Classic server, what's the argument against it now?

Typically, whenever the subject of a classic server is brought up, there are two main points against it:

1. It takes away development time from the main servers.

2. Who would want to play on a server that would never get updated?

Once November hits, neither of these points will be valid anymore. So with that in mind, what would be the harm in releasing a single classic server for those that want one? After doing some research, there appears to be plenty of interest in the idea of classic servers for older MMOs:

1. Everquest

• Currently in the process of releasing a progression server in 2015.
  http://massivelyop.com/2015/02/23/ev...ression-server

Edit: Trailer for the progression server:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YOL...ature=youtu.be

• Daybreak have entered into an official agreement with Project 1999.
  https://www.everquest.com/news/project-1999-daybreak

2. Lineage 2

• Classic server to be officially announced on May 21st.
  https://eu.4game.com/lineage2classic/

Edit: May 21st, official announcement:
https://4gameforum.com/threads/linea...is-next.26645/

Dear friends!

We all made quite some work. After this month we have 16555 votes, and it is a little bit more than our initial goal. That is great! I bet you all want to know what happens next, and here it is: we've started working towards opening the server. As you can imagine, it involves a lot of preparation, discussion, testing and other complicated stuff which we cannot talk about in details. There is still a risk that the project won't be launched if the circumstances are not in our favour. We appreciate your efforts and your involvement in this project. You've shown your desire to see Lineage 2 Classic in Europe, and it means a lot for us. Stay tuned, updates on the project will be posted on the forum as soon as we have them.

3. Darkfall Online

• Aventurine have recently announced their intentions of bringing back the original Darkfall Online, alongside their current Unholy Wars release.
  https://forums.darkfallonline.com/sh...=1#post6502284

As for determining what state the classic server would be set in, since the notion of "classic" differs from person to person, a community vote could be held. Similar to the Everquest progression server, whatever state gets the most votes would determine the ruleset of that server.

And what would you do if people voted for classic as abyssea era?

1) all 3 of those games still have expansions/are still supported
2) there arent enough people who would do it
3) whats the appeal of going back to 75 era where whole link shells spend years getting 1 person a relic/mythic?

Progression servers generally mean that they start the game over without expansions, and then roll through the content releases a bit faster than the original release schedule, so you go through 10 years of updates in 1-2 years. It lets people see how the game changed over time , and keeps old content relevant for a while for everyone again. If they wanted to do a static server that won't progress past a certain point, you have the question of where to draw the line, and what QoL changes to backport to compensate if the server population is too low. Would you really want to go without Level Sync, or Records of Eminence objectives at least giving guidance on where to find things? What about Trial of the Magians actually giving visible and meaningful progression towards useful equipment? This is a very complicated issue, when the focus of the staff now is reducing expenses.

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Originally Posted by Roja323

And what would you do if people voted for classic as abyssea era?

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Easy, because Abyssea wouldn't be an option. It was a product made by Matsui and the new development team when they raised the level cap. "Classic" would encompass everything from Tanaka-era.

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Originally Posted by Roja323

1) all 3 of those games still have expansions/are still supported

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And so is FFXI, for the time being.

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Originally Posted by Roja323

2) there arent enough people who would do it

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Beg to differ, but then again, neither of us can really give concrete numbers on the amount of people interested in a classic server. The only way to know for sure would be to hold a community poll.

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Originally Posted by Roja323

3) whats the appeal of going back to 75 era where whole link shells spend years getting 1 person a relic/mythic?

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Doesn't matter if you personally don't see the appeal, but many people still do. If you prefer the way the game currently plays, then play on the main servers, and let the people that prefer the classic gameplay play on the classic servers.

Also, holding a community poll would be a hassle, if on these forums. You have to have an active FFXI Content ID to post here, or have had one in the past and not have your cookie expire. If they open it to the public, Reddit could troll it. If they keep it to forum users only, then only current players could do it, and having to pay to vote is a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by bungiefanNA

If they wanted to do a static server that won't progress past a certain point, you have the question of where to draw the line, and what QoL changes to backport to compensate if the server population is too low.

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Importing QoL changes wouldn't exactly make it classic anymore, but there's been a steady interest in the old-school MMO niche for awhile now. Project 1999 consistently has 1500+ active players at any given time, which was the average amount back during this game's golden era. 15,000 people have already signed the petition for a Lineage 2 classic server. Seems reasonable to assume that there's enough interest to support a single classic server for a game that has a much larger population than either of those games.

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Originally Posted by bungiefanNA

Would you really want to go without Level Sync, or Records of Eminence objectives at least giving guidance on where to find things?

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by bungiefanNA

This is a very complicated issue, when the focus of the staff now is reducing expenses.

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What about player retention and revenue; the potential a classic server could have on bringing people into the game, both new and old? A Darkfall developer had this to say when questioned about the decision to bring back Darkfall 1.0:

http://i.imgur.com/BFBSxzT.png

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Originally Posted by bungiefanNA

If they keep it to forum users only, then only current players could do it, and having to pay to vote is a bad thing.

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Bad thing for whom? I can't imagine many pro-classic server players would mind paying to have their voice heard, if there was the slight possibility of having a classic server. It definitely wouldn't be a bad thing for Square either. Either way, if they held a community poll to gauge interest in having a classic server, good or bad, we'd finally have a definitive answer. So what's the harm?

Not like it costs anything to have a forum poll. In fact, it would probably generate enough buzz to make the headlines of some websites and forums, and you know what they say about publicity.

The same argument as before: It would divide an already small population even further, with no guarantees it would bring more players back. Also, the nostalgia filter just doesn't live up in reality. We look back at the good old days and remember the fun we had, but it's just not the same. Further, nobody wants to roll back their character years and years, as much fun as they might think a classic server would be. The only people who would really win here are those who haven't played in years and years, and if you're one of those people, the probability is very high you've already moved on and wouldn't come back because something newer is occupying your time.

Finally, there's the "we don't want to spend the money" and such that SE would say if they actually responded to this. They don't even want to invest in the work required to be able to continue developing content updates after the death of their PS2 hardware. This would be a really hard sell to them.

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What about player retention and revenue; the potential a classic server could have on bringing people into the game,

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This would have virtually no impact on player retention, because the peopel playing now are playing because they're happy with the game in its current state. I don't know anyone who's only playing because they're hoping a classic server will become a thing if they keep paying SE long enough. The game is not big enough for a classic server to have real likelyhood of generating significant extra revenue.

There is a virtually 0% chance that a classic server would bring in *new* players. The game has a reputation, and most of that reputation comes from its earlier years- Current MMO players would find classic XI's grind torturous, its cryptic quests (and lack of rewards within) frustrating, etc. That's not to say we didn't like it back then, but the dynamics of the industry have irreversibly changed; nobody wants to play a game as slow as XI was back in the day. It would certianly be a nice thing for old time players looking to scratch an itch. But that's a pretty small number of people.

I'm not saying in any way that the concept of the classic server is a bad thing in and of itself: I'm only saying why it most likely wouldn't happen. SE, if they've ever even looked at the idea, probably think the result wouldn't be worth the investment.

What works for one game won't necessairly work for another; just because this or that game made a classic server and got something out of it, doesn't mean it will work for another.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The same argument as before: It would divide an already small population even further, with no guarantees it would bring more players back.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Further, nobody wants to roll back their character years and years, as much fun as they might think a classic server would be. The only people who would really win here are those who haven't played in years and years, and if you're one of those people, the probability is very high you've already moved on and wouldn't come back because something newer is occupying your time.

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You're contradicting yourself a bit. You said in your opening sentence that it would divide the population, but now you're saying that no one would be interested?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Also, the nostalgia filter just doesn't live up in reality. We look back at the good old days and remember the fun we had, but it's just not the same.

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You're assuming nostalgia would be the only driving factor. Some people believe the game was genuinely better back then, myself and more than half my shell included. Besides, numbers don't lie. Classic and progression servers have shown to be hugely successful.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Finally, there's the "we don't want to spend the money" and such that SE would say if they actually responded to this.

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Any response would be better than no response, but supposition.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

This would have virtually no impact on player retention, because the peopel playing now are playing because they're happy with the game in its current state. I don't know anyone who's only playing because they're hoping a classic server will become a thing if they keep paying SE long enough.

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Supposition again. I've been subbing for a few months now, and I would jump at the chance to play on a classic server. Most of my friends quit once Abyssea came out, but would return if they introduced a classic server.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The game is not big enough for a classic server to have real likelyhood of generating significant extra revenue.

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Yes it is, there are currently more people playing this than there are playing Darkfall and NA/EU Lineage 2. Yet those games can manage to have classic servers.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

There is a virtually 0% chance that a classic server would bring in *new* players. The game has a reputation, and most of that reputation comes from its earlier years- Current MMO players would find classic XI's grind torturous, its cryptic quests (and lack of rewards within) frustrating, etc. That's not to say we didn't like it back then, but the dynamics of the industry have irreversibly changed; nobody wants to play a game as slow as XI was back in the day. It would certianly be a nice thing for old time players looking to scratch an itch. But that's a pretty small number of people.

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Virtually 0%? This is total supposition, backed by your own personal feelings. I respect your opinion, but I'm going to need evidence to support what you're saying.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

What works for one game won't necessairly work for another.

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Then why is every MMO under the sun copying Warcraft? FFXIV included. Square have shown that they're willing to copycat things that are successful.

Square don't want to put any effort into the game at all, so there is no way they would do this.

You can play solo on the ffxi phone app when it comes out at least!

Well if it was a community poll, then why wouldn't abyssea be an option other than 'you dont want it'.

Also referencing illegal applications that SE has been legaly trying to stop as the basis for why you want something isn't exactly a smart idea unless you are trying to get the thread lock...

Well from a pure business perspective, it wouldn't make sense for Square Enix to build and maintain a product that virtually nobody wants.

From a player perspective, it wouldn't make sense to play a game where everything requires an alliance when you barely have the playerbase to build a single party.

Classic server, what's the argument for it now?

Given that they stated that the mobile client at first will go no father than COP for a while
there's going to little call for it at all.

Okay controls maybe different(bluetooth controls?) and a smaller screen(hdmi out?) and far from ideal.

Its also viable to develop due to the "new exiting mobile gaming market" rather than a stale older platform.

not saying it a bad idea, I just wouldnt be getting my hopes up and be happy of the possibility the mobile client may bring.

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Originally Posted by Rainehx

Classic server, what's the argument for it now?

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I believe the argument for it is "I want it! I know like 5 other guys who want it. Therefore, extrapolating, there must be at least 2,000 people who want it.".

Classic FFXI barely worked in the days when average server population was 3,000. When it did work, it was largely because there weren't many other good options. Now you've got World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy 14. How is it gonna work when it's now 1/5 that? Especially when the population is divided among time zone and language barriers?

A classic server would inevitably experience the same player polarization where the group that got in on the ground level has all the jobs they care about into the upper levels, leaving an inadequate amount of players to form parties with for the stragglers and the curious late-comers. With no Level Sync or Trust system, the income of new players would slow to a trickle. Only so many veteran playerrs are going to be up to power leveling the late-comers (at least, the ones who are fine with leveling with a living-player-trust-system instead of the classic method that people want this kind of server for in the first place) and hopping on unused lvl 1 jobs to party with low levels will only go so far.

On the other end of the polarization, you'll eventually have people quitting because they're done, RL issues, etc, with hardly anyone new coming into the server to replace them, causing the population to drop. Then you're back to square one again.

I have nothing against the idea, I had the same desire with EverQuest, but it's sort of a growing pain when it comes to the nature of MMORPGs. SE is clearly looking to wrap up FFXI while putting out replacements to keep a numbered title of the FF franchise in existance in one form or another. They may feel like we already got our classic/progression server when the game originally launched, and don't see a point in financing a temporary revival of the original experience. Just because other games have progression servers doesn't mean FFXI must, and SE copy/pasted the WoW themepark formula to turn FFXIV from a broken game to a functioning one.

If FFXI Mobile turns out to be a full reboot, and not just a retooling of the client to access the same servers, that's likely to be the closest we're going to get, they're even dubbing it as a first step of the MMMRPG genre, which makes it seem unlikely that they'd suddenly put the work into a progression server that might interfere with FFXI mobile.

Oh yeah, I'm gonna go back to 75 cap when it took me 5 hours to get a party 'cause I didn't play a useful job, and it'll take me a whole year to level a useful job, let alone gear it. And maybe, if I do a LOT of gardening, I'll have enough gil in 10 years to make a single relic.

Yeah, no. Please take off the rose-tinted glasses.

Also, Project1999, last time I played it, had roughly 700 people online at a time, and was absolutely horrible because there were a) no low level people to party with, b) half the classes no one wanted, so they were left attempting to solo, or giving up, because of the no-boxing rule.

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Originally Posted by machini

Oh yeah, I'm gonna go back to 75 cap when it took me 5 hours to get a party 'cause I didn't play a useful job, and it'll take me a whole year to level a useful job, let alone gear it. And maybe, if I do a LOT of gardening, I'll have enough gil in 10 years to make a single relic.

Yeah, no. Please take off the rose-tinted glasses.

Also, Project1999, last time I played it, had roughly 700 people online at a time, and was absolutely horrible because there were a) no low level people to party with, b) half the classes no one wanted, so they were left attempting to solo, or giving up, because of the no-boxing rule.

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Pretty sure there's around twice that population during peak now. I've also never noticed any of the issues you mention, even during the times I played while the server was less populated. The only class I ever heard anyone really complain about was Ranger (because of how lackluster they are in classic) and maybe hybrids because of the xp penalty.

Not that I'm advocating for a FFXI classic server as I personally have no interest in it. Heck, I wouldn't have even came back if not for the addition of Trusts and RoE. The days of going hours without a group on my DRK are not days I ever want to relive. Even EQ wasn't so unforgiving in its heyday because you could still manage to solo on most classes if you knew what you were doing. It wasn't typically efficient in most cases but it was at least an option.

i'd definitely support a classic server. lvl 75, everything up to and including Aht Urghan. (i would be ok with wotg but a lot of the wotg end game is post 75, mission line reward is lvl 90 ear ring etc so wouldn't work) You would need lvl sync to support lower population, but Fov, GoV and RoE is not needed, that way 6 man leveling groups would exist and their would be enough people to form them. There is more than enough demand for this to work.

Though a community poll probably wouldn't work on these forums as, as shown by whenever a classic server post comes up, everyone still on these forums is still playing current ffxi and thus probably isn't in favor of a classic server. Most people who are in favor are not on these forums.

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Any response would be better than no response, but supposition.

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I point you to the core reasons why major updates are stopping in the first place (Hint: It's not really about the number of players). Even if they in their hearts wanted to do this, it is probable they would have development issues from the lack of hardware. And yes, there would be development and costs involved in this; it would not be as simple as redistributing old client files (Which, there is no guarantee they still have them. Smart studios do often keep archives of their projects in an SVN but you never know...).

Also I have to agree with others who have said "what time do we go back to? Who decides?" and that it would be difficult to find a consensus. Most people speak of somewhere before level cap increase, but here's the thing: I don't really consider the level cap rise or Abyssea to have been bad things by themselves. The real problem, which the devs admitted, was the "Where do we go from here?". Abyssea was a power playground. It made you feel powerful and it was a lot of fun for a while. The problem came when abyssea reached its conclusion- there was no way any future content could really top or compete with it without simply copying its features (which voidwatch did to some degree). They couldn't just put atma and abyssea content straight into the open world, because that would break the rest of the open world. So basically, they created content which really could not be surpassed, leaving future content unable could not deliver any of the thrills or sense of power that Abyssea had- So when people were done with Abyssea, there was nothing left in the game that could compare, so players left. Eventually they found a fairly decent way to go about it- however, it came way too late.

-- bla bla bla get to the point --

I think that releasing this would be damaging to the current version of the game, which has its share of players enjoying it and whom shouldn't be penalized from development efforts diverted to release this side project. I also wonder how long people would really enjoy the classic version, knowing it would get no updates (otherwise, it would eventually not be classic anymore). I'd think you'd have people getting bored after a while and then the effort invested in it would be wasted.

Also, as has been pointed out: The mobile version of the game will make its way here, and that will probably work to take people back since it's going to initally start with not all of the expansion content avialable. But SE contracted that out to someone else, they're not doing it themselves.

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Then why is every MMO under the sun copying Warcraft? FFXIV included. Square have shown that they're willing to copycat things that are successful.

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Well, it doesn't always work. Even when it does, the things you notice and like the most tend to be the things that aren't directly taken from WoW. Keep in mind also that WoW itself took plenty of things from games before it. WoW was primarily successful because of marketing- not because it was original, even for its time.

Ultimately, I think marketing was a major issue for SE with FFXI. It was really not marketed very well, especially outside of Japan. FFXIV is doing much better in the marketing department, and I think that's the real reason it's been successful. I got into FFXI originally at its launch because I was tired of waiting for world of warcraft to come out and a friend showed XI to me and I was like "hey that's cool." So I ended up playing FFXI. But once WoW came out and took off, XI's population immediately stagnated. If WoW had come out sooner, FFXI might not have ever been anywhere near as successful as it was.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

Classic FFXI barely worked in the days when average server population was 3,000.

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There were more people playing classic XI than there are currently playing XI now. Numbers don't lie, people preferred the older style of gameplay. Please provide evidence to the contrary, otherwise everything you say is just opinion/supposition.

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Originally Posted by nekroturkey

There were more people playing classic XI than there are currently playing XI now. Numbers don't lie, people preferred the older style of gameplay. Please provide evidence to the contrary, otherwise everything you say is just opinion/supposition.

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Correlation does not imply causation. The reason we have fewer players now has very little to do with preferring the older style of gameplay. There are many, many factors at work.

You're right the numbers don't lie. The problem is your interpretation of those numbers is flawed at best.

The most obvious factor is simply the game is old. People move on. The fact that there are fewer players now than many years ago does not imply the game is now bad when it was good before (Even WoW is far off its peak population- Although it remains strong today because of solid marketing). People have myriad reasons for leaving.
Some people left because they didn't like game changes. I know some people who left because they didn't make game changes fast enough (if they don't fix this job soon, I quit; a friend once said to me).
Some people left simply because they got bored of the same old game, even in spite of new content and features, whether they were good or not.
Some people left because new games came out that captured their interest (and that doesn't mean the game got worse for them, just something piqued their interest and they ran with it).
Some people left because they just don't have time for the game anymore. People's lives change, they get jobs, interests change, etc.
Your logic is flawed, because it operates under the presumption that "the old game is better" is the only reason players may have left. For some people, that may be a reason. Ask anyone on the street today if they've played an MMO. If they answer yes, ask them if they've played FFXI or heard of it. Few people will answer yes, and if they've heard of it, its very probable they've heard of it because of FFXI characters in other games (Dissidia FF, Thetarythm FF)

Honestly, FFXI always had a relatively low new player retention rate, because the game is pretty brutal, even to a new player, and even today it still is, compared to other games on the market. They get frustrated and leave before they discover the good stuff. I introduced many players ot this game, even in its early days. Most did not make it past level 10 and most never got to see the epic storylines in this game. So FFXI's real problem to me has always been that it was hard for them to hang on to new players long enough for them to get them hooked.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You're right the numbers don't lie. The problem is your interpretation of those numbers is flawed at best.

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Not really. More people played classic XI than there are currently playing right now. That's pretty much indisputable.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The most obvious factor is simply the game is old.

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Age means nothing, if an 11 year-old game like Warcraft is able to hit 10 million subscribers in 2014/2015. Being old won't inherently cause populations to dwindle.

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Originally Posted by Roja323

Also referencing illegal applications that SE has been legaly trying to stop as the basis for why you want something isn't exactly a smart idea unless you are trying to get the thread lock...

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What?

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Not really. More people played classic XI than there are currently playing right now. That's pretty much indisputable.

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You're missing the point. Like I said. The numbers are right. Your interpretation of them is wrong. The *REASON* more people played then is not simply "classic FFXI is better than new FFXI". **ALL MMOs** (Even WoW) lose players over time. WoW is far off its peak subscriber base. That doesn't mean that the reason people left is solely because the game was better on XYZ date.

You pretty much didn't read anything I wrote, and that tells me you're trolling, and not willing to respect any viewpoint that isn't your own.

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Age means nothing, if an 11 year-old game like Warcraft is able to hit 10 million subscribers in 2014/2015. Being old won't inherently cause populations to dwindle.

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Warcraft's success is largely due to marketing. FFXI was barely marketed at all in the US. Marketing is what keeps bringing people back every time there's a new update. WoW keeps getting faster, and there's plenty of people who liked the game when it was older. But in spite of that, the game is still quite successful today. It does still have less players than when it was newer, just like FFXI has less players than when it was newer, however.

You argue that classic is better and that's why people are gone now, but people say the same thing in WoW. The reason WoW has more players is better marketing. I don't know how else to say it. If anything you response counters your own argument because FFXI has been making many gradual shifts in WoW's direction, and yet hasn't grown. Why hasn't it grown? because SE doesn't give a crap about marketing it. This is really the biggest reason FFXI did not build a millions-strong playerbase. It really could have done it, even if it had today's content years ago.

Your counterarguments are based on flawed comparisons, and not understanding of the true reasons. FFXI might be on life support now, but did you know that when the game was originally made, they didn't even plan for it to last half as long as it has? They thought the game was going to be dead 5 years ago or more. To me, the fact that it's still here, even with less players, speaks volumes about how good it is. Many online games come and go, and they thought this would be no different, but it was different.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You pretty much didn't read anything I wrote, and that tells me you're trolling, and not willing to respect any viewpoint that isn't your own.

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I already told you that I respect your opinion, but that's all you're giving me is your opinion. If you want to have an actual discussion, I'm going to need sources and numbers, which you haven't yet provided.

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Originally Posted by nekroturkey

I already told you that I respect your opinion, but that's all you're giving me is your opinion. If you want to have an actual discussion,

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That's fine, but what you're giving is opinion as well. You seemed to insist that what you were saying was simply fact (and that was based on a misinterpretation of what I was saying).

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I'm going to need sources and numbers, which you haven't yet provided.

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Your sources and numbers don't prove anything. I'm not here to prove a fact. Although the information there is dated, you can see graphs of population data at mmocharts.com and probably other places, though. All MMOs eventually lose players off their peak. No game grows forever and that can easily be seen by looking at the stats for virtually any and all games on Steam, whether MMO, free to play, single player, or any other kind of game (feel free to look up and compare games on http://steamcharts.com/ ).

You say that the only (or biggest) reason why there are fewer players now is because the "classic" game ( we really don't have a clear definition of where the game was the most "classic") was better and people left purely because the game moved away from that. That is an opinion, not a fact. The fact is, as I explained in many more words in previous posts, that there are many reasons for people leaving the game. You responded "But WoW still has players!" However, WoW is off it's peak players as well. Not as far off, but there has still been a decline.

Here's the thing. I'm not disputing your assertion that "There are fewer players now than there were back in the day." I don't disagree with that. What I disagree with is your stated reason of WHY the numbers are the way they are. You have an opinion of that, and so do I. Our opinions are not in agreement, but they are both opinions. You say you respect mine, and I respect yours. So, it is probably best that we agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

That's fine, but what you're giving is opinion as well. You seemed to insist that what you were saying was simply fact (and that was based on a misinterpretation of what I was saying).

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I'm not saying that I believe a classic server would be successful because it's what I want, but rather that a classic server would be successful, due to the success of classic/progression servers in other MMOs. My opinion isn't fact, but it's based on fact. The facts that I've provided (with sources) are the basis for my belief.

What we know for a fact:

• There were more people playing FFXI back then, than there are people playing FFXI now. You said that people are currently playing the game because they're happy with the way that it plays. I agree, people wouldn't pay to play a game that they don't enjoy. So by that same logic, there were more people back then that enjoyed the way the game used to play than there are people now that enjoy the way the game currently plays. Thus, more people prefer the classic mechanics to the current mechanics.
  
  
• Everquest, Lineage 2, and Darkfall Online recognize the potential of classic servers and the amount of players interested in them. Even Runescape has classic servers now. Project 1999 consistently has 1500+ players playing at any given time (that Daybreak/SOE have officially recognized) with an official Everquest progression server being released soon. Lineage 2 reached 15,000 signatures supporting a classic server, and Darkfall Online will be bringing back their original servers due to player demand. Even the developers of Darkfall believe that a classic server would be good for their current servers:
  
  http://i.imgur.com/BFBSxzT.png

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I'm not saying that I believe a classic server would be successful because it's what I want, but rather that a classic server would be successful, due to the success of classic/progression servers in other MMOs.

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While I have no problem with you suggesting that there is a chance for this to be successful because other people succeeded, as I have stated before, other games having success with it is NOT a guarantee that it will work for this game. While you have cited that some games' developers have indicated player demand for such a feature, there has been no such data to indicate such a demand here. Other than this topic occasionally appearing here (and going away fairly quickly) with a couple people saying they like the idea, I've seen little to suggest that there is much demand for it in this game. I rarely see anyone talk about it in game, and there has not been very much discussion about it here. This thread has been mostly you and me arguing, with only a few others commenting in any way.

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Thus, more people prefer the classic mechanics to the current mechanics.

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This is a highly dubious statement, as you have no reliable statistics to back it up. SOME people do prefer one, and SOME people prefer another. We have no reliable data that says how many prefer each. We also have no reliable data that tells us the specific reason that people that are not currently playing have left. You seem to be under the impression that every person not currently playing the game is not playing it because they think the current game is inferior to the state of the game at some point in the past. As I have mentioned on multiple occasions and you seem to have ignored, there are many reasons for a player to leave the game that have little to do with their perception of the current state of the game vs the state of the game at some unspecified date in the past. I will once again list many of these reasons:

-Player can no longer afford to play / don't want to spend money on it anymore, independent of their like for the game
-Player lost interest through no fault of the game design but simply has had enough of the game
-Changes in life circumstances made it not possible for the player to keep playing
-Technical issues or other non-gameplay problems prevented them from playing and caused them to quit
-Player doesn't like how the game has changed over time (your stated reason)
-Player was socially ostracized (fairly uncommon but it does happen) leading them to quit
-Player was banned
-Player left game to join a game a friend was playing. This can independent of the player's personal happines with the game.
-Player couldn't figure the game out or didn't like the game and left before becoming a paying customer in the first place.

Your reason is one among many. You have no data that can tell us how many people left for what reason. There is also no data that can predict how many old players would return based purely on the addition of a classic server.

You can keep stating your facts about other studios making classic servers, but I will keep stating the fact that those companies doing so is in no way a guarantee that it would work for or be right for this game. But to play with your argument, I'd like to point out that WoW, a game you've cited on numerous occasions, does not have classic servers nor have I seen any indication they plan on making such a thing. If classic servers are so universally wonderful, one would expect that WoW would be doing this- after all, WoW has changed a lot since it launched, just as every MMO before and after it.

There are many reasons a player may leave the game, and there are many reasons they may or may not return. A classic server might help, or it might not. It's certainly possible, and the fact that some companies have succeeded with it indicates a possibility. It does not, however, guarantee that possibility. You are welcome to your opinion that it is more probable than not. I disagree, however I respect that opinion. You aren't going to sway me with the information you currently are offering, nor does it seem I will sway you with logic and theory. It is in our best interests to agree to disagree. That's what I'm going to do now, and I hope you will do the same.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

While I have no problem with you suggesting that there is a chance for this to be successful because other people succeeded, as I have stated before, other games having success with it is NOT a guarantee that it will work for this game.

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Like you said, other players have made similar threads in the past. You even said yourself that creating a classic server would divide the population, meaning there are enough current players interested in a classic server to disrupt the populations on the main servers.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

This is a highly dubious statement, as you have no reliable statistics to back it up. SOME people do prefer one, and SOME people prefer another. We have no reliable data that says how many prefer each.

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We have enough data to determine that there were more people playing back then than there are people playing now. Now by your logic from earlier, which I agree with, people only pay to play games they enjoy. People are playing now because they enjoy the game now. People were playing then because they enjoyed the game then.

Now since there were more people playing back then than there are now, we can say with 100% certainty that more people would be interested in playing the game as it once was, rather than as it is now.

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Originally Posted by nekroturkey

There were more people playing classic XI than there are currently playing XI now. Numbers don't lie, people preferred the older style of gameplay. Please provide evidence to the contrary, otherwise everything you say is just opinion/supposition.

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There could be many reasons for why there were more players then. When the game launched in 2002, EQ was the most known MMO, and FFXI was based on its design. There weren't many other choices. Also, FFXI was the first MMORPG on a console, and had a big known brand name on it, so you got a huge influx of JP players on it right away. The name got it lots of attention when it released in English on PC as well. All MMORPGs back then had lots of grinding for everything, it was accepted design. WoW's release changed that, especially after an expansion or two, and people started copying that, removing grind in some places. Some MMO players are also short-term players to any single game, they keep jumping to new ones.

I started this game when I was 19. I'm now 32. I don't have the free time I did as a youth, and I wouldn't start a game like FFXI again now if it had the grind that the original game did. A lot of the veteran population is in a similar situation. I was single, not in college yet, and had low living expenses while working to save up for school, so I had many hours to play. Now I work a job with longer hours (including weeks where I am on-call 24/7), am married (a serious relationship is hard to have with an MMO that takes 8+ hours a day), and have living expenses I have to deal with. The people that were in the situation I was 13 years ago have many more choices, and antiquated design like FFXI is not going to appeal to them now. FFXI was like an iPhone back in 2006, before Android really came out in force. Choice was so few, you went with that option or not at all. Now you have the choice of hundreds of games, so the population is going to be spread across them more, and each game is going to get a thinner share.

Either you're going to argue that other MMO's successfully created classic servers, or you're going to argue "more people were playing back then, ergo, the game was better back then", but you can't have both without contradicting yourself.

I'm fairly certain that in any example you point to of an MMORPG that has a classic server, that one server is outnumbered by the normal servers, and its population is outnumbered by the combined population of the game's normal servers combined. In short, within the scope of just the MMORPG with the classic server, there are more people playing the game as it currently is than there are playing on the game's classic server.

If you're going to say that FFXI was better back then because more people were playing back then, then it suggests that these MMOs with classic servers are actually better games on their standard servers than on their classic servers, because more people are playing on the standard servers than the classic ones.

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Originally Posted by nekroturkey

There were more people playing classic XI than there are currently playing XI now. Numbers don't lie, people preferred the older style of gameplay. Please provide evidence to the contrary, otherwise everything you say is just opinion/supposition.

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This is a really dumb conclusion to draw, that the ONLY reason more people played in the past was because they liked things like taking 9-12 months to level a job, or waiting 3 hours to have a chance to claim a Notorious Monster, or liked needing a full alliance to do anything, or liked that endgame linkshells were basically pyramid schemes where the earliest joiners got the best items while later joiners spent countless hours grinding or camping an NM for a hope at the scraps.

As Analenhem said, there are a host of reasons people likely left: less time due to real life commitments, simple boredom, being drawn to another game. I've known dozens of people who quit, and not a one of them did so because Abyssea or Adoulin era content was too easy. You're simply attributing your preferences to large masses of people to support your thesis.

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Originally Posted by nekroturkey

I'm not saying that I believe a classic server would be successful because it's what I want, but rather that a classic server would be successful, due to the success of classic/progression servers in other MMOs. My opinion isn't fact, but it's based on fact. The facts that I've provided (with sources) are the basis for my belief.

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This sounds like the exact same fallacy that TV executives make when they rip off some popular show (like Friends or Sex in the City) to make another show (like Joey or Lipstick Jungle). They believe that the basic format will instantly guarantee success. But it fails more often than not.

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Originally Posted by Isal

If you're going to say that FFXI was better back then because more people were playing back then, then it suggests that these MMOs with classic servers are actually better games on their standard servers than on their classic servers, because more people are playing on the standard servers than the classic ones.

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There are more people playing on Project 1999's server than any single server of Everquest. Darkfall Online (1.0) had more players than Unholy Wars (2.0) currently does. There are currently more people playing on the Lineage 2 classic servers in Korea than there are people playing on the standard servers. Once Lineage 2's international classic server is released, we'll see how well it does over here.

So actually, you're mistaken.

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I started this game when I was 19. I'm now 32. I don't have the free time I did as a youth, and I wouldn't start a game like FFXI again now if it had the grind that the original game did.

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This is almost exactly my selfsame story (I was 18 and now 31 :p). And I still drop in on the game often even if I'm not continuously active. It's largely a matter of time to play. You have to remember just how much time has passed since many of us fell in love with the game. A lot can happen in that amount of time that has literally nothing to do with the game itself. Even the youngest players of the game when it was new are now full fledged adults.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Even the youngest players of the game when it was new are now full fledged adults.

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Most of the people who played Everquest when it came out were adults to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

This is a really dumb conclusion to draw

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No, it isn't. If they were paying to play, then chances are they were enjoying themselves. If they weren't enjoying themselves, then chances are they would've stopped paying to play. What's dumb is paying to play a game that you hate, which it sounds like you did, which is quite odd.

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Most of the people who played Everquest when it came out were adults to begin with.

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And.....?

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What's dumb is paying to play a game that you hate, which it sounds like you did, which is quite odd.

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He's not saying he didn't like the game. He liked the game in spite of what he saw as flaws looking back. And I agree they were flaws. There are so many enjoyable parts to the game, both back then and today, but the extreme grind and competing with 100+ people for the chance to fight a monster was really not the best part of the game to me. Even when I was doing it; the endless waiting around doing nothing didn't take long to outweigh the thrill of winning the pull (which was pure luck, pretty much)

The biggest draws for me, especially in the earlier years, were the strong storyline, the wide range of classes, the core mechanics of the combat system, and just the feel of the world itself. For the most part all of those things remain today. The biggest negative is in progression becoming more vertical (however, it's still not nearly as much so as any other MMO I've played), but that didn't push me away. Mostly it has been a free time issue, and there are so many single player and other non MMO games that I want to play that I just can't devote the same level of time to an MMO (any MMO) that i once could.

You need to accept that people come and go for different reasons. Just because some people (like myself) have come and gone or play much less than they used to, that doesn't mean that the reason for it is because they miss the old game and can't get it back. There is no way I (and zarchery and others without forum representation) would play on a classic server, largely because there are too many fun things that have come out since the early days. The things I would want most that I don't have now would require me to literally go back in time- a classic server today wouldn't fix my issues. E.g. I want to go back in time to when Ballista enjoyed some popularity. The people I see most wanting the classic server almost definitely do not want it for that reason and therefore I would have the same problem there that I do now: Nobody does Ballista anymore. Only a time machine would fix that (Even fixing ballista up wouldn't fix that because most people have made up their minds).

You may find it crazy, you may find it irrational, but all it takes is a scanning of this thread (and the other ones before it) to realize that there's hardly a united front on this issue. The players who stand to benefit the most are the hardest of the hardcore. I'm not trying to suggest they don't deserve to have as much fun as anyone else, but if you can't please everybody, why would you prioritize the tip of the bell curve rather than the mass in the middle? Some people want it, some people don't. Great- But should we really fracture the already small community just for the sake of trying to make SE some extra money ?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Great- But should we really fracture the already small community just for the sake of trying to make SE some extra money ?

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I'm still not sure which direction you're going. Do you believe a classic server would divide the community, or do you believe that no one would be interested? Because you're flip-flopping a bit.

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Originally Posted by nekroturkey

I'm still not sure which direction you're going. Do you believe a classic server would divide the community, or do you believe that no one would be interested? Because you're flip-flopping a bit.

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I never said that "no one" is interested, therefore I'm not "flip flopping." What I *did* say is it's primarily one specific segment of the player base that has the most interest.

If you remove that one segment (which is integral to the health of the community regardless of size) and place it in it's own little world, you are damaging the health of the community that you took the population from.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I never said that "no one" is interested

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Further, nobody wants to roll back their character years and years

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If you say so.

Would they really have to do much other than make a new server, not allow transfers to it, and disable limit breaks above lvl 75? Personally I think that would be pretty cool and I'd make a character on it.