Rune Fencer & Ninja ~ Small Idea to Make it a Real Tank

Hello~

I just want a small adjust to make Rune Fencer & Ninja As more "Tank Mode" a reall usefull by thier Abilty to Tank.

As we Know : PLD the main Perfect tank huge def & power Shileds (Aegis -50 magic damge taken makes no need to RUN to tank at all)

Rune Fencer : as SE said its Tank Magic type & support the party about Magic def stuffs

Ninja : Utsusemi Mode Tank ~ Shadow type , & SE made x2 Ability to make it as Mele or Tank chance & sadly we see both "tank" & "DD" NIN is failed latley.

What Run Fencer & Ninja needs to make them as "Real" Tank options ??

# Run Fencer : Add New Ability "immune Status" depond on Number type of Rune Enchantment for 33,3%

for example : Paralyze is "Ice" element base if you do "Ignis" x1 time , u will resist the Paralyze effect for 33,3% , "Ignis" x2 times , u will resist the Paralyze effect for 66,6% , "Ignis" x3 times , u will resist the Paralyze effect for 99,9% & thats mean
"immune to be Paralyzd"

So , Please we want Rune Funcer effect "immune Status" depond on elemnt base even if : Charm , Dia by "Tenebrae" x3 , Doom , Death , Bio , Sleep , Curse , Zombie & blind by "Lux" x3 , Petrification , Slow by "Flabra" x3 , Virus by "Unda" , Poison by "Sulpor" x3 , Silence , Mute , Gravity by "Gelus" x3 , Paralyze , Bind by "Ignis" x3 , Stun by "Tellus" x3.

we wish this New ability for High Lv of RUN & its Self effect
also we hope duration for 2 min , recast 5 min.

if there "bad side" of useing this Abilty "if we see it top power"
can u do your own Idea SE to make it Balance as example if we use this its will Prevent from use "Ward" , or weak effect of "Effusion" , or Cast & recast spell will be double duration (as Hasso/Seigan of sam).

but by "immune Status" , RUN really got a Job to be Main Tank.

# Ninja : its just x1 spell to Make NIN Back to Tank ~ Shadow type :

Add New spell : Utsusemi: San >>>>>>>>>>> but with conditions :

1/ if you cast Utsusemi: San w/o useing Job Abilities "Yonin" or "Innin" its will be same effect of Utsusemi: Ni exactly.

2/ if job ability "Yonin is used: each Shadow of Utsusemi: San will Absorb All type damge as x1 Single hit , even if AoE or Multi Attack , since its x1 type Attack will Absorb x1 Only , example : Firaga etc > on Utsusemi: Ichi & Ni will broke & will eat the damge , but Utsusemi: San will Absorb as x1 Shadow , and As Ability effect multi Hit as Goblin Rush (from Goblins) its will Absorb x1 , got it?

3/ if job ability "Innin is used: Utsusemi: San will work as Utsusemi: Ni exactly , and its posable to get bonus of Innin not just "target from behind" from every where, if Utsusemi: San wear off u have to cast it again to make Innin use from any position.

recast will cost 1 min & 30 sec (make sure not overpower)

If you Like the Ideas please >>>>>>>>>> Like :cool:

Charm is water based. Easy way to remember is to think mermaids and sirens singing sailors to their deaths.

And I think the main problem with blink tanking at this point has more to do with how there is really no way in hell to cap evasion against anything that actually matters. Since 95% of attacks hit the ninja can't tank as shadows go down faster than they go up.

I thought that ability was called pflug?

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Originally Posted by Ulth

Charm is water based. Easy way to remember is to think mermaids and sirens singing sailors to their deaths.

And I think the main problem with blink tanking at this point has more to do with how there is really no way in hell to cap evasion against anything that actually matters. Since 95% of attacks hit the ninja can't tank as shadows go down faster than they go up.

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I'm pretty curious where you got that idea. I'd thought charm being light based was fairly well known.

Charm is light based.

The runes already give magic resistance, which is magic evasion, so you can already resist status effects by using them, and actually quite effectively.

There's a lot of reasons why Ninjas can't tank, between AoE magic, mobs with too many hits per round, and mobs that have multiple types of auto attacks with some of them being very unfavorable.

There's probably more, but I've never partied with a Ninja tank. Part of the reason is that no one bothers to do it or even try to do it anymore. It's hard enough to find someone that actually wants to play Ninja, let alone a Ninja tank.

They've been gradually shifting ninja back in the direction of a DD since they're pretty hopeless as tanks in most modern content.

RUN is already better than most ppl seem to give credit, its just most things that a RUN can do a PLD can do better.

Also, charm is indeed light based, the player charm is determined by charisma which is the stat associated with the light element.

Also:

Original Poster, please don't make your posts in whacky colors, sizes, and justifications. It makes your post harder, not easier, to read.

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They've been gradually shifting ninja back in the direction of a DD since they're pretty hopeless as tanks in most modern content.

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They've stated just recently that they are looking into adding some new content where Ninjas can tank comfortably.

Those are probably the new unity NMs.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Also, charm is indeed light based, the player charm is determined by charisma which is the stat associated with the light element.

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So is a white mage's repose a water based sleep because it is determined by mind which is the stat associated with the water element?

Anyway I have been burned by believing information off ffxicolopedia before but
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ch...atus_Effect%29
If anyone has empirical evidence to dispute this, it would be greatly appreciated.

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Anyway I have been burned by believing information off ffxicolopedia before but
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ch...atus_Effect%29
If anyone has empirical evidence to dispute this, it would be greatly appreciated.

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That info about charm being water was added randomly on January 7th, 2014.

http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Charm

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So is a white mage's repose a water based sleep because it is determined by mind which is the stat associated with the water element?

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No, Repose is light. He was just giving some supporting information to back it up why it makes sense.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Le...Lost_and_Found

The RUN AF quest also show the break down of status Ailment to answer the question.

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Originally Posted by Crevox

That info about charm being water was added randomly on January 7th, 2014.

http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Charm



No, Repose is light. He was just giving some supporting information to back it up why it makes sense.

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Yeah, and I was giving information to refute his. Black mages' attribute for spells is INT, but that doesn't make all their elemental spells ice based. Also I like the information in the link

"The exact impact of Light Staff/Iridal Staff or Apollo's Staff/Chatoyant Staff on Charm is unknown, but they are believed to increase Charm rate by 10% and 15% respectively."

Words like unknown and believed make a strong case for charm being light based.

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Originally Posted by Stompa

Charm is definitely light-based.

A lot of those CHR items are named after things associated with light (positivity); Angels, Heavens, Moon, Hope.

Light staff, used by BSTs to charm mobs, is CHARM+10% while equipped during charm /ja.

Lightsday was always the best day to try and charm higher level pets.

Darksday was always notorious among BSTs, for being the day you would mis-charm almost continuously and die. Many BST would actually stop exping and simply just log-out on Darksday, and come back later on another day when the pets didn't try to rip your head off lol.

On a logic level, Charm = Love, you make the monster or person love you so it becomes your pet.

Love = Light, and Hate = Dark. :p

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I'm not trying to dispute that CHR is associated with light. And as I pointed out from the bgwiki people don't actually have proof that light staff does anything for charm. For all you know trying to charm on darksday and failing is just confirmation biases.

As for your logic, charm does not equal love. If you are charmed by something you don't actually love it, you just think you love it. Typically this is done by things that are youthful and beautiful, and personally I associate youth and beauty with water. The fountain of youth for example.

As for more logic as to why charm might be water based a lot of the mobs that use charm moves are water monsters like Lamiae, Poroggo, and Orobon.

With items there are two that give resist charm and have elemental resistance on them. One is the Wuji Ring, it gives resist charm and resist light, however it also gives resist dark and resist sleep. By my best guess the resisting light and dark has more to do with resisting sleep. The other item is M. No.17's Locket which gives resist charm and resist water.

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Originally Posted by Zeargi

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Le...Lost_and_Found

The RUN AF quest also show the break down of status Ailment to answer the question.

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This is actually interesting. I have a suspicion that the table was just filled in based on what people most commonly think the element for charm is. It seems like a good way to determine what element charm actually is though. A person would just have to keep failing until he does ask about charm then answer to see if they get it right.

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For all you know trying to charm on darksday and failing is just confirmation biases.

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I'm sure it's been properly tested enough times for it not to be 'confirmation bias.' that's not something BG has really been prone to. Information that isn't solidly proven tends to get removed, even if it's not necessarily wrong.

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I have a suspicion that the table was just filled in based on what people most commonly think the element for charm is.

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Why are you so quick to question everything, lol? If the information was wrong you wouldn't be able to pass the quiz using it.

Most status effects don't have it explicitly stated anywhere in the game what element they're associated with; this is something that players have figured out over the years. Mobs that resist a certain element also have higher resist status effects associated with a certain element.

bgwiki notes that charm probably depends on magic accuracy (specifically, light magic accuracy). There are day/weather penalties for magic accuracy just as there are for damage, and they can be similarly forced with Obis.

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Originally Posted by Ulth

"The exact impact of Light Staff/Iridal Staff or Apollo's Staff/Chatoyant Staff on Charm is unknown, but they are believed to increase Charm rate by 10% and 15% respectively."

Words like unknown and believed make a strong case for charm being light based.

I'm not trying to dispute that CHR is associated with light. And as I pointed out from the bgwiki people don't actually have proof that light staff does anything for charm. For all you know trying to charm on darksday and failing is just confirmation biases.

As for your logic, charm does not equal love. If you are charmed by something you don't actually love it, you just think you love it. Typically this is done by things that are youthful and beautiful, and personally I associate youth and beauty with water. The fountain of youth for example.

As for more logic as to why charm might be water based a lot of the mobs that use charm moves are water monsters like Lamiae, Poroggo, and Orobon.

With items there are two that give resist charm and have elemental resistance on them. One is the Wuji Ring, it gives resist charm and resist light, however it also gives resist dark and resist sleep. By my best guess the resisting light and dark has more to do with resisting sleep. The other item is M. No.17's Locket which gives resist charm and resist water.

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"Charm does not equal love."

When the CHARM job ability is used, a long chain of PINK LOVE HEARTS goes between you and the mob. Also it is simple logic, if the person/mob loves you they will follow you blindly as a pet and they will die for you. They wouldn't die for you if they only quite liked you a little bit.

I played BST main job from Summer 2004 to late 2006, when I changed to PUP. During those 2+ years when I played BST every single day, I totally noticed the difference when charming mobs on Darksday. My LS was all BST, until PUP arrived and many of us changed to PUP. All the BST on my LS reported the same thing about Darksday. Other BST who were not on my LS have said the same thing too.

When I didn't use my lightstaff, my charm failed way more often. I tried this while meleeing with CHR axes and trying to charm same time, it never had the same success rate as using lightstaff.

I used to arrive for LS events and I would often be Weakened and level 74 lol. My LS friends would say stuff like "didn't you used to be level 75?" and we would all laugh. Ot they would just simply say "Darksday?" And everyone knew what this meant, that I'd had multiple mis-charm deaths on Darksday.

I have no proof, only my extensive empirical evidence. I submit my scars and bruises and gruesome injuries that I sustained while charming pets for years on Darksday, as my evidence. I will also say that even now, ten years later, I can't look at the little black Darksday icon on the screen without flinching and turning pale.

Merrow are aquatic, and the merrow zone is an aqua zone. That is why this neck has water def. The resist charm on it is because that species use 'belly dance' charm. It is a specific item relating to a specific species and area.:p

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Originally Posted by Ulth

Yeah, and I was giving information to refute his. Black mages' attribute for spells is INT, but that doesn't make all their elemental spells ice based. Also I like the information in the link

"The exact impact of Light Staff/Iridal Staff or Apollo's Staff/Chatoyant Staff on Charm is unknown, but they are believed to increase Charm rate by 10% and 15% respectively."

Words like unknown and believed make a strong case for charm being light based.

I'm not trying to dispute that CHR is associated with light. And as I pointed out from the bgwiki people don't actually have proof that light staff does anything for charm.
This is actually interesting. I have a suspicion that the table was just filled in based on what people most commonly think the element for charm is. It seems like a good way to determine what element charm actually is though. A person would just have to keep failing until he does ask about charm then answer to see if they get it right.

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By the exact impact they mean how much does it increase. The fact that it does increase is highly documented even if you don't count the countless testimonials of bsts from back in the day but testing of exact rates not as much. Iirc over on allahkazam there was testing using gauge since that gives an accurate magic hit rate (though it is a range) which was used to determine a few things about macc of charm. On top of that any Run who tanks anything with charm can tell you what a difference Tenebrae pflug will make. The difference is stark enough where there is no way it's eyeballing error

I agree that RUN is a bit underrated on its actual durability. I've been trying to tank during events on it more so I can better speak to its actual strength. However I do feel it is still rough and needs some smoothing out.

Lack of Mitigating Physical Damage Gear Choices: It's hard for a RUN to max out PDT than it is for PLD to max PDT and MDT. Before Adoulin gear you could do that on Paladin. Even at 109 reforged artifact gear you could do that on PLD. RUN lacks the amount of PDT that PLD has access to. It takes some combination of perfect Skirmish gear augments, 119 drops, or items like Defending Ring to do so. While serious RUNs are going to be able to do this, it puts a distance for anyone trying to work their way up on RUN. They could use access to more options for tanking gear. Evasion works but isn't as effective as what it use to be when Ninja use to stockpile it because monsters have such huge amounts of Accuracy now.

Support Job Reliance for Survivability: While yes this game is about having correct support jobs for content, it should ultimately come down to further bolstering traits you want, not be your primary source. I had this issue with Summoner when it was only invited primarily to be a healer in parties because their main job abilities were more supplemental than the main reason you brought them along. There was a dev post awhile back stating their vision was for RUN to use /SAM and /NIN support jobs to mitigate damage. That's fine of it being another source of survivability but not the primary source. Sure we have Battuta and Swordplay, but I feel it doesn't fill the gap entirely on main job survivability. Meaning that we have to heavily rely on Utsusemi, Seigan/Third Eye, or Cocoon to effectively tank at all. The job needs some more native ability to mitigate physical damage and/or recover from it.

Buff Juggling and TP Gain: RUN has a very "Red Mage" style of tanking which I think is fine and I like the whole magic tank using magic to defend itself. However between recasting runes, using JA's for said runes, barspells, stoneskin, phalanx, crusade, spikes (if useful), refresh, regen and possibly whatever sub job defensive spells like Utsusemi and Cocoon. You're constantly in magic and job ability lock, making it really hard to TP and even more of a requirement to have a Ranger or Thief there to immediately assist. While yes you could have your support recast some of this stuff on you, PLD just doesn't have to juggle that many buffs. Not only that but Shield Mastery IV puts them around 60TP per shield proc. Which a PLD will see a lot more than RUN will Tactical Parry proc at 40TP.

This isn't counting +proc rate skills because PLD has more of those than RUN has too. I'd like to see Reprisal given to RUN and have it affect Parry rate with a 2 handed weapon. This will indirectly affect PLD with a Staff/Great Sword, but I say that's fine because even if that was remotely still useful (which it obviously isn't) it wouldn't break anything. RUN needs something along the lines of Composure or natural abilities that last long enough that it's not necessary to spend so much time casting.

If you need to add a parry+ spell, I don't think there's any need to re-purpose Reprisal for it. You'd just make it a new spell. Or add it to Foil.

Or they could just make Foil's eva+ count for normal attacks as well as WS. Instant evasion tanking viability.

They could do either, I was just thinking of it from a standpoint of what's the easiest thing to do which is add it to something existing. Foil could be extended but it makes more sense for Reprisal to work on blocking than for Foil suddenly to. Going on what the abilities do versus their actual names.

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Originally Posted by Stompa

OK.

"Charm does not equal love."

When the CHARM job ability is used, a long chain of PINK LOVE HEARTS goes from you to the mob. Also it is simple logic, if the person/mob loves you they will follow you blindly as a pet and they will die for you. They wouldn't die for you if they only quite liked you a little bit.

I played BST main job from Summer 2004 to late 2006, when I changed to PUP. During those 2+ years when I played BST every single day in the old hardmode charm everything solo-to-75 and solo-merits, I totally noticed the difference on charming mobs on Darksday. My LS was all BST, until PUP arrived and many of us changed to PUP. All the BST on my LS reported the same thing about Darksday.

When I didn't use my lightstaff, my charm failed way more often. I tried this while meleeing with CHR axes and trying to charm same time, it never had the same success rate as using lightstaff.

I used to arrive for LS events and I would be Weakened and level 74 lol. My LS friends would say stuff like "didn't you used to be level 75?" and we would all laugh, and they would look at my weakened level 74 @$$, and simply say "Darksday?" . And everyone knew they meant that I'd had multiple mis-charm deaths on Darksday.

Merrow are aquatic, and the merrow zone is an aqua zone. That is why it has water def. The resist charm is because that species use 'belly dance' charm. It is a specific item relating to a specific species and area.:p

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Oh wow anecdotal evidence about how you and the other people playing BST in your LS had the same opinion. Did any of you record the number of times charm failed and succeeded on darksday, lightsday, and a thrid day as a control to come to this conclusion?

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Originally Posted by dasva

By the exact impact they mean how much does it increase. The fact that it does increase is highly documented even if you don't count the countless testimonials of bsts from back in the day but testing of exact rates not as much. Iirc over on allahkazam there was testing using gauge since that gives an accurate magic hit rate (though it is a range) which was used to determine a few things about macc of charm. On top of that any Run who tanks anything with charm can tell you what a difference Tenebrae pflug will make. The difference is stark enough where there is no way it's eyeballing error

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As a matter of fact I do not count testimonials from back in the day as fact. And for it being a highly documented fact I can't find much documentation of it being fact other than people just saying it's fact. I also tried to find the tests with gauge you mentioned, but only found this thread from the BG forums.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/572...Magic-Accuracy

From what I can conclude from their testing is that either Apollo staff and magic accuracy don't affect charm, or that gauge doesn't take them into account.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I'm sure it's been properly tested enough times for it not to be 'confirmation bias.' that's not something BG has really been prone to. Information that isn't solidly proven tends to get removed, even if it's not necessarily wrong.

Why are you so quick to question everything, lol? If the information was wrong you wouldn't be able to pass the quiz using it.

Most status effects don't have it explicitly stated anywhere in the game what element they're associated with; this is something that players have figured out over the years. Mobs that resist a certain element also have higher resist status effects associated with a certain element.

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BG didn't say anything about failing on darksday. Stompa said that. How they answer my rhetorical question will let you know if it's confirmation biases or not.

People could still pass the quiz even without knowing the right answer to what element charm is because it only asked about one status, so provided it can ask about any on the list you only have a 1/23 chance of running into it.

I know status don't have their element stated out all the time. For example, I for one would really like to know if and what the element for HP down is. I also am very aware that certain monsters are resistant to certain elements. Like how slimes are resistant to water. Which makes this line from the BGwiki charm page very interesting.

"Some families of mobs have a stronger resistance to Charm than others. Most notably Slimes"

As for me questioning, that might be the most insulting thing I have ever heard. It's like saying "How dare you think for yourself and not believe everything I tell you!" I asked for empirical evidence and was met with the equivalent of "I know a guy, who knows a guy, who says it's true."

I understand I don't have proof either, but I certainly have enough to support my hypothesis and warrant some actual testing. I even suggested a way to test it, though from looking at the edit history of the quest I have my doubts charm might even be asked.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Le...?oldid=1455839
At this point charm was not one of the status listed.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Le...?oldid=1458088
Then the next change someone who had made no previous changes to the quest page changed it to include charm.

They could be right, they could be wrong. The person who made a change to the charm status effect page could be right or wrong too. This is why people should ask questions. To find out what is right. Some testing will be involved unless a community rep wants to magically appear and tell us straight from the developers mouth what status is what.

You're right I think they were doing gauge for other things been a long time since I read alla.... here ya go

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.htm...6&h=50&p=6#280

Hmm, Well I see dasva managed to find some decent testing before I posted. Well, that renders my post more or less irrelevant, but I guess I'll post it anyway.

Oh, and someone go nuke that derpy charm wiki page and link that testing to your edit.
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I wouldn't blame anyone for questioning the current community knowledge base, this is part of how we correct old errors and learn new things, however...

Anecdotal evidence >>> No evidence. You're basing your stance off a single relatively recent wiki edit by some unknown wiki'er. No source. no citations. no testimonials. no nothing.

Now, do I have some indepth charm element testing handy? Nope. I suspect with enough digging into some really old BST posts, we might find some. But why would anyone? It's been known and accepted in general by the gaming community for years.

As the one proposing that the current accepted element for charm is in error, the burden of proof is on you. So if you want any of the rest of us to change our potentially erroneous ways then get out there and create that test data you want.

This whole argument is silly. Ulth is jsut casting doubt for the sake of casting doubt. While even I demand evidence to support conclusions, charm isn't a new thing in this game, people have had plenty of time to observe how it works. It's not like there isn't any in game material including dialogue, various equipment, ability icon colors that supports what's being said in here, along with a plethora of available targets and methods to determine what influences charm success rate.

Kind of hilarious how a thread about making tank jobs tank better turned into a debate on whether or not charm is light based.

As far as links between elements and core attributes, PUP, WHM RDM and GEO make (Most of) these associations explicitly clear:

Fire maneuver increases the automaton's STR; Boost/Gain-STR and geo/indi-STR are fire element
Wind increases AGI; Boost/gain AGI and geo/indi AGI are wind element
Thunder " DEX; " " DEX are Thunder element
Water " MND; " " MND are Water element
Ice " INT; " " MND are Ice element
Earth " VIT; " " VIT are Earth element
Light maneuver increases CHR, HP with appropriate attachment; " " CHR are Light element
(Here is where it's slightly cloudier)
Dark maneuver increases MP with appropriate attachment. MP is the only core stat the dark element is ever really associated with, with dark element equipment typically having MP where light element equipment typically has HP on it (but both HP and MP recovery can be either dark or light depending on the school of magic the spell comes from)

Yeeaah. I think that was kinda my fault. But well, the op wasn't really that interesting, and when I see misinformation I try to correct it.

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Originally Posted by Stompa

You also said ;



So, people using the charm ability for years, and noticing that it fails a lot on Darksday, is somehow less scientific than your "I associate youth and beauty with water" claim that charm and affection are somehow water related.

I associate water with lots of things, including tidal waves, floods, drowning etc. lol
:p

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Thanks for taking what I said out of context, that is very mature of you. No it's not as scientific as "Me and all my friends agree", but is just as scientific of the transitive properties of charm = love, love = light, therefore charm = light. You know the thing I was responding to at the time.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

This whole argument is silly. Ulth is jsut casting doubt for the sake of casting doubt. While even I demand evidence to support conclusions, charm isn't a new thing in this game, people have had plenty of time to observe how it works. It's not like there isn't any in game material including dialogue, various equipment, ability icon colors that supports what's being said in here, along with a plethora of available targets and methods to determine what influences charm success rate.

Kind of hilarious how a thread about making tank jobs tank better turned into a debate on whether or not charm is light based.

As far as links between elements and core attributes, PUP, WHM RDM and GEO make (Most of) these associations explicitly clear:

Fire maneuver increases the automaton's STR; Boost/Gain-STR and geo/indi-STR are fire element
Wind increases AGI; Boost/gain AGI and geo/indi AGI are wind element
Thunder " DEX; " " DEX are Thunder element
Water " MND; " " MND are Water element
Ice " INT; " " MND are Ice element
Earth " VIT; " " VIT are Earth element
Light maneuver increases CHR, HP with appropriate attachment; " " CHR are Light element
(Here is where it's slightly cloudier)
Dark maneuver increases MP with appropriate attachment. MP is the only core stat the dark element is ever really associated with, with dark element equipment typically having MP where light element equipment typically has HP on it (but both HP and MP recovery can be either dark or light depending on the school of magic the spell comes from)

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Thank you for trivializing my concern that the player base might be wrong about something, (not like that has ever happened before, am I right?)

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Originally Posted by dasva

You're right I think they were doing gauge for other things been a long time since I read alla.... here ya go

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.htm...6&h=50&p=6#280

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Thanks for that link. It was an interesting read, and also the only thanks I wasn't sarcastic about.

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Originally Posted by Martel

Hmm, Well I see dasva managed to find some decent testing before I posted. Well, that renders my post more or less irrelevant, but I guess I'll post it anyway.

Oh, and someone go nuke that derpy charm wiki page and link that testing to your edit.
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I wouldn't blame anyone for questioning the current community knowledge base, this is part of how we correct old errors and learn new things, however...

Anecdotal evidence >>> No evidence. You're basing your stance off a single relatively recent wiki edit by some unknown wiki'er. No source. no citations. no testimonials. no nothing.

Now, do I have some indepth charm element testing handy? Nope. I suspect with enough digging into some really old BST posts, we might find some. But why would anyone? It's been known and accepted in general by the gaming community for years.

As the one proposing that the current accepted element for charm is in error, the burden of proof is on you. So if you want any of the rest of us to change our potentially erroneous ways then get out there and create that test data you want.

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Well I was going to try and do some testing, but after 20 minutes or so of Dom Juan not using Frog Song on me I have come to the conclusion that it would take more time than I am willing to put in to get a large enough sample size. So I give up. I don't care. If no one else is interested in finding out if the world is round or not why should I.

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Originally Posted by Ulth

Well I was going to try and do some testing, but after 20 minutes or so of Dom Juan not using Frog Song on me I have come to the conclusion that it would take more time than I am willing to put in to get a large enough sample size. So I give up. I don't care. If no one else is interested in finding out if the world is round or not why should I.

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Well, the rest of us were pretty sure about it in any case. Which dasva later vindicated.

But I actually went out to go do some testing as well. Seeing as I don't have BST, I went to try resisting charm on RUN. I've had the experience of resisting charm reliably on Hyoscya(yorcia delve T5), but... it'd take a painfully long time to get good sample sizes from that.

So, I went to the most charm spammy NM in existence. The All-seeing Onyx eye. It spams a gaze version of charm about every 5 seconds. Figured I could rack up data pretty fast. So I thought....

No matter how high I stacked up the magic evasion and light/water resist, I could NOT get a full resist at all. Lvl 75 era NM, and I couldn't resist it with +331 light resist(451 water), +381 magic evasion, AND an Idris GEO's Attunement+Vex....

I came to the conclusion that the damn thing didn't have a resist check. Probably cause you can avoid it just by turning around. Went to the other NM in the same zone that also charms, if far less frequently. Repeat the above paragraph. lol. /sigh

I shoulda just gone to Hyoscya. I can reliably resist the charm from level 128(I think?) content, but 75 era NMs are unresistable?

So anyway. After blowing ~2 hours for 0 results. I came to basically the same conclusion as you, and quit. Then wrote up the post you quoted, saw dasva's post, and figured, case closed.

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Thank you for trivializing my concern that the player base might be wrong about something

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I"m concerned that you're concerned about the possibility of the playerbase being wrong about something so trivial.

Of course, the playerbase, or at least that which the respondents on this forum represent, are not wrong here, for sure at least regarding BST charm. If you're so concerned about it, why not do some scientific testing of your own, since you're accusing everyone of confirmation bias and eyeballing while offering no real proof of your own that your position is correct? Of course, in the same post you said you weren't willing to put forth the effort- which basically concludes this discussion since you're unable to effectively make your case.

(Note that much of what was discussed was actually about beastmaster charm- and based on the comments above, i'm probably most inclined to believe that it depends entirely on the mob and in at least some cases, probably explicit "resist charm' or "resist all status ailments" are the only things that will help).

@ above poster, if you want a mob that spams charm which you can easily resist, the silver sea remnants I salvage boss does a single target charm ability that it spams until it hits at least one person with it- it fails a lot just by having high magic evasion.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

@ above poster, if you want a mob that spams charm which you can easily resist, the silver sea remnants I salvage boss does a single target charm ability that it spams until it hits at least one person with it- it fails a lot just by having high magic evasion.

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I'm aware of the mob and it's tendencies. But I wasn't going to waste a salvage run on it. And since dasva already posted a link to good testing indicating that charm is light based, I don't see any reason to mess with it anymore. I was just putting it out there that I did try to gather some data. If ineffectively.

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Originally Posted by Martel

I'm aware of the mob and it's tendencies. But I wasn't going to waste a salvage run on it. And since dasva already posted a link to good testing indicating that charm is light based, I don't see any reason to mess with it anymore. I was just putting it out there that I did try to gather some data. If ineffectively.

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Eh, its not that bad, for salvage 1, its one of the best alex droppers. If you're lucky enough to get the bag from the boss, its up there with the other good runs. But you have a fair point.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I"m concerned that you're concerned about the possibility of the playerbase being wrong about something so trivial.

Of course, the playerbase, or at least that which the respondents on this forum represent, are not wrong here, for sure at least regarding BST charm. If you're so concerned about it, why not do some scientific testing of your own, since you're accusing everyone of confirmation bias and eyeballing while offering no real proof of your own that your position is correct? Of course, in the same post you said you weren't willing to put forth the effort- which basically concludes this discussion since you're unable to effectively make your case.

(Note that much of what was discussed was actually about beastmaster charm- and based on the comments above, i'm probably most inclined to believe that it depends entirely on the mob and in at least some cases, probably explicit "resist charm' or "resist all status ailments" are the only things that will help).

@ above poster, if you want a mob that spams charm which you can easily resist, the silver sea remnants I salvage boss does a single target charm ability that it spams until it hits at least one person with it- it fails a lot just by having high magic evasion.

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What this originally was about was which rune Rune Fencers should use in order to resist charm. You are the one who brought up beast master.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Also, charm is indeed light based, the player charm is determined by charisma which is the stat associated with the light element.

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I don't actually care if a level 75 bst should use light staff or not. I don't play bst, and don't plan to in the future. Even if I did from what I gather charm is obsolete and replaced with jug pets. The people conducting the light staff test in the link even joked about how charm testing only took place long after it was useful.

What does matter is that there are mobs in current content that use charm. It would be nice to know what runes to use to not get hit by charm.

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You are the one who brought up beast master.

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No, I'm not the one who brought that up. Go back and read the thread.

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It would be nice to know what runes to use to not get hit by charm.

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Then I suggest you go by what was specifically written on the wiki and see how that works for you. If you try it and test it and it does nothing, you can come back and laugh in all our faces going HA HA UR WRONG HA HA all day long. Til then, stop acting like everyone has to be wrong because... no reason other than they must be wrong! You're the first person i've ever seen in the game or on any forum to suggest that charm is anything other than light based.

Every rule has exceptions, there are the occasional nm or other thing that inflicts a status with an ability of a different element than is typical. Some might even be non-elemental, and the only thing that might work is a specific resistance to the status effect or an item that gives resistance to all bad statuses. But at least as far as the charm status as it can be inflicted by a player, all the sources of it are light based (BST ability, and Maiden's Virelai BRD song)

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No, I'm not the one who brought that up. Go back and read the thread.

Then I suggest you go by what was specifically written on the wiki and see how that works for you. If you try it and test it and it does nothing, you can come back and laugh in all our faces going HA HA UR WRONG HA HA all day long. Til then, stop acting like everyone has to be wrong because... no reason other than they must be wrong! You're the first person i've ever seen in the game or on any forum to suggest that charm is anything other than light based.

Every rule has exceptions, there are the occasional nm or other thing that inflicts a status with an ability of a different element than is typical. Some might even be non-elemental, and the only thing that might work is a specific resistance to the status effect or an item that gives resistance to all bad statuses. But at least as far as the charm status as it can be inflicted by a player, all the sources of it are light based (BST ability, and Maiden's Virelai BRD song)

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Go by what was specifically written on the wiki? That's what got me into this mess. I'm not the one who changed the ffxiclopedia page over a year ago. The BGwiki page for the charm status effect is a stub, and the pages for Nerrivik and Hyoscya don't list elements for their charm either.

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Originally Posted by Ulth

Go by what was specifically written on the wiki? That's what got me into this mess. I'm not the one who changed the ffxiclopedia page over a year ago. The BGwiki page for the charm status effect is a stub, and the pages for Nerrivik and Hyoscya don't list elements for their charm either.

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Have you done the RUN AF quest that I mentioned? I'm pretty sure you can go back and re-do the CS at a BRD in that zone. Why not just Replay it until you find out the answer to that specific question, but I'm pretty sure it's listed their because someone had to answer the question originally.

But on other testable things, The SCH ability Stormsurge bestows bonuses based on the the storm spell cast. The Aurorastorm giving a boost to CHR, which has been stated by NPC in game that CHR improves Charm/BRD Song ACC through transitive property, Charm should also be Light, but not that anyone is tallying

Charm is light based.

The community knows this.

If you don't want to believe it, you don't have to. Believe whatever you want. End of story.

God, I can't believe this thread turned into a guy arguing what element charm was because he was so mad other people didn't agree with him.

Please tell me this is a joke nin and run are fine yes not as kick butt as us plds but I have seen nins tank just fine and in incursion for a matter of fact and runs just add to it. as a back up tank i will forever take a run or nin if i cant get a pld. If nins and runs know how to play the class they are in many ways better then us plds. But that is only if they know like we used to say that they know the job.

so the fact that you are saying that nin and run need this big of an update look at it again. Yes nin and run do need updates but I think this would make them way to over powered.