin with).
The bad stats on grips was explanatory enough back when weapons didn't have extraordinary stats on them. But now they do, and the stats on the grips have not been brought up to par. Introducing a few "legendary" grips could help bridge that gap between 2H and dual wielders. Example: ACC/ATK+15, STR/DEX+10, STP+4 or DA+4 or even TA+2). The most logical solution for this would be to introduce one in Sinister Reign, or add a drop to one of the T2's in Ru'Aun that can be augmented like the weapons. Will it fix all the problems? No. But it is a step in the right direction.
Why are grips so bad?
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02-28-2016, 06:51 AMcengealWhy are grips so bad?
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02-28-2016, 03:12 PMKarbuncle
Mmmm, they were never meant to be added as a huge boost, just a small boost... But, now adays, the powerful additional benefits of an off hand weapon are... high.
so I would be okay with them adding more powerful grips, maybe an Augmentable one in Reisinjima too. -
02-29-2016, 12:14 AMUlth
Basically your big gripe is that light armor melees tend to have more accuracy and Dex than heavy armor melees. You know that thing that is the way it should be since heavy armor melees tend to have more Str and attack. Your reasoning for this is flawed. The 26 accuracy difference between two perfect augment taming sari and a Humility Flanged Grip combo is not going to make or break you. It's even less of a problem after the recent update where low end 2 hand weapons got huge accuracy buffs as well as the way high end weapons, (R/M/E), were dealt with giving them more combat skill instead of attack and accuracy so it only applies to the one hand. Your solution to the the problem is short sighted. Add better grips to use with the non JSE or RME weapons. Only they will still be able to be used with the JSE and RME weapons.
The real problem is just accuracy in general. In the most recent freshly picked they acknowledge it is a problem and are working on solutions. What they will do about it, who knows. Hopefully something good, but they don't need bad misleading suggestions like this. -
02-29-2016, 02:35 AMcengealOkay, I never said it was a complete solution, merely a step in the right direction. Grips were never given any real attention ever since they started introducing weapons that have so many stat and attribute bonuses. The reasoning is not flawed. 26 accuracy can make or break you, it's just not as likely as 50 accuracy making or breaking you. It could easily be the difference between having a capped hit rate and a non-capped hit rate. The real problem is 2Her's need to give up more to meet the accuracy requirements than dual wielders do. 4/5 2H weapon classes for DD's have acc+50 or more options for their weapons after excluding RME's. RME's are being excluded because their obtainability is not practical, as I previously stated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulth
Looking at numbers gives you a very objective, black and white overview of a situation. However, numbers can also be misleading. What's ideal is not always practical. What's practical is not always ideal. The JSE weapons from Oboro are very practical. RME's are ideal but not practical. It is correct that accuracy in general is the problem. Personally, I think the entire accuracy/hit rate system could use a rehaul, but that's just my opinion, just like this thread being "bad and misleading" is your opinion. In fact, I would say your opinion is also bad and misleading, because based on your comments you didn't appear to read the entire thread. Or maybe you just picked and chose what to reply to, then ignored the rest. -
02-29-2016, 02:59 AMcengealWhen grips were first added the low stat bonuses were sensible, because 2H weapons at the time were more powerful than dual wielding, unless you were one of the few who had a Ridill. They also had a better accuracy:dexterity ratio. However, that's no longer the case. If 2H jobs were significantly more powerful than dual wield jobs, the accuracy difference would actually be justified. But the thing is, they're not. Like I said, this is by no means an end-all solution, it's only a step in the right direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
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02-29-2016, 03:17 AMKarbuncleThats what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by cengeal
When they were first added, they were never meant to be too powerful, but nowadays an offhand is much stronger than it used to be so it would make sense grips get stronger too.
I know you're addressing the accuracy component which of this, which is fine, but the change is the whole, The 22STR, 22DEX, 20 Attack, and 3% Triple Attack are considerable benefits. I mean, not to mention offhanding something like an Empyrean giving you +50DEX, dDEX woo, you're not getting that as a 2hander.Quote:
The 26 accuracy difference between two perfect augment taming sari
Lets be real, the strength of offhand weapons has skyrocketed and Grips have remained relatively the same and 2-handed weapons don't have higher enough stat values over 1handed weapons to compensate for these changes. More powerful or at least Nolan/Etc Augmentable grips should be implemented to help facilitate this. Same could go for Mage grips but I don't think they suffer quite so much... though Dual Wielding certain swords or daggers on RDM is better than a staff...
It won't solve 2handers weakened state right now, but It could help? Truth be told 2handers (and everyone else) are pretty screwed unless BLU somehow stops being a job. -
02-29-2016, 04:44 AMUlthThey probably will rehaul the accuracy/hit system. And you are right there was a lot of garbage in your post that I did my very best to gloss over. You act like RME are impossible to make. At least 2 hand jobs have decent options for relic. Mandau 119 III has less damage than a augmented taming sari and Mercy Stroke is awful. The Alexandrite for my mythic alone costs more than an entire 119 III relic weapon. Yet for some reason hundreds of people have mythic weapons.Quote:
Originally Posted by cengeal
The problem of relative strength of stats of 2 hand weapons to one hand weapons was already being addressed in the previous update. The augments of the JSE 2 hand weapons were significantly higher than the ones for one hand. I imagine this will be the continued trend for any new weapons that are added afterwards. I'm sure there will be grips added in the future as well and they will be improved some, but it won't be the stat vomit that he is hoping for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
As for offhanding RMEA, of the 6 legendary daggers there is a whopping 1 that does anything from the offhand. Meanwhile what ever aftermath a two hand job puts up they can rest assured knowing that it will apply to all their hits and not just half of them. If SE wants to change things and actually make RMEA weapons as potent in the offhand as in the main and have aftermaths apply to both weapons then by all means there should be better grips even legendary grips which takes x amount of mcguffins to make.
Also once the accuracy fixes come through and accuracy is no longer an issue the next big hurdle will be staying alive, and for that I think drk will be the next bandwagon with their 9,999 max hp from drain III. -
02-29-2016, 08:30 AMcengealAs usual, it was a pleasure talking to you. I said they were not practical, not impossible, as they take months to make, unless you have millions upon millions of gil lying around, which most don't. Most RME owners do a combination of farming/buying, which can still be a lengthy process. Hundreds out of thousands of people have mythics, which makes them a small minority. Okay, maybe not thousands, but they're still a minority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulth
I'm not really quite sure what to do with you anymore. You don't stay completely informed, yet you insist that your opinion is more valuable. You don't successfully discredit someone by saying "that's garbage, so I didn't read the whole thing". I guess my real question is: what do you hope to accomplish by being so abrasive and hostile? -
02-29-2016, 10:15 AMUlth
I think you misunderstood. I read it all. I just didn't address it all because most of it was incorrect, pointless, or already addressed in a previous discussion. Why am I so abrasive? Probably because of all the self censoring I have to do while responding to certain people on the official forums, on a account of the, word that rhymes with smascist, moderation rules. Or it could do with how I hate having to repeat myself, and after I pointed out how wrong this is in a separate thread, you had to go and make a new topic in which it is still wrong, but you try and qualify it as right by saying the most recent weapons don't count for some unknown reason. What do I hope to accomplish? For you to stop.
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03-01-2016, 12:25 AMJile
SE: Can we get new crafted grips from Escha/Reisinjima drops? :)
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03-01-2016, 02:30 AMcengealI'm not going to stop just because you think you're some sort of truth bomb dropping genius. Grips are bad and need to be improved. I never said the new JSE weapons don't count, only that they are a single option, and that by using them players tend to lose something (mostly base damage, but gain other things in the process). Now you're probably going to blow that statement out of proportion and insinuate that I said the JSE weapons were bad. You took things out of context, you implied I thought this was an end all be all solution, when I only said this was a step in the right direction, and you constantly try to insert your opinion as fact (Rudra's being garbage). If you don't like repeating yourself, leave it alone. You don't have to comment, you don't even have to read it. These forums are designed for people to express their opinions. Believe it or not, your opinion is not more important than anybody else's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulth
And I'm curious, what did you actually prove wrong? That JSE scythe + acc+10 grip has more accuracy than a capped taming sari + sandung augmented? You compared the best 2H acc example to not-the-best DW example. Better comparison would be Capped Ochu (+36-37) + Shigi (+77) vs Scythe (+85) + w/e grip has 10 acc on it. The combined katanas have more accuracy, so I guess I just proved you wrong, even though you didn't actually disagree with the statement to begin with. But I just proved in a single instance that dual wielding two weapons gets you more accuracy, so I must be right. -
03-01-2016, 02:33 AMcengealI would like to see that as well. Maybe give something new for crafters to maybe make an HQ version of it, and would give more options.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jile
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03-01-2016, 03:03 AMOmnysValefor
I'd just like to point out that as a Heavy DD evolves, they want to grow out of their JSE weapon into bigger weapons. If accuracy is an issue on a new boss, they could fall back to their JSE weapon and suffer damage penalties for the sake of hitting more.
If a dual-wield job is having a crisis of accuracy on high-level content, they can leave a potent weapon in their main hand and equip their Sandung (or whatever 1h weapon their job uses) as offhand and gain back critical accuracy.
Hitting the boss is more important than whiffing the boss hard, but dual wield jobs barely need to make that choice. -
03-01-2016, 05:10 AMKetaru
You know, we need to be honest and admit we're only talking about a select few dual wield jobs. PLD may mainly equip 1H swords, but they are more often have to equip a shield, so the dual wield thing doesn't generally apply to them. BSTs have taken to equipping Charmer's Merlin in their subhand to maximize their damage output, lest they equip it in their main hand and cripple their iLevel. But the subhanding of Charmer's Merlin doesn't actually do anything for "them" (and let's be honest, BST melee is garbage anyway, just like any justification for the nerf by saying BSTs were meant to melee alongside their pets) Other jobs like RDM and RNG may dual wield, but nobody ever complains about them when we're talking about dual wield jobs.
When we're talking about "dual wield" jobs, most people are talking about three- THF, BLU, and DNC.
I also see WAR thrown into the 2h group a lot, but that conveniently ignores two things:
- Historically, they have not always been a 2h weapon wielder. They just moved into that when 2h was buffed over 1h. Before the 2h buff, they dual wielded axes, and Ridill if they had the good fortune to have one. And they were highly valued for it.
- In fact, we talk about WAR now as if they can only equip Great Axe REMs. But that's not true at all. They can equip Farsha, for example, and can learn Cloudsplitter. And they have about as much access to MAB gear as BST does. Maybe not as much as RNG or COR can for Trueflight, Leaden Salute, or Wildfire. But the option is there, and for the purpose of skillchains, it's certainly a good one, especially since it can't "miss."
I just bring this up because I think it is ridiculous that people who complain about the accuracy issue are always trying to come up with ways to benefit their jobs at the exclusion of other jobs without who might genuinely need such a change.
While that is certainly true, it also means subbing /NIN or /DNC for the purpose of spellcasting, which is incredibly problematic when you think about how much you're losing from not subbing something like /SCH or /WHM. At least RDM does have several options for magic-friendly shields.Quote:
though Dual Wielding certain swords or daggers on RDM is better than a staff...
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03-01-2016, 02:48 PMOmnysValefor
Ulth,
The community likes to say that "noone's bringing melee anyway" because it's largely true. Bosses where melee are preferred basically have to take such absurdly low magic damage that people would rather take melee.
I know you know these things, but scholars don't feed the boss large amounts of TP in order to skillchain. They also aren't in critical danger from the boss, or in any danger at all most of the time.
The hate BLMs produce is so laughably minute and they have practically limitless MP.
All these things considered, melee need a leg up and 2h melee, being further behind dw melee, need a bigger step up.
It's bandwagoning that makes jobs have much greater representation than other jobs of the same role. It's something wrong with the job/role when you never see anyone on it. Right now, there's something wrong with all melee, and something further wrong with 2h melee.
I never see a Warrior, DRK, or SAM around Valefor. I've never had a War or Drk or DRG in any of my apex parties. None ever even ask. However, I get all the BLU and THF I could ever want. The only Samurai I've had in my Apex parties is Welfare (our own random shout-spammer, to be polite).
Yes, we're talking about players not in the best gear, because in order to get that best gear they have to get invited to the ladder of content and they're not getting invited to the content. Yes, true, they could level a different job. That's my attitude, that's what I do, but maybe SE could fix the disparity between a 2h weapon + augment + grip vs a 1h weapon + augment + offhand 1h weapon + augment.
The very fact that 2h JSE weapons have more accuracy means that SE recognizes there is a problem. -
03-01-2016, 02:58 PMOmnysValeforThese are fair points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ketaru
* PLD should basically never dual wield. It's amazing how squishy PLD is when he sets a shield down and without any offensive abilities from main job (hey, it's a paldin), it's just really terrible dps. It's about as effective as a bst not using a pet.
NIN should be included in there, but you make a fair point.Quote:
When we're talking about "dual wield" jobs, most people are talking about three- THF, BLU, and DNC.
Yeah I know what you mean! I'm a PLD Main with GEO secondary and blu for farming. A buff to 2h will be so epic of my...GS pld?Quote:
I just bring this up because I think it is ridiculous that people who complain about the accuracy issue are always trying to come up with ways to benefit their jobs at the exclusion of other jobs without who might genuinely need such a change.
Some people can actually see beyond their own jobs. Buffing accuracy on 2h weapons will not do much for me. RUN will be my next job, in fairness, but I already have great acc gear (of course RUN has access to gear that WAR/DRK/SAM/DRG generally don't). Maybe I won't be DDing on CL135 as RUN, but I don't want to either. I've brought the topic of the disparity before simply because I can see a gap.
SE deserves credit, JSE weapon augments were well done, but I think augments on all tiers for 2h weapons should be adjusted. If they'd rather do that with potent grips, that's fine too.