Any chance we can have HP Bayld become more available?

Is there any chance the two new Mythic Quests (RUN/GEO) can be "balanced" out to be roughly equivalent to all other job Mythic quests?

Specifically I'm talking about making "Linen" versions of the HP Bayld items needed which would contain ~99 items and having these made available more readily, as we see in Salvage runs. Apparently 'Cotton" pouch versions of these already exist, but I've never seen nor heard of anyone getting these in a WKR, so the drop rate must be absurd.

Currently on my server, prices of HP Bayld range from 30-40k, compared to Alex which have dropped to 7-8k (and are currently being over-farmed now that the fishing nerf was implemented). So 1 Ergon Weapon is about equivalent to 4 Mythics (not comparing other aspects of the quests of course – Coalition to Legend vs. Assaults, Einherjar vs. Delve Boss items, etc)

I can farm 150 Alex solo in about 1hr, whereas to farm that many HP Bayld through all means WKR, Rieves, buying with Bayld (10k = 1 HP) would take me around 1 week+, so basically unless you're a player that has amassed 500mil gil somehow, these new Ergon weapons are wildly unattainable compared to all other job Mythics.

Can we have balance... please?

Tiny

actually an ergon weapon (assumeing 30k hp bayld and not higher) costs: 13099x 30k = 392'970'000 gil, whereas a mythic costs (lets assume 8.5k per alex, at least on myserver thats the lowest you get mostly) = 30000x8500=255'000'000, so an ergon weapon costs 1.5 mythics (at this moment) so no it doesnt cost 4 mythics ¬.¬

EDIT: to contribute to your question, I do agree that there isnt enough HP-Bayld in circulation. They should add the rate up a bit (just a tiny bit).

The problem isn't right now. It costs so much right now because they are bought almost immediately so demand is pretty high since they're rather new. However, since there's no efficient way to solo these the problem is going to be in about a year when WKRs don't draw the crowds they used to.

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Originally Posted by Xerius

The problem isn't right now. It costs so much right now because they are bought almost immediately so demand is pretty high since they're rather new. However, since there's no efficient way to solo these the problem is going to be in about a year when WKRs don't draw the crowds they used to.

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You're on Bahamut, where are you getting the idea that the demand is so high? Just takes 1 or 2 people to be making a weapon for there to be a demand. Demand certainly isn't very high though, prices have dropped down to less than 20k, though due to supply being short, 30k~ish ones are still bought. Saw someone shouting off almost 300 at 19k and someone shouting off over a thousand of them at 22k earlier today (though this one mighta been HMPs, I honestly forget).

I do agree though that without some radical changes at some point, these will be incredibly difficult to make.

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Originally Posted by Malithar

You're on Bahamut, where are you getting the idea that the demand is so high? Just takes 1 or 2 people to be making a weapon for there to be a demand. Demand certainly isn't very high though, prices have dropped down to less than 20k, though due to supply being short, 30k~ish ones are still bought. Saw someone shouting off almost 300 at 19k and someone shouting off over a thousand of them at 22k earlier today (though this one mighta been HMPs, I honestly forget).

I do agree though that without some radical changes at some point, these will be incredibly difficult to make.

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yeah but it only needs a slight increase, if they increase it too much it would get way too easy to finish those weapons. And those arent weak mythics by any means, they are pritty strong. i think what they should do is have an option to turn all RoE WKR KIs in for a guaranteed Linen and raise the pouch drop rate on WKR slightly. Even this might be maybe too much of an increase on a currency only 2 (not so popular) jobs use.

Since Ergon Weapons have been set as extremely strong weapons, the development team does not have any plans to ease up on the process for obtaining them. With that said, there are no plans at this time to make high purity bayld more readily available.

Ok that's that then I guess. See you in about 3 years when my Stage 3 requirement is done then I guess.

Meanwhile I'll enjoy seeing everyone else wrapping up their Mythics (many of which are significantly more "powerful" than RUN/GEO) getting completed in about 2 months time because Alex is in pretty much everyone's bazaars for rock bottom prices (dipped to around 6-7k on my server vs. 30-40k per HP Bayld)

Considering these two jobs are barely ever asked to join in endgame activities, giving them the absolutely hardest weapon quests in the game, seems kind of insulting to me.

I think SE needs clarify what they mean, when they use the term "balance."

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

Since Ergon Weapons have been set as extremely strong weapons, the development team does not have any plans to ease up on the process for obtaining them. With that said, there are no plans at this time to make high purity bayld more readily available.

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This doesn't make sense though, Koga and Yagrush is just as powerful/job changing as ergon weapons, and it's 1/3 of price to build. Someone on BG just posted 15 mythics in his inv, gonna collect them all!

I know several players that are buying up any decently priced HP-Bayld on the off chance that it becomes used for any weapons for the other jobs in the future. There are others who buy any that they see for under 30-40k and mark them up so that people making these new weapons have to pay much more for it. Both of these factors directly affect the prices of HP-Bayld and have set the bar much higher than what was likely intended.

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Originally Posted by Tinytimtaru

Ok that's that then I guess. See you in about 3 years when my Stage 3 requirement is done then I guess.

Meanwhile I'll enjoy seeing everyone else wrapping up their Mythics (many of which are significantly more "powerful" than RUN/GEO) getting completed in about 2 months time because Alex is in pretty much everyone's bazaars for rock bottom prices (dipped to around 6-7k on my server vs. 30-40k per HP Bayld)

Considering these two jobs are barely ever asked to join in endgame activities, giving them the absolutely hardest weapon quests in the game, seems kind of insulting to me.

I think SE needs clarify what they mean, when they use the term "balance."

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I think you are underestimating how powerful run/geo mythics are.... probably because you are trying to compare performances on those jobs with them instead of the weapons themselves. And well both jobs are kinda flawed compared to their counter parts

RUN mythic is probably the better DD weapon out there, gswds have the most dmg ws out there right now and even it's ergon ws is really strong AND the best defensive weapon in the game by miles... it's just on a job that doesn't have DD traits or job abilities and spends a lot of it's time using jas and spells instead of meleeing. I'd be drks best weapon if they could equip it.

Idris is the best magic dmg club in the game right now by a lot. It also increases geo spells a lot (seriously right now you can get -83% att with it allow you to with some bio set mob attack to 1 no matter how high it is and they are going already planning on increasing it's effect on geo spells) and neatly solves the problem of luopon survivability.... it's just luopon survivability shouldn't have been such a big issue in the first place, staffs will do better dmg unless you dual wield clubs because well you can dual wield clubs, and geo without Idris is more suited for alliance content because of how it's buffs/debuffs are. But really what mythic would you compare it to? Wouldn't make sense to compare it to a DD and cors doesn't help buffing and brd only enhances duration. Kinda making this by far the best mythic for buff/debuff heavy job. It's just brd gets things like empyrean 4 song harp (though that's pretty hard to make now) and ghorn... and it can prebuff.

I admit the prices are kinda annoying but you can't straight up compare cost of each one. Doing that makes it seem like ergon are 5 times more expensive but with how much you actually have to get with your server prices the mythic would come out to 180-210 mil and the ergon 392-523 so about double... though that's going to change a bit by server like over here last I checked alex was still 7-8k and HP was more like 20-30k heck like Mal said sometimes even less than 20k each which makes them fairly comparable in price and when you consider the time saved not having to farm tokens, assaults, and ichor possibly cheaper really. Heck right now I'm just using my mules to run couriers assignments real quick... which levels them up in the process as well as makes pretty fast cruor and can be done with any level no gear no skill etc. Eventually I could probably lvl and merit them up good enough to do salvage with balyd gear for even more farming lol

The hard part is convincing people to part with the millions of baldy they have saved up from doing assignments that they aren't using and then teaching them how rpgs work so they can convert them because apparently no one seems to understand that sometimes in rpgs you have to click all options on npcs to unlock other options

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Originally Posted by Afania

This doesn't make sense though, Koga and Yagrush is just as powerful/job changing as ergon weapons, and it's 1/3 of price to build. Someone on BG just posted 15 mythics in his inv, gonna collect them all!

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He was probably a blinkionare lol. Probably has more to do with having capped gil and boredom and how long mythics have been out than actual ease/cost to make ergons

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Originally Posted by Afania

This doesn't make sense though, Koga and Yagrush is just as powerful/job changing as ergon weapons, and it's 1/3 of price to build. Someone on BG just posted 15 mythics in his inv, gonna collect them all!

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Well, Ergon weapons once finished are 119... So lets compare them to 119 Mythics.

First you have 30,000 Alex, at 8k a pop, is roughly 240,000,000 Gil. Then, you need 5 Mulciber's Scoria, which if you can even find, are going to price you around 6-15 mil based on your server... lets middle ground that to about 10mil, meaning an additional 50 mil. So a Mythic is going to cost you 290,000,000 gil, this isn't including time invested in redoing the Assaults and such, since Ergons have some time invested too.

Ergon weapons require... 100 + 500 + 2500 + 9999 for all stages, totalling 13,099 HPB... which are 10-50k realistically, but I'll average 30k for the calculation here. 392,970,000... Next, the items that you need for each stage, I'm removing the Stones from the equation as pricing them is hard to do, and for at least Ghastly/Verd, you can get a lot of them through Sparks (Trading Kupons for Onyx Fragments)

Rockfin Tooth, Gabbrath Meat - 1,150,000
Waktza Crest, Yggdreant Bole, Cehuetzi Pelt - 2.5mil give or take.
a Pristine Yggrete Crystal - 2.5mil Plasm, which is about 8 Yggdreant boles worth, which is about 8mil itself, but this is more opportunity cost so i wont add it to the equation.

At the end of the day, a Ergon Weapon will cost you in the range of... 396,000,000. Give or take about 100 Million more than a Mythic to 119. So in conclusion, this is the breakdown of price cost, plus or minus a few things, and I have no doubt Ergon would break 400 Mil if i include price of the Stones and gil lost trading in 2.5mil plasm.

Mythic: 290,000,000
Ergon: 396,000,000

Alexandrites were 20-25k each for months after Mythics came out and stabilized at around 12-16k for years only dropping to 8-10k recently with Salvage v2 and being able to enter solo. HP Bayld will drop in price when the novelty wears off. One problem is people don't do reives anymore because there's no more incentive(last was job capes) people just use Home Points and Waypoints to get where they need.

Perhaps by adding additional unique equipment to Reives, people will do them again. Job specific earrings? Rings? Necks? Adding these incrementally every few months will make people spam Reives and thus more HP Bayld will come to the market. At least people did Salvage for equipment if they didn't need Alexandrite, there's little incentive to do Reives for HP Bayld to sell if you aren't making an Ergon Weapon because Bayld is very cheap and there's relatively few things to purchase with them(most of the Traditional Armor and Traditional Weapons are very obsolete to most players who have delve and skirmish equipment, leaving most players with millions of bayld and nothing to spend it on except HP Bayld, which isn't a very good return for them either.

At least there is a way to turn Bayld into HQ Bayld.

Alas, my voidstones and tears don't turn into HMPs and Cinders nearly often enough...

I would definitely consider a WHM Yagrush or SAM Koga more game changing than a RUN's in terms of party dynamics and endgame application. But I guess this does have alot to do with endgame job desirability. RUNs and or GEO do not see endgame opportunity while PLD and BRD continue to dominate over those cookie-cutter job slots.

So really, making Ergon weapons so much harder to get than other job Mythics, given that those jobs already outperform RUN/GEO without Mythics, was either a major blunder on SEs part or shear job discrimination. Either way it shows a complete lack of awareness about the current state of this game.

This is not the year 2008, the server economies are in shambles since the fishing nerf, unless you were a fish botter that had amassed capped gil, people just don't have that kind of currency anymore to make these weapons. Everyone here is undercutting each other on Alex and Delve boss items just to scrap by.

This was not the time to introduce two weapons that would cost 400mil to produce, for two jobs that no one wants to chance bringing to endgame events. The correct approach would have been to make these much easier to get, so GEO/RUN could get up to par and only then maybe, just maybe, people's mindsets might start to shift to not always shouting for PLD and BRDs and being open to trying the new jobs for those traditional roles.

Shame is, GEO is really game-breaking with Idris/Bell... Can provide quite insane buffs/debuffs.

Well I think the shame is that even if they had made Idris let you have 2 luopons out or RUNs Epeolatry have 4 runes, you know what, I'd still be seeing the same shouts, day in, day out <<PLD, 3-song+ BRD, WHM, RNG, MNK>> (do you have it?)

I didn't realize people actually used HP Bayld. I've been throwing mine away.

Can't you buy it with regular Bayld?

If you've been throwing it away, you've essentially been throwing away 30k per HP Bayld.

Wonder how much gil you've tossed :D

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Originally Posted by Sapphire

At least there is a way to turn Bayld into HQ Bayld.

Alas, my voidstones and tears don't turn into HMPs and Cinders nearly often enough...

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If SE let me finish my Empys using HP bayld, I would hold a street party and buy expensive drinks and luxury BBQ for everyone.

I got like 4000 HP bayld without trying *at all* just half asleep in Lair Rieves/Colo rieves/WKR , trading in useless bayld from easy coalition assignments. All on solo, unlike my empys which require thousands of alliance runs, and yield 99% trees/fish/meds with capped proc lights and capped KI's.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Shame is, GEO is really game-breaking with Idris/Bell... Can provide quite insane buffs/debuffs.

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A good Idris Geo is pretty ridiculous already. I'm excited for the buffs coming on Tuesday, depending on what they do, the job is gonna be near OP. It already feels that way at times.

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Originally Posted by Stompa

I got like 4000 HP bayld without trying *at all* just half asleep in Lair Rieves/Colo rieves/WKR , trading in useless bayld from easy coalition assignments. All on solo, unlike my empys which require thousands of alliance runs, and yield 99% trees/fish/meds with capped proc lights and capped KI's.

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Wow, I'm lucky if I see 1 HP Bayld every 4 Colonization Rieve. So for me to get 4000 would be equivalent to 16,000 Colo runs. Or 4000 WKR, or 4000 Legend level Scouts Coalition runs (best one so far with 3 Imps yields 11k Bayld).

You must be really busy not trying "at all" lol

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Originally Posted by Tinytimtaru

Wow, I'm lucky if I see 1 HP Bayld every 4 Colonization Rieve. So for me to get 4000 would be equivalent to 16,000 Colo runs. Or 4000 WKR, or 4000 Legend level Scouts Coalition runs (best one so far with 3 Imps yields 11k Bayld).

You must be really busy not trying "at all" lol

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I had like 8m bayld before the HP version up, so I just spent that on HP.

I get HP all day long on easy lair rieves. And they are like 5 min repop lol.

And I spam legend assignments too. It all adds up. I sold all my HP for 16k each.

And the point I was making was that its all super easy solo content which drops HP, unlike VW which is alliance+proc and has a terrible drop rate.

Seriously if SE let me choose HP instead of HMP/cinders for my empys, I would light fireworks and dance around for joy. :P

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Originally Posted by Malithar

You're on Bahamut, where are you getting the idea that the demand is so high?

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I probably should have specified that I meant relatively high, with them being still newish and all. I didn't mean to imply that there were hundreds of people tripping over each other lining up to get their weapons but demand is probably as high as it's ever going to be without changes to the ease of obtaining them. As time goes on and HP bayld becomes rarer and rarer more and more people will drop out of the race and try to cut their loses and they'll go the same route as Empyrean weapons. That's what happens when you attach upgrade items that you literally need thousands of to content that you need multiple people to do and have them drop only 1~20 at a time.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

If you've been throwing it away, you've essentially been throwing away 30k per HP Bayld.

Wonder how much gil you've tossed :D

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Probably not a huge amount. I'd estimate I've tossed no more than 5. I like to solo XP sometimes down in Outer Ra'Kaznar, but there's a Colonization Reive that's always getting in my way. I've gotten several HP Bayld which I didn't want to bother bazaaring and like 9 JSE capes in the process.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Well, Ergon weapons once finished are 119... So lets compare them to 119 Mythics.

First you have 30,000 Alex, at 8k a pop, is roughly 240,000,000 Gil. Then, you need 5 Mulciber's Scoria, which if you can even find, are going to price you around 6-15 mil based on your server... lets middle ground that to about 10mil, meaning an additional 50 mil. So a Mythic is going to cost you 290,000,000 gil, this isn't including time invested in redoing the Assaults and such, since Ergons have some time invested too.

Ergon weapons require... 100 + 500 + 2500 + 9999 for all stages, totalling 13,099 HPB... which are 10-50k realistically, but I'll average 30k for the calculation here. 392,970,000... Next, the items that you need for each stage, I'm removing the Stones from the equation as pricing them is hard to do, and for at least Ghastly/Verd, you can get a lot of them through Sparks (Trading Kupons for Onyx Fragments)

Rockfin Tooth, Gabbrath Meat - 1,150,000
Waktza Crest, Yggdreant Bole, Cehuetzi Pelt - 2.5mil give or take.
a Pristine Yggrete Crystal - 2.5mil Plasm, which is about 8 Yggdreant boles worth, which is about 8mil itself, but this is more opportunity cost so i wont add it to the equation.

At the end of the day, a Ergon Weapon will cost you in the range of... 396,000,000. Give or take about 100 Million more than a Mythic to 119. So in conclusion, this is the breakdown of price cost, plus or minus a few things, and I have no doubt Ergon would break 400 Mil if i include price of the Stones and gil lost trading in 2.5mil plasm.

Mythic: 290,000,000
Ergon: 396,000,000

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PW drop is 3, not 5. Alex cost 7.5k on my server, that's 225,000,000. Scoria cost 7.5M on my server as well, so that's 247M per mythic.

Ergon needs to farm legendary rank and plasm as well, so you can't really argue that Ergon needs less time if you have gil.

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Originally Posted by dasva

I think you are underestimating how powerful run/geo mythics are.... probably because you are trying to compare performances on those jobs with them instead of the weapons themselves. And well both jobs are kinda flawed compared to their counter parts

RUN mythic is probably the better DD weapon out there, gswds have the most dmg ws out there right now and even it's ergon ws is really strong AND the best defensive weapon in the game by miles... it's just on a job that doesn't have DD traits or job abilities and spends a lot of it's time using jas and spells instead of meleeing. I'd be drks best weapon if they could equip it.

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Last time I checked spreadsheet, using TP/WS set posted on AH forum, RUN ergon weapon with AM3 spamming reso can only do around 85% of dmg of Tsuru SAM on same target under same buff. I didn't add lunge/swipe dmg, but it has long recast time and you need runes to do it, which lowers DPS to put them back up, so I didn't calculate it.

A koga SAM can do a lot more than Tsuru SAM, and if you count the DPS lose to get 300 TP to activate(RUN probably get TP slower than SAM, mind you), then ergon GS is no where close to Koga's dmg. You can' compare DPS directly and say ergon GS is stronger DD weapon than mythic.

It's more of a tank weapon than DD weapon, if you want a DD weapon you'd build koga for cheaper price. It's certainly job changing enough to justify the price, but so does better mythics(which are cheaper)

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Originally Posted by Stompa

I had like 8m bayld before the HP version up, so I just spent that

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As did I, that got me 8 stacks of 99 HP..... out of 132 stacks of HP needed to take this quest to conclusion. Drain every resource you have, spend all the gil you can, this will barely put a dent in the number of HPs required.

2 JPs i know on my server have actually finished theirs. From what I hear their entire LS donated all their Bayld to help them accomplish this. Now that I think about it, SE maybe made these with that type of cultural mindset in place. If so they sure did underestimate North American player mentality then lol. Its way more, every man for himself.

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Originally Posted by Tinytimtaru

As did I, that got me 8 stacks of 99 HP..... out of 132 stacks of HP needed to take this quest to conclusion. Drain every resource you have, spend all the gil you can, this will barely put a dent in the number of HPs required.

2 JPs i know on my server have actually finished theirs. From what I hear their entire LS donated all their Bayld to help them accomplish this. Now that I think about it, SE maybe made these with that type of cultural mindset in place. If so they sure did underestimate North American player mentality then lol. Its way more, every man for himself.

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Well, 400m gil without LS donation is pretty doable if you're hardcore. It's just......a bit more gil than mythic for same weapon class.

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Originally Posted by Afania

PW drop is 3, not 5. Alex cost 7.5k on my server, that's 225,000,000. Scoria cost 7.5M on my server as well, so that's 247M per mythic.

Ergon needs to farm legendary rank and plasm as well, so you can't really argue that Ergon needs less time if you have gil.

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I hit the "Show All" List on FFXIAH and went from there, averaging the prices on all servers as to be fair. Otherwise at the time I posted it, there was 1 seller on Asura for Mulcib Scoria... for 10mil.

That said, I had assumed PW drops were 5, same as Relic, didn't bother to look :\

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Originally Posted by Afania

Last time I checked spreadsheet, using TP/WS set posted on AH forum, RUN ergon weapon with AM3 spamming reso can only do around 85% of dmg of Tsuru SAM on same target under same buff. I didn't add lunge/swipe dmg, but it has long recast time and you need runes to do it, which lowers DPS to put them back up, so I didn't calculate it.

A koga SAM can do a lot more than Tsuru SAM, and if you count the DPS lose to get 300 TP to activate(RUN probably get TP slower than SAM, mind you), then ergon GS is no where close to Koga's dmg. You can' compare DPS directly and say ergon GS is stronger DD weapon than mythic.

It's more of a tank weapon than DD weapon, if you want a DD weapon you'd build koga for cheaper price. It's certainly job changing enough to justify the price, but so does better mythics(which are cheaper)

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I agree, least I think I do!

Comparing something like RUN/GEO Ergons to DD Mythics in terms of raw damage output is a meaningless comparisons, Since RUN/GEO Mythics are more closely like Yagrush and Burtgang, and those are not used for the DD potential, but for the utility...while its DPS is a nice bonus, its real potential and power comes from PDTII-25%, allowing RUN to get -75% PDT with it.

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Originally Posted by Stompa

I had like 8m bayld before the HP version up, so I just spent that on HP.

I get HP all day long on easy lair rieves. And they are like 5 min repop lol.

And I spam legend assignments too. It all adds up. I sold all my HP for 16k each.

And the point I was making was that its all super easy solo content which drops HP, unlike VW which is alliance+proc and has a terrible drop rate.

Seriously if SE let me choose HP instead of HMP/cinders for my empys, I would light fireworks and dance around for joy. :P

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As an Idris owner (and someone who personally farmed over 20 million bayld outside of drops/purchases) I think you're exaggerating your HPB rate. Looking back at my 2+ months of farming bayld/HPB, Lair reives where I was soloing the reive from 100-0% were about a 3-4% drop rate for HPB and colonization reives were a bit better, somewhere between 9-17% depending on the area. You do occasionally get runs where you're hitting 3+ HPB in a row from reives but those were anomalies. And continuous farming of bayld/HPB is possible, but none of it is terribly efficient.

Legend assignments? Let's take a best-case scenario where you already have the imprimatur timer down to 5 hours and get max bayld per assignment (Dho/Woh Gates Peacekeeper's, 5000 xp/bayld for 1 imprimatur) you get ~33 assignments per week * 5000 bayld is 165000 - or 16 HPB. More realistically you're doing Courier's Drifts to Biv#4 for 4750/assignment and getting 156750 (15HPB)/week. Every little bit helps, sure, but a week of assignments gets you one tenth of one percent of the way to an Ergon.

There are a few places where you can bounce between Lair Reives if you can drop them fast enough (I preferred the lairs in Foret between Bivs #3 and #4) which gives you two lairs every five minutes. The deeper Foret lairs give you an average of 2500 bayld/reive as long as you're alone (2000 for the #3 reive, 3000 for the #4 reive) so that's 5000 every 5 minutes. That's 60000 bayld/hour plus whatever lucky HPB drops you get. That's decent, but I found it better when nobody was in the zone to do a full clear of the 10 Colonization Reives around Foret and then hit the Lairs while you wait for the Colos to repop. Each Colo is ~3000 by itself alongside a better HPB droprate, plus you get another two easy lairs by the FS that give 1000/1500. A full Foret run takes less than a half hour and yields ~37500 bayld + the 30000 from a half hour of lair bouncing.

If you just want Colo reives/want to make cash outside of the HPB you can do the Ra'Kaznar Colos since they have a 15 minute repop. You have a ~3-4 minute walk between the two reives but generally you can kill both before the first one repops. That reive also ends up giving ~6000 bayld and a much higher HPB drop rate (plus those high-value Ra'ka heads) so a lower bayld/hr rate of 48000 might be something you're OK with. This also has the benefit of being a long enough reive that having other people there generally doesn't cut into your personal bayld count all that much.

Overall I think HPB/bayld conversions in general are in an odd sort of spot. HPB doesn't have much of a use for at least 95% of the current playerbase (and I think I may be underestimating it considering the current # of completed Ergon weapons across servers) so the price should be low. On the flip side, dedicated bayld farming - unlike other types of currency farming like Dynamis and Salvage - provides a much lower raw number, no real benefit for non-WKR outside of the bayld (capes are ok, but most people likely already have the ones they want) and actively penalizes having more than a few people doing it at the same time due to repop timers. Due to that, plus the apathy of the general server population to actually farm it, that keeps prices high, especially for those who DO farm a lot of it and understand that bulk sales will be valued higher since buyers hate picking through bazaars for random 1-2 HPB sales.

As Ophannus said, I think a push to add more incentive to doing reives could help. Maybe the rush for Alluvion Skirmish parts will help with that for a time. We'll see next week!

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Originally Posted by Jadey

As an Idris owner (and someone who personally farmed over 20 million bayld outside of drops/purchases) I think you're exaggerating your HPB rate.

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Well to be fair I never counted the HPB total as I was just giving them to a RUN friend for free, and selling them at 16k.
However, I certainly counted selling/giving away over 30 stacks, my guess would be 3500-4000 HP total.

Also re; rieves, yesterday I got HP in three lair rieves in a row, with a 5~ minute interval. Then no HP on the next one. Then a 4th HP on the 5th lair rieve. That's 4 HP in 30~ minutes. Maybe I'm "lucky" that HP drops to me, but I don't see it that way - I want simulcra and capes.

Also if you do WKR, if you kill a lot of mobs you end up with lots of bayld from that, which you can convert to HP.

As a side note, after obtaining 25~ HP yesterday morning, solo, without breaking a sweat, I then joined an Uptala x12 run, with capped KI and capped proc lights, result : zero HMP to me. A few other people got pouches. But my Empys got no progress at all after 12 alliance battles, trading cells, proccing the mob, warping to get more stones, tossing junk, selling logs, buying more cells, trekking back to mob etc.. And all for nothing, zero progress on my weapon. And this is normal - its just normal luck-based empy Failwatch process. At least if you get 10 HPB or something you feel like "I've made progress on my weapon" even if it is small progress - VW is just this barrage of "zero progress" runs.

So my point really does stand, I would farm all the HP in the world for my empy, instead of hmp/rifts, if it were possible.

* Edited for brevity.

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Originally Posted by Stompa

Also re; rieves, yesterday I got HP in three lair rieves in a row, with a 5~ minute interval. Then no HP on the next one. Then a 4th HP on the 5th lair rieve. That's 4 HP in 30~ minutes. Maybe I'm "lucky" that HP drops to me, but I don't see it that way - I want simulcra and capes.

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Yes, that's pretty much the definition of luck. If that's a typical run for you, congrats, you're going to be finishing your plates mighty quick if there's even one dedicated HPB buyer on Levi. Sell the HPB and buy the plates/simulacra. Honestly, if you farmed up somewhere between 20 and 30 million bayld (plus your HPB drops/Legend assignments) I'm confused that you aren't capped on capes since I hit 22/22 + extras shipped to mules around the 7-8 million farmed mark.

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Also if you do WKR, if you kill a lot of mobs you end up with lots of bayld from that, which you can convert to HP.

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This is a pretty common fallacy. Here are the issues with using WKR to farm personal bayld/HPB:

- The KI costs 15k bayld, so any bayld gains have to be weighed against that
- WKR bayld caps at 25k + the final ~2750, so your maximum net bayld gain is 12750
- To get to the bayld cap, the WKR has to last long enough. If you're following a large group, you may not get to the cap in time. If the group is too small, you hit the cap at 50% and spend the rest of the time fighting for no reward. I suppose you could leave once you cap, re-obtain the KI and go for more, but that seems overly complicated.
- You are all but guaranteed one HPB, but the box drop rate is beyond abysmal. Beyond 6F Salvage linen abysmal.

All in all, a 'good' WKR will get you a net of 22750 bayld (counting the HPB from the end) with a snowball's chance of a 3-15 count box. You could count the other people who now have HPB to sell, but you'd then also have to count your Uptala mates who got pouches as potential sellers since a 12-man Uptala run is going to come away with an average of 1 pouch dropping to at least one member of the run every 2 kills. That 12x Uptala group will average ~6 pouches across the alliance with an average of 9 plates per pouch. That's 54 plates either entering the sale market or getting someone closer to not being in the market anymore. That's roughly equal to 473 HPB in terms of how close that gets somebody to finishing. The numbers get even more lopsided if that Uptala group is full - each run has a ~67% chance of somebody getting a pouch. That maths out to ~72 plates or the equivalent 631 HPB.

This doesn't even touch the issue of pure supply. I see enough plates on Levi at 200k or less to get 45% done from zero. At the same time, there's enough HPB in bazaars at any price (100k/each even!) to get... 1.4% done. HPB buyers don't run into the issue of cost as much as the run into the fact that there just aren't many to buy. When I was at ~1500 to go until I finished, I raised my price and shouted for people to convert their full bayld stores. It still took over a dozen people to finish because the average person isn't running reives. They aren't diligent with their assignments. They can't do an instanced fight that takes a few minutes per run for a chance at a nice payday or an instanced zone that guarantees them 100+ currency when they succeed to get HPB. Bayld in general is worthless enough not to farm but ALSO worthless enough not to get rid of on the off chance that it has value in the future.

Even your zero-sweat 25 HPB morning, at general market HPB value, is about equal to a bog standard Arrapago II run - a run that takes an hour or less. And if you're going to respond that you hit that 25 HPB in an hour, then you're sitting on a goldmine and I hope nobody on your server starts shadowing you and eating into your profits while you corner the HPB market.

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At least if you get 10 HPB or something you feel like "I've made progress on my weapon" even if it is small progress.

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Getting 10 HPB, considering the amount needed, is about the same as leaving Voidwatch with 12 runs full of logs and stones that you NPC. That's .07% progress.

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So my point really does stand, I would farm all the HP in the world for my empy, instead of hmp/rifts, if it were possible.

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Why isn't it? Farm that easy HPB, sell it to desperate, supply constrained Ergon buyers, use it to buy the larger amounts of plates and cinders other people are lucky enough to get.

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Originally Posted by Jadey

Yes, that's pretty much the definition of luck. If that's a typical run for you, congrats, you're going to be finishing your plates mighty quick if there's even one dedicated HPB buyer on Levi.

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Well HP sit unsold in bazaars all day long at 23k/e.

I put it at 16k because at 20k+ it doesnt sell. So the hordes of desperate HP buyers you are alluding to, are nowhere to be seen.

Plates are 150k~200k. So 10 HP would get me 1 plate. x1500. And thats even assuming ppl are rushing my bazaar to buy HP which theyre not.

I'm at 400 hmp and thats from grinding vw plus some gifts / purchases. You seem to miss my whole point, about being able to solo hp, but needing to grind alliance runs for hmp which then dont even drop most of the time. You focus a lot on the fact I got hp bayld drops, and make smart remarks about me cornering markets etc. You miss the point - I do rieves for other things including ROE clears / repeat sparks etc. I just seem to get a lot of hp drops. I got like 8hp just doing seekers missions and clearing rieves in my way.

Re; capes, I had every jse cape in the game and rage tossed all of them except war. Now I'm playing some other jobs again so I'm out farming capes again.

I resent the overly critical nature of your responses to me - you miss the point I was making entirely, which is I dont want to buy my plates and cinders, or waste thousands of hours in vw alliances when no plates drop. I was pointing out how lucky ergon players are that they can solo farm their hp, with a regular drop rate - a little progress every hour - as opposed to alliance vw grind which can just cold stall your weapon-building progress through no fault of your own.

I was originally responding to the earlier poster who said the same thing about hp / hmp. I agreed with them and just say I would literally party in the street and dance for joy, if I could solo easy prey content for hp and finish my empy that way, because I've given away 1000hp for free to a run friend and sold another 2500~ hp for chump change bcoz nobody wants to buy the stuff at 20k lol.

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Originally Posted by Afania

Last time I checked spreadsheet, using TP/WS set posted on AH forum, RUN ergon weapon with AM3 spamming reso can only do around 85% of dmg of Tsuru SAM on same target under same buff. I didn't add lunge/swipe dmg, but it has long recast time and you need runes to do it, which lowers DPS to put them back up, so I didn't calculate it.

A koga SAM can do a lot more than Tsuru SAM, and if you count the DPS lose to get 300 TP to activate(RUN probably get TP slower than SAM, mind you), then ergon GS is no where close to Koga's dmg. You can' compare DPS directly and say ergon GS is stronger DD weapon than mythic.

It's more of a tank weapon than DD weapon, if you want a DD weapon you'd build koga for cheaper price. It's certainly job changing enough to justify the price, but so does better mythics(which are cheaper)

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You probably missed the first part where I said people were comparing what jobs with those weapons can do and not the weapons itself...

That would be like saying Rangnarok is a horrible weapon by comparing Koga sam to a pld using Rag lol

Not really sure what people were expecting from it... it takes care of RUNs problem with physical dmg making it an excellent tank and ups it's dmg capabilities a lot... did people really expect it to make RUN a top tier DD as well as a tank or something?

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Originally Posted by Afania

PW drop is 3, not 5. Alex cost 7.5k on my server, that's 225,000,000. Scoria cost 7.5M on my server as well, so that's 247M per mythic.

Ergon needs to farm legendary rank and plasm as well, so you can't really argue that Ergon needs less time if you have gil.

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And here I can easily HPs for 20k which would bring ergon down to 265mil ish.

As far as time a lot of people have been at least getting some rank up since it is the current content and possibly storing tags so if you had been keeping up you probably already had almost legend. Regardless ranking up the coalitions also has the advantage of getting you the balyd.

Are ergons harder to make than mythics at this moment? Sure are but the difference isn't that big

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Originally Posted by Stompa

I resent the overly critical nature of your responses to me - you miss the point I was making entirely, which is I dont want to buy my plates and cinders, or waste thousands of hours in vw alliances when no plates drop. I was pointing out how lucky ergon players are that they can solo farm their hp, with a regular drop rate - a little progress every hour - as opposed to alliance vw grind which can just cold stall your weapon-building progress through no fault of your own.

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Besides being overly critical of your HPB numbers (TBH, they remind me of the numbers a botter on my server quoted me he got from botting reives overnight) being realistic, you seem to be missing Jadey's point. HMPs do drop from VW, whether they drop to you or not, that's a whole nother story. Fact is, they're added to the market, and you can usually buy them cheap right there on the spot.

The fact that you don't want to pay for them has no real barring on it. In a perfect world, I would of preferred to not pay for the HPBs for Idris, either. But guess what? I did, because like you, I didn't want to spend thousands of hours grinding reives. Buck up, pay up, and get'er done, ya know? Or keep whining and hope you get a pouch or two on that next Uptala. Either works in the long run I suppose.

Why one farm 20m bayld to begin with is what I am most curious about o.O Premonition? I don't remember anything to justify the extreme bayld farming before ergon weapons...

I swear you people moan just for the sake of it, or it's like you haven't played the game for years hp-bayld is new so the price is higher right now, in time it will settle lower.

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Originally Posted by Vinedrai

Why one farm 20m bayld to begin with is what I am most curious about o.O Premonition? I don't remember anything to justify the extreme bayld farming before ergon weapons...

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I didn't, but it always seemed kind of obvious to me that in some form the Ergons would use Bayld in some sense, and assaults would be replaced with assignment stuff - since they're mythic equivs.