Haste II and SMN

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...940#post512940

So Puppetmaster is getting Haste II made available to them, but why not Summoner in some way? Garuda's Hastega has now been rendered absolete; a nerf to our usefulness in parties. A lot of our buffs are already falling behind in power and not being updated, but adding another to the list isn't helping.

I'm surprised SE thought about Puppetmaster, but didn't make any changes for Summoner. The only thing that gives me hope is this, which probably doesn't even mean too much for us:

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On another note, though I can’t get into too much detail at the moment, we are planning to make adjustments for the abilities that are performed by beastmaster pets, automatons, wyverns, and avatars.

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I figured Haste II was gonna be a Red Mage only thing and that's how it should be, but if PUP is gonna get it, why doesn't SMN? We aren't in much of a different situation. I understand that this is intended to be a buff to RDM usefulness, and while we may not deserve to get the power of Haste II, this does hurt us indirectly quite badly. :\

I doubt pup will get invited for their haste 2 effects, but I wouldn't mind seeing SMN receive some new avatar abilities. Something that would debuff mobs. I really like the accuracy of SMN's debuffs now so some more would be really neat.

The update to PUP surprised the hell out of me too, but it wont make much of a difference since Stormwaker head only casts on the master. More haste on ourselves still wont get us invites. 90% of the time I use Sharpshot anyway, since it can function well without constant maneuver spam for mp and what not.
I haven't played SMN in long while, but I agree that Garuda should get this buff too.
And I hope that quote in the OP's post does mean some good changes for all pets are coming.

I'm not too worried.

So we're not getting "the best haste", we're still the only job that can AoE it and its duration is only second to Scholar.
That said, Haste is not our only utility and summoners are actually used for several endgame events.

BLU seems to be getting it as well. No details on whether it will be the same potency or not, but they're certainly getting a haste that is more potent than 15%

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Originally Posted by Shirai

I'm not too worried.

So we're not getting "the best haste", we're still the only job that can AoE it and its duration is only second to Scholar.
That said, Haste is not our only utility and summoners are actually used for several endgame events.

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Both bard and corsair have AOE haste/weapon delay- abilities.
Our buffs have pretty much stopped scaling well before 75 in strength, or never scaled at all beyond the middling output they started with.
It's literally as if the entire job is living off of bloodpacts from the level 75 cap era, and the damage gap just got massive again due to the increase in WS output.

As is, as a nirvana smn with capped skill, -bp/-bpII, +bp damage and the like, i cannot keep pace with the damage, speed or buffs of (almost) any other job in the game geared at the same tier as me.

I don't disagree with the scaling part, but Haste(ga) still stacks with Marches and other melee speed increasing buffs.
(Although you will have to tell me which Corsair roll increases attack speed because I can't find it.)

Apart from that, I have never seen Summoner as a fully fledged DD job nor a full buffing/support role.
Our strength lies not in one single role, but versatility and adaptability.

We can heal, we can buff, we can debuff, we can deal damage with minimal enmity gain and we can do crowd control.
Sure, some of our buffing Blood pact can surely use a boost, but even if they are not getting one this update a few spells given to other jobs aren't going to change other things we still excell at.

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Originally Posted by Shirai

I don't disagree with the scaling part, but Haste(ga) still stacks with Marches and other melee speed increasing buffs.
(Although you will have to tell me which Corsair roll increases attack speed because I can't find it.)

Apart from that, I have never seen Summoner as a fully fledged DD job nor a full buffing/support role.
Our strength lies not in one single role, but versatility and adaptability.

We can heal, we can buff, we can debuff, we can deal damage with minimal enmity gain and we can do crowd control.
Sure, some of our buffing Blood pact can surely use a boost, but even if they are not getting one this update a few spells given to other jobs aren't going to change other things we still excell at.

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Blitzer's roll.

And aside from healing, a corsair can buff, debuff, and do crowd control... All the while dancing circles around our buffs, our damage output, and can even parse at the top of DD. A comparative cor to me would have mythic, the +5 ring and the like.

Enjoy Camate's post today. :P Guess they're going to spread Haste II as widely as they can to try and combat the reliance on Brd for capping magic haste. Geo, Smn, Rdm, maybe even Blu (10 min duration on Erratic to hold out til Diffusion CD? Nahhhh....) are looking to be able to supply alternative forms of magic haste.

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Originally Posted by Frodnon

Blitzer's roll.

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Thanks, I overlooked that one. But I can't remember the last time we used that over other options either.

That said, Corsair's crowd control capabilities cannot be compared to ours.
They only have Light shot at their disposal for that, we can move an entire swarm of adds off of a pull and make the critters forget that they were even chasing someone.
Sleepers will have to babysit the slept adds to prevent being eaten while we do one AoE, seperate the adds from the main baddy, release avatar and walk away.

As for DD capabilities, no offense but Summoner has never been a top DD, ever.
Our capability in that lies, as I have mentioned before, in doing it with minimal enmity generated towards the player.

That said, while I am not in disagreement that some of our buffs could use some scaling, what are you so afraid of?
Not being needed? Well, Summoner's always been like that.

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Originally Posted by Malithar

Enjoy Camate's post today. :P Guess they're going to spread Haste II as widely as they can to try and combat the reliance on Brd for capping magic haste. Geo, Smn, Rdm, maybe even Blu (10 min duration on Erratic to hold out til Diffusion CD? Nahhhh....) are looking to be able to supply alternative forms of magic haste.

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Might I inquire where he said this?
None of today's (English) DEV posts by Camate appear to be mentioning Summoner anywhere.

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Originally Posted by Shirai

Might I inquire where he said this?
None of today's (English) DEV posts by Camate appear to be mentioning Summoner anywhere.

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Most people try to read jp community rep replies via google translate since parts are usually left out on the "official" translation but here is the comment:

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Originally Posted by Lomloon

まだ少し先の予定となりますが、「ヘイスガII」だけでなく各召喚獣に履行を追加していく計画です。
また「神獣の加護」の調整も検討しており、召喚士がパーティの補助をする手段を
増やしていければと考えています。



先ほどお伝えした新履行より先に「オォォォォォーーーン！」の召喚獣を追加します。
以前の投稿でお伝えしたとおり、かなりのボリュームのクエストを伴うためお待たせしておりますが、
9月のバージョンアップにて追加予定ですのでもうしばらくお待ちください。

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Second part is about Atomos in September.

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Originally Posted by Mnejing

Most people try to read jp community rep replies via google translate since parts are usually left out on the "official" translation but here is the comment:

Second part is about Atomos in September.

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Ah, I see it there indeed.
Malothar specifically mentioned Camate, who's post didn't mention summoner anywhere.

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Originally Posted by Shirai

Ah, I see it there indeed.
Malothar specifically mentioned Camate, who's post didn't mention summoner anywhere.

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Just in reference to the post that he's going to make. Didn't wanna spoil too much, it's his job after all, and who doesn't just absolutely love their job? ;)

What is it that google translate is translating as "the saving grace of god beast"? I love weird autotranslates XD

Even as a BRD I am very happy to see other jobs get a boost to buffing. I really hope it increases the number of set ups that are workable and more people get to play their favourite jobs in serious content. I sure hope erratic flutter is full haste 2 - even if the duration is just like 3 mins so it isn't really great for diffusion, it would be nice as a self buff.

Anyway, I sure hope SMN can share the haste love!

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Originally Posted by Olor

What is it that google translate is translating as "the saving grace of god beast"? I love weird autotranslates XD

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That would be Avatar's favor, last post we got about avatar's favor adjustments was in back in April I found Camate's post here.

You rang? :D

While I can’t speak in too much detail about the adjustments that will be made to summoner, I’d like to give an overview on what the development team has in mind.

In the future we will be adding new Blood Pacts for avatars, one example of what they are planning to add is Hastega II. Additionally, they would like to make adjustments to Avatar’s Favor and also increase the ways that summoner can support other party members.

In terms of new avatars, the team is planning to release Atomos in the September version update.

I just wonder if we're getting those new blood pacts in July or August... or later?

Either way, thanks for the update.

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Originally Posted by Camate

You rang? :D

While I can’t speak in too much detail about the adjustments that will be made to summoner, I’d like to give an overview on what the development team has in mind.

In the future we will be adding new Blood Pacts for avatars, one example of what they are planning to add is Hastega II. Additionally, they would like to make adjustments to Avatar’s Favor and also increase the ways that summoner can support other party members.

In terms of new avatars, the team is planning to release Atomos in the September version update.

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rdms enjoy your utility while it lasts, it appears haste 2 will be replaced with Hastega 2 in endgame builds very quickly.

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

rdms enjoy your utility while it lasts, it appears haste 2 will be replaced with Hastega 2 in endgame builds very quickly.

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If our only utility is based on Haste II then that's a solid indication we have way bigger problems than SMN getting the AoE version of it.

So SMN can do what in one move when RDM can do in like 30 seconds. How many DDs in a typical DD party, 3? 20 second recast, but with self haste and haste gear, can get it down to a low recast plus Spontenity. Should last a good 8ish minutes with gear and Composure too. But, RDM will offer other things like eva down+grav2 which would let melees eat meat and wear less acc gear(potentially -80-100 evasion when stacked. If it's like Blind/Blind II it'll be -20/-30.

Saboteur on NM with AF3 hands is a 2.1x bonus and AF3 body+Uxkaj Feet is x1.15 so 2.25 multiplier combined. So if the base of Distract II is -30 evasion, it will be -67.5 evasion. Gravity II is -40. -107.5 evasion is monumental. DDs could drop all their acc so that they're swinging at 50% hit rate, toss on the above debuffs and their hit rate jumps from 50% to 95% cap.

and that's how i feel they are buffing every job but the job most people like playing(sometimes)

@Oph, all you say is true, and much of it is already in place. all that being said, I still haven't seen a recruiting shout for a rdm in a PUG for end-game content since the 1st release of Abyssea, and I play roughly 350 days a year for several hours every day. you would think I would have seen at least 1 in that time but really, not a single 1. Plenty for sch, brd, mnk, and more recently rng and pld, but not one person has asked for a rdm. and that is why I say yes, the simple presence of Hastega II on smn will be enough to knock rdm out of the list of jobs eligible for end-game content, and that's assuming Haste II will be enough to let them in (not a safe bet).

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Originally Posted by Glamdring

@Oph, all you say is true, and much of it is already in place. all that being said, I still haven't seen a recruiting shout for a rdm in a PUG for end-game content since the 1st release of Abyssea, and I play roughly 350 days a year for several hours every day. you would think I would have seen at least 1 in that time but really, not a single 1. Plenty for sch, brd, mnk, and more recently rng and pld, but not one person has asked for a rdm. and that is why I say yes, the simple presence of Hastega II on smn will be enough to knock rdm out of the list of jobs eligible for end-game content, and that's assuming Haste II will be enough to let them in (not a safe bet).

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Wait, how many shouts have you seen for SMN?

I don't think that hastega II will be enough to get SMNs into end-game for PUGs, let alone enough to push RDMs out. And recently, since people seem to have noticed that there aren't many decently geared SCHs around for stunning, and that RDM can once again be used for stunning, I've seen a few shouts for SCH or RDM rather than just SCH.

Now my biggest question is these New Blood Pacts, Will they be copy and paste abilities only higher tiers and copious more amounts of MP, or will we see fixes for some of the one we have plus the new ones down the road?

Greetings,

While I gave the example of Hastega II, we’ll be introducing new offensive Blood Pacts as well for avatars, so rest assured that we will not be making adjustments to summoner only as a support-type job.

As there are a lot of avatars, it will be a bit difficult to add new Blood Pacts for each of them all at once, but we’ll be looking into adding them individually as we move forward.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,

While I gave the example of Hastega II, we’ll be introducing new offensive Blood Pacts as well for avatars, so rest assured that we will not be making adjustments to summoner only as a support-type job.

As there are a lot of avatars, it will be a bit difficult to add new Blood Pacts for each of them all at once, but we’ll be looking into adding them individually as we move forward.

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Thanks for the reply, but I was more so asking about the problem that we have currently. Such as Noctoshield and Earthen Ward, to name a few, being very much underpowered at their current standing. Even wards like Earthen Armor seems to fall short at times. I've seen a MNK on a Difficult run get nailed with a Eagle Eye Shot and be KO'd while having Earthen Armor on. Which is should be the 75% DMG of your Maximum HP lowered to 45% DMG. (And mind you, I'm above the cap for Summoning Magic)
Having offensive Blood Pacts will definitely be nice to change up some of our moveset, but they might want to also think about a few other things as well when doing it. Such as can we Skillchain with these? Being able to create a light or darkness skillchain with the party would be nice. Will there be a variant to the Blood Pacts type? Slashing, Piercing, Blunt on more than 1 avatar would be Awesome~!!

There's nothing wrong with Earthen Armor. Earthen Armor reduces the damage by 45%, not to 45%. People can still very much be one shotted if the damage, reduced by 45%, still exceeds the remainder of the player's current health pool. It's the same as Scherzo.

Noctoshield, Earthen Ward are fine examples of Blood Pacts that have fallen behind in the times. There are more as well, such as Ecliptic Growl. These have never been updated since the 75 cap, and thus are much weaker compared to buffs provided by other classes.

I hope that these blood pacts are added sooner rather than later (I don't want to wait super long Cait Sith style again :(), and I also hope that the "offensive blood pacts" they are mentioning adding are not simply for Cait Sith. I know we're already getting some more for Cait Sith, as it was mentioned when it was added to the game. I wasn't exactly expecting any new ones for the other avatars that aren't support (cool!) but I'm looking forward to any additions.

@Babs, not many shouts for smn but a few, yes. Despite the continual grumbling of traditional DDs and the like of how pet jobs aren't DD a pet jobs strat is often one of the 1st developed for any new end-game content. it's eventually ignored as the slightly faster zerg strat is developed, but that doesn't mean it isn't still viable. and smn is always going to be a possible job on new content without a defined cookie-cutter strat simply for Alex and PD. that being said, shouts for smn are also rare because the groups that will use them generally already HAVE their own in it. vs none for rdm, not since the level cap went to 80, even with refresh 2 (everything was in Aby then, who needed refresh?) no one was shouting for it, they asked for scholar if they had need for a multi-role job, and bard (or occasionally cor) if they needed MP--or much of anything else for that matter. No, I don't think Hastega 2 will likely be enough to put smn as a core job in the end-game mix just as haste 2 is probably not enough to put rdm in the mix, but I think hastega 2 makes smn more likely if either job will make it over long odds.

and note, I'm not saying all this to block smn from viability, just to lament that rdm STILL won't be viable as a desired job as it will still be outclassed in every needed party role by another job. I still don't see rdm becoming integral to an end-game strat unless a CS-Stun becomes core on a fight strat again and that simply doesn't seem likely with the boss mobs SE has been introducing for the last few years. And even if they did it still seems wrong for rdm to only get viability based off a spell that isn't even native but only available from a /sub...

How about you just get rid of Bloodpact Ward and Rage opening up all of the avatar abilities? I mean, keep the minute cooldown on each ability, but allow use of them all whenever we want. That would be a major improvement.

Greetings,

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Originally Posted by Zeargi

Thanks for the reply, but I was more so asking about the problem that we have currently. Such as Noctoshield and Earthen Ward, to name a few, being very much underpowered at their current standing. Even wards like Earthen Armor seems to fall short at times.

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While I can’t speak specifically about these Blood Pacts in particular, we will be looking into revamping the effects of Blood Pact: Ward overall.

As example, we’d like to boost the effects by having summoning skill and level play a larger role.

Once the plans have been solidified a bit more I’ll be sure to let you know!

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Originally Posted by Crevox

There's nothing wrong with Earthen Armor. Earthen Armor reduces the damage by 45%, not to 45%. People can still very much be one shotted if the damage, reduced by 45%, still exceeds the remainder of the player's current health pool. It's the same as Scherzo.

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That was a misunderstanding on my part. Thanks for the clarification.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,



While I can’t speak specifically about these Blood Pacts in particular, we will be looking into revamping the effects of Blood Pact: Ward overall.

As example, we’d like to boost the effects by having summoning skill and level play a larger role.

Once the plans have been solidified a bit more I’ll be sure to let you know!

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Wootga~!! This sounds promising.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings,



While I can’t speak specifically about these Blood Pacts in particular, we will be looking into revamping the effects of Blood Pact: Ward overall.

As example, we’d like to boost the effects by having summoning skill and level play a larger role.

Once the plans have been solidified a bit more I’ll be sure to let you know!

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Super pleased to hear SMN skill will play a level in the revamps, and that all BP:Ward are being looked into...

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...t-this-new-cap

I've given it some thought a while back, I hope this helps, at least a little.

So.. will Leviathan get Slowga II before Garuda receives Hastega II?

It's clear the dev team is working on job adjustments and balance across the board. It's just a matter of how much they can test and push out along with content to keep players interested in playing. I'm really excited to hear about SMN adjustments, it's a job I'm interested in leveling all the way through.

Side note - - I think Blue Mage is also getting Haste II. Or whatever Erratic Flutter will be..

Judging by the way BLU gets spells, probably haste 1.5, since blu had to use haste 0.66 (refueling) for years before animating wail was finally added.

I think Erratic Flutter has been shown to be 30% Haste, same as Haste II. I could be mixing up my reading thugh.

I have a bit more news to share for all of you summoners. :)

Did your party initiate a straddle formation for a large boss and your Blood Pacts just don’t reach everyone in the party? Well, the development team understands your woes, and they would like to make a slight increase to the range of support-type Blood Pacts to compensate for this.

Stay tuned for more details regarding the implementation timing and the specifics!

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Originally Posted by Camate

I have a bit more news to share for all of you summoners. :)

Did your party initiate a straddle formation for a large boss and your Blood Pacts just don’t reach everyone in the party? Well, the development team understands your woes, and they would like to make a slight increase to the range of support-type Blood Pacts to compensate for this.

Stay tuned for more details regarding the implementation timing and the specifics!

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SMNs are getting invited to parties? That's news in itself. :D

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Originally Posted by Xerius

SMNs are getting invited to parties? That's news in itself. :D

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Well that made me lol XD

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Originally Posted by Xerius

SMNs are getting invited to parties? That's news in itself. :D

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they are on the test server where they make up things like bst, smn, pup, drg, rdm, blu and the like being sought after for end-game content. you can't miss it, the place looks like the landscape in SugarRush from the movie Wreck It Ralph.