Hachirin-no-Obi

This item, like the elemental obis that came before it, doesn't just force day/weather bonus proc, it also forces the penalty for opposing element. With the old obis this wasn't relevant, but since the new obi covers all elements at once, this actually makes it a downgrade in instances of opposing elemental day + weather.

For example, let's say you want to nuke with aero during wind weather, but it happens to be iceday. With the old obi you would get the guaranteed +10% wind damage from the weather, and a low chance of a -10% wind damage proc from iceday. With the new obi you would get guaranteed +10% wind damage bonus and a guaranteed -10% wind damage penalty.

In that scenario the Hachirin-no-Obi is just a wasted equipment slot, but in other cases it could be much worse. For example casting a cure in dynamis (double dark weather) during lights day would guarantee a +10% bonus and a -20% penalty.

Shouldn't this item simply be saving us seven inventory slots without penalty, like the Fotia gorget and belt? Does it really need to be situationally worse than the old obis?

Well technically it is just forcing the day/weather proc it's just day weather can work both ways. But yeah I agree it's kind of dumb as is

Agreed with op, this annoys the crap out of me too.

Yeah, it should preferentially apply the positive effects.

If they change it, should the chance of negative weather still happen, or should the obi remove the effect of negative weather and the day?

Bump, because this deserves dev attention IMO.

this happens with the uncombined obi as well
i.e. for Anrin Obi(dark)
day = lightsday -10%
weather = gloom ("single weather") + 10%
total bonus = 0%

with Hachirin-no-Obi(dark spell)
day = lightsday - 10%
weather = gloom ("single weather") + 10%
total bonus = 0% and MP not depleted when magic used +1%

so your still getting more by using it

So far as I'm aware, the original obis didn't give you the penalty for other days. If you wore the Korin Obi and cast a cure with Light Weather, Dark Day, you would get the boost 100% of the time, and the penalty only 10% of the time. To force the penalty you'd have to wear the Anrin Obi, then the bonus would only kick in 10% of the time and the penalty would 100% of the time. That's to my knowledge however, I could easily be wrong. If I'm right however, that's the issue people are having, that the penalty is forced 100% of the time now as well as the bonus.

Yeah, with the old obis the penalty would only be forced if you were using exactly the wrong one, like casting fire in water obi during water day/weather. I'm not sure what SMD111 is trying to say.

But now you are always wearing the right and wrong ones :)

The concept of the Hachirin-no-Obi’s benefits are based off the effects of day and weather, so we will not be removing the detrimental effects portion of this waist.

We’d like players to pay close attention to when the day and weather are conflicting.

That turns this obi froma space saver into another wasted slot. Please reconsider.

This makes combining obis an entirely pointless endeavour. What is the point of making the new obi if you still need the other eight?

I think all players understand the concept behind the obis. It simply doesn't work when they are combined. This needs to be looked at again, and properly.

i like it the way it is. if you have a conflicting day/weather, use yamabuki-no-obi instead. easy.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

That turns this obi froma space saver into another wasted slot. Please reconsider.

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This. It completely defeats the purpose of having it in the first place. Why would I make all the obis then combine them and then refarm all the obis again when I'm basically going to have to end up just using the original 8 anyways? For that 1% chance at a free spell lol? As I already made it I'm kinda irked I have to refarm and probably will just toss this one or put it in storage. Imagine if you had made the ws ones not work with conflicting ws elements and how dumb that would be or if you had made chat staff have all the negatives too lol

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

The concept of the Hachirin-no-Obi’s benefits are based off the effects of day and weather, so we will not be removing the detrimental effects portion of this waist.

We’d like players to pay close attention to when the day and weather are conflicting.

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So this new obi being inferior to the ones from a decade ago is intended?

I have to agree with the majority consensus and hope the Development Team reconsiders. The whole point of combining them was so they you'd actually save inventory. Compare this to the combined gorget and belt, there is no penalty associated with it. It's hands down stronger than the gorgets or belts alone with no side effects. A true inventory +7 in every manner of speaking.

While the obi side effects were there to begin with. There was no real penalty as you just swapped it out for another obi. This detrimental effect of them all combined actually makes it worse than 8 obis. The development team recently acknowledged elemental magic has fallen behind, so why make an item that is worse than holding the original 8 in your inventory? Sure, it's inventory+7 technically speaking but at a price. Whereas with melee which is a far superior source of output in most cases, has no caveat at all.

It's like if the development team decided Ninja could have universal tools but only if they occasionally lessened the potency of Ninjutsu.

TL;DR: Fotia Gorget and Fotia Belt are both an improvement while Hachirin-no-Obi is essentially a trade off.

I didn't want to amend my first post but I just thought a better example would be Iridal/Chatoyant staff. It doesn't have weaknesses from being combined even though each part of it did. Neither did it rely on day/weather for its base effect of potency and accuracy. They didn't even change the level you could use it. I honestly don't see why the same consideration can't be made for Hachirin-no-obi or what imbalance it causes given there is already an item almost exactly like it, except easier to trigger.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Twilight_Cape

I forgot all about that. Good point!

Talk about buyer's remorse... Are you guys planning on adding a de-synth option so we can un-make this thing?

I'm really disappointed.

This item needs to be fixed, why would i make something that in the long run its just gonna hurt me? makes no sense SE, until you decided to remove this Bs penalty i am not making this waste of time item. rather keep mine separate and avoid this bs forced penalty

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Originally Posted by V-1000

This item needs to be fixed, why would i make something that in the long run its just gonna hurt me? makes no sense SE, until you decided to remove this Bs penalty i am not making this waste of time item. rather keep mine separate and avoid this bs forced penalty

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Sadly I made mine within the first couple hours after the update before we found out. So now I'm stuck with this hunk of junk and gotta go refarm my old obis back

Bump because I really regret making my Obi but am waiting to refarm the old ones because really they should be fixing this >.>

Introduces items to save inventory space for mages and melees... inserts a flaw into the mage one so that it actually decreases their inventory while making them have to refarm everything over again...

Yeah it's pretty trolly when you think about it, lol I don't know why they wouldn't simply make it always beneficial like the others.

Bump because I really regret making my Obi but am waiting to refarm the old ones still and am really hoping a dev gets passed along these opinions.

i for one am glad for it. it saved me 7 inventory spaces. i already have yamabuki-no-obi for say when i'm nuking a wind spell during watersday (no benefit to using hachirin-no-obi then), so i just switch to that when there is opposing day/weather for hachirin-no-obi. same dif.

If that's your argument, why use the Hachirin at all? Save another inventory space if it's the "same dif" to you.

For me on the otherhand, it's inventory-1, because if this doesn't change by next patch, I'll be farming up all the obis again to use when it's a wind spell during watersday, and then use hachirin when it's not. It's all a matter of how far you'll go for efficiency, you're ridiculous for calling the situation the same when obviously you know it's not the same, otherwise you'd fulltime yamabuki, if it was. You're just for some reason alright with not having the obi in certain situations, while others of us are not, for those of us that aren't willing to lose that bonus, nor the random free mp cost, it's inventory -1 from the old days.

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Originally Posted by Selindrile

If that's your argument, why use the Hachirin at all? Save another inventory space if it's the "same dif" to you.

For me on the otherhand, it's inventory-1, because if this doesn't change by next patch, I'll be farming up all the obis again to use when it's a wind spell during watersday, and then use hachirin when it's not. It's all a matter of how far you'll go for efficiency, you're ridiculous for calling the situation the same when obviously you know it's not the same, otherwise you'd fulltime yamabuki, if it was. You're just for some reason alright with not having the obi in certain situations, while others of us are not, for those of us that aren't willing to lose that bonus, nor the random free mp cost, it's inventory -1 from the old days.

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that makes no sense whatsoever. you just make whatever garbage up that you want, don't you? efficiency has nothing to do with it. it has to do with what is providing more damage and inventory space. why would i fulltime yamabuki when hachirin would give me more damage?

hachirin is BiS when the appropriate day/weather is on. it does nothing when it isn't and so one must use another waist piece to see any benefit. The "same dif" is the following:

-use hachirin when it gives a benefit.
-use another waist when hachirin gives no benefit.

"I'll be farming up all the obis again to use when it's a wind spell during watersday, and then use hachirin when it's not." why would you use a single element obi to nuke a wind spell on watersday? it would do no extra damage, you might as well have nothing equipped. if by chance it is nuking wind while wind weather you are meaning, then hachirin would provide the same benefit.

Pretty sure Selindrile meant using wind nukes with wind weather on iceday. In which case Furin Obi would make the bonus from weather always happen, and the penalty from the day stay at the normal rate.

Ulth: I did indeed mean using a wind nuke with weather on say iceday, exactly, I misspoke.

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Originally Posted by Protey

that makes no sense whatsoever. you just make whatever garbage up that you want, don't you? efficiency has nothing to do with it. it has to do with what is providing more damage and inventory space. why would i fulltime yamabuki when hachirin would give me more damage?

hachirin is BiS when the appropriate day/weather is on. it does nothing when it isn't and so one must use another waist piece to see any benefit. The "same dif" is the following:

-use hachirin when it gives a benefit.
-use another waist when hachirin gives no benefit.

"I'll be farming up all the obis again to use when it's a wind spell during watersday, and then use hachirin when it's not." why would you use a single element obi to nuke a wind spell on watersday? it would do no extra damage, you might as well have nothing equipped. if by chance it is nuking wind while wind weather you are meaning, then hachirin would provide the same benefit.

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Extrapolate this with any logic at all and you can see what I meant lol, I don't see how I'm making up "any sort of garbge"

-use hachirin when it gives a benefit.
-use another waist when hachirin gives no benefit.
Example -Furin Obi when it's windsday with ice weather, because that's best in slot in such a condition.

It comes down to: Are you willing to get inventory -1 for the benefit of Hachirin over Yamabuki when the day/weather combo is in your favor? Are you willing to get inventory -8 for the benefit whever just the day or weather is in your favor instead of Hachirin? Are you willing to take inventory -9 for having the chance of not losing MP when the weather combo is in your favor, but still having the other obis when only the weather or day is in your favor?

This is a question of efficiency, how much inventory/extra effort are you willing to sacrifice for maximum efficiency?

I ask you the same question. Why would you settle for Yamabuki when the day/weather combo is not in your favor though one of them is active as opposed to using Furin?

Like I said, it's a combination of damage AND inventory. you have to have yamabuki anyway since even when you have the single element obis there are going to be times when they give no benefit. And it's not efficiency (efficiency as defined: accomplish something with a minimum expenditure of time and effort) as I had to go farm the dark and light obis and get the hachirin synthed. that's extra work that didn't need to be done just so I could have more inventory space. The situation for example of where I want to nuke a wind spell on windsday but have ice weather is very, very rare. I would gladly settle for yamabuki for that situation which has only happened to me maybe two or three times in the 10 years I have been playing this game.

It's not a rare occurrence for sch. For sch the odds of it happening is 1/8 of the time.

Yes, the inventory is a tradeoff, I'm arguing that it shouldn't be a matter of weighing the inventory versus the extra situational damage, you're functionally arguing for something to occasionally fail for you when it usually would be applicable, it's hilarious, but also astounding.

Imagine say Vitivation Tabard lost Fast Cast if it happened to be Dark Weather, and you argued that you liked this function, because you could just use Anhur Robe for precast, because it's close, and for some reason you like this drawback, this is a very similar situation.

These items were created essentially to reduce inventory clutter, for some of us, they did the opposite, if for no other reason they should be changed.

Also, since you brought definitions into this:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/efficiency
1. the state or quality of being efficient, or able to accomplish something with the least waste of time and effort; competency in performance.

It admittedly can get a bit murky, but in this case I'm referring to accomplishing say 100,000 damage over the course of a certain amount of time, it is more efficient to use the best nuking piece, rather than the second best, to achieve this goal, sorry for being unspecific but I figured most people could follow that logic.

Lastly: 2 or 3 times in 10 years? Honestly? I see it all the time in current content, Blu/Sch nuking in Yorcia Skirmish, I put up Windstorm and am extremely annoyed when it's Iceday because my Hachirin is not the best option and I have to change to Yamabuki, and I'm extremely annoyed when I notice it mid-run. For Scholars or those using /Sch it comes up quite frequently, or say using a cure spell in Dynamis on lightsday, or casting a cure spell in Nyzul Isle on darksday, these aren't that rare of occurrences.

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Originally Posted by Ulth

It's not a rare occurrence for sch. For sch the odds of it happening is 1/8 of the time.

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Perhaps more than that, I haven't tested this, but what happens if you have a scholar weather effect that is opposed to the current weather effect and use the obi?

Say it's ice weather, and you have windstorm up? I assume Hachirin would give you the windstorm bonus and the actual ice weather's detriment, though I haven't tested this myself, but the odds are at least as bad as 1/8th of the time for scholars due to day of the week with elemental storms.

I only play BLM for nuking and I'm always /rdm. so yea, very very rare for me to have opposing day to weather for the particular nuke. And your analogy with vitivation tabard: what did I get in exchange? you left that part off. I wouldn't advocate for that restriction without getting something worthwhile in return.

edit: also... who casts cure in dyna and nyzul?!?

So because this is rare for you, you're against them changing it, because screw everyone else?

You're advocating this restriction without getting something worthwhile in return, simply FC-2 comparatively, versus the current situations "losing a small amount of elemental damage" in this rare (for you) situation that occurs.

Who casts cure in Dyna and Nyzul? Thousands of people over the course of the 10 years you cited, and even today, I sometimes go in Blu to cleave when I have a friend who needs a particular piece from a zone, and I have them come as something that can cure me, this is only really for obtaining whatever gear they're after, not for general farming. You'd be surprised at how much damage you can take even at i119 with a crapton of beastmen 2hring you. And in Nyzul when farming tokens, the Brd or Smn who is primarily there to increase our movement speed will occasionally toss cures, and again, over the 10 year history you cited, tons of people.

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Originally Posted by Selindrile

Perhaps more than that, I haven't tested this, but what happens if you have a scholar weather effect that is opposed to the current weather effect and use the obi?

Say it's ice weather, and you have windstorm up? I assume Hachirin would give you the windstorm bonus and the actual ice weather's detriment, though I haven't tested this myself, but the odds are at least as bad as 1/8th of the time for scholars due to day of the week with elemental storms.

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Sch storm spells take precedence over local weather. They do stack with single weather of the same type. Like auroras with aurorastorm will make double weather stellar glare, but if you use auroastorm in outer raz the dark weather will be over written with a single weather auroras.

My gripe is that the Gorget and Belt have no downside but the Obi does.