decrease spell casting time for the new spell Crusade

The cast time is to long on PLD and need to be cut in have. The new spells Crusade should have cast time like flash

I'd prefer more fast cast myself. It only takes 2.5 seconds to cast on RUN, because they have capped fast cast natively as a merit category. Meanwhile PLD's struggling to get even half way to the fast cast cap even with the new wildskeeper augments.

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Originally Posted by Louispv

I'd prefer more fast cast myself. It only takes 2.5 seconds to cast on RUN, because they have capped fast cast natively as a merit category. Meanwhile PLD's struggling to get even half way to the fast cast cap even with the new wildskeeper augments.

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Totally agree. The most pld can get right now is 48 fc for enhancing magic and that's with using Majorelle shield which isn't preferred over Ochain. I do like teaming up with RUNs though for the fast cast you can get from them with inspiration merited and valiance up.

Only takes me 0 seconds to never cast it... so I'd prefer the spell to actually be useful first

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Originally Posted by dasva

Only takes me 0 seconds to never cast it... so I'd prefer the spell to actually be useful first

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I'm not sure how the spell is for PLDs, but for RUN it's amazing. Maybe because PLD already can get so much more + Enmity than RUN, they get less increase from it. on RUN I have currently about +28 enmity without Crusade, only 10 of which is in all of my gear sets, the rest is just for flash and foil macros. Therefore it's a 23% increase in hate from those 2 spells and a 27% increase from everything else.

PLD on the other hand can get probably over 60 or more as a base, so they'd only see a 18% increase. And, unless Crusade goes above the current =100 cap, it's achieving nothing for PLD while under the effects of Sentinel.

But, as Aeron said, pairing up a RUN and a PLD makes a great combo :)

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Originally Posted by dasva

Only takes me 0 seconds to never cast it... so I'd prefer the spell to actually be useful first

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How's it not useful?

Because it in no way addresses the core issues with the enmity system. And doesn't change the futility of trying to tank once the DD's have hit the hate cap.

That said, I'm still glad to have it. But we still need a real fix for the enmity system.

I just figure the +30 Enmity counts toward the Enmity loss reduction that Enmity+ does with gear. I also don't know what was ever figured out with Aero's idea of having 100 Enmity in your standard gear to eliminate hate loss. This spell and Burtgang would put a PLD at 48, with another 52 in gear which I assume to be fairly easy a PLD could have capped Enmity without any way of losing it by my understanding.

It hasn't been tested whether there's a cap on the CE loss reduction via enmity+ gear. So we don't know how high that can go. Heck, we don't even know how potent the effect is. Whether it's -1% per +1 enmity, or if there's some formula it goes through.

It doesn't really matter if you can't lose CE though. Once at enmity cap, the thing that determines who has the mobs attention, is who was the last to act. Naturally, there are more DDs than tanks. So the frequency of action from non-tanks will be vastly higher than that of the tank. So the majority of the time, the mob will be aimed at someone aside from the tank.

This holds true whether you ever lose CE or not. DD's will constantly recap CE even if they do take damage. Probably just via melee hits. If not, next WS would recap.

So while Crusade helps you hit cap faster, and reduces enmity loss, it doesn't address the issue that currently invalidates tanking.

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Originally Posted by Martel

It hasn't been tested whether there's a cap on the CE loss reduction via enmity+ gear. So we don't know how high that can go. Heck, we don't even know how potent the effect is. Whether it's -1% per +1 enmity, or if there's some formula it goes through.

It doesn't really matter if you can't lose CE though. Once at enmity cap, the thing that determines who has the mobs attention, is who was the last to act. Naturally, there are more DDs than tanks. So the frequency of action from non-tanks will be vastly higher than that of the tank. So the majority of the time, the mob will be aimed at someone aside from the tank.

This holds true whether you ever lose CE or not. DD's will constantly recap CE even if they do take damage. Probably just via melee hits. If not, next WS would recap.

So while Crusade helps you hit cap faster, and reduces enmity loss, it doesn't address the issue that currently invalidates tanking.

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So this. Having 100enmity makes no noticeable difference in tanking really. I went to a bee wkr and I was using a 70enmity set with an acc/pdt/capped haste set up. The only reason I was able to maintain some semblance of hate control was because I was /drk and using last resort to lower my attack delay as much as possible. The support was making sure that I had marches and haste which in most other cases youll see the other dds get as well.

I'm wondering if Suppa lowers attack delay even if you only have one wpn equipped? If dual wielding gets applied even if only one wpn is equip the devs could add more gear to help pld lower its attack delay so that in situation were hate is capped we can maintain hate. I was maintaining AM3 pretty much constant and really only ws'ing once the AM was initially applied, dmg not being my primary concern. Also keeping jas/mas to a minimum because the forced delays associated with both actions really hinder your able to maintain hate control.

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Originally Posted by Aeron

The only reason I was able to maintain some semblance of hate control was because I was /drk and using last resort to lower my attack delay as much as possible.

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From the April-30-2013-(JST)-Version-Update notes
"The job trait Desperate Blows may now be learned at level fifteen*.
Desperate Blows reduces delay for two-handed weapons when using Last Resort."

Meaning, unless you were using a great sword, you weren't getting any delay reduction via last resort.

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Originally Posted by Aeron

I'm wondering if Suppa lowers attack delay even if you only have one wpn equipped? If dual wielding gets applied even if only one wpn is equip the devs could add more gear to help pld lower its attack delay so that in situation were hate is capped we can maintain hate.

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It doesn't. You must have a weapon equipped in both the main and sub slot for dual wield to have any effect.

This becomes extremely clear when you single wield /nin, and still have your original tp per hit.

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Originally Posted by Martel

From the April-30-2013-(JST)-Version-Update notes
"The job trait Desperate Blows may now be learned at level fifteen*.
Desperate Blows reduces delay for two-handed weapons when using Last Resort."

Meaning, unless you were using a great sword, you weren't getting any delay reduction via last resort.

It doesn't. You must have a weapon equipped in both the main and sub slot for dual wield to have any effect.

This becomes extremely clear when you single wield /nin, and still have your original tp per hit.

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Yeah that was my mistake. I was looking at last resort on bg thinking that it gave 15% job haste instead of attack. The dual wield effecting one handed setups was just wishful thinking. I was looking at the attack delay formula trying to figure out if there was any real way to lower delay besides magic haste. This seems to be were the major problem is when it comes to tanking with DDs and the saturation of the enmity cap. What I find kinda strange though is that every time I activated last resort it seemed as if I was able to keep better hate. It couldn't have been the increase in dmg because the amount of dmg near the cap is irrelevant.

It now seems that the only source of job haste you can get is from haste samba to effect the delay of a one handed wpn for pld. This is definitely an area on the formula that they can adjust to make it possible for pld to tank effectively. They could add in a merited trait that acts like desperate blows that lowers plds attack delay for one handed wpns. I'm sure they would have to give it some kind of negative attribute too like decrease attack -15% or something.

I'd really rather they just fix the issues with the enmity system than make other changes to accommodate a flawed system.

It's a shame, because to me the solution is fairly simple. Raise the caps on enmity with the spell crusade by 1. That way, you have to actually take damage to lose hate, regardless of how many other people are hitting the mob.

Take damage >>> lose hate >>> deal damage/use JA/Magic >> get hate back again until you take damage again.

On enemies that hit slowly this would mean you have hate for a hell of a lot more of the time, and on enemies that hit very quickly, they generally don't deal as much damage so won't get through phalanx and shield blocks.

They could of course increase hate cap by more than 1, but they already said that they don't want it to be too easy for tanks to hold hate and allow the DDs to go all out. This way, tanks will still lose hate when they take damage, to keep some semblance of game balance.

That's not a fix though. If it was just 1 you'd still yo yo ever time you get hate plus that is just a bandaid at best. The system needs an overhaul. As is +/-enmity is fairly useless outside of hate resets and with the ws update some jobs can recap in a single ws anyways lol

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Originally Posted by dasva

That's not a fix though. If it was just 1 you'd still yo yo ever time you get hate plus that is just a bandaid at best. The system needs an overhaul. As is +/-enmity is fairly useless outside of hate resets and with the ws update some jobs can recap in a single ws anyways lol

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SE have already said that they don't want the game to be played by mindless DDs that run in and do as much damage as they can until they die because the tanks can't hold hate. They are trying to include some sort of strategy in this game. As such, a fix where hate at least only bounces when the tank takes damage, is better than it is now where the tank only has hate immediately after hitting the mob or doing some sort of action to get hate.

As it is now, you have 3 options:

1) use a tank and create a strategy that allows your tank to hold hate, by having the DDs turn or drop back occasionally, use SCH SP and/or THFs to control hate from other DDs.

2) use a tank but have it there only to keep the mob occupied when all the DDs die and wait for unweaken due to them getting too much hate.

3) don't bother with a tank at all because your DDs are going to have hate most of the time anyway.

I'd really like to seem them implement a form of enmity douse for all DDs. It seems to me that its a lose lose situation. If you have tanks that can maintain hate alone then dds don't have to worry about enmity and the game suffers. But then again rngs have decoy shot not having to worry about hate right now and it doesn't seem to be a problem for them which I always find funny when ppl reverse that for melee dds like its not ok to have the same mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Aeron

I'd really like to seem them implement a form of enmity douse for all DDs. It seems to me that its a lose lose situation. If you have tanks that can maintain hate alone then dds don't have to worry about enmity and the game suffers. But then again rngs have decoy shot not having to worry about hate right now and it doesn't seem to be a problem for them which I always find funny when ppl reverse that for melee dds like its not ok to have the same mechanic.

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In all honesty though, it's a right pain in the ass when the mob runs off to a RNG or a mage, where as if it just turns to attack another melee, it's not so much of an issue.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

In all honesty though, it's a right pain in the ass when the mob runs off to a RNG or a mage, where as if it just turns to attack another melee, it's not so much of an issue.

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Very true. Then again rngs can just shadowbind and the tank can reclaim hate. In all honesty though turning is a seriously unrealistic mechanic and I say that knowing we are playing a game with magic. I've said it before ill say it again, in a situation where I grab the attention of a monster im not going to turn my back to him thinking that yeah thatll lose his attention on me. If anything I would expect the monster to be more bloodthirsty, him now thinking I was an easy kill.

The development team on one end wants players to incorporate enmity values into strategy, but on the other end they continue to create timed content with very little leeway for slower fighting and failure. Every time a damage dealing job has to hold back, or a job has to use enmity manipulating spells and abilities, it slows damage over time - decreasing your room for general errors. Not only is the enmity system horrible at the moment, but the content that revolves around killing things as quickly as possible almost negates any variance for strategy.

Now there are linkshells, statics, and very rarely PUG groups that finish battles way before the time limit because of their gear and using well known strategies. Allowing them to let people play in a substandard way to be more enjoyable. But for the general population of the game, the current state of the game is pretty unforgiving on time management.

I think the development team needs to take all of this into account if they want the playerbase to incorporate enmity into strategy. I agree that enmity- weapons and enmity+ spells alone aren't going to cut it. The system itself needs revision with consideration of timed events.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

SE have already said that they don't want the game to be played by mindless DDs that run in and do as much damage as they can until they die because the tanks can't hold hate. They are trying to include some sort of strategy in this game. As such, a fix where hate at least only bounces when the tank takes damage, is better than it is now where the tank only has hate immediately after hitting the mob or doing some sort of action to get hate.

As it is now, you have 3 options:

1) use a tank and create a strategy that allows your tank to hold hate, by having the DDs turn or drop back occasionally, use SCH SP and/or THFs to control hate from other DDs.

2) use a tank but have it there only to keep the mob occupied when all the DDs die and wait for unweaken due to them getting too much hate.

3) don't bother with a tank at all because your DDs are going to have hate most of the time anyway.

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Random bouncing isn't a fix. There is still no enmity control it's just going willy nilly. Just with potential larger gaps between the bounces though that is somewhat dependent on how fast you can get an actual in after taking dmg. There is no strategy in that. It's barely a bandaid. Sure it might be "better" than it is now. But if you are going to bother fix something why half ass it and still leave it mostly broken?

The whole enmity system needs an overhaul. It was based on level 75 mobs and mob growth that is totally out of whack with todays mobs. You shouldn't automatically cap enmity after doing 1% dmg to a mob. A simple overhaul of the dmg enmity formulas to make them more like the dmg taken enmity loss formulas would accomplish this. There would be strategy and enmity gearing. A tank could conceivable keep hate off of DDs if he was good enough and kept on it and geared for it etc. And if your tank sucked it wont and your DDs will eat it. Kinda like back before we were constantly capped for those who remember using tanks on old mobs back in the day

Crusade is useful on PLD for the first few min of a fight. +30 Enmity means you only need 70 enmity in gear to cap(getting to +100 with burtgang was a bit tedious). The cast time is a bit long, about 2.5 seconds but it lasts for 6 or 7 minutes I think(I dunno I use Shabti Body), but it lasts long enough such that it should stay on for the entirety of most fights(unless its dispelled).

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Crusade is useful on PLD for the first few min of a fight. +30 Enmity means you only need 70 enmity in gear to cap(getting to +100 with burtgang was a bit tedious). The cast time is a bit long, about 2.5 seconds but it lasts for 6 or 7 minutes I think(I dunno I use Shabti Body), but it lasts long enough such that it should stay on for the entirety of most fights(unless its dispelled).

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From what I could tell when testing naked on RUN with no buffs up, it's 3 secs cast time and 5 mins duration. You should get 5:30 with Shabti, the same as RUN gets with Relic legs. But yeah it's best to use it before the fight starts so you shouldn't need to recast. And if the fight lasts longer than 5 mins, well everyone's capped on hate by then anyway.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Crusade is useful on PLD for the first few min of a fight. +30 Enmity means you only need 70 enmity in gear to cap(getting to +100 with burtgang was a bit tedious). The cast time is a bit long, about 2.5 seconds but it lasts for 6 or 7 minutes I think(I dunno I use Shabti Body), but it lasts long enough such that it should stay on for the entirety of most fights(unless its dispelled).

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It's definitely 5. Which is more than long enough to cap. Weird thing is the spell itself though appears to be more or less hateless. Probably would've preferred something that wasn't a buff but gave a straight +2000 CE or something

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Originally Posted by dasva

Random bouncing isn't a fix. There is still no enmity control it's just going willy nilly. Just with potential larger gaps between the bounces though that is somewhat dependent on how fast you can get an actual in after taking dmg. There is no strategy in that. It's barely a bandaid. Sure it might be "better" than it is now. But if you are going to bother fix something why half ass it and still leave it mostly broken?

The whole enmity system needs an overhaul. It was based on level 75 mobs and mob growth that is totally out of whack with todays mobs. You shouldn't automatically cap enmity after doing 1% dmg to a mob. A simple overhaul of the dmg enmity formulas to make them more like the dmg taken enmity loss formulas would accomplish this. There would be strategy and enmity gearing. A tank could conceivable keep hate off of DDs if he was good enough and kept on it and geared for it etc. And if your tank sucked it wont and your DDs will eat it. Kinda like back before we were constantly capped for those who remember using tanks on old mobs back in the day

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Once the damage dealers you are talking about get hit they should start to lose enmity. Least that is the way it seems to me.

So even when this hate cap is reached, the DD can still lose enmity if he/she pulls threat and is damaged. Now if the player continues to go all out on the mob even when they are getting pounded that isn't the tank's fault and is the fault of a suicidal player. The player just needs to learn to ease up when they start taking damage. And that is probably what SE means when they say they want strategy in the gameplay and not just mindless tank and spank like other MMORPGs have (which gets incredibly boring).

So I don't really see a serious problem with the current system. It's not perfect - but does allow for strategy and enable players to utilize a tank if they play appropriately.

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Originally Posted by DrWho

The cast time is to long on PLD and need to be cut in have. The new spells Crusade should have cast time like flash

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This is a problem for the class more generally and one of the things that bother me about paladin. Many of our spells have lengthy cast times. It's not just crusade. So does phalanx, enlight, cure 4. And when fighting stronger mobs (especially multiple mobs) getting casts off can be a real pain.

There is a solution to this: -spell interruption. But the problem is you need so much of it to ensure your casting doesn't get interrupted that it can severely gimp your character if you wear the gear for it. Especially now since none of the high item level gear seems to have any on it. Even the upgrade for the valor legs for some annoying reason doesn't have this stat which is originally on the base item.

In my opinion the paladin's gear needs to be retooled and this stat should be generously afforded to it. That would go a long way to making paladin a better and more complete class.