Nukes!!!

since the game is almost done can you just give us our new Banish spells already :D

just do it SE dont argue lol.

I agree. Also, native Dual-Wield.

Hmm, native dual-wield on WHM would be crazy fun! :D

Actually wish they would stop evading this and just give WHM's the last few tiers of Banish and Banishga. Its actually something that makes little sense as WHM while its the primary healer of course really lacks in decent offensive capabilities for solo or lower difficulty stuff.

BLM obviously has its nukes and staff skills, RDM has enfeebs and even Tier V nukes, SCH can switch stances as needed but WHM gets left with mid level nukes I mean come on SE the last Banish Spell WHM gets is Banish 3 at lvl65, we dont get Banishga III even tho every single WHM NPC and Mob has it and We dont even get Banish IV which some WHM NPCs and Mobs seem to have above lvl80 or so. BLM used to have One tier Higher in both single tier and aga form and now they got even tier 6 Nukes and WHM is stuck at 2005 offensive spell levels.

It isnt too much to ask to simply just add in Banish IV or even Banish V and give us Banishga III and IV so that we could at least throw in the occasional MB now and again if were not being taxed its really silly at this stage to leave WHM with such subpar offensive capabilites when every other caster job as gotten improvements since the level cap raise.

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Originally Posted by Raiyara

Actually wish they would stop evading this and just give WHM's the last few tiers of Banish and Banishga. Its actually something that makes little sense as WHM while its the primary healer of course really lacks in decent offensive capabilities for solo or lower difficulty stuff.

BLM obviously has its nukes and staff skills, RDM has enfeebs and even Tier V nukes, SCH can switch stances as needed but WHM gets left with mid level nukes

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Er... Hexastrike and other club skills are awesome. WHM is way better at melee than blm etc.

Anyway I agree we should get rest of the banish line, but not because we're bad soloers... new banish spells won't change that.

WHM DD....gtfo.....

Banishga3/Banish4....Native dual wield...

My inner Winja approves! lol

Dual wield on whm would be very unlikely IMO for Whm though we have dnc and nin sub for that.

Still hoping one day for remaining spells like Banish 4/5/6 and banishga 3/4/5 along with other ommitances. Theres many spells for different jobs that we "should" have gotten ever since the 75 cap raise but never did for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Raiyara

Dual wield on whm would be very unlikely IMO for Whm though we have dnc and nin sub for that.

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That's true, but that doesn't mean we can't ask for it anyway.

Still wanting all those banish spells.... :D

If you want to nuke, level a nuking job. If you want to DD, level a DD job. WHM is a HEALING job, in case you missed the memo.

http://popcrush.com/files/2015/05/ma...y-side-eye.gif

That still doesn't explain why we don't have the Higher Tier Banish spells unless you missed the memo

Well, you don't have it because you don't need it. Does it remove status ailments r cure your party? No. So the parties healer doesn't need it. Implementing it would be a waste of limited developer time. Explanation enough?

Didn't they say that they arent able to add any new spells somewhere on the forum?

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Originally Posted by Sirmarki

Didn't they say that they arent able to add any new spells somewhere on the forum?

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They can'y add new spells as in no New(Not spells that in game that are monster only) spells with new animation. The spells we are asking for are all in the game just only Monster only.

I'm not a programmer but I'm not sure it works that way. Otherwise, why would they say no new BLU spells? There are hundreds of mob abilities in the game already that could be made into BLU spells.

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Originally Posted by Zeldar

I'm not a programmer but I'm not sure it works that way. Otherwise, why would they say no new BLU spells? There are hundreds of mob abilities in the game already that could be made into BLU spells.

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Indeed, though unless I'm mistaken, these were available on the test server before being removed so the animation and such is already available.

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Originally Posted by Raiyara

BLM obviously has its nukes and staff skills, RDM has enfeebs and even Tier V nukes, SCH can switch stances as needed but WHM gets left with mid level nukes I mean come on SE the last Banish Spell WHM gets is Banish 3 at lvl65, we dont get Banishga III even tho every single WHM NPC and Mob has it and We dont even get Banish IV which some WHM NPCs and Mobs seem to have above lvl80 or so. BLM used to have One tier Higher in both single tier and aga form and now they got even tier 6 Nukes and WHM is stuck at 2005 offensive spell levels.

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By the same logic you could argue for cures for BLM or higher tiers for SCH and RDM. I mean Cure IV is level 48 for RDM, BLM only has Drain for HP recovery and so on.

Arguing that WHM should have damage dealing traits like higher nuking power and native dual wield (I really hope this one was sarcasm), is like arguing that BLM should have native cures, WAR should have native enfeebles, or BRD should have access to sneak attack simply because it can wield a dagger. Dealing damage is not in the job description.

Actually, WAR does have a really good native enfeeble - Full Break. BLM has a native cure in Drain. BRD doesn't have sneak attack but it does have Virelai to charm, which has nothing to do with support, and the Fencer job trait. MNK is a physical DD but it can deal magical damage with Formless Strikes and heal itself with Chakra. Dragoon is also a physical DD but it has some great healing options with Healing Breath and status-removal breaths. RUN is a tank but can magic burst with Lunge and significantly weaken a monster's magic defence. Furthermore, all spellcasting jobs have unique weaponskills, some of which are really quite good (Mystic Boon, Vidohunir).

All of these examples demonstrate that every single job has tools that lie outside its player-accepted purpose. Generally they're not as good or convenient as tools used by the specialists - BLM's drain isn't going to get you far, Virelai is mostly just a fun thing to play with when soloing, Formless Strikes has limited uptime - but they exist, they're useful, and they're fun. WHM is never going to be a nuker to rival BLM or be a top tier melee job, and I agree that it shouldn't be for all the reasons you've given, but Banish IV and native dual wield would not change that - just as we don't usually have dragoon main healers or armies of BRDs taking down NMs with charmed monsters.

...Actually that would be really excellent. We need Virelai II immediately. ;)

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Originally Posted by Zeldar

Well, you don't have it because you don't need it. Does it remove status ailments r cure your party? No. So the parties healer doesn't need it. Implementing it would be a waste of limited developer time. Explanation enough?

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WHM doesn't NEED it but that doesn't make it invalid or not a part of their job. They DO have it. Banish and Holy spells are a part of a WHM's repertoire. Why else do they get so much Banish vs undead potency gear and have Banish and Holy exclusively besides PLD (who can't use them nearly as well as WHM)? You're not making sense. That's like saying BLM shouldn't get Firaga IV because they don't have it. They don't NEED it, but it would make sense to add them. Plenty of jobs have spells and abilities that don't help their main role.

In regards to the BLU spells comment:

"For blue mages, we have already reached the limit for the amount of spells we can add. Unfortunately, we cannot increase any further."

It doesn't sound like they don't want to add more BLU spells, they just can't because they reached the max capacity. BLUs have the most spells in the game so it makes sense that they'd hit the limit sooner or later.

OK, so you have made valid arguments for higher tier banishes, and I can get behind that. Native dual wield though? You can't possible be serious. This was only given to actual melee jobs with high dagger or sword as their main weapon to give them more subjob options than nin. For whm, its simply for screwing around. So if you want to just screw around, hey its a game have at it.....but sub nin or dnc.

As for calling an added effect of a ws an actual enfeeble.... lame example. As for calling drain a cure, which you cant use on party members, lame example. Formless strikes I'm not going to argue really.....its pretty high non-physical damage and like you said, its limited.

Why are they lame examples? I think they perfectly illustrate the point - that jobs can have abilities outside of their traditional role, but they tend to be different or more limited. Full Break is actually good when it lands, but it's far less convenient than "proper" enfeebles. Drain is great when you need it, but far more limited than "proper" cures. High tier Banish would be fun to magic burst with, but no match for "proper" nukes. Dual wielding clubs can be an enjoyable way to play WHM, but with the same effort put in it's unlikely to match "proper" melee damage.

So you would say that by having the abilty to maybe land 1 enfeeble, that job has "enfeebling capabilities"? Well, in that case my thf is a freaking BEAST, because i can aspir with a ws, and do magic damage with others! That means I'm like a blm now too, right? Oh, and my WAR has healing capabilities if I strap on a sword and use sanguine blade! Having 1 enfeeble is far more than simply "limited" . Its an afterthought.

I wish every job had dual wield 0 starting at level 1, no attack speed bonus, heck, could make it an attack speed penalty of 10% or whatever, mostly I just want it to have more offhand stat options on mages, because mage shields are pretty crappy in comparison to having an offhand weapon, statwise.

Dual wield wouldnt really fit a WHM main since its trait mainly for ninja and thf/dnc really.

Banish tho is something that WHM should have up to max tier as its the only real offensive spell whm has. As said before the last spell in that line WHM gets is at lvl65 yet mobs and npcs not only have the -aga 3 version but high tier use banish 4. Why WHM never got these like blm got tier 5 nukes is a mystery so far.

Its no harm for Whm to have max level spells anyhow and its one of those missing leftovers from the level cap raise.

Also Blm should have tier iv aga elemental spells as well. :)

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Originally Posted by Raiyara

Dual wield wouldnt really fit a WHM main since its trait mainly for ninja and thf/dnc really.

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At this moment in time, sure, but historically this was not the case, the most common dual wielder in the first years of the game was War, and soloist-Rdm (both subbing Nin), Nin did but it wasn't used as frequently, though after some time, Nin did become more widely used and was the Pre-eminent dual wielder.

Thf only got dual wield natively somewhat recently, though they often subbed Nin for it, often they didn't. You also forgot to mention Blu, they were in a similar boat to Thf for a long time, frequently subbing Nin, but not always. Also Whm/Nin was not too uncommon, old bones parties and Whms soloing things pretty frequently comes to mind, but they didn't do it as often as Rdm did.

Traits are only "mainly for ____" until they're not.

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Originally Posted by Raiyara

Banish tho is something that WHM should have up to max tier as its the only real offensive spell whm has. As said before the last spell in that line WHM gets is at lvl65 yet mobs and npcs not only have the -aga 3 version but high tier use banish 4. Why WHM never got these like blm got tier 5 nukes is a mystery so far.

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While I don't necessarily think Whm would get less out of higher tier banishes than offhand clubs for more Macc, I see no reason not to give them both, it wouldn't break anything, and it would be fun, to use your words, neither of these things would harm anything, or even rebalance anything. (Again, you could put an attack speed penalty in for DW0, high as you like, to discourage people from meleeing with it without /Nin, if you like.)

Its no harm for Whm to have max level spells anyhow and its one of those missing leftovers from the level cap raise.

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Originally Posted by Raiyara

Also Blm should have tier iv aga elemental spells as well. :)

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While at heart I really have no problem with this, considering Blm's position in the game at the moment, maybe wait for another time? But, honestly, it would probably be fine.

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Originally Posted by Zeldar

So you would say that by having the abilty to maybe land 1 enfeeble, that job has "enfeebling capabilities"? Well, in that case my thf is a freaking BEAST, because i can aspir with a ws, and do magic damage with others! That means I'm like a blm now too, right? Oh, and my WAR has healing capabilities if I strap on a sword and use sanguine blade! Having 1 enfeeble is far more than simply "limited" . Its an afterthought.

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That's exactly the point though! This is the counterargument to your assertion that WHM is a healing job, no more, and thus should not have access to non-healing traits. No job in FFXI is so narrowly defined as that - all jobs have tools that extend beyond their primary role. Your THF is not a "beast" magic DD with Aeolian Edge, but it has the capability and sometimes it's actually quite handy. You're not a BLM, but you don't have to be in order to deal magic damage in moderation. WHM with additional non-healing traits would be exactly the same. They're not meant to be beasts! It's meant to be fun, useful in niche situations, and something job enthusiasts can work on to get the most out of their favourite jobs. These off-role capabilities aren't something we can exclude just because WHM is a healer, or THF is a melee DD.

However, if we were operating under the paradigm that jobs should only have capabilities precisely within their defined role, THF shouldn't have Aeolian Edge at all!

WHM IS a healing job: no more. If you want to have dual wield to have "fun", then sub a job that allows for this. And most jobs ARE so narrowly defined. BLM and DDs cant heal parties without the appropriate sub. Why? because they are not healing jobs. Some jobs are meant to be hybrids: RDM obviously, NIN was meant as an enfeebling DD, DNC is meant to be a support job. WHM was meant to heal. At least your argument for higher tier banishes has some sensible foundation. The arguements made on this forum to give WHM native DW are just ludacris. As for my post about thf, it was absolute sarcasm to show how idiotic it is to expect a whm to have nuking power or DW natively. I really can't believe people are lobbying for this. It just blows my mind.

You're continuing to ignore the fact that I've repeatedly given examples (including your own example!) of jobs that have capabilities outside of their given role that aren't competitive with specialists, but still useful in low-intensity or niche situations - clear parallels to the suggestions being made in this thread for WHM.

I guess we're not going to agree! But that's fine.

My own example? What, a magical WS? All jobs have that. You have made a strong case for banishes, which I have already said. Anyone has yet to say how it would make any sense at all for a WHM to get native dual-wield! Dual-wield was given to the 3 additional jobs that ONLY equip 1-handed weapons and ONLY had the /nin and /dnc options. Outside of things like VW where a blu can sub pld and shield bash, and outside of leveling pre level 24, when has it EVER been better to wear 1 dagger or sword on BLU, THF, or DNC???? NEVER. It ade sense that these jobs got dual wield. There is no real situation where it makes sense for WHM to naturally be able to equip 2 weapons. WHM weapons are not for attacking. Dual-wield i a DD trait.

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Originally Posted by Zeldar

outside of leveling pre level 24, when has it EVER been better to wear 1 dagger or sword on BLU, THF, or DNC???? NEVER.

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I take umbridge with the word "EVER" in this sentence, Blu/Thf, Blu/Rdm, Blu/War and even Blu/Whm and later Sch curing with a staff were all reasonably frequent party setups. (The last one was a bit more rare.) If you don't believe me, go look at all the old forum posts from the years after Blu came out, I'd almost wager Blu/Thf was more common than Blu/Nin, at least in the Lv30~72 range, and again on Dark Ixion and Odin for Frightful Roar and Sneak Attack Cannonball. I main healed many a party when we couldn't find a healer, and occasionally I would /War and tank with Provoke and Cocoon.

Thf also would sub War somewhat frequently, because Berserk was better DPS if you didn't need Utsusemi shadows, though it was definitely less than 50% of the time, admittedly.

Dnc and Nin are the only jobs that I can think of that exclusively Dual Wielded, well, outside of the times Nin was using Earth Staff to tank or kite-tank, which did happen sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Zeldar

There is no real situation where it makes sense for WHM to naturally be able to equip 2 weapons. WHM weapons are not for attacking. Dual-wield i a DD trait.

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Any situation where dual clubs comes out to more cure potency II, or macc than your current staff options it makes sense for a Whm to naturally be able to equip 2 weapons, as I said, put a giant slow penalty on Dual Wield 0 and you don't have to worry about it ever being a DD trait lol as it would decrease your melee DPS.

While I agree Dual Wield was intended to be a DD trait, so what, Ninja was intended to be a DPS job as they're so fond of saying, but for a good 7 years or so they were our best tank job, and that was really neat, things can change if it makes things more interesting or fun at the end of the day.

Also, there's a bit of hilarity here, if you care about developer intentions, Whm WAS meant to melee with the party, don't believe me? Go watch any of the old dev-released videos of their party play. Not that I really think this matters, but it's funny, Hexa Strike is Whm only, all Whm bones parties were a thing, and to a surprisingly large extent, they did intend Whm to melee, heck Whm relic is built around meleeing, though the Mythic is certainly useful without it.

OK, so now WHM is a melee job. I want to start seeing you guys up close and personal with level 135 + content, now that they are making melee'ing them again possible. Come on...put your money where your mouth is. Post some videos as proof. I dare you . Otherwise, you are flapping your gums and wasting my time. I'll check back on this, one of the dumbest threads ever created, in a week.

Its like arguing with a brick wall. Every point they made has been clocked already. Yet they keep attempting to make themselves seem right.

https://m.popkey.co/db2188/Zm6Nl_s-200x150.gif

I like arguing with morons who would rather see precious dev time wasted on stupid things than actual content.

And every point i've made has basically been met with some form of "it makes sense bc we want it...."

Wow, who knew a single comment I made in jest a year ago would start a flame war? If anyone cares, yes, I'd like dual-wield on WHM but no, I don't think it would ever happen, and no, I don't think it would make sense. I would like the option to sub something besides NIN or DNC for meleeing, but I know it'll never happen.

Zeldar, you've made your points and you're right. Anyone with a bit of logic can see you're right, so why do you continue to beat the dead horse?

Aaaaand in a LS of 24 on atm, 5 of which are whm main, responses to me saying "so apparently whm should have native DW" the responses were as follows:

"Are you drunk?"
"you've been on the forums again i see....."
"is it (a certain horrible whm on our server) requesting it?"
"those people are retarded"
"i think the jobs that it makes sense to have it already have it"
"............"
"this conversation isn't even worth our time"

So yeah, it isn't just me.

Point well taken Catmato. Maybe it just took someone else with common sense agreeing with me openly to get me off of this thread.

I don't know how I can make my viewpoint any clearer, I like the thought of dual wielding for the benefit to Cure/Enfeebling, and sure, Nuke sets. I have never melee Whm'd, I have no intention of doing so, I have jobs that I'd rather melee on if I'm meleeing.

As to Dev time required to implement such a thing, it would be rather minimal. However, I barely care, this is not one of my flagship causes by any stretch, I simply have to point out the incorrectness and the inconsistencies in almost all of your arguments, because they are painfully glaring.

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Originally Posted by Selindrile

I don't know how I can make my viewpoint any clearer, I like the thought of dual wielding for the benefit to Cure/Enfeebling, and sure, Nuke sets. I have never melee Whm'd, I have no intention of doing so, I have jobs that I'd rather melee on if I'm meleeing.

As to Dev time required to implement such a thing, it would be rather minimal. However, I barely care, this is not one of my flagship causes by any stretch, I simply have to point out the incorrectness and the inconsistencies in almost all of your arguments, because they are painfully glaring.

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Thank you for proving my point. You have never melee'd whm. You have no intention of doing so. You barely care. Why? Because it makes absolutely no sense at all.