Haste + Accession

I'm posting this in the general discussion because I feel it doesn't just involve SCH (Mostly SCH and WHM, and RDM a little, but technically everyone since they'll benefit from it), but also because other players don't regularly visit the SCH forums and I'd like as many people to comment on this as possible.

I want to suggest to the devs to re-examine allowing Haste to work with the Scholar Stratagem "Accession". Even when the level cap was bumped up to 80, I never agreed with them leaving out this spell since I couldn't think of any real reason for it. The only thing I could think of at the time was SMN and Garuda having "Hastega" and by allowing Haste + Accession to work it'd take away some advantage SMN had, and this is pretty ridiculous since nobody brings SMN for Hasting a group. Other reason could've been they saw how excited people were getting about being able to AoE Haste at Lv80 and just pre-nerfed it... Just in case we knew something they didn't. I dunno.

But now in modern FF11, we have stuff like Haste II, and SMN has Hastega II. Even if the devs were using SMN and Hastega as an excuse before, it certainly doesn't exist now. Allowing SCHs and WHM/schs to AoE Haste would just be a welcome convenience, nothing game breaking. It'd especially be nice since so many mobs have AoE dispel moves that remove darn near everything... It'd make reapplying stuff a little less stressful too. Battles are faster paced than they used to be too, and squeezing in Haste on everyone while main healing can be extremely annoying.

For those who may not know, this wouldn't effect RDM's Haste II spell since the usual rule for Accession (Minus Haste) is that if SCH main cannot access the spell (Through it's own spell line or support job), then it doesn't work with Accession. So Haste II and Flurry II would not work, while their lower level counterparts would.

Again, I have to ask the devs... Can we really not have Accessionable Hastes? And if the answer is still no, may we at the very least get an explanation as to why? It's a mystery that's been bothering me since Lv80 cap was introduced, and with the game winding down I'd really like to hear something about it before the end.

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Originally Posted by Muras

I'm posting this in the general discussion because I feel it doesn't just involve SCH (Mostly SCH and WHM, and RDM a little, but technically everyone since they'll benefit from it), but also because other players don't regularly visit the SCH forums and I'd like as many people to comment on this as possible.

I want to suggest to the devs to re-examine allowing Haste to work with the Scholar Stratagem "Accession". Even when the level cap was bumped up to 80, I never agreed with them leaving out this spell since I couldn't think of any real reason for it. The only thing I could think of at the time was SMN and Garuda having "Hastega" and by allowing Haste + Accession to work it'd take away some advantage SMN had, and this is pretty ridiculous since nobody brings SMN for Hasting a group. Other reason could've been they saw how excited people were getting about being able to AoE Haste at Lv80 and just pre-nerfed it... Just in case we knew something they didn't. I dunno.

But now in modern FF11, we have stuff like Haste II, and SMN has Hastega II. Even if the devs were using SMN and Hastega as an excuse before, it certainly doesn't exist now. Allowing SCHs and WHM/schs to AoE Haste would just be a welcome convenience, nothing game breaking. It'd especially be nice since so many mobs have AoE dispel moves that remove darn near everything... It'd make reapplying stuff a little less stressful too. Battles are faster paced than they used to be too, and squeezing in Haste on everyone while main healing can be extremely annoying.

For those who may not know, this wouldn't effect RDM's Haste II spell since the usual rule for Accession (Minus Haste) is that if SCH main cannot access the spell (Through it's own spell line or support job), then it doesn't work with Accession. So Haste II and Flurry II would not work, while their lower level counterparts would.

Again, I have to ask the devs... Can we really not have Accessionable Hastes? And if the answer is still no, may we at the very least get an explanation as to why? It's a mystery that's been bothering me since Lv80 cap was introduced, and with the game winding down I'd really like to hear something about it before the end.

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people dont bring smn to events cause they dont see the benefits.

More because most summoners have no clue how to actually play the job.

We’re currently looking into making Accession work with Haste, so please wait a bit longer.

However, we have no plans to add additional AoE haste spells for players as it would reduce the effectiveness of Garuda's utility.

Thank you Grekumah, sounds great. And yeah, I expected other haste spells to not work (Such as Haste II). I'm glad the devs see that it makes sense to allow regular Haste to be used with Accession now that Haste II and Hastega II exist.

Pass on my thanks to the devs as well if you get the time :D

I bring SMNs to content, and they're often confused and scared because they've never even asked to come as SMN, let alone been invited or encouraged to come as SMN.

SMN has an awful lot going for it, and can buff and deal massive damage. It just requires more gear and considerably more thought than most other jobs to get the same utility out of it.

In vagary smn can be very useful in a mage party. Adding 39 MAB through shiva's favor and a potential 13 more with dream shroud, while also providing backup healing and hastega II for recast, and if a COR is in the party making evoker's roll more powerful and if low mana switching to diabolos favor can actually help out a lot, on top of heavenly strike spam (and apogee 2x magic bursts for some good damage). If you have 4 BLM or sch then shiva's favor is adding 156 MAB to the fight pretty useful ~ While that is comparable to Wizards Roll with a BLM in the party, SMN magic burst is really good damage and I have out parsed BLM on garbage gel just doing heavenly strike (5/5 merited) spam, granted most the BLM didn't play BLM much and focused on their other jobs much more. The advantage smn can have over jobs like COR is that if you give them enough time to stack their buffs, the only limit is their summoning magic skill and long periods of time. A SMN can stack to a 4th line of buffs very easily alone given time to rotate through all their wards, but in so doing loses full timing favor. That isn't to say smn and cor fill all he same roles in a party but there is definite overlap in areas.

On the topic on hand, it is a bit weird to allow it as sch main job doesn't get haste and extending the idea to subjobs is weird to me. On the other hand, I play whm a lot and I sympathize with your plight, I mainly only keep priority targets hasted. I don't know on which fights it will be most worth it, as on many I need to save my stratagems for accession erase, regen IV, even stoneskin, and since i'm not a mythic whm and esuna requires being close enough to battle to use it as well as a sacrifice or having the same status on you.. accession -nas as well. I always wish I had more strategems mainly for accession (sometimes for celerity arise tho when stuff goes wrong). In short I think it'll mostly be of help in fights where you're kept less busy with -na's and erases or if you happen to have a mythic or in prebuff situations.

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Originally Posted by AtrixWolfe

In vagary smn can be very useful in a mage party. Adding 39 MAB through shiva's favor and a potential 13 more with dream shroud, while also providing backup healing and hastega II for recast, and if a COR is in the party making evoker's roll more powerful and if low mana switching to diabolos favor can actually help out a lot, on top of heavenly strike spam (and apogee 2x magic bursts for some good damage). If you have 4 BLM or sch then shiva's favor is adding 156 MAB to the fight pretty useful ~ While that is comparable to Wizards Roll with a BLM in the party, SMN magic burst is really good damage and I have out parsed BLM on garbage gel just doing heavenly strike (5/5 merited) spam, granted most the BLM didn't play BLM much and focused on their other jobs much more. The advantage smn can have over jobs like COR is that if you give them enough time to stack their buffs, the only limit is their summoning magic skill and long periods of time. A SMN can stack to a 4th line of buffs very easily alone given time to rotate through all their wards, but in so doing loses full timing favor. That isn't to say smn and cor fill all he same roles in a party but there is definite overlap in areas.

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Yeah. All I meant in the opening post was that when people bring SMN, they aren't bringing them just for Hastega, but for all the other things SMN can do too. If Hastega really was the only thing that made SMN worthwhile, then people wouldn't bother bringing it since, while it's a nice convenience, it probably wouldn't make up for the extra slot taken. But that obviously isn't the case, hence why giving other jobs at least Hastega 1 shouldn't be a problem at this point.

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On the topic on hand, it is a bit weird to allow it as sch main job doesn't get haste and extending the idea to subjobs is weird to me. On the other hand, I play whm a lot and I sympathize with your plight, I mainly only keep priority targets hasted. I don't know on which fights it will be most worth it, as on many I need to save my stratagems for accession erase, regen IV, even stoneskin, and since i'm not a mythic whm and esuna requires being close enough to battle to use it as well as a sacrifice or having the same status on you.. accession -nas as well. I always wish I had more strategems mainly for accession (sometimes for celerity arise tho when stuff goes wrong). In short I think it'll mostly be of help in fights where you're kept less busy with -na's and erases or if you happen to have a mythic or in prebuff situations.

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There's plenty of spells SCH can AoE that they can't learn themselves but still gain from SJs though. Such as Refresh (Refresh II doesn't work, and Refresh 1 didn't work until 85 cap), Phalanx (Phalanx II also doesn't work), Bind, Blind, Gravity, Enspells, Distract, Frazzle and so on. DRK's Absorb spells make a great example; All of them can be AoE'd except Absorb-ACC and Absorb-Attri since those ones are higher than Lv49. The only way to AoE these spells is if SCH main can gain access to it in some form which then passes onto /sch. It's just the weird rule SE came up with. Haste really was always the odd one out. Although technically Reraise should also be AoE-able too according to the "rules" (Since it's healing Magic), but that one not being AoE-able actually DOES kinda make sense so I won't complain about it, heh.

But yes, this change does favor SCH more than jobs that would use /sch. SCH main gets 5 stratagems, on 48 second timers, or 33 seconds if you get the 550 gift, so as SCH main I'd be AoEing Hastega all the time. As a SCH main I wouldn't mind at all if they gave /sch at least one more tier of stratagems which would give jobs like WHM 3 charges on a 1 min 20 second timer. Perhaps just change it to this:

Tier 1: Lv10 to 24
Tier 2: Lv25 to 44
Tier 3: Lv45 to 64
Tier 4: Lv65 to 84
Tier 5: Lv85+

Not much changes (all new tiers are 5 levels earlier), but I think it'd go a long way for other jobs without stepping on SCH's toes at all. We SCHs got better stratagems timers/charges still, awesome Regens, helix, and the Lv50+ stratagems, and other unique things. I think we'd be fine.

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

We’re currently looking into making Accession work with Haste, so please wait a bit longer.

However, we have no plans to add additional AoE haste spells for players as it would reduce the effectiveness of Garuda's utility.

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Any chance you will also let accession work with other enhancing spells like temper?

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Originally Posted by Ulth

Any chance you will also let accession work with other enhancing spells like temper?

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No. Temper is above subjob level. RDM only.

So is it going to work with haste, but not haste II?

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Originally Posted by Ulth

So is it going to work with haste, but not haste II?

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I think it would be safe to assume it will work with both.

It was meant to be a rhetorical question. Singforu was saying that temper shouldn't work with accession because it is a red mage only spell. Since haste II is also a red mage only spell by that logic it also shouldn't. However I'm of the opinion that a job that is using scholar as a sub job should also be able to accession its enhancing spells.

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Originally Posted by Ulth

It was meant to be a rhetorical question. Singforu was saying that temper shouldn't work with accession because it is a red mage only spell. Since haste II is also a red mage only spell by that logic it also shouldn't. However I'm of the opinion that a job that is using scholar as a sub job should also be able to accession its enhancing spells.

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That's a fair point, I've been using SCH sub so much I'd completely forgotten Accession is a SCH ability.

Spells like Haste II and Temper won't work with Accession because SCH itself cannot gain access to it. Reraise/Raise and Haste have been the only exceptions to this rule. Before SE gave SCH Regens IV and V, WHM couldn't accession Regen IV either. It's just how Accession/Manifestion works :P

The only reason SE is unlocking Haste is because it doesn't actually change anything in the current game, other than letting a SCH or WHM or RDM give Haste1 to everyone in the PT a little quicker. Unlocking Haste II would break the current rules, and take away SMN's unique Hastega II. If SMN didn't have Hastega II, I doubt SE would be touching Haste + Accession.

With that said though, I personally wouldn't care if they made Haste II work with Accession. I don't think it'd hurt SMN much, and I think most SMNs would actually like it since it would allow them to use something else if a RDM was Hastega II-ing everyone instead.

But then you need to realize this path opens up a whole other can of worms; If we allow Haste II to work with Accession, why not Dread Spikes with Manifestion? Or Endark (All that wonderful ATK+)? Or Accession + Fullcure for a free Benediction whenever you want. It's because of stuff like this that the whole "SCH main has to access it somehow" rule exists, I think. It sucks, but it does make sense.

Except that Enspells can be used with Accession, so that blows the whole "only SCH main spells" rule out of the water.

Also Phalanx.

Also self-target Bar-spells.

Also Refresh.

The rule is SCH main needs to have access to the spell. This means that if SCH can gain access to the spell through a support job, then it has access to it, and thus can work with Accession/Manifestation.

Ah, okay. Then it does seem odd that Haste is left out seeing as how Refresh could only be obtained at a higher level then Haste (LV.40 WHM for Haste and LV.41 RDM for Refresh), so when they raised the level cap from 75 to 80 they must have made a deliberate decision to not allow Haste to be Accessionable.

Yeah, that's exactly what they did. I think it was even part of the update notes saying Haste was left out, heh. They never gave a reason why back then, but people generally assumed it was because of Hastega from SMN and they didn't want to take away that "unique" side of SMN. I only made this thread because now that Hastega II is a thing, there's no reason not to allow it anymore.