I've been playing RUN since a couple weeks past the release of Seeker's of Adoulin. A job that felt as if it had no hope has improved dramatically over the year. Though there is still very minimal use for RUN in a party setting, I still try to find more uses. Content that I've found the most satisfying for RUN are reives, including wildkeepers. With good gear and merits they can tank quite well, until hate caps of course, as with any tanking job. I've tried to bring my RUN to delve or High Tier Battlefields with little success on group invites to try it out. I hope to try it out with a low man linkshell party in the future. My gear is not the best, but it is still high enough to be able to experiment.
My main set is:
Aettir
Tzacab Grip
Honed tathlum
Futhark bandeau +1
Twilight torque
Ethereal earring
Spellbreaker earring
Runeist coat +1
Runeist mitons +1
Dark ring (physical damage -4%, magical damage -4%)
Dark ring (physical damage -4%, magical damage -4%)
Evasionist's cape
Flume belt
Runeist trousers +1
Futhark boots +1
There is room for improvement obviously, but that is for another topic. Having tanked for a while, there is still a plethora of problems i face. This includes hate, damage, and physical survivability. RUN's magical defense capabilities are very impressive, i have no problems with it as it should be. Against anything that deals heavy physical damage and/or high level, it is very weak. I have capped skills in everything for RUN and merits in greatsword, evasion, parrying, STR, DEX, AGI, Rune Enchantment/Vallation effect 5/5, Inspiration 5/5, battuta 4/5, and Rayke 1/5. For job points so far I only have Rune Effects 2/10 and elemental sforzo effect 1/10. I'm still improving my RUN quite a bit but i feel there needs to be major upgrades aside from just gear and merits still.
- Hate system still needs to be revamped quite a bit
As with each tank job in the game, this is the leading factor in tanking problems. There have been posts that adjustments will be made, so until then i can only wait.
- "Battuta" is an amazing job ability, lower recast or higher duration is critical.
This ability changes things dramatically, such as when hit by wildkeeper reive weakness abilities or low on HP. I've been saved countless times by it, at least until it wears off.
- More higher tiers of the job trait "Inquartata".
Parrying needs to be more heavily enphasized on RUN, it is crucial to survivability on anything physical.
- New Effusions
More runic abilities to deal magical damage, gain/keep hate, and/or aid in dehibilitating enemies would be helpful.
- New Wards
More runic abilities to ward physical damage, gain/keep hate, increase parrying, and/or defend against high damage abilities would be helpful.
- New Abilities geared towards keeping hate and increasing parrying and/or evasion.
Parrying and evasion are the keys to tanking for rune, it would be helpful having abilities to aid in this. An ability with a 5m recast and 2hr duration which assists in increased job performance would be nice, such as velocity shot for ranger, but increasing in parrying and evasion.
- New ability or trait for increasing physical resistance.
Physical survivability is still the fall of any RUN, even small increases to physical defending capabilities can help.
- New spells
Spells to defend against physical damage, shave damage off light and dark based spells, and/or aid in holding hate on enemies would be helpful.
And finally....
- Allow "Valiance" to double duration on surrounding party members and have dramatically increased range.
I feel very strongly about this. Having this ability reach party members including mages on the back lines can increase RUN's favorability in parties. To be able to ward off heavy magical damage and grant fast cast if merited would be very helpful to everyone in the party.
I would like to see RUN used more in current content and hope this thread will be at least read by the developers in time to consider adjustments for the september update, thanks for your time.
- Nightfox
The Life of a Rune Fencer
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08-12-2014, 10:03 AMNightfoxThe Life of a Rune Fencer
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08-12-2014, 03:05 PMFrankReynoldsThe ergon weapon should have had an incredible parry rate like PLD shields have for block / mdt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightfox
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08-13-2014, 05:10 AMEinalem
I agree that Battuta is strong, when up.
As far as up-time versus recast, the only part I find odd is 1:30 Duration, where things like Swordplay are 2 Mintues.
I wouldn't mind a middle ground, though.
Halve the Parry proc rate added by Battuta and add it as a baseline to Inquartata or in a separate trait if need be.
That would give more baseline Parry survivability and not diminish the usefulness of Battuta. -
08-14-2014, 09:11 AMGrekumah
Speaking about parry, we do not have any plans to make adjustments to Battuta or Inquartata. We have to be very careful when making adjustments to improve the activation rate of parry since it nullifies physical damage and as such we’d like players to carefully choose when to use Battuta.
While we do not have any plans to increase the effect duration of Valiance, we do plan on increasing the range of the effect and we are looking to address this in the September version update. -
08-14-2014, 12:54 PMFrankReynoldsIt's not really a choice. You either need it or you don't. When you need it, you need it all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grekumah
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08-14-2014, 11:12 PMEinalem
Grekumah: thank you for the input.
I'm sure as a community rep, you've had to deal with players and their weird expectations that might not mesh with game reality.
This is the source of everyone's discontent: Aegis.
Paladins who have it, love it.
Paladin's who don't have it complain they need it to be competitive.
Rune Fencers feel they can't compete with it.
The worst part is, it's equipment.
It's not a Job Ability, Food Effect, or Spell, so it isn't subject to various Dispelling effects or recast timers; As long as it's equipped, it's a constant, not a variable.
Rune Fencers have two defensive checks: Evasion (B+) and Parry (A+)
Paladins have three defensive checks: Evasion (C), Parry (C), Block (A+)
Just off this, I would expect Rune Fencer to take 0 Damage from attacks more frequently than Paladin unless you are in a situation where Evasion is close to it's floor for both jobs (ie, end game content)
If a Rune Fencer and a Paladin are going to be hit by 4 attacks that deal 1000 damage each, and Rune Fencer has a 25% Parry chance normally, Versus a Paladin who we will assume doesn't Parry, but has an Aegis at a 50% block rate for 75% less damage (if I'm reading this link right)
Rune Fencer: 1000, 1000, 1000, 0000 = 3000
Paladin: 1000, 0250, 1000, 0250 = 2500
This isn't including any difference in Physical Damage taken on the gear, or the actual Defense Value that these jobs can equip.
If Rune Fencer has anything other than Battuta for increasing the Parry Cap above 25% that would affect this calculation, great! Get that information out there! Combat player misconceptions!
The main concern of Rune Fencers is physical survivability.
Let's suggest some out of the box things as well.
If you don't want to increase the Parry Hard Cap, consider a Parry Soft Cap; a percentage of ranges where Parry doesn't fully activate to negate all damage, but can shave off a chunk of it.
A Trait like this could give Rune Fencer some passive survivability complementing it's tanking methods without breaking Parry.
Who knows, though. Maybe having some Epeolatries out in the wild will correct the imbalance, but we aren't quite there yet. -
08-15-2014, 01:04 AMZhronne
Instead of increasing Valiance range, how about making Inspiration undispellable, just like Valiance/Vallation? At the same conditions (i.e. when used with 3 runes up)
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08-15-2014, 09:22 AMMartelExcept that's base block rate, not actual block rate. And that page is wrong anyway, since Aegis has 5% higher base block rate than a size 3 shield, while the page claims they're the same. Also, while it is technically true that Aegis itself has -75% dmg reduction on block, a PLD using Aegis will get -81% due to shield defense bonus. So -81% would be the value you need to use in any calculations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einalem
But anyway. Aegis is NOT going to be getting a 50% block rate on Anything decent level.
Let's see... as an example of Aegis vs high level mobs, my last test on lvl 126 mobs yielded a 11.91% block rate.(The test sample was 4,172 total hits, btw.) That's a total damage reduction value of -9.6%.(for comparison, Ochain against the same mobs yielded -46.3% total damage reduction.)
To put it simply, Aegis' physical defenses suck against current high level content. The lack of ilvl updates hurt it quite badly compared to modern shields considering the extremely high lvl mobs can be now. However, It maintains usefulness via it's MDT II. But while being near immune to magic, physical vulnerability is greatly increased compared to other shields.
You can make arguments for reprisal and palisade helping with Aegis' physical lack, but those, and the buffs needed to maintain reprisal are subject to the same dispelling issue RUN has with it's other buffs.
Hmmm... I'm getting Deja Vu... I could swear I've done a Aegis PLD vs RUN defenses comparison on here somewhere already.. Well, I don't really feel like looking for it. And in any case, the main point was just to correct inaccurate information, not to go all PLD vs RUN.
Well, how about Inquartata? Assuming there even is a parry cap, and I tend to doubt these things till I see it proven, Inquartata certainly bypasses it. I have data with RUN at higher than 25% parry rates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einalem
Although, I doubt RUN is going to hit significant parry rates on high end content. Stuff is just too high level. -
08-15-2014, 09:32 PMEinalem
I love data updates like this!
If you can find that other thread a link would be great, sir! -
08-15-2014, 11:46 PMNightfoxThanks for the response, Grekumah. I understand that parry cannot be increased to high to prevent RUN from becoming very powerful. And i am excited to hear that valiance range will be increased, hopefully dramatically. Not to sound pushy or impatient, but if you could let the dev team know to make more adjustments faster to put RUN out there would be nice. It took a year and a couple months to get to this point of still being left out, and GEO has more use and is needed far more often than RUN. Would be nice to see some dramatic job changing adjustments to RUN to push it out there. I would like to tank in contents like Delve, High-Tier Battlefields, and New Skirmish. Right now that is very far from happening though due to time limits and other strategies being much better. I am slowly building RUN mythic without paying for high purity bayld, but earning through reives. I am far from that goal this way, but an Aettir RUN should be able to do things as well. Thanks for the response.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grekumah
- Nightfox -
08-16-2014, 12:22 AMAfaniaNot trying to say RUN is as good as PLD, but RUN can already tank in above content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightfox
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08-16-2014, 12:39 AMNightfoxNot without being in runs with friends, I've never once seen a shout asking for a RUN on my server, when i am on at least. The time limit in such content with rune fencer in its current state is also a problem. There are strategies with pld and DD and/or rng, but not with RUN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
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08-16-2014, 03:10 AMMalitharWelcome to MMOs, where the bandwagoners, elitist, noobs, sheep, or whatever you may call them cling to a single posted strat that has worked, and will not deviate without an extreme buff to said not-shouted-for job, or a situation arises where the shouted job absolutely can't be filled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightfox
Many jobs fit into this. War and Drk may not have quite the oomph of Sam post SC update, but they're still more than capable DDs for any content, same deal with a fair number of other DD jobs. When's the last time you've seen them shouted for? How often do you see Geo shouted for? Sch? Blm? Smn? These are all jobs that while maybe having an issue or three that need worked out, are more than capable of filling a role in content. Whether the player base at large accepts that or not isn't really something the developers can control, short of massive buffs, and even that doesn't always have the intended effect. Geo is downright ridiculous at the moment, barring ballads for your backline, it destroys what Brd is capable of doing, specially an Idris Geo. Have you seen them shouted for though?
Chances are, even if you're desperate and will risk taking a Run over a Pld, you won't get a good Run. How many good Runs do you know? Personally, I know one. That doesn't give me much confidence at all that shouting for one will turn up a good result, I'd more than likely end up getting a Run that swore by /Sam to tank and had full 119 AF/Relic at best, and thought they were a badass. At least with Pld, you kind of assume if they have Ochain and an Aegis, they at least have an idea of what they're doing.
Many of those same strats designed for Pld and Rngs can and do work with Run as well. It can surely get a bit messy, doubly so if the Run gets unlucky or lacks specific sets, but it's plenty do-able. -
08-16-2014, 03:28 AMOlor
lol... so how many idris GEOs are there? 4? 7? 3 on each server? using as an example someone with a mythic or mythic equivalent is silly...
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08-16-2014, 03:39 AMMalitharNon-Idris Geo is still stronger for Acc and Att (-Def really) wise than a Brd. I mentioned Idris Geo cause it's far and away stronger, not just a lil stronger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olor
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08-16-2014, 04:02 AMMartelWell, that's a nice enthusiastic response.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einalem
Here's a small parry/shield comparison. It's a bit less in-depth than I had vaguely recalled. Really just one data set at a given lvl with Aegis. But still interesting.
I did a quick search for my RUN related posts on this forum, and came up with this. This is a comparison of PLD and RUNs enmity generation.
While I've done a lot more PLD related testing that RUN related, there's probably still more floating around on these forums. Using the advanced search with my name(exact name checked) is a pretty good way of going through it.
As a game mechanics resource, I'd recommend http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg. Particularly http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/RUN.
The BG forums are also an excellent resource. And sometimes things discovered on the forums don't make it on to the wiki. But there's a ton of stuff to sift through.
The FFXIAH forums are also a pretty good resource. -
08-16-2014, 05:07 AMBebekeke
I always find that RUN is better as a supporting tank. PLD+RUN or RUN + a group of DDs, even RUN + RUN bouncing hate. RUN is very good at mitigating damage, though if it's very hard-hitting mobs, you'll quickly run out of MP spamming near insta-cast stoneskin. The other thing that RUN has going for it apart from magic and parry is a reasonable evasion. PLD will never expect to evade an attack, other than the 5% floor, whereas RUN can expect to evade at a much higher rate, particularly when using swordplay and during TP moves when using foil.
Not to mention it's fairly easy to get -50% PDT on RUN, and not too hard to reach -55% -
08-16-2014, 07:09 AMAfaniaRUN/NIN act like a PLD in a tank+RNG setup. It's the same strategy, just using different job to execute it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightfox
You shouldn't use /shout to determine a job's strength, because:
1) 90% of the /shout pt setup can't be a real indication of a job's strength.
For example, GEO is the best job for the stunner spot in delve1 since GEO can do buff/debuff AND stun + Nuke. Most of the /shout pt on my server still /shout for a....SCH. Which is a much worse alternative than RDM and GEO for the stunner spot.
No delve pt ever /shout for jobs like COR, instead they /shout for MNKx3, while COR provide more contribution than 1 single MNK can provide. COR is also a good skirmish3 job and ppl don't /shout for it either, instead they /shout for MNKx3~4 >.> While MNK x3~4 can clear skirmish just fine it's not ideal to have an entire pt full of MNK but no COR.
Half of the ceizak pt /shout for a RNG before flurry2 update. Pretty sure before flurry update RNG isn't as ideal as namas SAM in ceizak.
I think ppl need to stop using "no one /shout for X job" to argue whether a job suck or not. Most /shout pt do things completely wrong nor /shout for ideal job/setup. If you want to argue about X job suck, you need to use game mechanics/gears and compare players playing/gearing right. Ppl don't /shout for a GEO because most GEO doesn't have proper DD/cure/stun set to contribute enough, despite GEO is a superior alternative to SCH. Ppl don't /shout for a COR because most COR/WHM, despite COR is still a superior alternative to 3rd MNK.
Most ppl don't /shout for RUN because most RUN don't even play the job like a real tank.
2) Most of the time, you can send /tell and ask if you can join on another job, even if the pt lead didn't /shout for it.
70% of the time I can get an invite on a different job, just saying.
That being said, if you do that, don't suck on the job. I often get invite on COR even if the pt wasn't /shouting for it, but when I get invite I do make sure I do enough contribution so they have a good impression on the job. There are several pt that /shout for SAM or MNK for delve, I bugged the hell out of leader for a spot on COR when they said COR suck. After I got the spot I often do enough dmg contribution so they all shut up.
You can try to send a /tell when pt is shouting for a PLD, but make sure you can do the job(keep hate and not die) just fine on RUN. Again, RUN can tank marj/AA/DM just fine, but if you suck/fail then you can't really complain about ppl not /shouting for it. It doesn't change the fact that RUN can do the job just fine though. -
08-16-2014, 04:14 PMNightfoxI understand what your saying, that post wasnt to compare job strength to /sh, but to its current position in the world. I could of said that I have never seen a /sh for a DNC either, but I have seen a DNC perform well past what i thought it could in a Stellar Fulcrum II run. it all depends on the skill of the player and if u get the chance to show what you can do, usually meaning host your own run, as in his case. I have never asked to substitute another job for what is shouted though, mostly because i dislike when players do it to me. Any leader -- or i should say most leaders -- would not want to gamble on a strategy that could potentially cause a failed run if another strategy has already succeeded. Especially if the cost is greater than the gamble, ie. pop item costs, merit point costs, and other costs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
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08-16-2014, 05:31 PMAfaniaQuote:
Originally Posted by Nightfox
Using RUN over a PLD isn't a gamble on a different strategy though, it's the exactly same strategy except it's RUN instead of PLD.
PLD+RNG setup = PLD tank, RNG TP WS.
RUN+RNG setup = RUN tank, RNG TP WS.
If you're replacing PLD with a RDM, or BLM, or another melee so the setup has no tank at all, then it's gambling on a different strategy. But RUN and PLD are both tanks so I don't understand what's wrong with that.
I also have to point out, using RUN to tank over PLD is also a "strategy has already succeeded". Ppl have done it before, so you can't say it has potential to fail because of the job. -
08-16-2014, 11:16 PMDarthmaull
I agree with Afania. I've gotten to the point that I mainly only use Run, Dnc and Geo. Primarily Run though. I used to have a static that we used my Run for and we would win with no problems on the chaper 1-5 fights. I left the game for a while and when I came back the new AA fights were in. My old static now had just about all level 119 gear and a Pld with Ochain. Coming back and now trying to compete with that Pld was hard. I couldn't keep up and I blamed it on the job and eventually quit the static. Since working mainly on Run and gearing it to full 119 gear and getting different macro pieces to enhance certain abilities, I can say that Run can tank high level content. Having good gear and skill in a job is a major factor.
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08-17-2014, 12:51 AMNightfoxThis is true, just as a NIN falls under the tank category and should be able to fill the role as well. It's hard to tell if a strategy has already succeeded though, I personally haven't heard of any RUN success stories or found anything on the web, unless it is deep in forum post. In game, many don't know of it succeeding in higher level content, which includes myself. So many people just stick to the same strategy that succeeds the most, and is talked about the most.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
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08-17-2014, 09:05 AMAfaniaQuote:
Originally Posted by Nightfox
If you read a lot of BG or FFXIAH forums, it's often being talked about. Personally I pt with another RUN for marj T1~6, I've never get a chance to pt with with RUN in AA/DM2, but I've read ppl pt with RUN on AA/DM2 np on forum.
That being said, RUN is slightly harder than PLD to play. You need to keep shadows up and manage a lot more JA for hate/surviveability. You also need to know which rune to use, which debuff the NM has, which elemental dmg the NM can do, instead of just equip an Aegis and gtfo.
As for NIN, idk much about NIN's hate tool, so I can't make comment about it. -
08-17-2014, 11:56 AMNightfoxI'll have to find those posts then, thanks for the info :) i actually haven't used /nin on RUN much so I'll look into that too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
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08-17-2014, 05:43 PMBebekeke
I still find it astonishing that people think RUN can't tank Delve, considering that when Delve 1 was still hard, lots of PUG (particularly JP) were shouting for 2 RUN for every delve run. 1 to put in each DD party. This was before people realised that they could use RUN as a SJ and just carry on with all MNK/RUN.
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08-17-2014, 06:02 PMAfaniaQuote:
Originally Posted by Nightfox
/NIN is probably the best tanking SJ thanks to fast cast usu from inspiration.
At that time JP PUG actually used RUN as a DD, not a "tank". Further more they used both RUN in pt AND MNK/RUN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bebekeke
Of course whether you need to play that defensively or not is another argument.
I think when we talk about tanking in delve we mostly mean marj.