Endgame Content Design

Is there any current engdame content or NM that are designed around a PLD or RUN not having RME?

I see that there are many ilvl shields, but they are pretty moot and no one gives them a glance or considers taking a PLD if he does not have Aegis or Ochain. Is that simply because all of the item level shields completely suck, or that content cannot be done without?

It's neither, it's a case of a stubborn playerbase who expects that the user HAS to have these things. Given that RUN only has a single ergon and most do not have it, yet it tanks modestly well, it's not a NEED. Paladin has it a little rougher because Aegis is a large boost past the MDT cap, so people absolutely expect it to mitigate the damage and reduce how much support is needed. That's just a playerbase thing; I imagine a Paladin with a Priwen can do a good job, just gear for MDT and deal with a 50% cap instead of like a what, 90% one? (Not sure where it caps for MDT II, pardon). Ochain is a little more arguable given its block rate, but Priwen with Reprisal up is supposed to be better, to my knowledge.

Either way, it's less than it's "needed" but more that players expect it, because they want to go with the absolute best safety net. It's the reason that melees are generally shunned for a MB strategy now; less support needed and "safer" because there's less people in the front lines.

So its kind or a double edge sword. If you don't want to make an REM but want to tank play run. If you only want to make one REM for pld make aegis. Kensagaku is correct that priwen is a better shield then ochain since in newer content you have to use reprisal on both to increase the block rate. Priwens block rate isnt as good as ochains but it negates more dmg due to having more defense so overall it negates more dmg.

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Originally Posted by Aeron

So its kind or a double edge sword. If you don't want to make an REM but want to tank play run. If you only want to make one REM for pld make aegis. Kensagaku is correct that priwen is a better shield then ochain since in newer content you have to use reprisal on both to increase the block rate. Priwens block rate isnt as good as ochains but it negates more dmg due to having more defense so overall it negates more dmg.

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loldefense :( Actually Ochain should mitigate more per hit for being a size 6 shield while Priwen is only size 3.

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Originally Posted by Vinedrai

loldefense :( Actually Ochain should mitigate more per hit for being a size 6 shield while Priwen is only size 3.

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Are you joking? Reading your post it sounds like you're making a statement, but then there's the loldefense so im not sure or not.

If you were serious though Ochain doesn't mitigate more dmg over all then Priwen with reprisal up. due to the amount of def that Priwen has giving it the ability to block 88% of dmg on block to lvl126 mobs while Ochain only blocks 66% of dmg on block. Priwens block rate with reprisal up on lvl126 mobs is 90.63% while Ochains is 100%. the overall dmg mitigation by Priwen is 79.7 pdt, while Ochain overall dmg mitigation is 66 pdt.

Seems perfectly fairly that a shield that you can get in 1hr basically is better then a shield that used to take months (I understand its considerably easier to make Ochain now) and if you went through the trouble of getting 1500 hmp and 60 dross. /sarcasm

Credit for this information can be given to martel who ran these numbers.

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Originally Posted by Mithlas

Is there any current engdame content or NM that are designed around a PLD or RUN not having RME?

I see that there are many ilvl shields, but they are pretty moot and no one gives them a glance or considers taking a PLD if he does not have Aegis or Ochain. Is that simply because all of the item level shields completely suck, or that content cannot be done without?

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Any? Yeah most of the highest stuff pretty much need that. In theory you could possibly maybe get enough support to allow decent survivability without it... but adding more players causes hp to increase so dramatically that that can by itself make you fail. Not to mention you are shifting a burden onto gearing of the support namely getting those geos to have more potent spells. And your tank still might die because some of these nms are pretty brutal

That said pup can offer similar levels of durability so that's also an option. At least on things that don't use tactics that make pets not useful (such as doom or adds going after popper instead of tank etc)

I've tanked Zitah and Ru'Aun t3's on my RUN without any trouble or Epeolatry (not even done the first 100 HP bayld lol). And I think at least one of the Reisenjima NM's is only truly dangerous because of doom, but I'm sure one day I'll tank it and find out for myself.

Speaking of tanking without an aegis/ochain/epeolatry, I'm curious about other jobs tanking as well. Namely, while gearing up MNK I can't help but notice that literally all of MNK's JP gifts (outside of a whopping -10 to delay and the obligatory att/acc boosts) involve guard and counter. Between those, Perfect Counter/Counterstance, and relatively easy access to -pdt% gear, it would seem to make a rather decent tank (and it did back in the abyssea days).

Main problem though is magic damage taken. Wonder if that could be worked around, or does everything just toss out too much AoE spells nowadays?

I think the majority of NMs nowadays all of some spamable form of magic AoE or enfeeble AoEs. I think that's one of the drawback to melees participating in endgame things. Probably why people prefer lolAegis

Pretty much. I mean, going /run can make it SOMEWHAT viable, if the monster solely sticks to a single element, but that's hardly ever the case. Gotta have that sweet -mdt%

What aegis does is effective let you survive at lower max hps. They have eased this a lil bit by giving us vorseals. I would say that if you wanted to attempt to do endgame without aegis you would have to stack more hp to counteract the increased dmg that you are going to be taking, as well as once you hit 50mdt either through gear or shell that you also stack mdb. /run helps a lot when you know what specific type of element that is going to be cast against you, just use the appropriate runes and valiance.

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Originally Posted by Aeron

What aegis does is effective let you survive at lower max hps. They have eased this a lil bit by giving us vorseals. I would say that if you wanted to attempt to do endgame without aegis you would have to stack more hp to counteract the increased dmg that you are going to be taking, as well as once you hit 50mdt either through gear or shell that you also stack mdb. /run helps a lot when you know what specific type of element that is going to be cast against you, just use the appropriate runes and valiance.

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Not really sure that's quite accurate. True, higher max HP does help accommodate for taking more damage, but the rate of damage taken is still important even if one had 1000x our current max HP due to whether the rate of damage taken is more than the healer's healing output, and whether the healer's MP can last the entirety of the encounter.

Another issue I've noticed is that -mdt% can be just plain hard to come by compared to -pdt%. I'm not sure hitting 50% mdt is exactly feasible for most alternative tanks.

Sure it is. First off, you gain 25% from just Shellra V. That's half of your cap right there. Then you've got Twilight Torque and Defending Ring bringing you up to 40%, a good Dark Ring bringing you up to 44~46%, and from there 4% is not hard to find.

If you're going straight to 50% from 0, then yes, that's difficult for non-tanks. Good thing Shell V covers half the gap, unlike Protect only raising Defense.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

Not really sure that's quite accurate. True, higher max HP does help accommodate for taking more damage, but the rate of damage taken is still important even if one had 1000x our current max HP due to whether the rate of damage taken is more than the healer's healing output, and whether the healer's MP can last the entirety of the encounter.

Another issue I've noticed is that -mdt% can be just plain hard to come by compared to -pdt%. I'm not sure hitting 50% mdt is exactly feasible for most alternative tanks.

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As long as you aren't getting one shotted then it is possible to heal through anything although it is a lot more work. The tank will need a full cure received set 30% to help the whm with mp management. It is also recommended that the tank have a cure potency set and a full 80% cast time reduction on cures. Another recommendation I would make if you are going to do this on pld is have 5/5 on chivalry merits and the Caballarus Gauntlets +1 as well as ethereal earring, flume belt, and chevalier's arment +1 for mp return. I may ask my ls to try and attempt this just to prove it can be done (I would provide the pops) I like a challenge after all.

The best +hp gear you can get is Souveran Set +1 for the amount of gil that it would take you to get this set if you were buying it for pld you could make an aegis very easily so the question really is do you want to pay some crafter for highly specialized gear or build an Aegis or just tank on Rune Fencer.

Do note, Aeron, he's looking to tank on MNK. I don't agree with it being a currently wise decision seeing that the damage output is simply too much to just power through, but I don't think PLD advice is going to help him. :P

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Originally Posted by Kensagaku

Do note, Aeron, he's looking to tank on MNK. I don't agree with it being a currently wise decision seeing that the damage output is simply too much to just power through, but I don't think PLD advice is going to help him. :P

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I missed the first page and didn't read his post until now, but good point Ken lol. Although it is still entirely possible to cap out -mdt on mnk relatively easily. That 4mdt you mentioned can be gotten from an englufer cape +1 and you get the chance to absorb. See I still think it would be possible just it would be incredibly difficult to do on mnk. Player base is usually all about path of least resistance and honestly the path of least amount of set up is to just make these incredibly powerful items otherwise you have to get into very specific gearsets like whole sets that takes about as much work to get as to make an REM.

At one point I was going to attempt to tank on mnk too just fyi, I have a stage 3 mnk relic that I still need to get around to building.

To Urthdigger it would be a very impressive feat of skill if you were to tank like reisenjima t3s/angels/god/AV/reisenjima Helm nms on mnk. I noticed that you mentioned counter, problem with counter is that it has to pass an acc check which means you're not in pdt/mdt gear. You would probably need two sources of curing, which means another whm maybe? SE currently penalizes parties for having this type of outside the box thinking by increasing mob hp for extra party members.

Oh, I know it would be quite a feat if it were done. My initial point was basically that while SE clearly sees MNK as a tank (Almost every single gift enhances the job's defensive capabilities), and it does get kinda close on paper, in reality it's just plain not feasible due to some of the same reasons you need a RME PLD or RUN.

I would LOVE to tank on it, I love MNK and counterattacks are my preferred thing to focus on in most games, but I really don't see it being possible except in the kind of content people breeze through solo.

Basically, I feel that the current endgame that demands an Aegis for tanks likewise restricts what other tanks are possible.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

Oh, I know it would be quite a feat if it were done. My initial point was basically that while SE clearly sees MNK as a tank (Almost every single gift enhances the job's defensive capabilities), and it does get kinda close on paper, in reality it's just plain not feasible due to some of the same reasons you need a RME PLD or RUN.

I would LOVE to tank on it, I love MNK and counterattacks are my preferred thing to focus on in most games, but I really don't see it being possible except in the kind of content people breeze through solo.

Basically, I feel that the current endgame that demands an Aegis for tanks likewise restricts what other tanks are possible.

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So part of my suggestions were really based on the premise that aegis is not a requirement, but the amount of prep that you would have to do you might as well build an aegis because its easier on the whole party. Aegis is not hard to make I don't know why there is such and aversion to making something so beneficial. Take for example what I suggested getting the souveran +1 set for pld, its going to cost you in the ballpark of 300mil. You could make several aegis with that much gil.

When I started playing mnk more when delve came out because I couldn't get into any parties as pld(delve1) I also noticed its tanking potential. I agree that it did mnk a disservice the gifts that it got. Maybe they felt that mnks offensive capabilities were already really good and that to not make it too powerful they had to give it something so they decided to do defensive. You have sparked my interest in mnk tanking though and im going to look into it more might be able to come up with some good suggestions.