I have done extensive testing of both magic mortar and of flame holder. I've deduced that either the representation of the information we were given, and how they would stack together, is either wrong or misleading.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
Flame Holder seems to work perfectly fine with every other Weaponskill I have tested, producing great results for Bone Crusher and String Shredder in particular. However, Flame Holder doesn't seem to work that same way with Magic Mortar.
A very good example is this test, which is just one of the many I performed.
Build the Automaton up to 3k TP, change gear to erase master TP to stop Inhibitor from inhibiting. Automaton HP is 1588/4264, melee skill is 408. Put up three maneuvers with Flame Holder equipped. Deploy Automaton against Blanched Mandragora in Ceizak Battlegrounds. Magic Mortar is performed immediately, does 5425 damage. Automaton kills Blanched Mandragora with melee strikes. Immediately afterwards, equip Empath Necklace in the neck slot to regen hp back to 1588/4264, remove as soon as it hits that. Put up three fire maneuvers, deploy against target from 17 yalms. Heat Capacitor 1&2 activate, giving Automaton 3k TP, erasing all fire maneuvers in the process. Magic Mortar goes off almost immediately afterwards, dealing 4744 damage. There was no time for the Automaton to get hit, or take any damage. The only difference between those two Magic Mortars are the three fire maneuvers.
Magic Mortar has a base modifier of 1.5 at 3k tp for damage gained from HP lost. So essentially "[Max HP-Current HP]1.5+Melee skill" should be the damage formula when the Automaton has 3k TP. If Flame Holder STACKS with the base damage of Magic Mortar, the formula would be "[Max HP-Current HP]4+Melee skill" at 3k tp. This clearly isn't the case from what I am observing. Camate specifically said that it works with the damage calculated from the Automaton's missing HP, but anywhere you throw a modifier as large as 2.5, you aren't going to see a result as small as an additional 681 damage.
How does Flame Holder work with Magic Mortar? Because these results indicate that it does not do what it does with every other Automaton Weaponskill I have tested.
How do Magic Mortar and Flame Holder interface?
Printable View
-
10-21-2015, 03:33 AMVahnErisHow do Magic Mortar and Flame Holder interface?
-
10-26-2015, 08:57 PMMarada
Did you take the Madragora's Gaurding in to account? Or any other possible dmg resisting? Madragora's are MNK type mobs. I'm not two well versed on guard's activation because I never really pay attention to it anymore, but that could be part of it. Another could be that Flame holder just doesn't work with Magic Mortar to begin with. Even if they say it does, maybe the HP modifier trumps Flame holder and that's all.
-
10-26-2015, 09:24 PMRoja323
According to the wiki, flame holder adds 25% dmg, or 250/100:
408 + (2676*1.25)*1.5 = 5425 , which is exactly what you are getting.
This 25% increase is 250/100, so my guess is that its a broken formula and it should be
408 + (2676*2.5)*1.5 = 10443 -
10-26-2015, 11:01 PMVahnErisSame conclusion I was drawing. Essentially, the additional fire maneuvers from Flame Holder aren't affecting Magic Mortar. I'm guessing it's because the formula for Magic Mortar is different from all the other Automaton WS, so when they went to update Flame Holder, they forgot to make the multiplier apply or something? I don't know. What I do know is that either they outright lied about how Magic Mortar works with Flame Holder, or far more likely... It's a bug.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roja323
-
10-29-2015, 04:44 AMRoja323
Except fire maneuvers are affecting magic mortar. Your are just getting 25% instead of 250%. You would be getting 0% if it had no effect.
-
10-29-2015, 06:03 AMVahnErisNo, it's doing what it isn't supposed to do. Without any maneuvers it SHOULD provide 25%. They said it would be fixed in the September update. It's harder to test to see if it's actually been fixed, but I suppose I could do it with Cannibal Blade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
Either way, the strength is supposed to increase based on number on fire maneuvers. It isn't, it's just bugged and requires that you have at least one fire maneuver active in order for it to kick in. I suppose I should just write a bug report since I imagine at this point it's the only way the Devs are going to bother addressing it. -
11-06-2015, 03:29 AMCamateTo cut right to the chase, Flame Holder is working as intended with Magic Mortar, and there aren’t any bugs with the damage calculations.Quote:
Originally Posted by VahnEris
As mentioned in my previous post, Flame Holder’s effect will stack additional damage onto the damage from Magic Mortar that is calculated from the automaton’s missing HP. In other words, it only affects the damage bonus.
However, there is a set damage cap for Magic Mortar, which is reached when either your automaton’s HP is 1 or you have 3000 TP, and exceeding this cap with the Flame Holder’s bonus will not yield any additional damage.
Hopefully this helps shed a bit of light on your testing! -
11-06-2015, 06:15 AMdasva
So not working when you are trying to max it is "working as intended"... ok. Seems odd to make it so only 1 ws doesn't receive benefits from an attachment and then only at high tp
-
11-06-2015, 11:27 AMVahnEris
My last series of tests weren't quite strict enough to provide solid results, but they were good enough to tell me something was wrong. Since I now have something from devs saying it's working as intended, I'll post my recent series of tests. After you look at them, it's immediately clear what Flame Holder does with Magic Mortar.
All tests are performed on Blanched Mandragoras in Ceizak Battlegrounds. Heat Capacitors are used to provide 3000tp. All tests are performed at 3000TP. Automaton HP is confirmed with the ingame menu for automatons. Automaton is drained of all MP so that the AI would not attempt to do anything other than use Magic Mortar immediately after being deployed. Current refers to current HP, ftp refers to damage bonus. Damage bonus is displayed as a decimal rather than as a percentage, but it's irrelevant.
Damage - 2830
Max HP - 3376
Current - 1866
Diff -1510
Skill - 424
Flame - 0x
Ftp - 1.59
Damage - 2972
Max HP - 3376
Current - 1866
Diff -1510
Skill - 424
Flame - 1x
Ftp - 1.68
Damage - 3113
Max HP - 3376
Current - 1866
Diff -1510
Skill -424
Flame - 2x
Ftp -1.78
Damage - 3225
Max HP - 3376
Current - 1866
Diff -1510
Skill -424
Flame - 3x
Ftp -1.85
Damage - 6903
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0188
Diff -4076
Skill -408
Flame - 0x
Ftp -1.59
Damage - 7286
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0188
Diff -4076
Skill -408
Flame - 1x
Ftp -1.68
Damage - 7668
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0188
Diff -4076
Skill -408
Flame - 2x
Ftp -1.78
Damage - 8050
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0188
Diff -4076
Skill -408
Flame - 3x
Ftp -1.87
Damage - 7178
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0042
Diff -4222
Skill -408
Flame - 0x
Ftp -1.60
Damage - 7576
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0042
Diff -4222
Skill -408
Flame - 1x
Ftp -1.69
Damage - 7974
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0042
Diff -4222
Skill -408
Flame - 2x
Ftp -1.79
Damage - 8373
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0042
Diff -4222
Skill -408
Flame - 3x
Ftp -1.88
By using a combination of Venom potions, poison potions and regen gear, I was able to get my HP to exactly 1 and use Role Reversal to make my Automaton's HP 1.
Damage - 7186
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0001
Diff -4263
Skill -408
Flame - 0x
Ftp -1.59
Damage - 7569
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0001
Diff -4263
Skill -408
Flame - 1x
Ftp -1.68
Damage - 8001
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0001
Diff -4263
Skill -408
Flame - 2x
Ftp -1.78
Damage - 8401
Max HP - 4264
Current - 0001
Diff - 4263
Skill - 408
Flame - 3x
Ftp - 1.87
So in conclusion, Flame Holder is adding 0.10ftp(10% damage) per fire maneuver. There is no such cap on the damage Magic Mortar can do, other than the mathematical limit based on parameters. Or the cap is higher than what can actually be achieved. Either way it's irrelevant.
Devs already said it is working as intended, so it's going to stay like this. Just so everyone else can be aware, it DOES NOT WORK HOW THE DEVS HAVE SUGGESTED. It's a straight 0.10ftp multiplier per maneuver. -
11-06-2015, 09:56 PMRoja323
Just going to throw this out there, do your tests at 1k tp without max difference, and you might see different results. It might be adjusting the ftp value as well as giving a bonus to the hp differential, and if hp differential is max or TP = 3k, then you only get the ftp bonus. Which is what they are claiming, therefore you need to test at 1k tp and 50% (or any value other then 1 hp left).
From your numbers.
@3k tp
1x- 408 + (4263*1.120)*1.5 = 7569
2x- 408 + (4263*1.187)*1.5 = 8001
3x- 408 + (4263*1.250)*1.5 = 8401
To me, i see 100/175/250 in the bonus modifier, sure it looks like 112/187/250, but those are still pretty darn close to what they claim. Sure its not the 100% increase, but it lines up way to well to just be ignored. Also what dmg are you getting at 3k tp, 1 hp, no flame holder equipped. -
11-06-2015, 11:03 PMRoja323
Also saw the trend here:
0x- 408 + (4263*1.025*1.030)*1.5 = 7168
1x- 408 + (4263*1.100*1.020)*1.5 = 7569
2x- 408 + (4263*1.175*1.010)*1.5 = 8001
3x- 408 + (4263*1.250*1.000)*1.5 = 8401
put simply, at 3k tp: skill + 1.5(hpdif)(1.025+(0.075*x))(1.03-(0.01*x))
x = number of maneuvers
Where if u assume the bonus given by flame holder, you can see that there is a secondary bonus that decreases by a 0.010 for each additional fire maneuver, i dont know enough about ws equations (ftp str etc) to understand what that extra value is comming from, it just seems way to coincidental that it lines up perfectly now. -
11-07-2015, 02:40 AMdasva
So using the first few I came up with a formula of: Dmg= skill + 1.5 Hpdif (1 +.0625(number of maneuvers+1)).
It worked great for most of it the numbers except a few things that I think might just be recording errors.
For example it doesn't work on the 4th result where the formula gets 3255 but it says 3225... reason I think that might be an error is pretty easy to mix up a 2 and 5 and up until that point for that hp diff each maneuver was adding 141-142 dmg and 3255 would be another 142 while 3225 would only be a 112 increase. Seems unlikely that the last maneuver would suddenly do a lot less
It then continues to work until 4222 diff at which point it's all off.... but the formula is right on if you assume 4248 hp diff. Rarely small change of hp which could easily be not noticing a hit or some gear change
Then there was the last set... honestly no idea what is going on there. Up until that point with the one exception noted above each maneuver added the same amount of dmg within 1 because of rounding. But on the last set the first maneuver adds 383 the second adds 432 and the third adds 400. Which makes all kinds of no sense at all. Seems like something was changing each test there. Maybe ionis or something doing weird stuff? Gear changing because changes for regening idk. Anyways pretty sure some super fishy is up with the last set since it completely breaks from what all the other sets do ie the linear dmg progression from manuevers -
11-07-2015, 06:10 AMVahnErisIf your values are right, that confirms that the decimal place is in the wrong spot SPECIFICALLY for Magic Mortar. 250% damage is represented by 2.50, not 1.250. 1.250 would be 25% damage. The way the choose to word this is awkward. That's probably what annoys me the most about it. I can't tell if they are just wording things strangely or if there is actually a difference in what they report vs. what is actually happening. Except I know that isn't true because of Flame Holder works with Bone Crusher, for example. In fact, I think tonight I will do testing on Bone Crusher, which is far damning than just Magic Mortar by itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roja323
If there are reporting errors, it's more likely to be in the first four. Those were done at a different time than the last set, I did them before the Devs said anything. That being said, it's possible. It's also possible that Magic Mortar just does weird shit sometimes. I observed it doing 12 more damage when I removed 20 skill trying to see if the damage from skill was being amplified somehow. It wasn't, btw. And the only difference between those two tests was the removal of 20 skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by dasva
I have sterile macros I make specifically for testing, and I manually equip/unequip any regen gear so that I know exactly what is on. There is no way for my gear to change when I am doing testing. That being said, I'm going to do more this evening I think. One sample set is pretty much a "Results inconclusive, not enough data" as far as I am concerned. -
11-08-2015, 05:14 AMVahnEris
So I did some testing with Flame Holder and Bone Crusher this morning. I parsed 10 good WS within each parameter, added all values together and divided by ten for average damage. All gear that modifies the puppet was unequiped. All commands performed from menu. Food was Shiromochi. The numbers I have are too low for absolute accuracy, more testing would be required for a clearer picture. I'd like anyone else who plays PUP to do their own tests and report their findings. Numbers provided, as mentioned, are only rough values as the amount of testing was somewhat low. Any WS that did not return the proper amount of TP for all three hits was not counted.
Notes about Bone Crusher: It's a very consistent WS. The Devs say it has +166% damage bonus, three hits, does not critical and has NO TP BONUS. Mod is Vit, which does not increase from fire maneuvers so that will not affect testing.
No Flame Holder(ATK: 1201)
Average Damage = 1806 (base)
Flame Holder, no fire maneuvers(Atk: 1201)
Average Damage = 1911 (1.05 times higher than base)
Flame Holder, 1x Fire Maneuver(Atk: 1232)
Average Damage = 2952 (1.63 times higher than base)
Flame Holder, 2x Fire Maneuvers(Atk: 1259)
Average Damage = 3988 (2.20 times higher than base)
Flame Holder, 3x Fire Maneuvers(Atk: 1290)
Average Damage = 4902 (2.71 times higher than base)
Do you see what I am getting at here? EVEN IF Flame Holder only applies to the Damage from HP portion of Magic Mortar, THAT'S THE BIGGEST PART OF THE DAMAGE. The amount that Flame Holder is adding to Magic Mortar is NOWHERE NEAR what it adds to Bone Crusher. String Shredder and Arcuballista are other WS I tested with Flame Holder after the update, and their damage scaled the same way it does with Bone Crusher.
Maybe it's working as intended, but it's not working as described. -
11-10-2015, 12:29 AMRoja323
In all fairness, they stated at 3k tp or 1 hp, you dont get a dmg bonus from flame holder. So testing at 1k or 2k tp and half hp is probably the only way to see if it is adding a bonus or not.
It could just be that if tp =3k, or hp =1 , then bonus gets divided by 10 and added to 1, so 1.5-> 1.150