[dev1289] Job Adjustments

Reducing the range Beastmasters can use Ready, Sic, Run Wild & Reward? I mean you have to be somewhat close to them already to use the abilities, Why reduce it further? What's wrong with the range at the moment?

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Originally Posted by Morovich

Reducing the range Beastmasters can use Ready, Sic, Run Wild & Reward? I mean you have to be somewhat close to them already to use the abilities, Why reduce it further? What's wrong with the range at the moment?

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They are reducing it as beastmasters are playing their jobs as they were summoners but with more attack and defense on their pets. Not to mention you wear heavy armor which gives you more defense yourself makes almost 0 risk for you to do almost anything in the game.

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Originally Posted by Morovich

Reducing the range Beastmasters can use Ready, Sic, Run Wild & Reward? I mean you have to be somewhat close to them already to use the abilities, Why reduce it further? What's wrong with the range at the moment?

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SE is intentionally making Beastmaster unplayable for relevant content with one Nerf-date. A few people begged SE to make BST unplayable because their respective jobs were not being asked for during events rather than boosting dmg for their own jobs.

BST are not playing like they're SMN, they're playing like the solo-jobs we have always been. This distance has been 'required' for BST to be playable from day one, changing it will fundamentally change how BST is played - if its played at all. It's a major mistake on SE's part and I hope they reconsider before they make yet another mistake making unnecessary adjustments.

The nerf-date has nothing to do with balance, it has to do with making the half dozen people that complain on forums happy. No jobs in 2015 should ever be nerfed into unplayability like this, jobs that are weak should be getting boosts so all can be played enjoyably with whatever playtime remains as SE loses whats left of its remaining loyal playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Jile

This distance has been 'required' for BST to be playable from day one

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Not sure how you use to play bst back in the day but i and everyone else i knew who played it always fought with the pets they charmed. They gave bst heavy armor for a reason. The new content has more danger due to constant aoe attacks but you can't expect to have i think it was put "A pet with the HP of a mantra monk galka, the weaponskill damage of a samurai, the damage taken of a paladin and the attack power of a warrior" all from a safe distance with no draw back.

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Originally Posted by Secondplanet

Not sure how you use to play bst back in the day but i and everyone else i knew who played it always fought with the pets they charmed. They gave bst heavy armor for a reason. The new content has more danger due to constant aoe attacks but you can't expect to have i think it was put "A pet with the HP of a mantra monk galka, the weaponskill damage of a samurai, the damage taken of a paladin and the attack power of a warrior" all from a safe distance with no draw back.

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It's hard to explain this to someone who never soloed something like Narasimha or Merrow No. 5 where BST never engaged as they did not want any enmity. That said, BST cannot be useful at the same time a jugpet is useful, nor can we survive dmg when our gear is set for pets to survive. Lack of understanding like yours about BST is precisely why the nerf is happening. SMN will continue to stand out of range in safely while BST will be unplayable from update forward on targets of any challenge and value.

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Originally Posted by Jile

It's hard to explain this to someone who never soloed something like Narasimha or Merrow No. 5 where BST never engaged as they did not want any enmity. That said, BST cannot be useful at the same time a jugpet is useful, nor can we survive dmg when our gear is set for pets to survive. Lack of understanding like yours about BST is precisely why the nerf is happening. SMN will continue to stand out of range in safely while BST will be unplayable from update forward on targets of any challenge and value.

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If you want to convince SE to allow summoners to wear heavy armor then please do, i would be glad not to wimp out behind everyone else complaining i have to choose between pet and owner.

BST have to choose. Def or atk or acc on either pet or themselves, and only one really of those six variables up at a time. This update proves only that whomever is doing this update does not play BST. Neither BST nor SMN belong on the frontline for relevant content, period.

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Originally Posted by Secondplanet

If you want to convince SE to allow summoners to wear heavy armor then please do, i would be glad not to wimp out behind everyone else complaining i have to choose between pet and owner.

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Heavy armor means jack squat. It's the stats on the armor that matter - and if BST's pets are going to hit anything or not die in a couple hits, BST need to wear armor that augments their pets - but armor that augments their pets sucks for the master - meaning BST has to either have a useless pet - or be useless themselves.

If the change included the change that all stats on armor applied to our pets and our pets got buffs like players - then I would be fine with it - but it doesn't. It just makes BST useless for all content.

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Originally Posted by Secondplanet

If you want to convince SE to allow summoners to wear heavy armor then please do, i would be glad not to wimp out behind everyone else complaining i have to choose between pet and owner.

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Summoners don't need to be near the NM and after the update, they will be even further away. Why do they need heavy armor?

And why is it okay for summoners to have "A pet with the HP of a mantra monk galka, the weaponskill damage of 10 samurai, the damage taken of a paladin and the attack power of a warrior The buffs of several jobs, healing and infinite lives all from a safe distance with no draw back"?

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Originally Posted by bazookatooth

Summoners don't need to be near the NM and after the update, they will be even further away. Why do they need heavy armor?

And why is it okay for summoners to have "A pet with the HP of a mantra monk galka, the weaponskill damage of 10 samurai, the damage taken of a paladin and the attack power of a warrior The buffs of several jobs, healing and infinite lives all from a safe distance with no draw back"?

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I said the heavy armor bit in a ironic term.
As for the rest of your comment i'm surprised my brain didn't liquefy from reading how stupid that sounds. Avatars cannot tank anything endgame without dying in a couple of hits unless i stack nothing but pet damage taken even then i'm limited in options, while i do admit we can do a big single target attack still fails in comparison to what beast can do with their AoE pet attacks, Our buffs are mostly still stuck at 75 stats, what healing are you talking about? you mean carby, levi and garuda's bp's? so am i limited to just 3 avatars then to appease your statement? As for draw back there are many to summoners. I like all other jobs bar beastmaster have to carry multiple sets of equipment to do our job, i have to watch mp to make sure i can do attacks and i gain enmity from every command i issue even assault.

When this update take place a lot of things will happen. Bst will suck so bad that it's not worth playing anymore. A lot of people might stop playing FFXI. Since it's actually a nerf to bst SE and the team should just come out and say it's a nerf. It doesn't make sense at this point because they allow this Bst range to run for 7 and 8 years and they are taking it away now.

Keeping pet alive is already difficult and gil consuming so it's gonna be really bad if you gonna keep the master alive and the pet. It be very tough for bst to avoid Mijin Gakure and astral flow. It be difficult to fight big dragons since some of them can AOE Breakga, Sleepga and other bad TP move.

Smn is getting more buffer when they are already a good job. Smn is no where the same as bst since we need food to keep our pet alive and that cost gil. Smn have free pet and they can summon it as many times as they want while bst have to wait on timer like call beast. SMN can also buffer party up to 3 or 4 different buffer and Bst cannot do that. Ranger too is a safe job and they are no different from Bst. Bandwagon of ranger have been running for 2 years or more so it's time they give Bst a 1 year run before adjustment. :/

So for all the bst player out there whom spend 100+ million on gear Augments items I hope you continue playing. Maybe the nerf won't happen and If it does than bst ranged is only reduce by 1 or 2 and not -10. I hope I am wrong about this and the update is not that bad but good.

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Originally Posted by Secondplanet

As for the rest of your comment i'm surprised my brain didn't liquefy from reading how stupid that sounds.

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Likewise.

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Originally Posted by Secondplanet

Avatars cannot tank anything endgame without dying in a couple of hits unless i stack nothing but pet damage taken even then i'm limited in options,

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Oh, you mean like the 40 million in Pet DT- and regen gear I use for endgame and still have my pets die? Yeah, I really feel for you. /smh

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Originally Posted by Secondplanet

while i do admit we can do a big single target attack still fails in comparison to what beast can do with their AoE pet attacks

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Patently false. The only thing that pet AOE attacks are good for is killing fodder. Single target ready moves are better damage over time. Ifrit on the other hand is happy to cap the damage meter at 99,999 on end game content.

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Originally Posted by Secondplanet

Our buffs are mostly still stuck at 75 stats,

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Our buffs are stuck at... they don;t exist.

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Originally Posted by Secondplanet

what healing are you talking about? you mean carby, levi and garuda's bp's? so am i limited to just 3 avatars then to appease your statement?

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Yes, those are 3 more healing pets than bst has and you are subbing a job with cures and refresh.

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Originally Posted by Secondplanet

As for draw back there are many to summoners. I like all other jobs bar beastmaster have to carry multiple sets of equipment to do our job, i have to watch mp to make sure i can do attacks and i gain enmity from every command i issue even assault.

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You really have no idea whatsoever how bst works do you? I have just as much gear for BST as I do for SMN. I have different sets for healing, attacking, tanking, regen, dt-, physical ready moves, magical ready moves, my own dt-, attack, regen etc sets and a slew of other things I'm probably forgetting. Just like I do on my summoner. It's virtually identical really.

And for what it's worth, I like many other beast masters will probably be doing the exact same things I do on bst on my summoner after this nerf, so get ready to defend yourself when people start complaining about all the summoners ruining the game.

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Originally Posted by Secondplanet

I said the heavy armor bit in a ironic term.
As for the rest of your comment i'm surprised my brain didn't liquefy from reading how stupid that sounds. Avatars cannot tank anything endgame without dying in a couple of hits unless i stack nothing but pet damage taken even then i'm limited in options, while i do admit we can do a big single target attack still fails in comparison to what beast can do with their AoE pet attacks, Our buffs are mostly still stuck at 75 stats, what healing are you talking about? you mean carby, levi and garuda's bp's? so am i limited to just 3 avatars then to appease your statement? As for draw back there are many to summoners. I like all other jobs bar beastmaster have to carry multiple sets of equipment to do our job, i have to watch mp to make sure i can do attacks and i gain enmity from every command i issue even assault.

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LOL.......
You think BST don't have multiple sets of gear? I'm going to presume your brain sincerely did liquify as that's hilarious stuff. A good BST may have 100 plus pieces not to mention jugs, foods, pet foods etc.

As SMN was one of my orig 75's I know you carry alot to play well, just saying don't presume a good BST doesn't.

Then where is all this complaining about how the job is going to die cause you need to get closer? If you have the gear to get close to do a command then use it and get over it. This complaining makes me think you want your cake and to eat it too as you want all the benefits of heavy armor, all the -DT for pet and still be able to use all your other sets at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Secondplanet

Then where is all this complaining about how the job is going to die cause you need to get closer? If you have the gear to get close to do a command then use it and get over it. This complaining makes me think you want your cake and to eat it too as you want all the benefits of heavy armor, all the -DT for pet and still be able to use all your other sets at the same time.

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I'll repeat. With some highlighting.

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Originally Posted by Jile

BST have to choose. Def or atk or acc on either pet or themselves, and only one really of those six variables up at a time. This update proves only that whomever is doing this update does not play BST. Neither BST nor SMN belong on the frontline for relevant content, period.

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We want to be able to play and not die because we use a job ability. If you have to use pdt/mdt on self to run in for Bp but now your pet does 200dmg Bp instead of 10000 and causes you to either die or come close every Bp, then we'd be closer to the same issue.

Hahaha at all these BST tears. Love them. And the arguments of how if they get near a mob it will kill them.... as if all other DD don't have that same problem... special snowflakes the lot of you.

Protey, weren't you with us when we were fighting the Acrimonious "Dullan" (private joke) when it did it's move that deals massive damage and I was the only one that died? And everybody laughed at my bst tears. And yes, I was in -50 pdt gear, just like everyone, and had protect / shell on and still took significantly more damage than everyone else on my bst. So no, all other DD's don't have it as bad as bst does. BST needs some serious help if it's to get close to the mob.

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Originally Posted by Singforu

Hahaha at all these BST tears. Love them. And the arguments of how if they get near a mob it will kill them.... as if all other DD don't have that same problem... special snowflakes the lot of you.

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Remember that when you're the one that has to keep us standing LOL

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Originally Posted by Malthar

Protey, weren't you with us when we were fighting the Acrimonious "Dullan" (private joke) when it did it's move that deals massive damage and I was the only one that died? And everybody laughed at my bst tears. And yes, I was in -50 pdt gear, just like everyone, and had protect / shell on and still took significantly more damage than everyone else on my bst. So no, all other DD's don't have it as bad as bst does. BST needs some serious help if it's to get close to the mob.

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The Dylan!!!

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SE is intentionally making Beastmaster unplayable for relevant content with one Nerf-date. A few people begged SE to make BST unplayable because their respective jobs were not being asked for during events rather than boosting dmg for their own jobs.

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Now, as a carveat: I do not play BST and I have no opinion of its power in the game right now and don't have the capability to fairly judge it, so I won't.

That said: It is poor balancing policy (in ANY game) to boost everything else up to the strongest thing. You don't balance a game by buffing everything that isn't the strongest. Nobody enjoys nerfs, but mass buffings cause more problems than they solve most of the time. It also accelerates power creep, because as soon as someone finds another imbalance (which is a certainty), that means another round of buffings and more power creep in a neverending cycle. Not only that, but it's less costly (less work) to adjust one job than 21 others.

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Originally Posted by Singforu

Hahaha at all these BST tears. Love them. And the arguments of how if they get near a mob it will kill them.... as if all other DD don't have that same problem... special snowflakes the lot of you.

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How many of those DDs have to also worry about a pet at the same time? Now how many those don't have things like built in pet dts and such?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Now, as a carveat: I do not play BST and I have no opinion of its power in the game right now and don't have the capability to fairly judge it, so I won't.

That said: It is poor balancing policy (in ANY game) to boost everything else up to the strongest thing. You don't balance a game by buffing everything that isn't the strongest. Nobody enjoys nerfs, but mass buffings cause more problems than they solve most of the time. It also accelerates power creep, because as soon as someone finds another imbalance (which is a certainty), that means another round of buffings and more power creep in a neverending cycle. Not only that, but it's less costly (less work) to adjust one job than 21 others.

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The thing is, BST isn't the strongest at anything really except not dieing in certain situations. Other jobs can do more damage, buff, etc. better. They are literally taking away the only thing that makes this job relevant. They could have scaled back the damage output (even though it's already not as good as SAM, SMN, BLM etc.) or lowered the pets HP, or changed about a billion other things to balance it against the people who don't know how to use indi-vex etc. on their melee parties or magic burst on their mage jobs without completely crushing the whole role of the job in end game.

Let's be honest. This doesn't mean that people are suddenly going to start shouting for a bunch of Dancers, DRKs, WARs, Monks and DRGs to come waste their pops by wacking away at Packiset and getting one shotted. It does absolutely nothing for balancing those other jobs. They still won't be invited because many jobs still need adjustments regardless of what happens to BST and many people who play them still think they can just throw a bunch of offensive buffs up and throw some melee jobs at anything. So the whole idea of nerfing one job so that you don't have to buff a bunch of others is not gonna work. And besides that, SE's whole plan the last few years has been intentional power creep. we've basically doubled in level over the last few years. Power creep is SE's game plan.

I don't know about it myself Haven't really done a whole lot with Beastmaster except cap it at 99. Just have to be closer now to your pet execute those commands, How will that affect battles and such?, I don't know so I cannot say, I guess see how it all works out.

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Power creep is SE's game plan.

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There's a difference between power creep that occurs as a part of natural progression and that which occurs from balancing. Only former is intentional (And let's face facts- Even with audolin, FFXI has considerably less of a power creep issue compared to typical MMOs which alluse straight up linear progression. What we have in XI is sort of a hybrid- But even then, item levels in XI are meant to approximate real ones, and the highest ilvl has held steady for quite some time). I don't mind vertical progression much only because it usually means less inventory stress and fewer items needed to complete a kit- but loot is more interesting and fun overall in XI's approach)

I play both SMN and BST, while there's been a few comments thrown at SMN, I'd like to say, that SMN is tied with having the worst DEF in the game. But that being said, Even though BST is a Front-line DD, they are in a separate field of other jobs and have to maintain their pets with much higher difficulty of the 3 true pet jobs (DRG doesn't count, I'm sorry.) The only one that has it close to BST is PUP, but they have multiple things they can do to recover their pet much faster than a BST can. If they're going to go ahead with this change then either Call Beast or Bestial Loyalty needs to have it's timer reduced GREATLY, in fact it should be the same time as 'Deus Ex Automata'. And BST should also get the Max HP Bonus Trait, which is extremely fitting for those that are Tamers of Wild Beasts, and the DEF Bonus up to Tier III. But that's just my humble opinion.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

There's a difference between power creep that occurs as a part of natural progression and that which occurs from balancing. Only former is intentional (And let's face facts- Even with audolin, FFXI has considerably less of a power creep issue compared to typical MMOs which alluse straight up linear progression. What we have in XI is sort of a hybrid- But even then, item levels in XI are meant to approximate real ones, and the highest ilvl has held steady for quite some time). I don't mind vertical progression much only because it usually means less inventory stress and fewer items needed to complete a kit- but loot is more interesting and fun overall in XI's approach)

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The difference in damage output between a person in straight 119 delve gear vs. even skirmish gear is big. The difference between 119 delve gear and escha gear is huge. Regardless of what the ilvl says it is. Occasionally SE will put in filler gear that closely matches other gear so that people have options as to what event they choose to focus on to gear their jobs, but for the most part, it has been a straight progression. SE stated that this was it's intention going forward. There was much debate about whether they should continue to raise the level cap and this was the route they chose. Gear progression. My SAM now has +30% WS damage in gear. I'd hardly say that is accidental or unintended. And the route they've chosen to go is clearly not because bst was stronger than they intended. If it were, they would have lowered the pets damage output. It's because a bunch of spiteful babies cried about not being able to solo the same things that beast could and this appeared to be the easiest way to shut them up. The unfortunate side effect is that now not only can bst no longer solo, but it's worse at party content than other jobs as well.

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The difference in damage output between a person in straight 119 delve gear vs. even skirmish gear is big.

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While this is true, the difference between the first level 75 gear released and the gear released just prior to the level cap rise is large as well. Even with no change in level cap, you can't go 5 years without ever finding upgrades, people would get bored and quit. FFXI just did it a lot more measured and slowly.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

While this is true, the difference between the first level 75 gear released and the gear released just prior to the level cap rise is large as well. Even with no change in level cap, you can't go 5 years without ever finding upgrades, people would get bored and quit. FFXI just did it a lot more measured and slowly.

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True, but it still negates the argument that jobs should be nerfed instead of buffed.

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Originally Posted by bazookatooth

True, but it still negates the argument that jobs should be nerfed instead of buffed.

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No, it doesn't.

You do not solve balance problems by buffing everything. Even if you want to argue that power creep isn't a good reason, there are others. technical limitations (cielings on values, coding limitaitons) can get in the way and prevent further buffs. When you hit such a cieling, then it becomes impossible to buff everything and now you HAVE to nerf something. Additionally, modifying several jobs to balance one increases the probability of introducing NEW balance issues- Then what do you do? Another round of buffs for everyone? In many other types of games, this isn't even an option, because they have to maintain stats and paramters within certain ranges, which forces nerfs in some cases because there's no room to buff.

Plus the argument that buffing everything else requires a disporportinately large amount of work compared to nerfing the one thing- it costs more and SE has been not doing a lot of things lately because of cost, os it's a very real factor.

The only valid argument for buffing everything else instead of fixing one broken thing is "nobody lies nerfs, everybody loves buffs, so do what people love not what they hate-" Which is an argument rooted in emotion, not sound balancing decisions.

I would like to re-emphasize that I am speaking in general terms here and I'm not specifically commenting on BST or any other one job in particular. This isn't an argument that jobs should never be buffed- It's an argument that buffing is not always the best solution.

Ask yourself what's better: Annoying a few people with a nerf to one class and having a better balanced game, or making people giddy by buffing everything else that isn't up to the same bar but potentially breaking the game more in the process.

I'll provide some exmaples where buffs and nerfs are best practice:

Example 1: Job X has Spell or ability Y that is never used in the game because either a bug or poor attributes of the spell/ability render it inferior to other comparable effects e.g. it's useless. Best solution: Buff the useless thing such that it isn't useless. In this case, the thing(s) that are below par are best upgraded to be meet the expected performance standard.
Example 2: Job X has spell or ability Y that is being used more than anything else in the game because it trivializes an encounter or has unintended effects due to a bug or issue. Solution: Fix the issue or nerf the effect such that

In-context hypothetical example. Suppose people find out that an alliance of black mages can kill anything in the game in one go with three meteors, no other job can do it. Do we 1) Buff every other job such that an alliance of them can instakill a boss? or do we 2) Adjust Meteor so it is in line with the intended parameters? Consider the repercussions of each. If every boss fight becomes trivial by stacking 18 of one job, the game would become boring very quickly and people would quit. If Meteor was nerfed, some black mages would be upset but everybody would be having more fun overall.

Conclusion: Buffing isn't always the best policy.

Ask yourself if there is anything about what is being changed on BST that fits in either of these categories (Because I honestly don't know as I'm not a BST)

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Ask yourself what's better: Annoying a few people with a nerf to one class and having a better balanced game, or making people giddy by buffing everything else that isn't up to the same bar but potentially breaking the game more in the process.

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Except when that nerf never applies to SAM.
I'm all about going outside the box when it comes to strategies, but there's been a few times that SE has been a complete Douche about things, unless it's to SAM. BSTs commands haven't changed for a super long time, but because people aren't 'taking risks,' they are like: 'Nope, can't have that'. Yet they don't blink an eye when SAMs sit back and plink out ranged attacks VS Delve Mobs, even though they're a 'Front Line' job. And further still when THF wants to have access to more Marksmanship WS and higher bolts, they can't for whatever reason, even though they have the Same skill ranking that SAMs do in Archery. Or when all the MNKs H2H got nerfed, etc... I want to see DRK, DRGs, and WARs do more things, but that isn't happening. Often times it isn't the jobs but the CONTENT that's the problem. Mobs with AoEs so huge they still hit you even though you're way outside of even casting range, or Mobs that spam move after move.

Here's the bottom line. BST pets don't do more damage than other jobs. Depending on the target monster, Other jobs like SAM, THF, DNC, BLU, SMN, BLM etc. beat them handily. PLD is still the king of tanks by a million miles on most things bar the occasional magic heavy NM where PLD is still probably just as good as RUN and miles ahead of NIN (Balance needed). BSTs can't heal or buff at all. The one thing BST pets can do better than other jobs, because of their high HP is absorb a lot of damage in a short time (IE. huge AOEs that do like 2,500 damage that would kill the whole front line in one shot). They cannot sustain high damage over time due to them only being capable of healing once a minute. So something that hits quickly and / or for high damage which could be blink tanked by any job /nin and or be continuously healed back by a WHM, would kill a pet due to the length of reward's timer. But they can survive the big nasty one shot AOE moves as long as they don't happen too often. If the paladin dies, the pets generally die quickly afterwards unless the PLD gets back up and grabs hate again (much like PC do). The high HP of the pet is literally the only advantage. By putting the master in range of the same AOE attacks that you were trying to use pets to absorb, you take away the only thing the job has going for it. Another thing that contributes to that problem is the fact that 50% of BSTs pet damage and a large part of the pet's defense come from a few pices of level 75 gear that offer no defensive stats at all for the master. It is literally doing 120-150 content in level 75 -99 gear.

So with that in mind, they could level the playing field by simply raising the HP of Player Characters. It's sorely needed and long over due. NM TP moves have gotten stronger and stronger, but player HP has barely moved. I'm not talking about retooling every weapon skill, Job ability and monster. I'm talking about a couple basic things like HP and defense.

All that's neither here nor there though, because the fact of the matter is there are better ways to do pretty much everything than just throwing BSTs at it and the player base has no one but themselves to blame if that is what's happening. If you read the various "I hate beast master" threads or go to BG, ffxiah etc., You'll see that all the new content is getting smashed by summoners and ,mage parties and many people are doing it just fine with melee groups. This is just the latest in a long line of misplaced nerfs and adjustments that ignore the core problems with the game.

EDIT: Alternatively, they could lower pets HP and the timer on reward, to bring it closer to that of a normal player's functionality. The range thing completely castrates the job.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I'll provide some exmaples where buffs and nerfs are best practice:

Example 1: Job X has Spell or ability Y that is never used in the game because either a bug or poor attributes of the spell/ability render it inferior to other comparable effects e.g. it's useless. Best solution: Buff the useless thing such that it isn't useless. In this case, the thing(s) that are below par are best upgraded to be meet the expected performance standard.
Example 2: Job X has spell or ability Y that is being used more than anything else in the game because it trivializes an encounter or has unintended effects due to a bug or issue. Solution: Fix the issue or nerf the effect such that

In-context hypothetical example. Suppose people find out that an alliance of black mages can kill anything in the game in one go with three meteors, no other job can do it. Do we 1) Buff every other job such that an alliance of them can instakill a boss? or do we 2) Adjust Meteor so it is in line with the intended parameters? Consider the repercussions of each. If every boss fight becomes trivial by stacking 18 of one job, the game would become boring very quickly and people would quit. If Meteor was nerfed, some black mages would be upset but everybody would be having more fun overall.

Conclusion: Buffing isn't always the best policy.

Ask yourself if there is anything about what is being changed on BST that fits in either of these categories (Because I honestly don't know as I'm not a BST)

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I don't feel that this is the situation with BST here. It's been proven that other jobs can do the content, and can do it better and faster without BST. The BST strat seems to have been the initial strat to beat the content, so as usual, the player base adopted that as the official 'cookie' cutter strat to start with. From what I've heard from friends, DDs have been frustrated in general by this, and it seems like BST has gotten caught in the cross fire, but my friends enjoy figuring out content vs. following the pack, so they don't seem typical (I always appreciated my friends, but never more than lately).

If this were the case here, using your BLM example, there are other things that could be done rather than insisting BLMs nuke from close range. SE has adjusted resistances to damage in the past, among other things.

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I don't feel that this is the situation with BST here.

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In case I somehow didn't make that clear before, I'm not saying that it is. I'm only saying that anytime something that gets seen as a nerf comes up, it's basically obligatory that people will come in and say "instead of nerfing this, buff everything else!"

Again, I know little of BST or even why this change was made, I'm merely commenting on the inevitable clamor for buffs over nerfs. The fact is sometimes one is appropriate, and sometimes the other is appropriate. I just get the impression that some people don't realize you can't just buff everything that isn't the best.

The only comment I can make about BST itself in regards to this issue is that I'm not really certain what the change is supposed to accomplish. The way it reads almost sounds like its intent was just to annoy people.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

In case I somehow didn't make that clear before, I'm not saying that it is. I'm only saying that anytime something that gets seen as a nerf comes up, it's basically obligatory that people will come in and say "instead of nerfing this, buff everything else!"

Again, I know little of BST or even why this change was made, I'm merely commenting on the inevitable clamor for buffs over nerfs. The fact is sometimes one is appropriate, and sometimes the other is appropriate. I just get the impression that some people don't realize you can't just buff everything that isn't the best.

The only comment I can make about BST itself in regards to this issue is that I'm not really certain what the change is supposed to accomplish. The way it reads almost sounds like its intent was just to annoy people.

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I thought you were clear, and I liked how you made this a more general balance discussion vs. attacking any job. I started to weigh in with the discussion on balancing generally, but to be honest, with the wide range that Job Points adds, I find balancing hard to discuss, especially in a forum (even on skype with friends it's hard to pin down). So I answered with how I feel about BST in this situation since you said you didn't know about BST. It's not like they suddenly gave BST range. Range is the way we've fought harder content for as long as I can remember, even back to the charming days, when we scrambled like crazy charming mobs to throw at NMs. I guess the reason this annoys me so much is I do almost feel like it was just purely BST hate, not any real sense of balancing the content out.

For me, the only answer I feel comfortable with on balance is, forget what other jobs can do, can I get together with friends and get stuff done with the jobs we enjoy playing, even if it takes some trial and error to figure out.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The only comment I can make about BST itself in regards to this issue is that I'm not really certain what the change is supposed to accomplish. The way it reads almost sounds like its intent was just to annoy people.

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Basically a bunch of people were mad that people were using BST in places where they usually would use SAM and they complained until SE decided to do something about it. So SE came up with a change that will make it so that NO ONE wants to use BST for anything. It didn't balance anything. It just made a bunch of haters happy and a bunch of other people pissed off. The funniest part about this is that it won't help front line jobs like SAM at all because RNG, SMN, BLM SCH and GEO still do better damage from a safe distance and no one wants to get near NMs these days. SE didn't look at WHY people are using BST at all. They just shot the messenger.

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Originally Posted by bazookatooth

Basically a bunch of people were mad that people were using BST in places where they usually would use SAM and they complained until SE decided to do something about it. So SE came up with a change that will make it so that NO ONE wants to use BST for anything. It didn't balance anything. It just made a bunch of haters happy and a bunch of other people pissed off. The funniest part about this is that it won't help front line jobs like SAM at all because RNG, SMN, BLM SCH and GEO still do better damage from a safe distance and no one wants to get near NMs these days. SE didn't look at WHY people are using BST at all. They just shot the messenger.

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I don't like the change as much as anyone else but you folks are taking it way out of proportion. All this change does is separate the good BST players from the weak ones. Timing will be everything when it comes to this change, Instead of just standing in one spot and throwing mulsims and rewards and using JA's, you actually have to move. The good BST players will adapt, the ones that can't handle it? You might as well play different job. That will be me. I might just jump to ranger LOL

I'd hardly say that running in and out makes you good. It just makes things annoying. The only pet you can do that with and still put out anywhere near decent damage is the cricket. Any other pet and your'e going to have to stay in range as animation delay and a short ready timer won't allow you to run out.

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Originally Posted by Bizniztyme

I don't like the change as much as anyone else but you folks are taking it way out of proportion. All this change does is separate the good BST players from the weak ones. Timing will be everything when it comes to this change, Instead of just standing in one spot and throwing mulsims and rewards and using JA's, you actually have to move. The good BST players will adapt, the ones that can't handle it? You might as well play different job. That will be me. I might just jump to ranger LOL

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This is nonsense. With needing to use timers every 10 or less seconds, you can't possibly move in and out of range in any sensible way. BST is dead with this change. There will be not be a single event where it is useful.

Well I wouldn't say that it's -entirely- useless, but we took a major hit for sure. We might have to stagger our Ready time a bit and hold back when we suspect a TP move is coming, or stay in melee and cycle pets out on our timers, but we can still do -something-. Still, it's a nerf that's going to hit us hard regardless of how we can adapt to it.