So, I have both leveled and they need some work, but I have every song except Paeon V, but every dice for COR. BRD is mostly asked for Double March, but my question lies in that is Then Blitz Roll Really that different that a March? Is reduced Delay inferior to March? Someone said that the Blitz roll also merits less of a TP return. Can COR do an equal job that BRD can?
Deciding factor BRD or COR.
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06-04-2014, 08:54 AMZeargiDeciding factor BRD or COR.
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06-04-2014, 09:19 AMByrth
No, it cannot. Blitz roll is a separate term from Haste, so it does not cause the same inverse growth that we know and love when stacked with Haste. The facts that it is still subject to the delay cap and also reduces TP are just the icing on the crapcake.
Bard or bust. -
06-05-2014, 01:55 PMDemonjustin
Honestly they just need to make Blitzer's Roll the same as Haste, possibly 25% Haste on an XI & 20% on a Lucky would be enough to make it at least somewhat viable.
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06-06-2014, 12:56 AMpredatory
Cor was never meant to take the place of a Brd, Brd is the best enhancer in the game bar none
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06-06-2014, 05:56 AMDemonjustin
While it's true BRD is best, it'd be nice if another job could at least be a viable replacement at times rather than it always being either a BRD or a bust. A 25% Haste roll would be powerful enough to give COR a shot and it would be one of only 2 rolls, at best you're getting 1 other buff and that's it. BRD would still be far superior due to it's ability to provide 3~4 songs rather than 1~2, the fact it buffs more quickly, and the fact it's buffs are in many ways more powerful. COR wouldn't be a great replacement, but it'd at least make it a more viable alternative in some cases, and honestly I think we need an alternative because these days I see tons of shouts for BRDs but there are hardly any BRDs joining them.
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06-06-2014, 06:05 AMMitruya
I agree. I never even bothered to buy Blizter's anyway. I only get to go as COR for linkshell events; haven't seen a shout for that job in a long time.
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06-06-2014, 08:16 AMAfaniaEven if COR gets haste roll it'd never replace a BRD, because the value is random so why settle with less haste when you can get more haste? 25% on No.11 isn't enough at all, and if you roll a bad number it'd be beyond terrible. Ppl still gonna /shout for a BRD instead. Even 2 songs BRD gets more haste.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
COR can't do equal job that a BRD can, but it can work well in pretty much all situations that you're buffing 2~3 other DDs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeargi
I've been recording my chaos roll numbers and avg, last 14 chaos roll I did the number was 4 4 4 4 9 4 4 4 10 4 4 4 9 7, that makes the avg chaos roll over 25% with hat proc. Light shot+ Dia also make it 20% def down instead of 10%~15%. In melee pt situations COR itself usually do around 50%~75% of MNK or SAM in delve1 depending on situation. With additional 13% def down from steps and samba, having a COR in pt already ended up having higher pt output than no COR in pt.
In RNG only pt COR gets snapshot roll which is equal to haste for ranged jobs, that makes COR still a better choice to have in the pt. Against better RNGs COR usually parse 40%~50% of their dmg, against gimp RNG(which is like 80% of relic RNG on my server) COR can do 60%~80% of theirs. Snapshot roll/chaos/dia+ can easily make up the gap.
It can't replace a BRD, and it's not a game changing job that you must have in pt. But it doesn't need to do the same job as BRD cuz it functions differently.
Ppl still /shout for a COR for certain battlefield, just not delve. There aren't as many /shout as BRD but /shout still exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitruya
The reason why there are less /shout for a COR is the same reason why there are less /shout for a WAR DRG SAM PUP RDM...you can complete the content without those jobs so why bother to /shout for them. However if you have it then why don't you use it? /shout isn't the only deciding factor whether a job is useful or not, current content can be completed with variety of jobs. In the case of the BRD I think it's too extreme and too game changing, that doesn't mean other none BRD job is bad. I usually have an issue joining shout pt even when they aren't /shouting for a COR.
Also, the fact that most CORs
1) /WHM
2) don't light shot dia: this job is in major disadvantage without 20% def down dia. But most mages don't dia unless you yell at them so oh well.
3) don't do steps:in delve you can start working on steps when pt killing adds, since it can take a while to reach lv5
4) parse less than 5%: The right range for 2 melee/RNG pt is usually around 15%~25%. Just like a MNK parsing 5% doesn't worth a pt spot, a COR parsing 5% is not worth bringing.
5) don't double up on 6 and 7 and just let the bad number stay and rot for next 7 min.
6) Not getting right support.
.....makes things worse.
Also, a lot of ppl has wrong mentality about this job. It's supposed to be buff/DD hybrid, a COR doing only buffing is like a MNK only punching and not using WS, basically only doing half the job. Some ppl tend to view it as buff only job and not giving the right support it needs, that make the job not worth bringing too. According to my experience it's pretty powerful if doing proper buff/debuff and dmg. -
06-06-2014, 09:27 AMDemonjustinA BRD with only 2 songs and only March+4(standard non-R/E BRD) would hit 28% Haste with double marches. With Marcato it would hit 36% roughly with double marches. While it's not a full replacement it's not meant to be, but excluding Marcato you're looking at 3% less Haste but a second roll with Double Attack, Attack, or Accuracy. It wouldn't be as powerful as BRD no and it also wouldn't be as much a guarantee, but it's much better than what COR has right now and it'd have at least some potential for closing the gap a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
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06-06-2014, 09:36 AMAfania25% haste with No.11 is terrible, the time you actually hit No.11 is a lot less often than you think. COR is actually fine as it is, you can't expect a buff/DD hybrid job with every AF/REM weapons being DD gear to provide same lv of buff as a buff job that's designed to be a mage job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
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06-06-2014, 10:02 AMMitruya
Good points, Afania. I am still trying to learn the job so I'm not brave enough to look for parties who aren't shouting for it.
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06-06-2014, 10:33 AMDemonjustinSo wait. 25% with an XI is terrible, but at the same time you can't expect a buff/DD hybrid to be able to provide the same level of buff as a buff job that's designed to be a mage? Isn't that kinda the point then? 25% isn't as high as BRD can hit without Marcato let alone with, it's not going to cap your haste even with the spell Haste, and it's not a guarantee, thus it doesn't provide the same level of buff as a BRD. That said it's not terrible either because it does serve a purpose and gives COR a better ability to actually buff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Since Delve went all 6-man and everything I've not actually seen a COR in endgame that I can think of. COR is like GEO, but it's even worse off. It's a buffer you take when you're doing something more than 6-man content because you can afford the extra spot. COR for instance used to be taken to Tojil runs because you had room in the party for a COR, now that it's filled with a SCH you're not taking a COR unless someone is in a different party, and if that happens it's probably the SCH which means BRD swaps, which means more work than most people care to do. GEO can fill this role from a second party at least, debuffing as opposed to buffing and allowing the SCH to stay in the main party without any real downfall except MP limitations due to lack of ballads, an issue they can live through though, CORs on the other hand are limited to a single party.
The idea here isn't for COR to be a replacement for BRD, but more of a job you can take instead of BRD that actually works well. Even if COR wouldn't be as powerful as even a standard BRD it'd be powerful enough to be a viable alternative. -
06-06-2014, 06:06 PMpredatory
They would have to do a major overhaul of the Cor job to even make it something remotely resembling something you would take to an event instead of a BRD, especially now with Terpendar and most Brds being 3 song Brds with the rest being 4 song Brds.
This is the way it breaks down for all the delve runs I do, I'm either in the main party, or I'm the haste bitch for the Sch. In the main party if it's Delve 1 that we are doing I'm singing 2x March, and Valor Minute x1, (gotta work on getting my dharp but all my energy is focused on ghorn right now), for the melee, and Ballads 1-3 for the Whm along with casting haste on 2x dd and myself, and mob defuffs. In the Sch party I'm singing 2c march, and mage's ballad 3, and casting haste on the sch and myself while doing mob debuffs as well.
In Delve 2 I'm singing 2x Madrigal, and 1x Valor Minuet on the dd party as well as ballad for mage's and or March x2, ballad for sch.
There are various instruments and pieces of gear that augment different songs, a piece that comes to mind right away is empy +2 legs that give +1 to ballad, another piece is the feet that give +1 to sentinel's scherzo, with the entire set giving +5 to the stat corresponding with the particular element of the song being sung. And that's just the empy set, so it's not just basic songs it's equipment boosts to those songs as well.
And there's also the luck factor, Cor's rolls are based on luck, pure luck nothing else, it's that hated RNG operating visably either helping or hindering cor based on what number just happens to roll. Brd on the other hand gives the same buff every single time the song is sung, I have a friend that is fond of saying that Brd raises the level of the party, and he's right, that's exactly what a brd does.
I would say cor wouldn't be something you'd want to bring to an event instead of a Brd, but it might be something you'd think about bringing to an event to augment a brd.
I don't know what SE was thinking about when they made cor, it's a damage dealer, but not really. It's an enhancer, but falls short of brd. It's a debuffer but not quite. I don't understand why they would cobble together a job that's part rng, part brd, and part rdm, and not make it stand out in any way, other than it might could take one of those slots if push came to shove. But that's just my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions -
06-06-2014, 09:35 PMAfaniaNot sure what part of logic you can't understand. When you buff melee you want to cap attack delay, 25% with No.11 is terrible. As a pt lead in the end I'd still take a BRD no matter what, even with haste roll and 25% haste with No.11, COR still can't replace a BRD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
So if I'm going to make a pt, I'm always going to take a BRD, it doesn't matter if COR gets haste roll or not, random haste value that has a chance to make attack uncapped= BRD always, always remain as a required buff job.
You can't expect a COR with half the haste value be a replacement of BRD just because it's a hybrid, MMORPG doesn't work that way. Hybrid jobs like RDM, DNC and BLU can cure, but you don't see them get a spot as a healer in anything serious. You don't invite a class to do half the job. COR gets haste roll with No.11 25% haste value won't change a thing.
This is incorrect and I just explained in my previous post, I've used COR in ALL delve 1/2 and the only zone that'd need 2nd pt is probably yorcia, but 1 pt still works. In all delve1 pt, DD DD COR BRD WHM SCH still has higher output than DD DD DD BRD WHM SCH. You take COR and BRD together, and replace a DD with a COR. You don't replace a BRD with COR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
And I just explained why in previous post. With a COR as 3rd DD you gain 5%~10% more def down from dia, 25% avg attack boost, DA roll and 13% def down from steps. 5% haste samba which benefits certain jobs. COR's output is about 50%~75% of another DD too. In the end you do gain more DPS with COR as 3rd DD. If you don't believe me just open spreadsheet and add 3 DD's DPS without COR buff/debuff than change 1 DD to a COR and add rolls + 18%~23% def down see how it goes.
The only zone that you may need to buff 3 DD instead of 2 is yorcia, because COR sucked on wopket and probably anything above T4. Acc buff helps in that zone though, so in the end you'd still want one regardless. 2 DD +1 COR is still doable in Yorcia though, hopefully next WS update with WF boost can solve some issue of this job in yorcia a bit.
Pt size isn't the real reason why it was used in 18 man version but not 6 man. COR often parse 5% is. If a COR parse 5% in the pt you can take it in a 3 DD pt but not 2, because a 3rd DD will ended up better. But if a COR parse 20%~25% and let buff/debuff make up the remaining 10% then it'd worth a pt spot even with 2 DD in pt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
Current pt size didn't kill the job, it only killed the players that wants to get a pt invite naked, roll and afk and wouldn't spend time to gear it like other jobs. I have none LS ppl sent me /tell to do delve event on COR quite often. Sometimes when I see RNG /shout I send a /tell and often get invite too.
If you want pt invite on COR, for gods sake spend some time to gear it and play it like another DD job. Ppl spend time to gear SAM, MNK, SCH, WHM or even BRD and that should apply to COR too.
Pretty much this, you bring BRD and COR together, not replacing BRD with a COR. You replace a DD with a COR. I also don't understand why ppl keep wanting to replace BRD with a COR when it has different design purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by predatory
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06-06-2014, 11:03 PMAfaniaActually, this is incorrect. COR rolls are 40% decision making and 60% luck. As I said, I've been recording my chaos roll numbers and I already listed them in my previous posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by predatory
I can tell you, if I really, really want to, I will never land an unlucky number on Chaos. I land on mediocre number such as 6 or 7 around 10% of time, 90% of time it's either 4(lucky number), 9, 10 or 11. I only ever land No.8(unlucky) in acc uncapped situations, in such situation I'd prioritize acc roll so there's a risk that I may get unlucky on chaos. Otherwise if I don't want to get unlucky number on certain roll then I won't get it.
IMO, besides SCH and GEO(barely), currently it's one of the few hybrid job that's done right and actually works well in endgame setting. BLU DNC PUP RDM SMN are even worse hybrid job than COR atm, I'd argue that it's in better position than GEO but I may be wrong. I don't think the job itself needs a change, however the majority of the COR I've seen needs play style change...you know, stop subbing WHM.Quote:
Originally Posted by predatory
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06-07-2014, 03:24 AMDemonjustinMagic Haste caps at 43.75%, 25% + 15% = 40%, you're 3.75% away from what a BRD would cap you off at, the difference is minor. I did not say COR will replace BRD nor did I say you'd take one over a BRD, I said it'd at least be a viable alternative so that not every person who wants to get into events has to level BRD and not every person who wants to events needs a BRD. There's no logic I fail to understand here, the problem is you think the end goal of the idea is to make COR equal to or better than BRD, it's not. The idea is to give COR a much more powerful buff in place of one that isn't even used right now in hopes that the new one will bring COR more use as a buffer. Yes, there's more risk to it, the point isn't to look at it as a massive risk that's worse than BRD the idea is if you're doing something that's fairly easy anyways and want that Haste from the job what're most players more likely to do? Sit around and wait for a couple hours shouting for a BRD or simply getting a good COR who can provide similar levels of buffs if they roll well and at the same time can provide additional damage themselves?Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
So then what's your suggestion? Just leave BRD as the required buffing job in the game that hardly anyone wants to play but every event requires in order to be done? Great idea right there. I suppose it's better to not even try and just leave things where in any event one job is always there rather than trying to fix things so more jobs are viable alternatives.Quote:
So if I'm going to make a pt, I'm always going to take a BRD, it doesn't matter if COR gets haste roll or not, random haste value that has a chance to make attack uncapped= BRD always, always remain as a required buff job.
You can't expect a COR with half the haste value be a replacement of BRD just because it's a hybrid, MMORPG doesn't work that way. Hybrid jobs like RDM, DNC and BLU can cure, but you don't see them get a spot as a healer in anything serious. You don't invite a class to do half the job. COR gets haste roll with No.11 25% haste value won't change a thing.
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06-07-2014, 04:36 AMAppropriateName5786You record 14 data points and make a definitive statement. Thank goodness you're not a scientist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
I'd like to introduce you to my close friends, Snake Eye and Fold. No one lands unlucky numbers unless they want to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
There are 0 to 1 spots available for "hybrids" in current 6-man content, mostly 0. So when there are (often) 0 spots for jobs like yours, SCH is like a kid with Down's Syndrome, and the rest of these "hybrids" you named are like the even more handicapped Down's Syndrome kids. You name a bunch of jobs that can't get an invite to save their lives and argue that because COR might be better than them that it's fine. /sigh....just /sighQuote:
Originally Posted by Afania
I know you don't think before you post, but seriously. MMORPG doesn't work how? It can't be balanced because it's an MMO? What? You don't invite a job to do half the job? No sh*t? You mean people in multiple threads haven't been complaining precisely because their jobs can ONLY do half the job?Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
There are no "hybrids," there are only useful jobs and useless jobs. Right now, 2/3 of the jobs are useless, and that needs to change. -
06-07-2014, 07:36 AMAfania
Because apparently you can't read so I'll reply this first.
I have more than 14 data cuz I recorded every run in past 1 month, I just pulled the past 14 of them out because I don't like to type that many numbers in a post that's clearly irrelevant. But my estimation was correct or at least close and it is fact that you do make decisions when doing rolls.Quote:
Originally Posted by AppropriateName5786
I'm not sure what you mean here, that was exactly what I said. I guess you're just angry w.Quote:
Originally Posted by AppropriateName5786
Holy crap, plenty of ppl /shout for SCH daily and plenty of ppl invited COR, once I've seen a pt /shout for COR for 1hr and disband cuz they couldn't find one.Quote:
Originally Posted by AppropriateName5786
Then you said "0~1 spots available for hybrids in current 6-man content".
Are you playing another game?
And COR isn't one of them. The only things this job needs atm is decoy shot equivalent and ILV119 swords. But even without it it can still function properly, just weaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by AppropriateName5786
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06-07-2014, 07:46 AMAfania3~4% makes a bigger difference when it's close to haste cap, further more you're not ALWAYS 3~4% away. Sometimes maybe it's 10%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demonjustin
And I totally understand that you want COR to be 2nd best(it already is, though) buffer with haste rolls, but my point was that with how haste work in this game as long as you can't cap it the haste issue is always 0 or 1, not "can 0.5 replace 1?"
As for the suggestion, IMO, COR getting scherzo equivalent or stop making contents with moves that can 1 shot PLD, that would make COR a viable replacement to BRD in PLD+RNG DD situations, since RNG doesn't need march. Or maybe make more content that gives pet job/nuke job to shine. Because the main reason why BRD is OP, is because BRD is the best buffer for melee and COR is supposed be RNG pet job nuke job buffer, and now ppl melee everything and the situation that you don't melee you need scherzo. That made BRD a required buff job. Make pet jobs and BLM shine again, and stop making game mechanics that may 1 shot PLD then COR can be viable alternatives for half the content. -
06-07-2014, 04:16 PMAppropriateName5786Actually, I was pointing out that there are tools that make it so you don't ever have to land an unlucky number. You simply made it sound like it was all due to your unique skill. I wasn't completely disagreeing. But I guess you're right. Stupid people do tend to p*ss me off, regardless of location and platform.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
After reading any starry-eyed, FFXI-is-perfect post from you, I sometimes honestly believe we are playing completely different games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
That beggar over there isn't poor and homeless. The only thing he needs is a million dollars and a Ferrari.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
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06-07-2014, 05:55 PMpredatory
I don;t understand this entire conversation, cor has never stood out or been great at anything, cor does not excel at anything, and is mediocre at best at the things it does do. Why are you guys trying to make it into something it is not? Do you know what cor is? It's a half assed attempt by se to bring a well rounded job to the table when they couldn't think of anything else to add for another job for ToAU. You people are getting all bent out of shape over a job that specializes in exactly nothing, dick, nadda. It was a meaningless job to begin with, and it's still pretty much a meaningless job now. If you want a real enhancer get a fucking brd, want a real ranged damage dealer? Get a damned ranger. Want an enfeebler? Well there's plenty of rdms standing around with their hands in their pockets, Those jobs all have specialties. You guys yelling at each other in your overzealous attempts to make cor something it's not, must really have the dev team laughing about what else they can pull over your eyes. If you wanna play a job that's good at something, play the job designed to do that thing, you don't hop into a sports car to save gas, and you don't charter a boat to take you across the desert, why in the hell would you play the game like you do those things?
This would be the best solution for people who think all jobs should have perfect balance in all things, just get rid of the jobs, problem fucking solved, then everything would be perfectly balanced and you could bring your character to any event because it would be like every other char out there. while we're at it, lets get rid of those troublesome racial differences, and anything else that might look like it creates an imbalance, no more crafting because crafters might have a leg up over farmers, let's just let se give us every damn thing. Hell we should be able to walk into any dungeon or pop any field nm and take it down solo because that would be balanced.
The jobs were never meant to be balanced, different jobs had different jobs to do, don't like it tough, it's that way in real life too -
06-07-2014, 09:41 PMAfaniaYou can't really roll a dice in this game, you can only pop JA when you roll a dice, obviously you use JA to affect the number of your outcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by AppropriateName5786
I fail to understand HOW you read it as "due to your unique skill" when it's obviously just using JA like every other job, how else do you expect players to do when playing a job in FFXI, besides using JA?
Maybe the bolded term can apply to yourself. -
06-07-2014, 09:43 PMAfaniaIf that's the case how come ppl still use it? Also no one in this thread is saying the job is great at any aspect, just saying it's not a useless job. You can't say this job is bad just because BRD is a requirement in the pt. Out of 22 jobs only 2 jobs(BRD WHM) are absolutely needed in endgame. And I think that's broken to begin with. Every other job are kinda "you can have it but you can replace it", COR is no exception.Quote:
Originally Posted by predatory
Btw, if you want to mention ToAU job failure, BLU and PUP is in a worse position than COR ._. -
06-08-2014, 01:11 AMByrth
Cor gives 30% attack, 40 acc, and 20% defense down. It is better that a second bard and in some situations is better than a fourth melee. That is why it is used.