Summoner's Blood Pact Update/JP Categories

So it's been somewhat quiet, but I was really wonder, can SMN have a few things looked at?

We have a few Blood Pacts that are still underwhelming, and some that just fall off the radar completely.

• Noctoshield is still extremely under-powered for lvl 99+
• Earthen Ward - I'm sure if it even applies the 119 lvl because it's often times gone within 1 hit.
• Lunar Cry is somewhat useless unless you happen to be fighting something at the correct phase of the moon
• Dream Shroud is all about time of day
• Diamond Storm is -25 Eva when other jobs like BST can do -40 with Ready at a much lower level.
• Pavor Nocturnus might as well not even be, because most of the time it doesn't hit at all.
• Zantetsuken also fails so much when it comes to killing things, even when it's just 1 target.
• Regal Gash/Blindside are HORRIBLE, even more so when compared to the Lvl 70 Blood Pact: Rages of all the other avatars.
• Pacifying Ruby still causes more Enmity than it can erase for a SMN.

I'm not 100% sure how to fix all of these, but I do have a few ideas:

Noctoshield can be helped with a boost from 13 to maybe 20 ( I believe the max for Phalanx 1 is like 38?)

Earthen Ward at 119 should stop 288 of a Cap 350, so only a 62 point difference, but that's again if it actually does that.

I hate most of Fenrir's Blood pacts. I get it, he's a Moon Pup, but Either his BPs should have their cycle removed, or a higher base infliction. Because we gain Diamond Storm, We can't use Lunar Cry because of the -EVA effect it has. I personally wouldn't mind it just being a -ACC Blood Pact, but I guess that -1 EVA might be help at lower levels? And then there's also Ecliptic Howl/Growl, both of these could be FAR more useful it they weren't tied to the lunar cycle. Because a +1 ACC when you really need much higher is extremely unfortunate.

Likewise, Dream Shroud could do without the timer or an increase for the offset skill. Such as 10/5% and then switch at their respected times, or maybe like 8%MAB/7%MDB at all times.

Diamond Storm could really do a boost to -35 EVA, the same as RDM Distract I. This isn't so much to ask for because RDM gets Distract II at 85 which is -50 EVA

Pavor Nocturnus needs helps in a major way... It needs to either be useful with other forms of sleep besides Nightmare, or Needs to Add DMG if the Target has no effects to be dispelled, something....

Zantetsuken... This Astral Flow Ability and ALL Astral Flow Abilities need to be jacked to the extreme... It's a level 75 Ability and can't even kill most things outside of Adoulin. The Frontal Cone needs to be widened or changed to a True AoE. Also, at 100+ this ability should do more that 9999. If a non-Astral Flow move can, so should this.

Pacifying Ruby... I've got nothing.... I usually just end up being wailed on after I use it...

As for the Job Point Categories: Could we look at or clarify at least

Astral Flow Effect: I'm not sure how this exactly work, but I don't know if a +75 (Max JP) to their stats really helps in the long run. Most times you use Astral Flow, it's for Perfect Defense which is MP based, and ends the effect anyway. Maybe a 'Blood Boon' type thing might be better, where not all you MP is consumed from using Astral Flow? Maybe extend the timer for Astral so you can maybe get another one or 2 in.

Avatar's Favor Effect: Is there anyway that this could be looked at so that the value increase is 5 seconds vs 3. With the Value at 5, once you max this skill, you're Avatar's Favor would be at the zenith of its potential, which is both extremely reward for SMN that play this as their main job, and extremely useful for things that would require a quick swap of Avatar's (I.E. switching from Carbuncle to help front line jobs, to Diabolos to help support Back line jobs, or the need to switch from Titan to help with physical hits to Cait Sith so not to be nuked to death.)

These are just some things that I've noticed. There might be even more that I've missed too. But currently I'm having an extremely hard time landing some of the magic abilities anyway in higher level stuff. So I need to start a +MACC gear set at some point.

Are you using Zantetsuken with 1188 mp? I've never had it miss a lone target, as long as I had the required mp for maximum accuracy (12 * level = 1188).

Earthen Ward and Noctoshield: I totally agree they should scale, for something you can only do once every 30 seconds, Earthen Ward especially is very not worth while most the time and yet stoneskin itself is a great spell. It should at least be like Aerial Armor imo, which is very useful. Noctoshield, it doesn't scale either. It does have the duration on it's side however, and I rarely see a scholar apply phalanx to everyone. To me the idea of a lot of these wards are have a super strong, party wide buff, but if it's dispelled or you need to balance it with other wards for the situation you might not get the chance to use it. These two are very weak, but I do use them at times.

For fenrir and diabolos mechanics on moon phase and time of day, I believe that is fine. Fenrir can debuff, or buff or both to have the same effect, and I read somewhere that diamond storm is more that -25 but not sure where. -25 would be pretty low though for a lot of these debuffs/buffs for evasion/accuracy. I love fenrir and use him constantly, the + to all stats, the endrain during the right moon phase, impact, dispel-ga, and sometimes his evasion/accuracy buffs/debuffs make him one of my most used summons. I'm not sure the evasion downs don't stack, but if they don't then yah during certain moon phases you aren't gonna be able to lend near what you usually good to accuracy and evasion down.

Pavor Nocturnus deserves testing, if you have nightmare on a level 80 beetle and use it, it has a nearly 100% activation rate. Why use it? Idk, maybe you nightmare a group of low level stuff and then use night terror on one mob and pavor on another? It is a ward that can kill things. I tried it on level 100 mobs, but the activation rate seems to sink to like 25%. Meaning against high level mobs it'd almost never hit. I was going to try it with more summoning skill and pet magic accuracy and other stats to see if it had an effect.

Regal Gash/Blindside are pretty weak, though I was wondering if Blindside might have some mechanic like doing extra damage while the enemy is blinded or slept or something like how night terror does 40% more damage to slept enemies, and Pavor has a lot better chance of going off (pretty much doesn't go off without nightmare on it, even to a level 1 bunny) while slept/nightmare is on. Regal Gash just seems to be super weak and I doubt there's a way to help that.

What I'd like to see is Cait Sith finished out as an avatar, she's still missing about 2-3 pacts to be a full avatar and I really wish I could summon her more, she's fun and one of the cooler characters and designs ffxi has to offer! :D Her 1 hour is great for wipes or putting RR 3 on people, but I often only use her to prep for fights with RR 2, and when people died. As lucky as she is, she only seems to pop up when things went bad. Eerie eye seems to have great potential but is bugged, I use it and make sure they're facing Cait Sith and yet just after I use eerie eye and i didn't get any resist messages 2 seconds later the mob is using a TP move. Just seems wrong :( It doesn't even last 30 seconds so you can keep it up, maybe it doesn't work at all. Mewling Lullaby is a great light based sleep with a huge area and it resets TP. Very happy with that move. Level ? Holy, I wanted to test and see if lightsday would give you more 1s but the only use i found for it was pulling huge amounts of mobs, using level ? holy then mewling lullaby right after, and you can do decent damage that way. The problem is, the mobs it's prone to work on die pretty quickly and the ones that it has a lower chance to work on just there a long time until you roll enough low number rolls, usually 1s. So I'd like to see Cait Sith given 2-3 more pacts so she is a full avatar, that and Siren added as a summon as she was originally intended to be (I read that she was in the game files a long time before Rhapsodies came out and had abilities defined for her) :( But one can dream.

Having another hyrbrid pact or having other good pacts like spinning dive looked at or explained would also be good, having a list of the potency of all the favors by rank would also be good.

Astral Flow job point category: This is simply an amazing category, boosting stats and using it with astral conduit makes you feel like you are actually channeling Vana'diels most powerful creatures once ever hour please don't touch this :D

Avatar's Favor: Potency increases every 3 seconds your avatar is out, so 5 seconds is a bit weird number to suggest. There is currently 10 ranks to favor, if I remember correctly, one from gift and 2 from horn, I'll have to look up how things increase again but it doesn't take long now with an avatar out and a pact used and gift and horn to reach peak and when these job points go to 30 it might well be instant.

In other news however, we get a carbuncle hat very happy about that ^^

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Originally Posted by AtrixWolfe

For fenrir and diabolos mechanics on moon phase and time of day, I believe that is fine. Fenrir can debuff, or buff or both to have the same effect, and I read somewhere that diamond storm is more that -25 but not sure where. -25 would be pretty low though for a lot of these debuffs/buffs for evasion/accuracy. I love fenrir and use him constantly, the + to all stats, the endrain during the right moon phase, impact, dispel-ga, and sometimes his evasion/accuracy buffs/debuffs make him one of my most used summons. I'm not sure the evasion downs don't stack, but if they don't then yah during certain moon phases you aren't gonna be able to lend near what you usually good to accuracy and evasion down.

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I should clarify, I love Fenrir but don't like the Blood Pacts that are tied to the Moon's phases, Because Heavenward Howl would be amazing if it gave EnDrain because most Melees can use it. Giving EnAspir to job that don't need it VS something that doesn't have MP to begin with then makes it useless. The only Job that really benefits from Enaspir is BLU. RUNs can't take effect of it because of their Runes, and PLDs don't want either because it screws up Enlight. Lunar Roar, Eclipse Bite, Impact, Moonlit Charge, Crescent Bite, Lunar Bay are all great Blood Pacts, but only 1 of them is actually a Ward. Which sucks because his wards have the greatest potential. Eclipse Howl gives +26 to both EVA and ACC but divided between them: So New Moon, (Much like the Movie) sucks for Accuracy (Only giving +1) Where if they could shift the primary to still be awesome, but the offset to still be useful. Such as the lower Value for either to be +5, leaving the +21 for the other and doing a slower shift through the moon phases. Which is what I was also going for with Dream Shroud, It give a 1-0% increase for it's offset side. Where if the made it so that from 00:00-11:59 gave the same bonus and the inverse from 12:00-23:59, rather than a waning effect the closer you got to those times

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Originally Posted by AtrixWolfe

Pavor Nocturnus deserves testing, if you have nightmare on a level 80 beetle and use it, it has a nearly 100% activation rate. Why use it? Idk, maybe you nightmare a group of low level stuff and then use night terror on one mob and pavor on another? It is a ward that can kill things. I tried it on level 100 mobs, but the activation rate seems to sink to like 25%. Meaning against high level mobs it'd almost never hit. I was going to try it with more summoning skill and pet magic accuracy and other stats to see if it had an effect.

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I try to use this for Crowd control, where things link/aggro. But the problem is that if Apogee isn't ready, I can't use Pavor/Nightmare Back to back. Which sometime, you need to otherwise whatever you're fighting will wake up before your timer is ready again. :/

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Originally Posted by AtrixWolfe

What I'd like to see is Cait Sith finished out as an avatar, she's still missing about 2-3 pacts to be a full avatar and I really wish I could summon her more, she's fun and one of the cooler characters and designs ffxi has to offer! :D Her 1 hour is great for wipes or putting RR 3 on people, but I often only use her to prep for fights with RR 2, and when people died. As lucky as she is, she only seems to pop up when things went bad. Eerie eye seems to have great potential but is bugged, I use it and make sure they're facing Cait Sith and yet just after I use eerie eye and i didn't get any resist messages 2 seconds later the mob is using a TP move. Just seems wrong :( It doesn't even last 30 seconds so you can keep it up, maybe it doesn't work at all. Mewling Lullaby is a great light based sleep with a huge area and it resets TP. Very happy with that move. Level ? Holy, I wanted to test and see if lightsday would give you more 1s but the only use i found for it was pulling huge amounts of mobs, using level ? holy then mewling lullaby right after, and you can do decent damage that way. The problem is, the mobs it's prone to work on die pretty quickly and the ones that it has a lower chance to work on just there a long time until you roll enough low number rolls, usually 1s. So I'd like to see Cait Sith given 2-3 more pacts so she is a full avatar, that and Siren added as a summon as she was originally intended to be (I read that she was in the game files a long time before Rhapsodies came out and had abilities defined for her) :( But one can dream.

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I use Cait Sith all the time in Dynamis, she's my go to girl. I just wish that Mewing Lullaby and Eerie Eye lasted a little longer. But she's so weak, and it sucks that even with all the +ACC and Max Summoning Skills, I can barely break 5k with her lvl 99 Ability. She could definitely use a few more BPs, and then she might see the field more often. As for Siren, I'd LOVE to have her. She could perhaps even get Silencega which would be nice, because Eerie Eye is the only STFU Move we've got.

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Originally Posted by AtrixWolfe

Astral Flow job point category: This is simply an amazing category, boosting stats and using it with astral conduit makes you feel like you are actually channeling Vana'diels most powerful creatures once ever hour please don't touch this :D

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I have really put too many points into this, because I wasn't sure the utility of it, maybe I'll try it out some, and how much the effect really helps.

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Originally Posted by AtrixWolfe

Avatar's Favor: Potency increases every 3 seconds your avatar is out, so 5 seconds is a bit weird number to suggest. There is currently 10 ranks to favor, if I remember correctly, one from gift and 2 from horn, I'll have to look up how things increase again but it doesn't take long now with an avatar out and a pact used and gift and horn to reach peak and when these job points go to 30 it might well be instant.

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If they do actually increase them to 30 then this change would be mute, because it takes 1m15s to reach the max value, and a minute and a half, is way over. But if 15 is the highest they go to, the change to 5s means it starts at the 1m15s marker, but either is fine. Raise the limit to 30, woot!! (or change it to 5 so max favor if you're staying at 15 :D)

Totally agree here. The implicit trade off between Summoner's raw solo potential vs. say a BST or PUP is our suite of support BPs, but sadly many of them haven't been reviewed since introduction 10+ years ago.

For the old-line avatars;

I'd also add Whispering Wind (Garuda AOE heal) to the list along with

Earth Ward
Ecliptic Growl/Howl
Notocshield
Dreamshroud

In need of scaling at 99/119. Base heal needs to 500+ for whispering Wind
All of these are IMHO easily fixable by extending the buff formulas to account for lvl99/i119 players without breaking the old formulas since we know SE still has a thing for keeping things as they were for players leveling to 75 for the 1st time
or exploring a job up the levels for the 1st time.

For the new avatars, Cait Sith needs a buff. Eerie Eye is so weak that it was embrassing a BLM silence outlasted Cait Sith's silence on an even match NM like Intuila,
Atomos I feel also needs a buff, one idea I have is allow it to 'remember' a party buff when initially summoned. So that when you summon it again for Chronoshift, it will reapply buffs.

This could actually be useful for instant reapplication of a long series of complicated buffs.

Just gonna throw a *BUMP* on this. Any thing for SMN and our BPs? Also maybe a that change to the Avatar's Favor JP Category? See how 20 is going to be the highest it'll go. Make it so the effect starts at max (4s instead of 3). Change to the 1200 gift!? Cait Sith's Other BPs, Siren, other Avatars? Anything??

Glad to see this get a bump. Our heals and other pacts should treat ilvl as if it were an actual level, this really affects things like whispering wind and other healing pacts. Stoneskin and Phalanx should scale with summoning skill just like a lot of BLU spells got Blue Magic Skill to affect their spells lately :) Additionally I have one more thing: merit categories. No other job I know of has to switch out their merits so much, or at all. Yet if we are doing a magic burst strategy in escha sky for example, I might have to change my merits 3-4 times a night just so I can have merit pacts of the element needed for the fight. A lot of people say pick 2 and leave it, and you can use the tier IV spells avatars have access to, to magic burst. The problem is you're going to do about 30% of the damage you would if you had a 5/5 merit pact for the proper element. I'm not sure SE wants to address this, but while merit's are cheap... spending them just to change elemental pacts all the time is not the best design feature I have seen for smn :P

This has been something i've mentioned countless times in the past as most of our 75- wards are still stuck in the glory days of 75 cap. It also goes along the lines of whats the point of hoarding summoning magic skill gear when the majority of skills that use summoning magic to calculate how well it does are capped? I would also like to see our 1200jp changed from -5bp as with just the first -5bp we got its easy to get to the 30second mark. I just hope we don't get another as our 2100 gift as it would be beyond useless for even a poorly equipped summoner at that point.

I think our 2100 gift would be nice to get some new summons like maybe Siren and chibi odin/alex but with our luck it will either be another -5bp or they will think its a great idea the neo-elementals but again thats up for debate as we have no control over elementals.

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Originally Posted by Secondplanet

This has been something i've mentioned countless times in the past as most of our 75- wards are still stuck in the glory days of 75 cap. It also goes along the lines of whats the point of hoarding summoning magic skill gear when the majority of skills that use summoning magic to calculate how well it does are capped? I would also like to see our 1200jp changed from -5bp as with just the first -5bp we got its easy to get to the 30second mark. I just hope we don't get another as our 2100 gift as it would be beyond useless for even a poorly equipped summoner at that point.

I think our 2100 gift would be nice to get some new summons like maybe Siren and chibi odin/alex but with our luck it will either be another -5bp or they will think its a great idea the neo-elementals but again thats up for debate as we have no control over elementals.

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Those Elementals as a Gift would be nice, and seeing how they have TP moves, controlling them with Rage and Even Ward Makes a lot of sense, but I'm hoping for a few pick me ups, and some new avatars to ring out the game for us with a bang! I mean SMN as a whole played a HUGE story element for Windy, not to mention, it's the only job that I know of that changes the 'Skyscape.' That Rainbow... I really wish I had taken a picture of it when I completed the quest.

While we can’t promise that we’ll improve summoner blood pacts, we’ll consider looking into this in the future.

Do you even play Summoner? Seems like you don't know too much about the job or the current usage. Not saying I disagree with you on many things, but you seem to not understand some things.

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Originally Posted by Zeargi

• Zantetsuken also fails so much when it comes to killing things, even when it's just 1 target.

Zantetsuken ACC is based on MP/MaxMP and number of targets. The formula is (MP/MaxMP)/NumOfTargets
so if you have 100% MP it will kill 1 target 100% of the time or two targets with 50% chance each. That means it *could* miss both targets but the chance of that happening is lower. If you're aiming it at 20 monsters then even at 100% MP that's only a 5% chance to kill each monster.

Zantetsuken... This Astral Flow Ability and ALL Astral Flow Abilities need to be jacked to the extreme... It's a level 75 Ability and can't even kill most things outside of Adoulin. The Frontal Cone needs to be widened or changed to a True AoE. Also, at 100+ this ability should do more that 9999. If a non-Astral Flow move can, so should this.

Yes it should do significantly more than 9999 damage, but read above for the rest.

Astral Flow Effect: I'm not sure how this exactly work, but I don't know if a +75 (Max JP) to their stats really helps in the long run. Most times you use Astral Flow, it's for Perfect Defense which is MP based, and ends the effect anyway. Maybe a 'Blood Boon' type thing might be better, where not all you MP is consumed from using Astral Flow? Maybe extend the timer for Astral so you can maybe get another one or 2 in.
DEAR GOD PLEASE DON'T TOUCH THIS UNLESS YOU'RE MAKING IT STRONGER! +75 to all stats, soon to be +100 to all stats is EXTREMELY POTENT. You notice it instantly. If you're not noticing the boost in damage, you may want to look at getting better gear.

Who the hell uses Perfect Defense anymore, and for what? I haven't used it since SoA came out.

I'm having an extremely hard time landing some of the magic abilities anyway in higher level stuff. So I need to start a +MACC gear set at some point.
I say this in the nicest way possible, it seems like you need better gear in general and you need to read up on how abilities work before you assume they suck.
You absolutely do need a M.ACC set. You should aim to at least have ACC (I do Helios ACC/DA/Haste), Magical BP set, Physical BP set, Hybrid set (for Flaming Crush and Burning Strike), M.ACC set, and Summoning skill set.
Fast cast, Elemental Siphon, Pet: PDT, Nuking set (for when /SCH on relevant content.)

I'm sure I've missed something, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

While we can’t promise that we’ll improve summoner blood pacts, we’ll consider looking into this in the future.

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Thanks for answering our call >^.^<
We're not asking to make them on par with any job but at their current state a great deal of our wards are stuck in the glory days of 75 when content is now 119-130.
Cheers

Genoxd, typing your replies inside the quote makes it really difficult to follow what you're saying.

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Originally Posted by Genoxd

Zantetsuken ACC is based on MP/MaxMP and number of targets. The formula is (MP/MaxMP)/NumOfTargets
so if you have 100% MP it will kill 1 target 100% of the time or two targets with 50% chance each. That means it *could* miss both targets but the chance of that happening is lower. If you're aiming it at 20 monsters then even at 100% MP that's only a 5% chance to kill each monster.

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There are things that resist Death, and in general the Astral Flows are extremely underwhelming. And again, Regardless of Targets, for something that should be a dire straights technique, if the targets aren't in front, then it misses them entirely. These are abilities that can be used once every hour, and over all their effectiveness vs. MP Cost is horrible!

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Originally Posted by Genoxd

DEAR GOD PLEASE DON'T TOUCH THIS UNLESS YOU'RE MAKING IT STRONGER! +75 to all stats, soon to be +100 to all stats is EXTREMELY POTENT. You notice it instantly. If you're not noticing the boost in damage, you may want to look at getting better gear.

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No, the reason I don't notice it, is because I don't put JPs into it. You're not the first person to say something about not changing, so that's fine, I had also asked for clarification as well. But it's completely sad, that our 1hr ability as been reduced to simply put our avatars on roids and not even use the ability that it unlocks.

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Originally Posted by Genoxd

Who the hell uses Perfect Defense anymore, and for what? I haven't used it since SoA came out.

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It still has its uses. 95% Damage Reduction, Status Resist+, the only thing it need to add to the list is Death and Doom, Seeing how it is a Light Based BP. So that then falls to what you just said about changing the JP Category, 'Just because you don't use it, doesn't mean that others don't.'

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Originally Posted by Genoxd

I say this in the nicest way possible, it seems like you need better gear in general and you need to read up on how abilities work before you assume they suck.
You absolutely do need a M.ACC set. You should aim to at least have ACC (I do Helios ACC/DA/Haste), Magical BP set, Physical BP set, Hybrid set (for Flaming Crush and Burning Strike), M.ACC set, and Summoning skill set.
Fast cast, Elemental Siphon, Pet: PDT, Nuking set (for when /SCH on relevant content.)

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While I don't have the 'OMG I'm so SUPER ELITE' gear, I'm not running around in Sparks and have some crappy ilvl 109 sachet. And I know I need a MACC set, it's something I said previously that I needed to work on. Plus, it seems to me that more people agree with me on the fact that the most of the BPs need to be updated (Including some of the Reps). So rather than trying to belittle me under the gross misconception that I don't know the job, perhaps offer up more info and better ideas.

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Originally Posted by Zeargi

There are things that resist Death, and in general the Astral Flows are extremely underwhelming. And again, Regardless of Targets, for something that should be a dire straights technique, if the targets aren't in front, then it misses them entirely. These are abilities that can be used once every hour, and over all their effectiveness vs. MP Cost is horrible!

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If it resists death then Odin will do damage instead. Naturally no monster or player has any resistance to death. NMs are immune to it and players can equip armor that gives them the trait. If you have 100% MP Odin will kill any single non-NM mob 100% of the time without fail. Yes the fact that it's a cone attack is annoying, but it gives you the ability to aim it at a certain number of monsters so you can make the choice of do I want to kill this single monster with 100% chance or do I want to risk trying to kill 5 monsters but have it completely miss all of them.

While the damage part is very sad and needs updating, I do understand why the death aspect of it remains untouched. I used Odin every Incursion run to kill the 2 mega-adds that come with the mega-boss. You end up killing both mobs 25% of the time, killing one 50% of the time and missing completely 25% of the time (which actually never happened to me.) If your party takes the time to line them up with the NM then you also do 9999 to the boss as a bonus.

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Originally Posted by Zeargi

No, the reason I don't notice it, is because I don't put JPs into it. You're not the first person to say something about not changing, so that's fine, I had also asked for clarification as well. But it's completely sad, that our 1hr ability as been reduced to simply put our avatars on roids and not even use the ability that it unlocks.

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I actually do use the 1hr abilities if I need AoE. While I agree they suck on single target damage, and I would love to see a damage boost regardless, they are unique because their damage equation does not factor in number of targets. Magic spells usually do reduced damage the more targets you hit, but the SMN 1hr BPs will do the same damage to all targets (pending resists per target) which is actually quite powerful.

Also the fact that you haven't put anything into a whole category tells me you're probably missing a lot of job points which means you're missing a lot of MAB/M.ACC/ATT/ACC, which is then compounded by what seems to be a lack of gear for current content. So I suggest you consider this when wondering why things like Dispel from Pavor Nocturnus miss all the time.

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Originally Posted by Zeargi

It still has its uses. 95% Damage Reduction, Status Resist+, the only thing it need to add to the list is Death and Doom, Seeing how it is a Light Based BP. So that then falls to what you just said about changing the JP Category, 'Just because you don't use it, doesn't mean that others don't.'

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I know what it does, thanks. I asked for an example. What content do you actually use it on still? Now that job points exist the damage boost from Astral Flow far out weighs anything I could think of using PD on. It's not even worth it for things it use to have a use on anymore, like ADL: Astral Flow + Astral Conduit + Flaming Crush x3 = dead.

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Originally Posted by Zeargi

While I don't have the 'OMG I'm so SUPER ELITE' gear, I'm not running around in Sparks and have some crappy ilvl 109 sachet. And I know I need a MACC set, it's something I said previously that I needed to work on. Plus, it seems to me that more people agree with me on the fact that the most of the BPs need to be updated (Including some of the Reps). So rather than trying to belittle me under the gross misconception that I don't know the job, perhaps offer up more info and better ideas.

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You ignored the opening of my post before the quote section where I said
"Do you even play Summoner? Seems like you don't know too much about the job or the current usage. Not saying I disagree with you on many things, but you seem to not understand some things."
Notice how I said I'm NOT disagreeing with you on many things. Lots of the BP changes are valid, some (like the ones I listed) are probably considered too powerful if changed.

Honestly you should complain about the fact that we have no good Light avatars. Carbuncle is extremely weak and Searing Light is practically worthless. The only real use I've had for Carbuncle is one single monster in delve. All of Carbuncles stats are pathetically low which serves no purpose anymore, trusts already make the game easy-mode for low levels so no reason to not make him more powerful. The same can be said for Cait, though his utility is significantly higher so he can get away with being a crap avatar.

I have played SMN since before NA release and I can tell you it's in the best state it has ever been in. The utility and damage we bring to a party has actually finally been noticed. It's not just a 1 trick pony like when everyone wanted us for PD zergs or Nether Blast. All SMN really needs to solidify its position in content is BP recast III either through Gifts or gear.

While the BP Ward changes you want are nice, and imo needed, they actually won't do too much for getting SMN slots in a PT. It's unlikely someone will bring SMN to a PT because their stoneskin now caps at 350.
How often does SCH give the PT stoneskin, once at the start?
Phalanx boost is nice, but PLD and RUN have Phalanx now, and again how often does a SCH give the PT Phalanx, once at the start?
Diamond storm doesn't stack with RDM which is honestly a bigger issue than the potency.
Lunar Cry, when useful, is more potent than Diamond Storm which is nice but also does not stack.
I don't care if they keep the time of day thing for Dream Shroud but it really needs a boost because MAB+10 at cap is a joke at 119 when you can get 50-60+ on a single piece of armor.
The same can be said of Ecliptic Growl, +1~7 to stats is a joke. At 119 Ecliptic Growl should be giving around +1~45.

While you are correct in some aspects of things, like my lack of JPs and my missing the Nirvana, but your demeanor in this matter is my major gripe. You've done nothing but talk down to me, and I'll clue you in... You're not the only person that's played SMN since the NA release, it's not some grand thing that you get to hang on you mantle as being superior to the rest of the SMN community. Yes, SMN is in a great place, much better than all the problems it had before, but it still can be something greater, which is why I post here the most. I love this Job, and it's always been my favorite, and its multiple incarnations across the series as a whole. THAT is why I ignored your first statement. Yes, The Light Avatars suck, and I've got no clue how best to fix them, that why I didn't put anything here. The reason why my SMN isn't as good as it could be is, because I don't focus on it solely. I try my best to gear myself across lots of jobs to help the few people in my LS. Yes, I'm behind on content, but take the time I can to help out others. I'd be more than happy to post the gear I do have and the JPs, and much more willing to figure out where to go from there. Again, offer up better idea, info, and other things that can be supportive instead of trying your best to inflate your Ego higher.

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Originally Posted by Zeargi

While you are correct in some aspects of things, like my lack of JPs and my missing the Nirvana, but your demeanor in this matter is my major gripe. You've done nothing but talk down to me, and I'll clue you in... You're not the only person that's played SMN since the NA release, it's not some grand thing that you get to hang on you mantle as being superior to the rest of the SMN community. Yes, SMN is in a great place, much better than all the problems it had before, but it still can be something greater, which is why I post here the most. I love this Job, and it's always been my favorite, and its multiple incarnations across the series as a whole. THAT is why I ignored your first statement. Yes, The Light Avatars suck, and I've got no clue how best to fix them, that why I didn't put anything here. The reason why my SMN isn't as good as it could be is, because I don't focus on it solely. I try my best to gear myself across lots of jobs to help the few people in my LS. Yes, I'm behind on content, but take the time I can to help out others. I'd be more than happy to post the gear I do have and the JPs, and much more willing to figure out where to go from there. Again, offer up better idea, info, and other things that can be supportive instead of trying your best to inflate your Ego higher.

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I'm not the one that created a thread on how to fix SMN without understanding many aspects of the job :)

Guys you both have valid points and Genoxd you are obviously a more experienced summoner than most, but can we take the hostility and finger pointing down a notch, pretty please? Makes us all look bad when this happens. There are ways to express your opinions and insights without upsetting people Genoxd, you'll probably find people listen better if you do too.

I hope that our utility pacts are updated to reflect ilvl and skill most of all, and second most of all I hope our Astral Flow pacts are taken a look at. Avatar's Favor puts SMN in a supportive role, and many of our support pacts are very out dated. Our phalanx from noctoshield for example cannot begin to hold a candle to any job with enhancing skill and sub rdm, on top of that I believe phalanx can be boosted with gear from alluvion skirmish and other areas and noctoshield cannot. Same story for stone skin on gear. I liked when SMN buffs were party wide, strong versions of spells that can't be cast very often. Blink that lasts 15 min, absorbs up to 6 times. That's still very useful. The same can't be said for stoneskin or noctoshield or many others. And indeed things like Diamond Storm just don't seem potent enough compared to other support options.

As for astral flow pacts... I know comparing one aspect of a job to another isn't really a good way to argue balance ever because you need to take the entirejob into account, however a BLU with the latest hybrid elemental spells can do more damage than those can in about 2 seconds and then cast another one. It doesn't require 1 hours. BST can use the grasshopper and do a ton of AoE dmg every 10 seconds. Thunderspark isn't a 1 hour and seems to do comparable damage to our AF pacts, but without the 1 hour requirement. Level ? Holy is unreliable but can average higher damage than either of those in the right conditions. So it just seems they are very underwhelming for all their requirements and while they were excellent for Astral Burn parties, those were usually low level (level 35 or even 15) and with how easy it is to get experience now they aren't even relevant.

SMN is in a better place than before I totally agree. But you wouldn't believe how hard it is to get a group of people to support summoner as a damage source. You need extremely specific setups to make it work, and if there's a blm in the party since most magic burst setups use a SCH as well, the buffs will not be most pointed toward smn. The COR if there will roll for the BLM and SCH rather than just the SMN. Finding good RUN who want to tank is also hard.

Both LS I am in knows how great a well supported SMN setup can do, but they balk at only one main damage source. RUN, COR, GEO, WHM, SCH, SMN... if you remove any of that your performance can be really terrible (and for Flaming Crush replace SCH with a 2nd GEO) vs high level content. Most would rather just go PLD (which there's way more of), GEO, BLM, BLM, SCH, and either COR or another GEO for that same kind of setup.. SMN setup can be a relevant endgame strategy. But it takes such specific jobs compared to all the other strategies out there, and the opinion by the population at large of how well a SMN can do and benefit a group is still so low (and perhaps somewhat justified when SMN setup requirements aren't met), that getting by as a SMN requires some pretty special friends most the time. It is totally fine for SMN to relegate to a supoport and far less damage role (even just COR supporting SMN can make a 17k Heavenly strike go to 23k, multiply that difference by 3 if you are magic bursting but this is vs very weak mobs, against harder you need GEO) when those damage setup requirements can't be made, but a lot of our would be support options simply have not scaled into lategame at all, unlike similar spells for their job equivalents have.

Mostly, because avatar stats are lacking, and there's no way to boost them with buffs and gear to the degree that player characters can for themselves... GEO debuffs, and COR buffs/debuffs, and RUN debuffs are the only option open to summoners on hard content, and without GEO as a job around as potent as it is... most of those strategies are extremely cut off and I worry about SMN balance being so tied to another job and access to them for endgame scenarios, though I realize GEO itself is in *every* end game strategy setup which is worrisome in itself... but no less ubiquitous than bard used to be I suppose (Which with so much mana options, and Threnody II potency not as strong as other options BRD has really fallen out of favor with a lot of setups).

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Originally Posted by Genoxd

I'm not the one that created a thread on how to fix SMN without understanding many aspects of the job :)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genoxd

Not saying I disagree with you on many things, but you seem to not understand some things.

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I'll Just leave that here

If you feel that my thoughts and notions are completely wrong, then do better. Let's see your ideas. Everything I posted, also had a reason and a suggestion to go with. Also I never said I miss with Pavor Nocturnus' Dispel, I said that If the target has nothing to dispel, then is simply does nothing. Pavor has a low success rate of inflicting Death, even with Nightmare, but I also post this before the change to Apogee. You want to know when I would Perfect Defense, I would use it whenever I felt the need. You may play SMN as a DD solely, but I play more on the err of caution. You can play the job in multiple ways and NONE of them are wrong.

So tell me, how would you fix SMN so that is gets invited on a regular bases? Start being helpful instead of detrimental. If you have the means to help and the knowledge to do so, then do it.

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Originally Posted by Zeargi

So tell me, how would you fix SMN so that is gets invited on a regular bases? Start being helpful instead of detrimental. If you have the means to help and the knowledge to do so, then do it.

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Just so you know, I actually read your whole post before I responded. Did you read mine? Are you ignoring where I agreed with you because you're angry at me?

Here in case you didn't read my post all the way through here's a section where I tell you one thing that I think needs to happen for SMN

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Originally Posted by Genoxd

it's in the best state it has ever been in. The utility and damage we bring to a party has actually finally been noticed. It's not just a 1 trick pony like when everyone wanted us for PD zergs or Nether Blast. All SMN really needs to solidify its position in content is BP recast III either through Gifts or gear.

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As for perfect defense, I'm asking for where you felt the need to use it? I still can't think of any content since SoA came out where I'd need to use perfect defense. Ever since job points, I can't even think of any content where I'd even want to use it for anything else.

Outside of ADL and other zergs I always considered perfect defense to be just as worthless as Odin. They are both barely used and I'd rather they were both fully redesigned as something other than 1hr abilities. Personally I think it did more harm than good back then. To most people it turned the question of should we let the SMN come into do we need perfect defense? No? OK, don't invite the summoner.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genoxd

Just so you know, I actually read your whole post before I responded. Did you read mine? Are you ignoring where I agreed with you because you're angry at me?

Here in case you didn't read my post all the way through here's a section where I tell you one thing that I think needs to happen for SMN



As for perfect defense, I'm asking for where you felt the need to use it? I still can't think of any content since SoA came out where I'd need to use perfect defense. Ever since job points, I can't even think of any content where I'd even want to use it for anything else.

Outside of ADL and other zergs I always considered perfect defense to be just as worthless as Odin. They are both barely used and I'd rather they were both fully redesigned as something other than 1hr abilities. Personally I think it did more harm than good back then. To most people it turned the question of should we let the SMN come into do we need perfect defense? No? OK, don't invite the summoner.

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You are correct, I was angry at you, and did miss that part. PD: I used it a few times in Delve, when it was still newish, and I've used it some of the Story elements where I was alone. Like the Gargoyles. >_> Which caught me off guard... A whole lot. But I've also use Altana's Favor a few times when things went south too. I've worked hard to make my SMN better, and I know I've got a long way. And I feel that are argument is more from difference in play styles and misunderstandings of expectations. SMN has amazing potential, which has been my hope for the job since the times of my gimp /WHM healer days in Valkurm Dunes. By no means, are the ideas I've proposed the end all, be all, I even said so in the very beginning. That is the reason there is a forum, to open up for discussions of ideas and improve upon the collective pool as a whole.

Just to clear up some things, I do have JP in Astral Flow, but only 4. I've focused most of mine in ACC, MACC, ATT, and Favors.

There's no question that you've got me beat gear wise, but this is the gear if have thus far:
Gridarvor
Keraunos
Vox Grip
Seraphicaller
Con. Horn +1
Glyphic Horn +1
Beckon's Horn
Caller's Pendent
Moonshade Earring
Caller's Earring
Glyphic Doublet+1
Con. Doublet
Beckoner's Doublet
Glyphic Bracers +1
Apogee Mitts
Beckoner's Bracers
Evoker's Ring
Fervor Ring
Thurandaut Ring
Conveyance Cape
Mujin Obi
Glyphic Spats
Con. Spats +1
Beckoner's Spats
Enticer's Pants
Glyphic Pigaches +1
Con. Pigaches +1
Beck. Pigaches

Nothing too impressive by any means, but SMN hasn't been my sole focus when it comes to things. I've been bouncing between PLD, BST, BLU, and GEO. With the odd hits here and there of all the other jobs depending on what people needed. I don't know what it's like on your server, but Sylph has been really quiet for the most part, and it was only a few days ago, that I managed to join a more active LS, so maybe I might get other things done that I've been missing. I'm working on the Laughing quest in Adoulin for a better earring. My lucky with the Helios gear I do have has been awful, so I might put that on a lower rung until I can afford more stones >_>; But all in all I have put work into SMN, and I do play it, I just have to take some detours to get it done.

I just thought I'd mention one thing, I use PD and Astral Flow bonuses both most the time. It's entirely possible to use astral flow + conduit combo, keep your stat boost for pacts and then during the final seconds of astral flow use vile elixir, convert, sublimation, or elemental siphon, or get devotion or some combo of those things and summon Alexander. If the fights not over I almost always do that or use odin. No reason not to :D

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

While we can’t promise that we’ll improve summoner blood pacts, we’ll consider looking into this in the future.

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Its been over 4 months and not a word about this, any updates about the possibility since we're due for a update in April?