I see that the devs again indicated that instead of outright fixing something that isn't working for a job they plan to address it with job points. That is not acceptable.
I am just exasperated. Job points should be a bonus, not a job fix. If the devs think people are going to subscribe to solo grind points for months they are wrong.
Please just fix things without tying it to the obscene grind that is job points.
This is what set me off today - but it's a trend:
NO. Just NO. If you recognize that pet accuracy is so terrible it makes pet jobs unusable in current content - FIX IT. Don't expect us to grind 6 months of job points on a job no one will invite regardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grekumah
Job Points should not be JOB FIXES
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08-28-2014, 01:49 AMOlorJob Points should not be JOB FIXES
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08-28-2014, 08:27 AMDemonjustin
If JPs could be gotten more quickly, the BST JPs might actually make BST a bit more playable since it has some great ones. At the current rate though yeah it's stupid to expect it to mean much, and to expect it as a fix for a job entirely? That's simply insulting...
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08-29-2014, 01:31 AMOlorThanks for the support and to all those who liked as well. BST does have great ones, but if the rate of gain is balanced against getting them in content, and a job is not welcome in content - it just puts pet jobs in another bind. Besides - while some jobs are getting fixes (like if they "fix" pet accuracy through job points) other jobs are getting massive boosts (Sam Hasso Strength bonus) - once again - the job that needs help will continue to fall behind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
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08-29-2014, 01:53 AMSapphires
Job points aren't job fixes and they aren't required by people when forming parties.
There exists no game content which requires you to have them to win.
Pet only groups are clearing VD battlefields already, please stop complaining the job is weak when it isnt. -
08-29-2014, 02:31 AMOlorGet back to me when people start shouting for BST to fill DD slot on Delve. Or won't laugh in your face if you suggest it as DD. You're wrong, thanks for playing. Being able to do a couple battlefields does not mean the jobs don't need help. The devs have admitted pets have serious accuracy problems and keeping up pets cuts our DD potential. Even the hardcore playerbase admits pets jobs are weak. Example: Afania suggested a PUP can do about 65% of the DD of a SAM in Delve. Sorry, that's not acceptable, and yes, it is broken in a bad way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphires
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08-29-2014, 07:11 AMArbalestI doubt PUP could pull 650 DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olor
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08-29-2014, 07:29 AMMaltharYou have no idea what you're talking about, do you? How many times do you suppose they tried clearing a VD battlefield, and how long did it take? And better yet, what the acc of master and pet?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphires
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08-29-2014, 07:55 AMDonquichot
Clearing VD battlefields on ilvl 125 content is NOT possible at this point on all pet jobs. With Minions on Shiva we have gotten the furthest on D battlefields only. And this isnt guaranteed. It requires luck at times since pet hate is still broken up to the point to a simple Summoner summoning getting hate if it summons closer than 25 distance a few times. Stuff like that has been broken for 2 years now.
The setup we use isnt available to everyone using pet jobs. Its just abusing the fact that canibal blade is 100% hitrate. Keep in mind we did this with 5 pets and 1 cor. All pets jobs geared towards pet:acc and survival. We have made this setup somewhat safer by mixing using a pld,geo,pupx3 and cor. This only works due to the broken eva down luopon casted by the geo. Geo became a really solid job after the patch. But bringing a Geo should NOT be the fix to our accurracy problems.
All pet jobs setups still lack 2 things making it a 50/50 win in Difficult and impossible in Very Difficult.
1) Accuracy which is getting closer to acceptable but were still lacking about 100 accuracy.
2) Pet damage taken. With the limited amount of healing available the pets die way too fast. Sure we can bring 40+ dawn mulsum to every event, but this is at 10k/mulsum a cost of 400k per fight. BST still has the nich of high hp pets but on puppetmaster i can only get 2300-2800 hp on valoredge. This while it takes 100-1200 ws damage from Ilvl 122+ Notorious monsters. Either up the puppets hp or give us more options to heal the pet. This includes healing debuffs. And if you do give us a cheaper option. 10k per Dawn mulsum isnt an option for alot of players. -
08-29-2014, 08:21 AMBalloon
It's never been about being able to do something over not do it. Because it's not exactly some big binary thing. Yeah you can go and win, I've heard of it happening, but there's an element of risk aversion that you want to consider when doing stuff like that.
RNG is popular because it ticks most of those boxes, out of AoE, Lower enmity, some form of TH, does decent damage.
The VD puppetmaster way, the one that I have heard, involves dumping your enmity onto a pet. It's.. an odd one. Being able to do decent damage on even Normal/Difficult as a pet job is hard with a pet because of the obstacles it has to overcome. So yes, it can do it, but it's never really going to be anything more than a proof of concept. The skill, gear, the ability to not let your pet get hit to ADD... It's more than a PUG could ever handle, and it's tedious for others to set up.
As for doing it with pets, yeah, if you want to melee too that isn't happening. Your pet'll die too fast and there's very little outside of spamming muslums that you can do about that. Your pet has a base of 770 Accuracy, 3 thunder maneuvers.. full timing that will overload you, and it's not even a significant amount of accuracy. Pet food is around 18% accuracy, so not enough to fill in the gap. On 128 content you're looking at a 50% or under hit rate for pets. They already attack slower.. It's miniscule damage.
On topic, though, 90 accuracy, which is a liberal estimate of +3 per job point.. will not fix pet jobs. If you are willing to accept there is a problem then the fix should be applied to the base, then augmented with job points. That's what job points are supposed to be - smallish augments that are gained over time when playing a job. There are a lot of possible fixes, having player gear augment pet stats somewhat, just buffing pet accuracy and attack, allowing outside buffs to hit. The fix shouldn't be job points. I don't see how the fix can be job points when the average PUP/BST will not be getting excess of 600 job points. -
08-30-2014, 06:08 AMCamiieHey you know there's this one guy who's a really awesome DNC. He has the absolute best gear possible including a 119 Afterglow Mythic. Heck his offhand weapon is better than most people's main. He can equal or surpass most any normally accepted melee DD in most any situation. Therefore I have come to the conclusion that there's nothing wrong with DNC and any DNC you can find is a fine addition to any party or alliance for any content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphires
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08-30-2014, 11:51 AMSNKQuote:
Originally Posted by Olor
Seriously please stop with all the angry rant threads. Oh wait yeah you can't read my posts. God what a waste of bandwith this thread is...
Edit: I take that back. This was a very good post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphires
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08-30-2014, 09:12 PMCamiie
Look, SNK, I don't know you except from your posts here where you tend to shoot down any suggestions that BST receive improvements to make it more effective and desirable in group play or get its Treasure Hunter back. I'm going to just go on the assumption that you're like that extraordinary DNC in my previous post. You're the one person out of the multitudes who play the job who somehow makes it work for whatever you want to do. That doesn't mean the job is fine. It's fine for you, and quite honestly that doesn't mean a darn thing. Your experience is an aberration yet you treat it as though it's the norm. That's really not very smart.
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08-30-2014, 09:25 PMAeronI don't know if you can go so far as to say that his experiences are an aberration. Without getting into details it just appears and I could be completely wrong, but I don't think I am that the ppl asking for significant buff just aren't very good players. I really don't mean that to sound offensive. You have to gear appropriately for battle situation, you have to obtain a certain standard of gear to beat D content. A lot of the comments on here make it sound like they want to be able to beat content on ROE gear on D or higher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camiie
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08-30-2014, 10:14 PMCamiieYou are completely wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeron
My WAR is pretty well geared and, excluding AF and Relic Armor, shares the majority of that gear with my BST. Using essentially the same gear, and even using dual axes, my WAR will do much more damage than my BST+pet. My BST doesn't have the oomph my WAR does. It doesn't have the abilities and traits that make WAR an effective DD. THAT is the issue here. The only native buff BST has is Killer Instinct and there are many situations where it's not even useful. Aggressor, Berserk, Warcry, Warrior's Charge, Retaliation, Restraint, and Blood Rage will work just as well against an undead, arcana, Ark Angel or beastman as they will against a lizard or bird. Also one may have to rely on a subpar pet just to get the bonus. It doesn't help that even decent DD pets are neutered (pun sort of intended) of what would be powerful ready moves. Basically BST has a lack of personal power, and the pet doesn't make up the difference because they too lack power and accuracy.Quote:
I really don't mean that to sound offensive. You have to gear appropriately for battle situation, you have to obtain a certain standard of gear to beat D content. A lot of the comments on here make it sound like they want to be able to beat content on ROE gear on D or higher.
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08-30-2014, 10:16 PMDemonjustinFrom one friend to another, I assure you, BST's issues aren't simply in the gear of those complaining. You know I work on Cem quite a bit and while I don't know that you've ever really seen me play it, I do work on BST quite a bit due to it being my old Dynamis job on her. Once RF came out I worked on 109/119ing Cem's RF gear and got her both of my desired axes, that said she never came close to basically any other DD even in minor content like Skirmish, let alone AAs. I won't say she's anywhere near the best BST ever, no where near, but her gear isn't gimped either. Her DMG however was never close enough between pet and master combined for me to continue going to events on the job as I always felt like a waste, it's one of the reasons I stopped playing Cem months ago for the most part and began to do everything on DJ again. So, with that said, while I will say some people don't gear it as it should be geared it's not all a gear problem, a lot of it comes in the form of simply issues with the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeron
A few things that BST specifically has done as sort of a slap in the face for one would be Job Points. It's probably one of the least likely jobs to get JPs in the entire game, yet it has Pet Haste as a category, the best category of any JP there is. Once uncapped this will be an amazing 30% Haste for your pet, assuming that's magic haste as it's the only form that goes above 25% would mean that a BST using proper gear and Familiar would have an amazing -65% Delay on their pet at all times, which would more or less make up for the lack of haste buffs on your pet by itself. That's amazing, and while it's amazing and would help the job a ton it's behind a gate no one wants to get passed because it's so damned time taking. So, it's part gear, part job, and part predictive overpowering I think, but in the end the job simply needs adjustments because as it stands right now it has no real use that I can tell. Even it's old niche Dynamis has been taken over by THF and DNC which make far more than BST now, it's slow at Salvage by compare to most, and those are the only old events BST can really accell at that others used to struggle with.