Now Corsair is the only non-mage (plus BRD) which doesn't have an A or better combat skill. Would it really break the game that much to bump our Marksmanship skill to an A?
It would really help out with the higher content levels, and it would be balanced by the fact that we can't mitigate hate as well as RNG. Also by the fact that we still get inferior bullets.
[dev1235]: An Insult to COR.
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10-01-2014, 09:02 PMSuteru[dev1235]: An Insult to COR.
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10-03-2014, 04:48 AMAfaniaBRD is mage cuz BRD has access to majority of the mage gears.Quote:
Originally Posted by Suteru
RDM is also mage cuz RDM has access to majority of the mage gears as well.
COR only has access to DD gears, can't play as a mage effectively without mage gears, can't be a full time buff job since the buffs aren't as potent as GEO and BRD, and yet SE doesn't want COR to DD by not raising skill cap higher.
Exactly what'd SE want the job to be? -
10-03-2014, 05:37 AMBebekekeCOR's buffs are % based, and unless I'm missing something, there's no cap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
So, most DDs are equipping about 100 attack before other buffs (which keeps the numbers easy).
So a 11 roll on chaos without a DRK in party, or Commodore Tricone proc will give +350 attack (450 with). I don't think that's even possible with 5 Minuets and G Horn (outside of SV). -
10-03-2014, 10:51 PMAfaniaAh you don't get what I mean, the buff potency is based on the efficiency of pt setup, not the amount of attack you gain. A DD pt needs WHM, and occasionally needs a stunner/PD job, which leaves maximum of 2 slot for a buff job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bebekeke
BRD can march, which makes BRD a more potent buff job for the DD. There's little you can do with 450 attack if DDs can't swing faster, you still need a BRD or GEO to haste regardless of what you do, so one of the buff job slot is gone.
If you use GEO+RDM for haste, 2 of the buff job slots are gone. There's just no way COR can compete with GEO and BRD as the priority buff job, GEO or BRD always comes first, extra 400+ attack comes 2nd.
Oh and btw, none ergon GEO can also do 45% attack with avg gear if I remember correctly(I may be wrong about this), while COR's avg chaos number is only around 40%, No.11+ DRK roll proc(+56%) rarely happen. GEO can do higher avg attack boost AND haste or def down, while COR's 2nd buff has to stick with DA or SAM roll.
The point is that, the fact that COR can't do haste buff means it'll always compete with other DDs for DD spot, if COR's dmg output isn't high enough to compensate weaker buffs, it's not going to be worth bringing. -
10-04-2014, 02:36 AMSuteru
Not to mention GEO getting a third buff/debuff before COR gets their third roll.
I guess SE just forgot we existed. -
10-06-2014, 01:28 AMAfaniaI really don't mind GEO buff gets more potent, as long as COR gets output increase it'd be enough to worth a spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Suteru
But COR isn't getting anything :( -
01-20-2015, 01:57 AMMarada
They are trying to hard to keep cor in it's natural state of not being full DD but not being a full buffer, the problem is, there are very few situations where you would need someone that can do both, but neither at 100%.
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01-20-2015, 05:38 AMdasvaBut here's the thing... you don't need 2 dedicated haste jobs. brd or geo can cap magic haste on their own so there is no need to use both or one and a rdm for haste 2. If you are bringing in rdm it's for other reasons like using it to stun or possibly debuff or heal in place of the whm since whm isn't always needed. Bam a place for cor. And then there are the 1 sam 5 support pts that go on thanks to the skillchain updateQuote:
Originally Posted by Afania
As far as amounts I think the geo one is about right (though def down would probably be better use of geo). While the full boost will yes not be common I'd say calling 40 avg is a bit low. I'd say 40 is the min for a decent cor. A decent cor should be getting lucky or 11. Not really sure your point on the choices of 2nd buffs... but I suspect misers would outdo sam in ionis areas now. Also cor can without sacrificing a buff increase the def down on a mob (or slow or paralyze etc) and increase magic dmg it takes... and speaking of magic dmg 3000tp leaden salute is the strongest magical dmg source in the game right now
Cor doesn't have to compete for a dd it has to compete for the 2nd buff slot. Or 3rd, 4th in those kind of pts -
02-22-2015, 01:59 AMAfaniaDasva I don't think you get my point at all, and I think you're overestimating COR's usefulness(compare with GEO and BRD) in a situation that they can't DD. My point was, if COR can't do enough dmg, then it'll stay as a mule job forever. I highly doubt the reason why ppl bring COR for 1 DD 5 support setup is because allies roll do more dmg than 2nd SAM anyways. Most ppl probably bring COR in such setup so they can have their COR mule roll and afk, and not needing to have 2 DD spread out. Otherwise 2 SAM soloing 2 different NM probably generates more output than 1 SAM and 1 COR. Feel free to prove me wrong though.Quote:
Originally Posted by dasva
Don't really need to brought up 3000 TP leaden salute as an example. 3000 TP leaden salute is 1 trick pony, it's either extremely strong on right target with right buffs, or nearly useless. Just that isn't enough to make DD COR useful in higher lv content. The entire point of this discussion is that COR needs higher combat skill for higher lv content. -
02-22-2015, 04:39 AMdasva
It's not that I don't get that point it's that I'm saying the world isn't over cors don't need a haste roll to have a pt slot. Yeah is just buffing boring? Sure welcome to every buffing job.
Want to be less bored DD some. You don't have to top parses to contribute especially when you are already contributing without doing any -
02-22-2015, 06:09 AMHoshi
What situation exists where COR can't DD? I have yet to encounter content where I'm unable to contribute dmg wise. The only content I could see where COR doesn't contribute much dmg is a zerg fight. COR gets destroyed on the parse in a zerg.
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02-22-2015, 07:13 AMAfaniaI wasn't asking for a haste roll though, I was asking for higher skill rating for higher lv content, which is what this discussion's about. I didn't say a thing about buffing is boring(I've COR/WHM for years in endgame when it's necessary with 0 complain). You sure enjoy putting words in other ppl's mouth.Quote:
Originally Posted by dasva
I wasn't asking to top the parse either, but in certain situations, the gap between COR and a real DD is simply too great to worth a pt spot. Especially when you can just get a mule and buff outside of BC.
I don't understand, we're not asking to top the parse, we're not asking for haste roll, we're only asking for a skill buff to close the gap with other light armor DDs, I'm not asking for an A+ skill, just A- or even B+ in marksmanship is good enough IMO.
I'm well aware that you can contribute without having to top the parse, that doesn't mean there are no better alternative for this particular pt spot. In most of the situations that I know of, GEO is a better alternative than COR, and having COR buff outside of BC before enter is also a better alternative. IMO that needs a fix, and the best way to fix it is to increase the output unless SE can give COR game changing unique buffs.
Is asking for a skill buff for a light armor job affect the game balance THAT much? If you insist COR is a buff only job, fine. Where's the mage/support gears for this job? Compare with GEO and BRD, we're just not as effective for support.
Personally, if I have a choice to invite all the best GEO BRD COR SAM, I see myself inviting Idris GEO or 4 song BRD with Ghorn over mythic COR in most of the endgame setup. I'd get Koga SAM for any extra spot and have the SAM engage different target. Unless I'm doing skirmish, I see very little reason to use a COR over another equally geared SAM GEO BRD.....buff mule outside of BC doesn't count.
The situation that COR may not be effective is mostly in higher lv content....certain VD battle field and higher lv incursion megaboss. Melee accuracy is noticeably lower , leaden salute/wildfire gets resist alot, last stand won't land very well without prelude(if we get melee acc song we can't get prelude).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoshi
In situation like this, it's probably better to change job to something else. Although I haven't done endgame since 1h WS update, so I'm not sure if stronger 1h WS fixed this issue or not. -
02-22-2015, 07:26 AMHoshi
Incursion 133 is no problem on COR. Yes elemental ws get resisted but if all else fails evis is great. Furthermore coming /dnc you give the party a huge boost with steps and haste samba. For melee VD fights I haven't had trouble on COR. I agree that in situations where you have to shoot things get a bit unpleasant. Arks are problematic at any level because COR can't effectively deal damage while mitigating hate like a RNG and on the VD version r acc does suffer a bit.
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02-22-2015, 07:42 AMAfaniaQuote:
Originally Posted by Hoshi
/DNC barely make up the dmg gap since BRD and GEO can do the same. Haste samba also isn't a "huge boost" IMO. If you're limiting your party size in an incursion pt, then BRD and GEO is usually a more popular choice in incursion, you may as well just have them /DNC. Before I quit, the popular low man incursion setup on my server was usually SAM THF WHM BRD GEO stunner. I don't see how changing any of the job in the above setup to COR can lead to better performance, feel free to tell me I'm wrong though. -
02-22-2015, 08:43 AMHoshi
Perhaps it depends on the situation. We spam lv 133 gramk runs only. We average 10 min per run. Our setup is geo, brd, cor, thfx2, whm in pt1 and geox3, rdmx2, sch for pt 2 (and really everything but the 2 stunners and the 1 sleeper is negligible in that pt). With haste samba + haste 2, the bard is able to drop 1 march in favor of a different buff. Evasion and defense down steps are a huge buff. Also considering the amount of acc gear available to a cor if the geo is coming close to you on the parse you're doing something very wrong. Yes the bard is going to outparse you since they have access to rudra's which is broken (plus the way aftermath works a bard benefits far more from am3 than a melee cor does), but the bard shouldn't outparse the cor by much. Cor buffs are unique and indispensable. We favor allies and sam currently but if the adherents have high mdb switch to fighters and sam.
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02-22-2015, 04:09 PMAfaniaI haven't done endgame since 1h WS update, if what you said about rudra is true then IMO it's full of wrong in terms of game balance lol. I know COR buffs are unique, but unique is not the same as useful. Certain roll such as fighter is also fairly useless if you go with mythic DD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoshi
How much SC dmg can your pt do compare with white damage? And how much dmg you do on COR v.s your main DD in the pt?
Even if half of your pt dmg came from SC, allies roll is only 17.5% increase in total dmg. No.11= 35%, 35%/2= 17.5%.
According to the spreading sheet I've checked long time ago, avg SAM roll is about 5% increase to SAM.
So that makes it 22.5% increase per DD IF SC dmg is equal to half of white dmg. If SC dmg is lower than half of white dmg, or if you didn't hit a No.11 on allies roll, it's even less dmg increase per DD. In a situation that you have 2 DD in the pt, that's 45% increase in dmg by sacrificing 1 pt spot. A COR needs to do more than 55% of another DD's dmg with evi to worth a spot, without access to melee mythic AM3 when THF SAM both has, AND less multi attack in TP set thanks to lower acc. I don't have parse data with buffed evi, so feel free to prove me wrong if you can provide parse data. I just find it incredibly hard to more than 55% of SAM and THF using evi + Sabebus when SAMs and THFs are rocking mythic AM3 and superior WS PLUS higher skill lv. 55% is also the bare minimum of dmg required. If you can't get a good roll or if the SC dmg isn't doing much, COR needs to do a lot more than 55% of another DD. -
02-22-2015, 05:11 PMHoshi
You've left out a few factors: please add in the -13% def from box step, the -24 evasion from stutter step, the extra madrigal or minuet from haste samba, the extra -5% def from light shot, and the extra damage gained from a well placed random deal. Also on unresisted skillchains, I suspect that more than half of your damage comes from skillchain. Leaden Salute -> Rudra's -> Rudra's will net you darkness and double darkness. LS is meh but the first Rudra's will do somewhere between 12k and 20k dmg plus the darkness, and the second Rudra's will do similar to the first with double darkness. I'm not a thf in incursion so I really can't tell you what their exact numbers look like but double darkness skillchain tears the heck out of stuff as long as there's no MDB adherent.
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02-22-2015, 05:26 PMdasva
You give very nice strong buffs and deal a little dmg if you want but wont be able to compete with real DDs I fail to see why this is a problem or why you'd even compare yourself to other DDs. And have you seen what you can do with leaden salute? It's the strongest magical ws and if you buff/debuff for them good magical ws are beastly and make these rudra's seem not that OP
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02-22-2015, 07:50 PMAfaniaAs previously mentioned, the advantage of box step isn't COR only, BRD/DNC or GEO/DNC can do the same, the only difference being(probably) they have lower melee acc, thus they reach cap slower. It is not necessary to invite a COR just for steps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoshi
As for the SC dmg part, I haven't seen any parse data, so no comment on whether it's 50% of pt dmg or not. THFs also has white dmg, there's also a risk of missed stun causing amnesia, causing SC dmg goes lower in a parse. I know how strong Rudra double darks are, I even asked for a nerf on the forum because it's too OP. I just want to confirm whether SC dmg worth 50% in an incursion pt or not.
Btw, leaden salute>rudra>rudra double dark is barely a COR only advantage, it's probably not even a good idea to use it in incursion as a SC opener. Leaden salute is gravitation, which can create dark with distortion. Evisceration is also gravitation, so Evis>rudra>rudra should have the same result with better dmg, and BRD can do it too. In the end, you can probably skip COR completely and replace it with another DD or just don't bring it, and it won't make too much difference.
I think you still missed the point completely. We're not talking about the situation that leaden salute shines, we're talking about a situation that we'd need accuracy and leaden salute doesn't work. I'm not sure why'd you keep bringing leaden salute up in this discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by dasva
The reason why I sound like COR is competing with another DD is because in FFXI, every single job is competing with another job for a pt spot. That's why certain job gets invite and some jobs don't. If a job is a DD, then you're comparing the dmg. If the job is not DD, then you're comparing the utility. In the case of COR, none of the buffs are game changing enough to a point that you must invite them, and most of the useful ones are there to improve pt damage. If you're not comparing the extra dmg of this job brings, how else can you convince everyone that COR is worth bringing over another job, such as SAM, THF, WHM, BRD and GEO? I'm sure someone as smart as you can understand the simple fact that every job is competing with another job for a pt spot in an event.
We're asking the job to be able to contribute as much as another job so we don't need to go home and job change to a GEO, SAM, THF or BRD. My experience in incursion was that GEO, SAM, THF, BRD and WHM is slightly more useful than a COR, if BRD and GEO /DNC and play the job right that is. Just because some pt brings COR to incursion, doesn't mean there are no better alternatives.
Btw, I've been defending for COR's usefulness actively on AH/BG for years, I'm not just some random job hater trying to make the job look bad. I just feel the recent rudra buff, skill buff for other jobs and GEO buff made COR in a worse position than how it used to be.
Either way, I'm done. If you guys insist that COR roll is so game changing then go ahead and invite them to incursion or VD battle field. I know I'm probably gonna get an Idris GEO with proper melee set over an equally geared COR for those situations. -
02-23-2015, 02:45 AMHoshi
Speaking as an idris geo, you're going to be very disappointed with your accuracy rate in a 133 incursion. Idris is OP but expecting the geo to contribute much to the parse is nuts. Although maybe with the new alluvion yorcia skirmish gear you can eke out a little more accuracy (at least replace the bokwus acc path pieces) but you will need a substantial acc boost to even get 70% acc.
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02-23-2015, 09:30 AMdasvaOr maybe you are missing the point completely? You're talking about situations where leaden salute doesn't shine. If you don't want to take the effort to make it good that's completely on you. But it's fairly easy to pair yourself along with that geo to make it great. There aren't that many situations where it just wont work at all just might require a bit more work to make it work. As far as accuracy goes you aren't that far behind a rng and with new gear coming up you can get a ton more acc than before. And no you are very rarely competing with every other slot. The whm doesn't compete with the sam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Except you are giving buffs AND dding AND debuffing AND enhancing debuffs so you can't straight up compare dmgs. And as far as buffs go... outside of scherzo they are about as game changing as anything brd brings. Idris Geo is a little too OP for anyone to compete with now but in my experience as you like to say so much geo +cor > geo +brd. And incursion isn't the only event so not sure why that keeps getting brought up as a litmus. And just because your pt brings brds instead doesn't mean there are no better alternatives. :p. Quite frankly every situation is different and it's completely impossible to balance out every job so that every job in every situation is "able to contribute as much as another job "
So your cor isn't the greatest at 1 event oh no that's why the game has different events and job change. I mean what the all the other DDs that you completely ignore? The fact that you aren't even mentioning any of them suggests that they aren't able to contribute as much as the dds you are using. Or that cor is in fact contributing as much as them therefore contributing as much as another job just not the jobs you chose to pick to compare them to -
02-26-2015, 03:09 AMAfaniaI've done indi-malaise/MAB buff/voidstorm for leaden salute setup in yorcia before, but I don't think it's practical in higher lv incursion. If you can make a leaden salute setup pt in higher lv incursion and have pt outperforms super buffed SAM setup, perhaps you can teach me how to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by dasva
Just because I point out it's not the most optimal setup in every situation, doesn't mean I haven't try it.
Are you comparing a job with no accuracy bonus job trait(and B rank skill) v.s a job with accuracy bonus job trait V and higher skill?You're either trolling or your definition of "not far behind" is different from mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by dasva
I don't play RNG, but a quick search on AH shows that gear wise, COR doesn't seem to pull ahead in terms of ranged accuracy either. Most of the racc gears are usable by both jobs, except a few slots. In fact RNG seems to have access to better racc gears, feel free to let me know if I'm wrong though.
It's too late atm so I'm too lazy to find the gears and compare the real racc number, but I feel that RNG should be quite ahead of COR in terms of racc based on job trait and a quick search on AH.
If you look at the fact that most pt takes 1 WHM instead of 2 WHM, then yes. SAM(and other jobs) does compete with WHM for a spot. Why wouldn't you take 2 WHM? Because you only need 1 WHM, the other pt slot can be DD or support to deal more dmg.Quote:
Originally Posted by dasva
Well the importance of BRD dropped a bit with the introduction to new haste spells. But how about GEO+ 2nd SAM killing different target? Assuming GEO is doing the steps, I'm quite certain that COR buffing 1 SAM would do less party dmg than 2 SAM soloing 2 different targets. Also in certain situation GEO x2 may be better than 1 GEO + 1 COR I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by dasva
I didn't ignore them, but this is a COR forum, obviously I don't post WAR DRK BST PUP QQ here. That's why I said you're missing the point completely. This is a "we don't have enough accuracy as a light armor job" discussion, not a "job balance needs change" discussion. There are 100 other discussions in every single forum about the job balance, if we want to talk about other jobs we could just move there.Quote:
Originally Posted by dasva
Every post you've made are basically moving away from the main point by saying something that's completely irrelevant to the discussion. Ok, BRD is less relevant in a pt now, GEO and SAM is OP. Leaden salute is OP with tons of buffs, and so? We still have lower accuracy than other light armor jobs, and that's what Suteru was trying to say. Seems like you just want to argue for the sake of wanting to argue.
If you want to give a good reason why COR shouldn't get an accuracy boost, perhaps you should state your reason, instead of the same old "leaden salute is OP". Guess what, you can't WS very well if you can't hit stuff. Giving COR an accuracy boost, such as B to B+ or A- isn't going to break the game balance, it simply make COR DD better to play the job like how it should be, which is buff + DD hybrid. -
02-26-2015, 08:47 AMdasva
Good job at being done :p
And you say I'm the one arguing to argue lol.
I'd respond to those individually except I know it wont make a difference as you want cor to be 2nd choice buffer while still being good enough DD to compare to other jobs that can't do things like buff in an age when the real problems for dd is the overwhelming advantage of 1 job and another ws that makes pretty much anything else look horrible in comparison unless you build for it and of course wont because then sam can't skillchain all the things so I am done... really -
04-18-2015, 12:58 PMMooserocka
If u want steps and a really good haste samba just invite a dnc.
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04-19-2015, 08:36 AMHoshi
If you want to get stuff done quickly ditch the melee and magic burst to win. Can even still bring a cor to that... dnc not so much.
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04-23-2015, 07:53 PMSandmaste
Att is a much needed buff, and with Chaos roll being % based, the more att we are getting (Im sitting on 1000 att give or take a little depending on sj/Lonis on MNK and SAM add 154ish from RCB thats 1154att), I've seen my att hit the 1800-nearly1900 mark last Tojil run from Chaos roll which makes it a stupidly powerful roll, I can't remember how the +5 ring adds to chaos roll, and I may of had a minuet up I didn't check the brd buffs, but for one roll that does wonders for jobs pdif. Then you add in the STP roll and its just ws-spam with the haste buffs for each DD, inc COR.
I do agree with OP tho, it is a bit of an insult to be a gun job and not have some kind of A rating for our weapon. Like its been said, a tad more racc for COR won't make/break the game, the content we are doing now is a tad harder then killing a Tojil. -
05-27-2015, 04:24 AMGrekumah
Corsair's attributes and role in combat have already been adjusted in a comprehensive way, which includes the support effects they give to party members using Phantom Rolls; therefore, we have no plans to increase their combat skill ratings.
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05-27-2015, 07:12 AMSuteru
Is the 3rd roll still planned at least?
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05-27-2015, 10:20 AMYosemiteYogorockBlondelleWell let you guys lay this out into the mix?
So if we're chatting about the cor job, I wonder how the cor cards could play into the mix or even how should the I-Level cards if added to the game be played out in its abilities?
I dont think cor cards have had touch ups since possibly the aht urhgan expansion pack came out with that pirate>cor job... ??:confused: -
05-28-2015, 09:52 AMAtaraxiaAkihiko Matsui and Grekumah that is being kind of restrictive on Cor. Increase their combat skill rating does not affect game balance at all. At this point cor is Rank Below a SMN, PUP and BST because they can't solo. You can please all the fans by increase their combat skills and give them a 3rd Roll.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grekumah
Future Reference and Changes I like to see.
1. Show some love for a Cor 3rd Roll.
2. Geomancer need some love at this point. Entrust timer is way too long and it be great if it was 5 minute recast. If that remain unchanged than Entrust 10 minute JA is no problem as long as the spell that was cast with it last really long.
3. Blue Mage I have been playing this job for 2 month now. I notice Grekumah is a 7 year blue mage veteran? Can we make Diffusion really good at this point because Erratic Flutter with Diffusion seems to last longer than other spell like nature meditation, Cocoon, Regeneration, and other spell. I like blue mage buffer to last long enough so it can help alliance if use with Diffusion. Since Smn can give up to 3 buffer and Blue Mage can only give one buffer to party with diffusion. I don't know how but Grekumah make it so Diffusion is good to use for supporting the DD or supporting the Black Mage. =) -
05-28-2015, 03:16 PMHoshi
Cor can definitely solo, although I wouldn't recommend only shooting when soloing on cor. Cor is not in the same class as bst or pup because bst and pup can't buff (marginally smn because smn buffs can be nifty). Some of the new NMs in Escha have such high evasion that you need hunters roll, madrigals, precision and torpor from a geo, and you'll still miss! If they decided to give us a third roll that would be cool but cor is already a very useful job.
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05-29-2015, 03:59 AMGrekumah
Thanks for the additional feedback. As always, I've forwarded it to the dev. team.
While we're on the topic about corsair, I would like to note that we’re currently looking into new item level 119 ammunition that can be used by corsair. -
05-29-2015, 09:16 AMHoshi
119 ammo would be greatly appreciated!
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05-30-2015, 03:23 PMYosemiteYogorockBlondelleI hope it also has to do with the corsairs shooting ammo cards too.. ;-) well new cor guns to match the setup with the new ammo would be nice too actually. I'm still a fan of how the cor's af quested gun's design with its colors it had on seemed to me as if it looked really cool as well, so maybe something along the lines from those designs into the newer cor gun designs, possibly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoshi
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06-04-2015, 05:56 PMSandmaste
Just to bring another thing up, the gifts we get for Job Points is a very subtle way at increasing the gap further against other jobs that DD using att/ratt/acc/racc. Our att/acc girts are around 4/5 acc or att whereas other melee/rng'd DD jobs get much more. The amount of MAB we get over 550 Job points is something like +4 total (sorry don't have game in front of me at the moment) with the only gift that really is a good gift we don't pick up until we have all 550.
On MNK I think the att/acc bonus's are around 8, and on SAM I think they are as high as 10/11.
Finally, the RACC job point category is nice, but again +1 for a total of 10 additional RACC is a bit of an insult when other job's pick up that much as a single gift, and some of the DD output Job point categories add some very nice DD output bonuses - each Job point should be +2RACC, Even if the categories get raised to 20 being able to get 40RACC from job point's would be a nice way of closing the gap a little on part of one of the skills we use, and something that isn't handed out on a plate like a simple skill increase in Marks would be (which I still think would of been nice).