Please fix the broken enmity system!!!!!

Dear SE,

For the love of god, please fix the broken and almost useless enmity system. I say almost because it only works in very specific setups and we all know what those are. Having tanks that can't keep hate with melee dds is ridiculous and major game design flaw. I don't care what you say about oh if the pld can keep hate then DDs don't have to worry about anything. Frankly that's not true with the aoes that you have nms doing now. You punish plds and runs for that matter for been good at their jobs and not being able to tank. Incase the god damm enmity cap for these jobs with the amount of dmg that delve bosses do there is going to be a balance in that the tank will continue to have cast mas/jas to maintain that hate. I was excited when I saw all the "adjustments" you guys were making, but frankly they haven't amounted to a lick of squat. No one likes the rng strat anymore its played out and frankly its f!$^%$# boring. Fix the game mechanics because the talks that I have had with ALOT of ppl suggest that you are going to be losing subs because the game is getting played out and boring. As a matter of fact I might go play Elder Scrolls Online at least in that game I can pretend to be a Pld and succeed at it.

Sincerely,
Aegislash

I know I haven't played this game in forever because of this. I don't have a Ranger, pld, whm, or brd so I barely stand a chance for this end game. A fix to the enmity system would fix much of this.

I got Laevateinn to 119 last night and did some events with it. I am still getting the hang of it, but two things were pretty immediately clear:
1) Unless you restrict yourself to AM2 using an enmity reduction build, you will inevitably pull hate off any tank, whether it is melee or PLD. Sticking to AM2 let's you get away with it for about 10 minutes including one douse usage.
2) Casting normal nukes capped out enmity in like 3 casts.

This makes BLM pretty irresponsible as a DD in tanked fights. I did Puppet in Peril on D and Superman fight on N. Parsed between the rangers against superman and something like 5% ahead the best monk in Puppet in Peril. I pulled hate much more often than the RNG and can probably take credit for one WHM death in the puppet BC though, because I had no real way to manage my enmity and it capped out so easily.

Something needs to change.

As an end-game PLD, I agree completely.

Ok, some background as to why I started this thread. It was mainly out of frustration. My ls and I tried to do Delve Tree the other nice and for the most part we were doing well. I was able to maintain some semblance of hate control but somewhere at about 30% in it all went to shit. For one thing cover in on a way too high of a cool down. I should have to the ability to cover anyone in the alliance. If you don't want to give plds and runs some kind of increase enmity cap, fix this ja to allow for constant use because its NEEDED. Actually to be honesty cover should be a job trait that tanks for more then a JA.

When the -enmity JSE wpns came out ill admit I was optimistic. As Byrth stated its all but pointless to use -enmity gear youre going to eventually cap hate and whats worst is that's on a job that has the ability to shed enmity think how much worst it is on jobs like mnk sam drk that don't have that ability. Rng is truly broken in terms of enmity control, All jobs need some form of decoy shot. Its too over powered of an ability to give to just one job. It forces us into very specific set ups that are really starting to get boring. Even with -50 enmity DDs are going to pull hate why because pld doesn't have significant hate tools and can't attack as fast as a mnk period. Unless you make it so that pld and run can either redirect some of the party hate to themselves or lower the cool down on cover or as the majority of ppl have been saying for a long time increase the enmity cap for tank jobs this will always be an issue. but hell don't take my word for it take a poll better yet play the freaking game and youll see for yourself that its broken.

The problem isn't how much hate the pld can get since a good one will be capped too. The problem is even how dmg enmity is calculated. It's based mostly on dmg dealt and a little on mob level... the problem with this is the amount of dmg enmity you can accrue on a mob varies wildly with mob hp. So even if you balanced enmity around some nms so that DDs would hit the cap around when it died if you then fought something with twice as much hp DDs would cap at 50%.

Specifically to compare most nms in 75 era when the enmity was semi balanced had what 40-50k hp? Maybe 100k on a few. Even with 100k hp you were looking at 153k dmg CE at most. And that was only alliance sometimes multiple alliance content. So if you spread it out between the DDs and account for some loss from dmg or -enmity gear it's fairly easy to make sure people don't cap till it's almost dead at least in theory.

Now we have mobs with 2 mil hp and even with the higher level and changes in enmity there is almost around 900k dmg CE available... when CE cap per player is 10k... so yeah it's actually possible to cap hate on some nms now after doing only 1% dmg to it <.< Mind you this is post dmg enmity adjustment. Before that same mob would have had over double that.

So yeah my proposal is to get rid of the whole level based correction factor and use mob hp instead. Such that every mob regardless of hp you will get the same amount of CE from dealing enough dmg to kill it. Something around enough to cap say 6 players or so. Maybe more for nms that you can assume you'd bring more than a pt for.... or add something that figures in pt size.

I don't really care what they do just so long as I can tank with melee jobs and not have to rely on rngs to preform my role as a tank. This is really the heart of the matter. When game designers create classes or jobs whatever, they need to be stand alone to be able to do the job that they are required in party mechanics. In delve where minutes matter you cant have your dds constantly turning or if you want us to do this dumb mechanic give us more time to finish the run to account for this mechanic. It not necessarily that the tank will die, its that all the dds die and then time out.

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Originally Posted by dasva

The problem isn't how much hate the pld can get since a good one will be capped too.

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Ok, while I agree with you that its really easy to cap hate on pld and run that is not specifically what I'm talking about with the problem of the system. Heres the scenario that happens a lot. Pld caps hate, battle going fine. Then some other dd caps hate, usually a mnk. Now the problem is that mnks have a significant delay reduction it its auto attacks. Pld can create spikes in hate yes but it is at a huge disadvantage when it comes to constant enmity maintenance. This is one of the reasons why plds and runs need an extended enmity cap. Or they could just give pld and run the ability to attack as fast as a mnk lol which im all for but is broken too. And just for the record I get double marches and haste in content so throw that idea out the window.

Personally Id like to see a reduction in covers cool down and be able to merit more points in cover. The ability to fulltime cover would be a gimmicky mechanic for pld but at least its one that you can use. Its tangible and obtainable for all plds and would probably become a requirement setup but really I don't give a shit, I'd do it if I could tank with melees effectively. The key word there is effectively.

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Originally Posted by Aeron

Ok, while I agree with you that its really easy to cap hate on pld and run that is not specifically what I'm talking about with the problem of the system. Heres the scenario that happens a lot. Pld caps hate, battle going fine. Then some other dd caps hate, usually a mnk. Now the problem is that mnks have a significant delay reduction it its auto attacks. Pld can create spikes in hate yes but it is at a huge disadvantage when it comes to constant enmity maintenance. This is one of the reasons why plds and runs need an extended enmity cap. Or they could just give pld and run the ability to attack as fast as a mnk lol which im all for but is broken too. And just for the record I get double marches and haste in content so throw that idea out the window.

Personally Id like to see a reduction in covers cool down and be able to merit more points in cover. The ability to fulltime cover would be a gimmicky mechanic for pld but at least its one that you can use. Its tangible and obtainable for all plds and would probably become a requirement setup but really I don't give a shit, I'd do it if I could tank with melees effectively. The key word there is effectively.

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Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly... the problem isn't plds ability to get hate so much as ANYONE who deals any dmg to be considered contributing will also cap. When more than 1 player is capped it doesn't matter how fast or how well you generate hate. The mob will then focus on whoever took the last action even actions that produce 0 hate. Which is why it stays on mnks a lot because even if they are missing a lot as long as they can keep up with VE loss which is fairly easy then because of their attack speed will often have the last action. Back in the day it probably would've been drks with there crazy 93% haste. Heck if you got some ja haste (like say from a dnc in the pt) on top of the capped magic and gear you could probably also keep the attention of the mob too

In summation the problem is that everyone can cap waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before a mob is dead. There is no good reason for a system that has your worst DD having the same hate as yor best one also the same as some of your support and the same as your tank or even silly melee mages for 80% of a fight. And it's just ludicrous that you can literally cap enmity just thru dmg on an nm 1000 times. There is no need to give certain jobs higher caps just make it so that dealing 1% dmg to an enemy doesn't cap your CE for the entire fight.

There are several ways to do this that mostly revolve around either raising the cap or lowering the amount of hate from dmg. The latter they already did. unfortunately all they did was slightly modify one of the numbers in the formula so the inherent flaws in how dmg enmity is calculated remain. Raising the cap also wouldn't address them. So as mob hps rise and along with them our ability to do dmg those fixes will needed readjustment over and over as we keep running back into this problem.

They also tried adjusting CE losses... but with limited gearing options that's kinda hard. Especially with so many DDs having +enmity gear in a lot of their better DD pieces...

The problem with creating special extra caps for certain jobs is once they get higher than the normal cap (which if you plan around it could be done in the first few seconds of battle) they could basically just afk on mobs and never lose hate because they will always have more. And people would do that. Just start out with some high hate stuff in +enmity gear then idle into a DT set with some enmity on it with just enough DD stats and buffs to overcome VE loss (which takes all of about dealing lol 44 dmg a second) and the small amount of CE loss though there are ways around the latter.

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Originally Posted by dasva

Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly... the problem isn't plds ability to get hate so much as ANYONE who deals any dmg to be considered contributing will also cap. When more than 1 player is capped it doesn't matter how fast or how well you generate hate. The mob will then focus on whoever took the last action even actions that produce 0 hate. Which is why it stays on mnks a lot because even if they are missing a lot as long as they can keep up with VE loss which is fairly easy then because of their attack speed will often have the last action. Back in the day it probably would've been drks with there crazy 93% haste. Heck if you got some ja haste (like say from a dnc in the pt) on top of the capped magic and gear you could probably also keep the attention of the mob too

In summation the problem is that everyone can cap waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before a mob is dead. There is no good reason for a system that has your worst DD having the same hate as yor best one also the same as some of your support and the same as your tank or even silly melee mages for 80% of a fight. And it's just ludicrous that you can literally cap enmity just thru dmg on an nm 1000 times. There is no need to give certain jobs higher caps just make it so that dealing 1% dmg to an enemy doesn't cap your CE for the entire fight.

There are several ways to do this that mostly revolve around either raising the cap or lowering the amount of hate from dmg. The latter they already did. unfortunately all they did was slightly modify one of the numbers in the formula so the inherent flaws in how dmg enmity is calculated remain. Raising the cap also wouldn't address them. So as mob hps rise and along with them our ability to do dmg those fixes will needed readjustment over and over as we keep running back into this problem.

The problem with creating special extra caps for certain jobs is once they get higher than the normal cap (which if you plan around it could be done in the first few seconds of battle) they could basically just afk on mobs and never lose hate because they will always have more. And people would do that. Just start out with some high hate stuff in +enmity gear then idle into a DT set with some enmity on it with just enough DD stats and buffs to overcome VE loss (which takes all of about dealing lol 44 dmg a second) and the small amount of CE loss though there are ways around the latter.

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Ok, so the only flaw in your example with the increased enmity cap is that NMs do significant enough dmg to drop your hate back below the limit, while the DDs keep a pretty much keep a constant cap on hate. My pdt set has 67pdt/30mdt/30bdt and 25% gear haste on it with +43 enmity on it and when im /blu I have like 1600 def and I still take dmg from delve 2 bosses so this idea that ill get to afk to keep hate is a lil silly. I think the balance is making the extended cap significant enough to where a pld would be unable to keep hate above the cap from just auto attacking and would require them to use jas/mas to maintain above the cap. I mean I understand what your saying about the afk thing I really do but something has to be done. Maybe they should separate dmg hate and ma/ja hate and have different values for each.

I definitely think they need to get rid of the lvl correct bullshit though.

You know I read the bst thread and I sympathize. While plds haven't had it as bad as a lot of other jobs because of the rng strat I wouldn't go so far as to say there is significant problems with the job.

I mean can we be honest with the situation are there only like 3 guys on the DEV team? How hard is it to fix the sorts of issues that are brought up on this forum, I'll admit im not a programmer. Why is that issues go unresolved for so long?I've heard it often said that SE doesn't care about NA comment on a JP game is this true? How many of the suggestions for the NA community do you actually accept?

I'd like more transparency or at least more updates as far as long term schedule to fixes please. Keeping ppl in the dark or just random updates is not enough to keep ppl interested. The enmity issue has been know about for a LONG time and every attempt/adjust hasn't achieved any level of what I would equate to success.

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Originally Posted by Aeron

Ok, so the only flaw in your example with the increased enmity cap is that NMs do significant enough dmg to drop your hate back below the limit, while the DDs keep a pretty much keep a constant cap on hate. My pdt set has 67pdt/30mdt/30bdt and 25% gear haste on it with +43 enmity on it and when im /blu I have like 1600 def and I still take dmg from delve 2 bosses so this idea that ill get to afk to keep hate is a lil silly. I think the balance is making the extended cap significant enough to where a pld would be unable to keep hate above the cap from just auto attacking and would require them to use jas/mas to maintain above the cap. I mean I understand what your saying about the afk thing I really do but something has to be done. Maybe they should separate dmg hate and ma/ja hate and have different values for each.

I definitely think they need to get rid of the lvl correct bullshit though.

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Hmmm not exactly sounds like you are mixing up what I was saying about a general increase in cap and job specific ones. The reason just raising the cap period wont work that well is because the same reason just lowering the amount of hate from dmg didn't really work. Even if you did manage to make it work on 1 mob ones with higher hp would have more hate to be able to be gotten off of them because of that. While there is some amount of compensation for that in the level correction part of the dmg enmity equation it doesn't even come close to keeping up with how fast hps have risen. So you have one mob where you literally can't cap enmity from just dmg on and others you can cap 1000 times over. And of course as mob hps go up generally speaking our ability to deal dmg does as well so that would make static corrections like just raising the cap or lowering how much you get not work over time. Hence why I purpose making hate based on mob total hp instead of level similar to how CE loss is based on your total hp. Making it so that no matter what mob or how much hp that for example for pt content at most 3 people could cap hate from just dmg. Which would mean that if you had 3 DDs and they all did even amount of dmg AND lost none from dmg/debuffs they would all barely reach the cap as the mob died. Obviously that is probably a bit too low since the whole point of the system is to give us a means to control where the mob is with effort and there will be some losses especially from normal DDs. So maybe more like enough for everyone to cap barely. Should also point out that there is a situation where it wouldn't work out that well and that would be mobs that heal themselves significant amounts since the dmg they take would be decently out of sync with how much hp they have... but seems like a minor issue to me

The reason against giving certain jobs different higher caps was that as long as that job has higher than the normal cap they will have the mobs attention. And as we have already established getting and maintaining capped hate is trivial even to melee mages. So all you would need to do to tank is turtle it up and afk. Yes you will still take dmg but you wont have to actively get hate since you can easily stay above get hate faster than you lose it just auto attacking. Now if you were solo yeah you'd need to pay attention to keep yourself alive but pt+ content you have a healer. Heck as is while just holding mobs I've definitely afkd on mobs that would kill most DDs for a bit and no one noticed. And as far as actually tanking in pt content your main role as a tank is to keep the mob on you and take as little dmg as you can both of which help the healers keep everyone alive. Sure if you were there you could heal yourself some or deal a tiny bit more dmg but neither are necessary and trivial to what you could do playing another character with your full attention. As such I could definitely see some people basically making pld characters designed to do that and then afk on that while they play another character to it's full potential. Heck people already kinda do do it with low enmity DDs or using pld as main source of dmg. Sit your pld in front a mob and go to your healer and keep alive with a whm.... you just can't currently do that when next to real DDs who are going to be capped as well. Though really you can't keep hate regardless if you are there or not lol

Not sure what you mean by separate hate... they do have different values... or do you mean a different category of enmity with it's own separate cap... that could work I suppose though you'd run into similar problems as the whole certain jobs have higher caps unless you really adjusted the DDs jas to give ridiculous amounts.

The level correct for enmity was a kinda good idea. It gave you less hate for higher level enemies which would be the ones with more hp and was easy to implement since it's effectively the same formula/equation as cure enmity... basically it was a lazy version of my idea of basing it on mob hps. It sorta worked at the time but it was designed in an era where mobs had at least somewhat similar hps at similar levels and they rose at a less steep rate and the levels only went up to around 90ish for nms. All things that have changed pretty much since level cap increase and have just increasingly gotten worse and worse