Please remove the EXP/CP malus when playing in a 2 to 6 real player party

Hello,

FFXI is an MMORPG, and I think it's a terrible concept/idea that when you play with real people in Capacity/Experience Points Party you get a malus... (For a group of 2 to 6 real players, I don't talk about alliances)

So what? FFXI encourage to play solo with trusts than playing with real people? You get zero malus as playing solo with your 5 trusts out...

This is a multiplayer game and it's way more fun to play with real people than play with NPC I think...

I don't ask for Trust to get the same penality as real players, I ask for real player to not have anymore a penality when playing together on a 2 to 6 real player party...

it seems so obvious to me...

Dammit, it's a multiplayer game it is an incomprehensible logic to me.
Especialy now with so low server population, we need make more interactions between players as ever, this is the basis and the rationale of FFXI.

Thanks for your attention

You realize in escha and in most gates zones in adoulin there is no penalty right? Those are the main areas people are expining in anyways

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Originally Posted by Pups323

You realize in escha and in most gates zones in adoulin there is no penalty right? Those are the main areas people are expining in anyways

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Thanks for the info, I did not know, that is a little fuzzy so, I do not know which areas have a penalty and what area do not, why do not all areas have the same logic? it would be so much simpler don't you think?

Today we was a team of 5 real players + a trust in Woh Gates and I noticed that the CP per kill was way lower than solo playing with Trusts...

Where to you find a list ot those non-affected zones?

I, too, would be interested in this information, as I have noticed no such relaxing of the penalty to capacity points in parties in Gates zones. Going from ~60 job points an hour duo to ~20 job points an hour with four people despite killing twice as fast would seem to argue otherwise.

The relaxation is only for EXP as far as I know, not CP.

The idea was that you could get way faster xp/cp in a group even with a small penalty. But then soloers complained too much on how slow it was in comparison to solo so they got trusts that work almost as good as players

Anyways going back thru old update notes it says cp and xp for soa zones but says only xp for escha. Might be a typo though

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...776#post552776

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Experience point acquisition while in a party has been adjusted to be the same as in Seekers of Adoulin areas. As a result, experience point gains while in a party have been increased.

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It doesnt say cp, but i can test it tonight im 99% sure people wouldnt do ae cp parties in escha if it gimped your exp/cp.

Sure they would. Gimped per kill doesn't mean you're getting less per hour. More people assisting in the kill or even multiple kills at once speeds it up, keeps the chain up, and generally benefits you more in the long run, especially with the campaign boosting chain potency.

Edit: My mistake, I didn't see the "AE" in there. I do make a case for less leeching and more cooperative CP over time still, however. :P

Sorry by "sao" zones I meant the "gate" zones specifically.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ght=experience

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Experience point and capacity point acquisition is reduced when in parties. However, this reduction is lessened in the following areas.
Sih Gates / Cirdas Caverns / Dho Gates / Woh Gates / Moh Gates

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Originally Posted by Hercule

Hello,

FFXI is an MMORPG, and I think it's a terrible concept/idea that when you play with real people in Capacity/Experience Points Party you get a malus... (For a group of 2 to 6 real players, I don't talk about alliances)

So what? FFXI encourage to play solo with trusts than playing with real people? You get zero malus as playing solo with your 5 trusts out...

This is a multiplayer game and it's way more fun to play with real people than play with NPC I think...

I don't ask for Trust to get the same penality as real players, I ask for real player to not have anymore a penality when playing together on a 2 to 6 real player party...

it seems so obvious to me...

Dammit, it's a multiplayer game it is an incomprehensible logic to me.
Especialy now with so low server population, we need make more interactions between players as ever, this is the basis and the rationale of FFXI.

Thanks for your attention

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This is a good suggestion Hercule. Hell, I would even take it a step further and say they should increase the base amount of experience you get from every kill when you add a party member into the group. Loot change also.

As you say - when it comes to multiplayer games there should be as many incentives as possible to form groups.

I agree with the sentiment of this thread. Working together in an MMO should always be rewarded.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

I agree with the sentiment of this thread. Working together in an MMO should always be rewarded.

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And it is. Did you work on your Aeonic Weapons?

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Originally Posted by Elexia

And it is. Did you work on your Aeonic Weapons?

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I think you missed where he said "always".

I agree with OP. I really don't see any point in penalizing exp on parties vs trusts. At the very least it should be removed for all level synched players below 99.

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Originally Posted by Catmato

I think you missed where he said "always".

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Thank you, yes they did.

Consider this.. I can earn 30 JP/hr solo cleaving on my new blue mage. Invite one person to the group and it halves, even though things are dying just as fast/faster.

There is something wrong about that.

It shouldn't be going down by half... the normal share penalty at 2 is 60% and much less in the "gates" zones. So either that is an exaggeration or your kill speed is going down.

Also if things are just dying as fast when you add another player there is something wrong with that. Share penalties were designed to compensate for the much greater kill speed/kill harder targets. Now the differences between solo and pt are much smaller than before due to trust but a 2nd person should still be adding significantly to your ability to kill mobs harder/faster. Especially cleaving since a lot of that is about pull speed and to an extant survivability on pulls. Maybe choose a spot with higher level/more dense mobs? Fight in the zones designed to minimize those penalties?

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Originally Posted by dasva

It shouldn't be going down by half... the normal share penalty at 2 is 60% and much less in the "gates" zones. So either that is an exaggeration or your kill speed is going down.

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I'm not sure it's exactly half. As a blu, I'm cleaving and there are other factors involved such as game day (affecting spells)/camp competition. Also, it depends on the type of job of the other player, some can't cleave or can't cleave as fast as blue, so they negatively affect experience. I only do it because I'm trying to help friends.

There are also a startling number of people who can't even make aoe pulls because they don't have -dt/evasion gear and die. One of us has trusts, so we need to stick fairly close so the other person gets a heal as needed.

For sure, nothing I've ever done on blu compares but to the very worst apex parties. Fight difficult enough mobs with geared-enough players, and you're rolling, but I'm talking about cleaving.

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Also if things are just dying as fast when you add another player there is something wrong with that. Share penalties were designed to compensate for the much greater kill speed/kill harder targets. Now the differences between solo and pt are much smaller than before due to trust but a 2nd person should still be adding significantly to your ability to kill mobs harder/faster. Especially cleaving since a lot of that is about pull speed and to an extant survivability on pulls. Maybe choose a spot with higher level/more dense mobs? Fight in the zones designed to minimize those penalties?

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It's exceedingly stupid that I can summon 5 healers/refreshers (since they don't aoe, I'd rather them not kill my main target) and get far more exp than I can helping a newbie drg in my linkshell get some silt.

Edit: I said exp, I meant CP. Obviously I don't care about exp.

Well if you are basically having someone leech it kind of makes sense that individually you'd get a lot less.... things would be pretty broken if it didn't go down at all and you had a group of 6 all actively contributing not to mention how much that would encourage people to make cleave leech pts again

There are other ways to prevent that:

Idle more than 30 min in an escha zone? Unable to gain exp until you move. Or if that's too hard (might be), you're kicked out of zone.
Make the dropoff happen severely with 7 or more people. That severely cuts down on the potential income selling leech services could earn. As one will be a cleaver and one will be a healer, and other spots might be necessary.

It's an MMO. People shouldn't forced to play with others, but they shouldn't be penalized for it.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

It's an MMO. People shouldn't forced to play with others, but they shouldn't be penalized for it.

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Indeed it's an MMO - You still benefit greatly from working with other people in basically every other aspect of the game. The ironic thing is, and I'm not sure when you actually joined FFXI but people normally tried to do things with as few people as possible for quite the longest, especially before they added incentives to go back and help people with older content. The thing is, as explained, the penalties doesn't exactly come into play in certain spots and I can guarantee it's likely a blanket fix for burning (since you know how big burning for leveling and such was during the Abyssea days to the point it funded most people's Relic/Mythics and then some) so it honestly doesn't surprise me. It sucks, especially for someone coming back and trying to get caught up quickly, but at the same time the "adjustments" wasn't reduced as much where they added the apex mobs (something said newbie wouldn't even be able to touch.)

I'm also pretty sure every other MMO I've ever played reduced exp (and any variant thereof)/certain items earned the more people you have with you in the overworld aspect compared to the dungeon (instance) aspect. For example if I recently returned from before they introduced JP and Gifts, the zones you even get CP from are still on the "I can barely kill these" end of the spectrum and "I can't do content until I have tons of JP and Gift combos" that while it does suck, newbies can't skip straight to the "end" like previous content design because it's literally impossible, like if you were going through the RoV storyline there's a good chance if you caught aggro in the shrine zone you could die, even with trusts, because it's a zone taking into consideration current players, rather than newer/returning players.

Heck, exp was always reduced in a party by a % and CP is just another form XP, it's far more important to a capped player, but considering the "burn" style of progression is most popular as I said, I'm honestly not surprised they put a decent % cut from it while partying with actual players but even then it's not really a penalty.

Really though, the burn mentality shifted the way players perceived things, which is why so many people struggled with Legion content after being weened off of Abyssea.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

There are other ways to prevent that:

Idle more than 30 min in an escha zone? Unable to gain exp until you move. Or if that's too hard (might be), you're kicked out of zone.
Make the dropoff happen severely with 7 or more people. That severely cuts down on the potential income selling leech services could earn. As one will be a cleaver and one will be a healer, and other spots might be necessary.

It's an MMO. People shouldn't forced to play with others, but they shouldn't be penalized for it.

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3 min (of non acting on target PT or target Mob) instead of 30 min could be better :p

So then just put your leech on auto-follow. Any solution SE came up with would be so heavy handed as to hurt the legitimate players more than it helps and we should really know this. Remember when SE tried to "fix" Campaign because people were just spamming buffs? Well that just made it so I couldn't do Campaign effectively on the only job I had leveled at the time. Remember SE's solution to combat RMT was to make it so you could only dbox 1m at a time. The solution to fish bots was to ruin fishing for everybody.

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Originally Posted by detlef

So then just put your leech on auto-follow. Any solution SE came up with would be so heavy handed as to hurt the legitimate players more than it helps and we should really know this. Remember when SE tried to "fix" Campaign because people were just spamming buffs? Well that just made it so I couldn't do Campaign effectively on the only job I had leveled at the time. Remember SE's solution to combat RMT was to make it so you could only dbox 1m at a time. The solution to fish bots was to ruin fishing for everybody.

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Remember how the "ruined fishing" didn't last long and people were back to business in no time flat because, you know, legit players actually adapt quicker than reprogramming bots to take into consideration the fishing fatigue? Nevermind the initial fix that added the bounty hunters that only hurt certain dunes/qufim parties but actually did the job of killing/relocating fish bots to the point if they were pos hacking they got auto flagged trying to pos away from the goblin.

Remember how campaign was still perfectly fine and people moved more towards cycling evaluations rather than 1 full battle evaluation instead?

The only change to campaign (that directly affected our progression) was you weren't able to skill up anymore while under the status nor gain a lot of exp/points for doing basically nothing. They also nerfed offensive campaigns (that people used more for skilling up anyway) but defense campaigns were still extremely popular.

SE can be heavy handed at times, that is definitely true - but what you actually meant to write was, any solution SE comes up with players will circumvent it within the next couple of hours or find an exploit in the system to keep within a particular circle of people until it gets out and SE catches wind.

You know, like always?

The gil thing is honestly a non issue because most people playing, especially at the time, could trade gil between them and their mule(s) to get around it because good chance you're dual+ boxing to low man content anyway, especially at the turn of ToAU era+ when people wanted to low man more rather than go with 6+ people.

The only solution that legitimately hurt players was when they used a popular NPC to flag RMT transactions (as most RMT dumped the blood onto that NPC) and it ended up flagging regular players that happened to use it to sell off crap right before a Dynamis Bastok for example.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Remember how the "ruined fishing" didn't last long and people were back to business in no time flat because, you know, legit players actually adapt quicker than reprogramming bots to take into consideration the fishing fatigue? Nevermind the initial fix that added the bounty hunters that only hurt certain dunes/qufim parties but actually did the job of killing/relocating fish bots to the point if they were pos hacking they got auto flagged trying to pos away from the goblin.

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Not sure where you're going with this. Can it really be argued that fishing nerfs hurt bots more than legit players? I don't think it can. Are you trying to agree with me or argue?

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Remember how campaign was still perfectly fine and people moved more towards cycling evaluations rather than 1 full battle evaluation instead?

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That's not really a good workaround since it meant that your union evaluation was severely impacted and there never was a good system to reward support jobs?

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Originally Posted by Elexia

The only change to campaign (that directly affected our progression) was you weren't able to skill up anymore while under the status nor gain a lot of exp/points for doing basically nothing. They also nerfed offensive campaigns (that people used more for skilling up anyway) but defense campaigns were still extremely popular.

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Those nerfs weren't in response to the initial problem I posed, but I don't think that being able to skill up to level 50 mobs was really that big a deal back in the day when you could achieve a pretty good hit rate with level correction.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

The gil thing is honestly a non issue because most people playing, especially at the time, could trade gil between them and their mule(s) to get around it because good chance you're dual+ boxing to low man content anyway, especially at the turn of ToAU era+ when people wanted to low man more rather than go with 6+ people.

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I'm pretty sure the dbox adjustment was added before ToAU. Also dual-boxing (and low-manning in general) never became super prevalent until Abyssea. So the 1m gil thing was actually a pretty big issue back then particularly during the hyper-inflation days when you also couldn't do all your dbox stuff inside your mog house.

Anyway I think my point stands, anything SE does to address this "problem" will hurt legit players more than it helps. And I don't see how it would help anybody in the first place.

I think just a simple removal of the penalty for partying up is fine.

Are people actually concerned about it increasing the possibility of people paying for/leeching CAP? Who cares?

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Originally Posted by Hercule

3 min (of non acting on target PT or target Mob) instead of 30 min could be better :p

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Eh, 3 min, 10 min is too little. People do need to afk at times.

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Originally Posted by detlef

So then just put your leech on auto-follow. Any solution SE came up with would be so heavy handed as to hurt the legitimate players more than it helps and we should really know this. Remember when SE tried to "fix" Campaign because people were just spamming buffs? Well that just made it so I couldn't do Campaign effectively on the only job I had leveled at the time. Remember SE's solution to combat RMT was to make it so you could only dbox 1m at a time. The solution to fish bots was to ruin fishing for everybody.

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The AFK auto-logout timer doesn't care about movement because of auto-follow. It's a client-side mechanism that times out after X minutes of no input from player. The timer I suggested could be similar. Now I do know that some people would run bots that just moved their character every few minutes, but still, it's a suggestion.

There are other ways too, make it so that you need to get on a monster's hate list once every 10 minutes to gain exp in escha areas, so the drg that I cleaved for would need to hit things as well, and should!

But all that does get a little convolute and takes time to program. The easiest option is to make it so the falloff doesn't occur til you have 7 members, and make it brutal. Alliance-leeching should never have happened.

I would really rather they not do that. I kill Apex mobs in an alliance with my LS buddies sometimes- we're aware it's far from the most efficient, but sometimes we just want to play together so we take the hit. Anyway we're already penalized pretty heavily for it.

Some of you guys need to consider how your suggestions would affect players other than your own group (I can't believe someone suggested a 3 minute idle timer for Escha areas with a straight face). There's no reason to implement any of these suggestions that will just force legitimate players to play a specific way especially in regards to something like grinding xp/cp. Just ask them to reduce the penalty of playing in a party- there, done. Who cares if people start selling cleaves again?

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Originally Posted by Kincard

Who cares if people start selling cleaves again?

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Seriously, this. Why would it matter?

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Originally Posted by Olor

Seriously, this. Why would it matter?

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Support your local RMT, Sign up today!

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

Support your local RMT, Sign up today!

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RMT in 2016? Is this bizarro world?

A quick google reveals that they are indeed still operating.

Gone are the days of open world nm's, so you don't see them there.

Presently gone are the days of leech parties, so you don't see them there.

What are they doing for gil? Probably botting reives and botting during more lucrative RoEs. Bring back cleaving for alliances and you'll see them becoming almost friendly to players again and you'll either be muscled out of favored camps, or just suffer a terrible time because they take your mobs.

I don't get how you can make that post and not realize you've just pointed out the exact flaw in your premise- RMT are already operating right now. RMT will always be around, you're basically suggesting they make some obtuse design choices just to slightly inconvenience RMT, who are generally much more dedicated than legitimate players and will easily find a way around it, while heavily inconveniencing actual players.

FTR, they were "friendly" with players during Abyssea because they were more or less a benign presence due to how many camps and how fast monsters repopped there (That sounds familiar). Not to mention there were plenty of legitimate players who sold cleaves to fund their own relics or what have you.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

There are other ways to prevent that:

Idle more than 30 min in an escha zone? Unable to gain exp until you move. Or if that's too hard (might be), you're kicked out of zone.
Make the dropoff happen severely with 7 or more people. That severely cuts down on the potential income selling leech services could earn. As one will be a cleaver and one will be a healer, and other spots might be necessary.

It's an MMO. People shouldn't forced to play with others, but they shouldn't be penalized for it.

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Yeah super easy to get around non action

You aren't really being penalized. The total amount of cp/xp etc earned is actually going up. You are just splitting it up. You don't expect extra drop slots for every extra pt member when you kill mobs? Same thing. The point of teaming up isn't to get free extra stuff for another character it's to actually work together to accomplish more

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Originally Posted by dasva

You don't expect extra drop slots for every extra pt member when you kill mobs? Same thing. The point of teaming up isn't to get free extra stuff for another character it's to actually work together to accomplish more

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You get more crystals the more players in your party. And more (faster? i forget how they changed it) seals too.

Seals are the same no matter what, you get 1 per party per 5 minutes. In an alliance you can get 3 per 5 minutes

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Originally Posted by dasva

Yeah super easy to get around non action

You aren't really being penalized. The total amount of cp/xp etc earned is actually going up. You are just splitting it up. You don't expect extra drop slots for every extra pt member when you kill mobs? Same thing. The point of teaming up isn't to get free extra stuff for another character it's to actually work together to accomplish more

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In a lot of cases it's not.

Cleaving jobs can aoe stuff down so fast that a second cleaver frequently doesn't help that much. A puller might, if the cleaver can do it themselves but then you're requiring a specific comp, or any 5 trusts you like.

Clearly you disagree, but I think the penalty for playing together in an mmo is dumb, when it's not present for trusts which do just as well in certain roles as players.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

but I think the penalty for playing together in an mmo is dumb, when it's not present for trusts which do just as well in certain roles as players.

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If you solo kill an enemy worth 1000 exp, with 2 people that same enemy is worth 1200 exp. 600*2. It's a penalty to YOU, but an increase overall. In theory you should kill twice as fast, and get an extra 200 exp in the same amount of time.

If there was no *individual* "penalty" then people would leech much more often *cough abyssea cough*.

But yes, being "penalized" for partying is a big deterrent. However it exists for that reason. It really should be lessened everywhere though... Merits serve no purpose (the goblin system sucks) and anything pre 99 doesn't exist now. As far as Capacity points, well that system has been convoluted since inception. How many hundreds of people were banned for "excessively earning job points".

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

In a lot of cases it's not.

Cleaving jobs can aoe stuff down so fast that a second cleaver frequently doesn't help that much. A puller might, if the cleaver can do it themselves but then you're requiring a specific comp, or any 5 trusts you like.

Clearly you disagree, but I think the penalty for playing together in an mmo is dumb, when it's not present for trusts which do just as well in certain roles as players.

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Look at it this way... the total amount of xp each mob gives is slightly increasing when you add more players (base xp anyways different amount of bonuses between players can mess with things a little but base will always go up ) but you are splitting it with someone else. You feel bad because individually you got less despite doing the same amount of work but that isn't because there was less xp but because the other guy got half of it while not really doing anything. It's like inviting someone to help you make a pie but they don't really help out much and you end up just making a slightly bigger one. You weren't given a smaller pie your friend just more of it then he helped make

As far how much can they contribute... that's kind of on you. You can cleave close enough for credit but not interfere. More pullers is almost always helpful. Heck just a healer that doesn't wait for you to engage and smack a mob can help things out quite a bit. But really part of the problem is trying to use solo ways of fighting in a group... the fact that some of the group is taking your xp without adding much is just exacerbating the problem. This is kind of exactly what apex mobs were made for. Mobs designed to be fought in some kind of group (though you can slowly solo)