Relic Weapon - Aegis Item Level 119, when?

Hello, I'm back again with another rant and pleading that something long past due gets some attention again!

Anyways, let's look at the whole item level system....great idea for the most part. However, when you implemented item level to the REMs, you left out some stuff, Aegis, Ghorn, Ochain, and I believe Dura.

Where as the only increase you probably could do to Ghorn and Dura are yet another song or duration/potency, you could be giving PLD some more....usefulness again by giving Aegis and Ochain some shield skill.

Aegis is long overdue for some blockrate adjustments since well...longer than I can remember. Let's just say since Day 1.

I don't have the details personally, but people have mathed out that Aegis clearly has just garbage blockrate for a 130~300m item(depending what the going prices were when said person(s)) created it.

I'm not asking for Aegis to be overpowered and have highest blockrate in the game or anything, no...that's too much to ask for...<cough> Anyways! ^^

What I AM asking is that you please reconsider the fact it's suffered with such a garbage blockrate for too long. The rate of blocking on level 120~ monsters is like, hardly noticable and forces paladins to go get the much more easily aquired Skirmish or JSE shield.

Not really something I enjoy considering I put so much time and work into Ochain and Aegis. Does anybody else out there who actually has one of the two or both for that matter, agree? For gil spent, you want it to be at the top with the other good stuff, right?

Show some support and place your thoughts and opinions in the thread!

If someone has the blockrate math, etc. Maybe posting it here and showing SquareEnix what we're talking about!


As for Ochain, well. I don't know to be quite honest.. The shield skill is still something to be considered, but also considering that it costs anywhere starting from 225,000,000 Gil and higher to go from Ochain 90 to 95 is.... Well yeah.

I guess to sum up my rant/post, as it would apply to all REMs, not just shield and instruments... Give us our time/work/gils worth. Please! Thanks!

---Edit---
I also wanted to add that it's pretty bad that shields get slapped in the face with their shield skill on them, such as Eminent Shield, etc. Wher-as weapons are getting 240+ Parrying or Guarding. What's the deal with that?! ~.~

---Edit 2---
To be a bit more specific in my point also, I'll go ahead and list some comparisons.
Eminent Shield
Shield skill +100

Eminent Baghnakhs
Guarding skill +203

Eminent Scimitar
Parrying skill +215

So when you guys finally decide to add the Aegis and Ochain ToMs.... I really prefer not to see "Shield skill +115" when you added:
Priwen JSE
Shield skill +112

I'd very much rather see something along the lines of 242 for a Relic.
Excalibur
Parrying skill +242

So idealy, we should be getting:
Aegis
Shield skill +242

---Edit 3---
I'll be a little bit more specific to reduce further confusion. My point in this entire matter is:
Aegis shouldn't fall flat on it's face when you spend over 100~300m to make it, then 25~50m to go from 95 to 99 with it. These prices vary depending on when said person made their Aegis.

So ultimately in the end.... Shields such as Aegis and Ochain should be at the top of the rest of the shields.

#1 Ochain

#2 Aegis

#3 Priwen

#4 Beatific Shield +1

#5 Beatific Shield

And so on from this point....

---Edit 4---
In regards to Edit 3, I'll be posting the Aegis block rate formula a friend gave me here for quicker access in viewing. I truely hope to see Aegis rise back to the top 2 shields with an actual block rate that is worthy of such a position, time, and effort spent.

Lv.126 Monster:
126 - 99 = 27 Lv. Differences
So Lv.99 424 A+ skill + 27 * 7 skill per Lv = 613 Combat skill

Aegis base rate: 50%
Throw into formula:

50% + (674 (your skill) - 613 (monster skill) * 0.215 (shield skill multiplier)
= 50% + (61) * 0.215
= 50% + 13.115%
= 63.115% block rate on Lv.126 monsters

Well, I have both shields. And I'm the one who did most of the testing on their block mechanics. But
+242 shield skill would be absolutely ridiculous overkill.

Shield skill doesn't work on the same scale as parrying, guarding, or other combat skills. So it's not reasonable to compare the values in this manner.

Aegis with +242 skill would be physically stronger than Ochain on most content, while maintaining it's powerful magic dmg-. Even on the highest level mobs tested so far, Aegis with +242 skill would only be ~7% block rate behind Ochain, while having a much higher block dmg reduction value. With reprisal up, using Aegis, you'd be looking at a 94.5% block rate on lvl 126 mobs. This equates to a total dmg reduction value of -76.5%. Ochain with capped block rate would only be -66%. And giving Ochain more skill+ wouldn't help it keep up, as it'd already be at capped block rate.

So, while this wouldn't right out give Aegis the highest block rate in the game.. it'd get it pretty close.

I do agree that shields need item level updates. Aegis having a 12% block rate on lvl 126 mobs really sucks. But +242 skill is excessive, and would destroy the current shield hierarchy. Making Ochain a solo toy, and Aegis the all around shield. So all the Ochain wielders would now have an expensive toy, while Aegis owners would have the new best shield in the game.

Well considering I did mention I don't know the math on the blockrates and skill, I do appreciate you letting me know that 242 shield skill would be too much.

However, none the less. Aegis and Ochain, as well as Dura and Ghorn deserve item level status also. Aegis should at the very least be higher than the JSE shield blockrate, which should retain Ochains stance as highest blockrate shield otherwise. That's the very least we can ask for considering time spent and gil burned on such an item. Overall, my expectation is just that Ochain remains highest blockrate as I tried to explain in my OP, while Aegis trails behind it rather than all of these other easily obtained shields.

Right so, a friend of mine did some mathing of his own when I mentioned your post to him, Martel. I'll try to post exactly what he sent me, but:

Lv.126 Monster:
126 - 99 = 27 Lv. Differences
So Lv.99 424 A+ skill + 27 * 7 skill per Lv = 613 Combat skill

Aegis base rate: 50%
Throw into formula:

50% + (674 (your skill) - 613 (monster skill) * 0.215 (shield skill multiplier)
= 50% + (61) * 0.215
= 50% + 13.115%
= 63.115% block rate on Lv.126 monsters

He said he wasn't sure where you got 94.5% from. But let's also not forget that Aegis is capped off at 75% block rate so really wouldn't kick Ochain to the curb. It's just making all the time and effort we put into such an item viable for those who got it and Ochain would otherwise be used firstly in such cases that MDT is not required.

---Edit---
So after he re-read your post, he said he completely overlooked the statement of you mentioning "with Reprisal up" he now realized you were correct, haha. However it's rather situational and in the long run, that's really only with Reprisal. It leaves you hanging for a while if it is dispelled or wears off.

So logically, we're still talking about it being a fair upgrade to Aegis. If people went through the trouble to make Ochain due to the 100% block rates back when it was first introduced, then they will do the same for Aegis. Nothing has changed aside the fact the shield that does matter is back in the #1 place possibly.

Let's just be fair about it. Aegis has just been too neglected to argue right now. I could have put that gil and time to other uses. Would you not agree?

Should also mention that now that RUN finally has ergon weapon it is able to maintain similar magical defense to aegis pld while having a much better physical defense so it definitely needs a bit of an update... and ochain becoming uncapped with priwen being about the same block rate with reprisal up (dependent on base blockrates and such) while offering much better block dmg suggest it's time to get some well more shield skill as well. And both should have already gained more defense trialing them up

Firstly, Let me clarify my position on this. I'm not against Aegis getting an item level update. I'm entirely for it. It does need it. block rate sucks.

However, +242 shield skill, is excessive. It would make Aegis the one shield to rule them all. And it's even golden.

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Originally Posted by Raka

But let's also not forget that Aegis is capped off at 75% block rate so really wouldn't kick Ochain to the curb.

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I really wish these block rate cap myths would die out already. I'm pretty sure I've posted more than enough testing to prove there aren't block rate caps.

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Originally Posted by Raka

---Edit---
So after he re-read your post, he said he completely overlooked the statement of you mentioning "with Reprisal up" he now realized you were correct, haha. However it's rather situational and in the long run, that's really only with Reprisal. It leaves you hanging for a while if it is dispelled or wears off.

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Considering the adjustment to the reprisal dmg cap, it wearing early is not much of an issue anymore. And if you are being treated as a tank, you should have the buffs to maintain full time reprisal.

However, dispel is a valid concern. You could either lose march/haste, and find yourself with an extended recast, or lose reprisal itself shortly after cast and spend about 1 min with it down.

Thing is, none of that matters. Why? Because a +242 skill Aegis is still superior dmg reduction even without Reprisal.

So, you had your friend calculate block rates. But did he look at block dmg reduction as well? To fully compare the performance of two different shields, you need to use both block rate and block dmg reduction.

So. lvl 126 mob.

Aegis, +242 skill
block rate:63.11%
Block dmg-:-81%
total dmg reduction:-51.1%

Ochain.
block rate:70.23%
Block dmg-:-66%
total dmg reduction:-46.3%

So a +242 skill Aegis would reduce more damage overall than Ochain, even without reprisal.

Ochain has a major weakness, in that its block damage reduction is pretty low. A oldschool Koenig shield reduces more dmg per block that Ochain. <,<;;

You can still make some arguments for Ochain's 7% higher block rate. Higher block rate means better spell interruption prevention, less chance of ws add effects landing, and more stable dmg taken(less spikes)

But only by 7%. And Ochain isn't gonna cap block rate on these mobs without reprisal in any case. So it doesn't reach that super reliable 0 spike dmg taken plane. And when both have reprisal, Aegis block rate is only 5.34% behind.

Who wouldn't just wear the shield with higher overall physical dmg reduction AND be nearly immune to magic damage at the same time?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raka

So logically, we're still talking about it being a fair upgrade to Aegis. If people went through the trouble to make Ochain due to the 100% block rates back when it was first introduced, then they will do the same for Aegis. Nothing has changed aside the fact the shield that does matter is back in the #1 place possibly.

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When Ochain first came out Aegis didn't break the MDT cap. Aegis got completely screwed.

Of course people made Ochain, the thing was a total game changer. Incredible dmg reduction, total un-interruptibility, and infinite MP returns. While Aegis.. let you wear less MDT gear to hit cap. ... Oh, and it has a grumpy face.

Then SE acted to correct this imbalance, and gave Aegis something similarly game changing. Near immunity to magic dmg.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raka

Let's just be fair about it. Aegis has just been too neglected to argue right now. I could have put that gil and time to other uses. Would you not agree?

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You make it sound like you wasted your gil on Aegis or something. It's still an amazing shield. Against magic. It just sucks physically. Now, if they hadn't changed the MDT into MDT II, then yeah, you'd have wasted gil.

Sure, Aegis needs a boost. But lets not have a reversed repeat of Ochain's introduction. Hopefully, SE has learned enough from having to adjust Aegis once already.

Now, if they do it anyway, am I gonna be mad? Nope. I have both shields. I'll just start using Aegis. And lobby SE for a boost to Ochain. XD

Sure, make Aegis and Ochain even more broken so Paladin is even more of an exclusive club. That sounds great for the game.

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So when you guys finally decide to add the Aegis and Ochain ToMs.... I really prefer not to see "Shield skill +115" when you added:
Priwen JSE
Shield skill +112

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And why not? with 115 shield skill, it would be better than Priwen but a significant portion. Even with less than 112, it would be, though, due to the retarded amount of magic damage reduction it offers.

Make it better, sure, but don't make it ridiculous. (hint, at 99cap, it was ridiculous)

I believe they said there won't be any instrument or shield upgrades for Aegis/Ochain and Ghorn/Duraballa because even the level 99 versions are already equivalent to ilevel 149. So we'll be waiting a few years for actual ilevel 149 gear to show up before we can upgrade them.

I'd honestly prefer they just made priwen have a 100% block rate without reprisal and just remove everything else it does. The JSE harp is essentially a level 90 Duraballa, but Priwen isn't a level 90 Ochain replacement.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Louispv

I believe they said there won't be any instrument or shield upgrades for Aegis/Ochain and Ghorn/Duraballa because even the level 99 versions are already equivalent to ilevel 149. So we'll be waiting a few years for actual ilevel 149 gear to show up before we can upgrade them.

I'd honestly prefer they just made priwen have a 100% block rate without reprisal and just remove everything else it does. The JSE harp is essentially a level 90 Duraballa, but Priwen isn't a level 90 Ochain replacement.

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Well, in all honesty that's not quite right from what I understand. Yes SE, or rather Matsui I believe it was, said that, but he was wrong to do so. Ochain may have the block rate, but not the damage reduction that should go with it. Also Ochain 90->99 wasn't as amazing as Duraballa 90->99 so to make the shield equal to a 90 Ochain would be very different than making the harp equal to 90 Duraballa. Lastly doing the 100% block rate at all times would be fairly broken I think.



Ok this spoiler is here because I was bored and wrote out a much longer response originally than I had intended in order to explain everything going through my mind. In either case, if you care to read my original reply, here it is.

Yes Ochain has a block rate equal to what they say would be a 149 Shield basically, which if I remember right it's been suspected or tested that Ochain gives something like +200 Shield Skill(something like that at least, might remember wrong) basically when calculating block rate and caps at 100% which are 2 unique things no other shield has. That alone is why it's thought to be such a high level by compare. That reasoning is insanely faulty when you come to the fact of Defense when you look at these shields however. The Defense on a shield from what I understand determines the amount of damage reduction blocks give you. Priwen has 65 DEF, Ochain however has 40, if their DEF determines their damage reduction difference then Priwen at a default 100% block rate would be significantly more powerful than Ochain is besides the MP factor. It also means that while Ochain may have the block rate of a 149 or 150 shield, it's DEF is no where near the level it'd need to be in order to match up.

Secondly, if a PLD actually has any level of Fast Cast or caps Gear Haste they can basically full time Priwen and Reprisal and do better off or just as well as they would with Ochain when it comes to damage mitigation so far as I know. Reprisal lasts 1 minute, and thanks to the last update changing the effects of the spell to basically quadruple the damage being required to remove the effect outside of dispel or it wearing via time you're sure to keep that effect on you in most cases. Add that together with the fact ever endgame event in the game calls for a BRD and Double Marches with Haste being fully viable to have, you're looking at having no issue at keeping Reprisal up at all times. Add that with the fact it has -8% DT and +2 Phalanx, as well as it's Reprisal boost that triples the shields normal block rate and you're looking at what is effectively an Ochain but better in some instances so far as I know.

I won't claim it to all be fact, but this is more or less what I've picked up through talks with a number of PLDs, that includes Martel who I'm sure will pop in here and correct anything I got wrong soon enough and seems like the most knowledgeable PLD around when it comes to these things.



The last thing I want to say is that making the JSE Harp the same as the 90 Empyrean Harp was ok, because the 99 Empyrean Harp truly upstages a 90 with it's having a 4th song. You can't say the same thing about Ochain, it's just not true. Ochain's entire upgrade comes in the form of damage conversion to MP and rather than giving it DEF for a real upgrade it got 5 more VIT which in my opinion always seemed a cop out to stop it's damage reduction from getting much higher. In the end they made this Priwen close to Ochain 90 without making Ochain 90~99 pointless to get. There are situations where Ochain is the only option, the Lion WK/Delve comes to mind with it's ability to constantly wipe every buff you have and making Reprisal retention impossible, but overall Priwen really does replace Ochain when it comes to 'must-haves' in a lot of cases. It's not a perfect replacement to a 90 Ochain, but if it were then 90~90 Ochain just wouldn't matter because no form of Ochain is so different from the original that you could replace one without the others becoming equally as obsolete, they just didn't get the power jump that Duraballa did which is why Priwen really couldn't have been created equal to the 90 version in the same way even if they wanted to.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Sure, make Aegis and Ochain even more broken so Paladin is even more of an exclusive club. That sounds great for the game.

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Please take your sarcasm elsewhere and keep the forums troll-free, thank you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mirage

And why not? with 115 shield skill, it would be better than Priwen but a significant portion. Even with less than 112, it would be, though, due to the retarded amount of magic damage reduction it offers.

Make it better, sure, but don't make it ridiculous. (hint, at 99cap, it was ridiculous)

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While I can agree with not making it "ridiculous", I personally do not know how it was all calculated, etc. It was information passed to me from a friend. The concept of the skill amount was based off of the pattern SquareEnix used for Guarding and Parrying, etc..

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Originally Posted by Martel

Firstly, Let me clarify my position on this. I'm not against Aegis getting an item level update. I'm entirely for it. It does need it. block rate sucks.

However, +242 shield skill, is excessive. It would make Aegis the one shield to rule them all. And it's even golden.

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I do appreciate that you took the time to go into more detail over this, and yes he did give me the damage blocked math. Though I do rather clear this up that I personally never did testing myself, which is why in my original post I had asked for someone knowledgeable in that specific field to post the information. I also made it quite clear that I was not asking for something over-powered, just a more proper adjustment. Next I'd like to point out, I pulled the question of asking for possible +242 shield skill based on SquareEnix's trend they were using for guarding and parrying skills.

On a side note, you don't get March *2, and/or Haste while soloing in content with no Alter Ego access, while even then...it's not reliable nor the content is hard enough anyways.

Finally, I guess this thread is otherwise, "concluded" if people are against even the slightest of adjustments... Considering they are actually Aegis paladins. Otherwise, they really should keep their noses out of it.

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Originally Posted by Raka

Finally, I guess this thread is otherwise, "concluded" if people are against even the slightest of adjustments... Considering they are actually Aegis paladins. Otherwise, they really should keep their noses out of it.

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If adjustments you suggest to Aegis would affect the balance of Ochain as well as Aegis then it stands to reason owners of either shield should at very least be warranted in their replies to this topic. I myself am not an Aegis PLD but I do have an Ochain(albeit on a friends character I often use) which I believe should afford me some amount of right to speak on this subject if it threatens the status of the shield I use as being the best(ish) melee shield in the game. I only say this because I don't think the lack of a certain shield should discount any opinions on the subject when it's not only that one shield that would potentially be effected in a broader sense.

I agree with the TC. I believe that aegis is due for some kind of adjustment. The issue is a case of balance. I think they need to increase the block rate on aegis just enough so that in situations where you are full timing it that you don't get absolutely crushed. I'd also like to see an increase to shield bash as well.

I'd also like to comment on ppl who like to refer to pld as this quasi exclusive club. First off, you don't "need" ochain or aegis to do content. Priwen and Beatific Shield+1 are not slouch shields. How do I know this, well I have all the shields and have tested them. Its all about dmg mitigation. Ochain is actually not as good as Priwen when it comes to tdmg mitigation, however there are drawback which is called balance. If you going to use Priwen you run the risk of having reprisal dispelled or not having the ability to fulltime it due to buffs. For a shield that roughly costs 5M that is comparable to Ochain that's pretty damm good if you ask me. In situations where you may consider back tanking Priwen is actually the shield of choice.

The comparison between Beatific Shield +1 and Aegis aren't as close however. The fact that Beatific Shield +1 doesn't break the 50mdt soft cap is no bueno. I think SE should lower the mdt on this shield to -15mdt but make it so that it goes over the soft cap.

All in all if you don't have R/E shield and you want to be a pld you really should have Priwen and Beatific Shield +1. Anyone who just wants to do endgame and think there should be no gear requirements you are what is wrong with this game. How does it even make sense that you are going up against some of the hardest content and you shouldn't need a standard baseline level of gear to beat these NMs. No ilvl 117 is not the baseline im sorry in reference to RoE gear. You should have to spend more then 4hrs to gear your character to do endgame content or else its not an achievement.

Priwen isn't nearly as good as Ochain simply because everything has constant dispel. Every NM in Rakaznar skirmish has either multi dispel moves, or en dispel on their melee hits, as do many of the Delve bosses. With all the content being balanced around getting hit for full damage once killing you in one hit, reprisal, or any form of haste being dispelled is a death sentence. When you do shield block the enemy WS's do 700ish damage and you're fine, but even in damage taken-50% if you don't shield block one, your whole party wipes because you took 1500 damage from that WS.

I'm just so tired of getting one shot by Ark Angel Galka because reprisal wore right before it WS'd. Blocking every single hit no matter what for a 60% damage reduction is a hell of a lot better than blocking 80% of the damage 99% of the time, because that 1% insta death crap won't happen. I'd gladly take all the stats off Priwen and even lower the damage it blocks to the same or lower than Ochain if it just didn't need such a gimmicky spell to be useful.

Either that or give PLD a ton more fast cast gear. Think right now the max you can get is 30% on PLD, and that's giving up a chance at quickcast on impatiens for 2 fast cast on Incantor stone, and using 5 fast cast neuvo corselet instead of shabti cuirass. So only a 15% reduction in recast, at the cost of taking off half your defensive gear, sometimes for non item level equipment. Even in all my fast cast stuff, and Shabti Cuirass, I still need haste and two marches to keep it up full time, which never happens with all the damned dispel flying around. That's 4 buffs that have to be up full time or you die.

It's not as if the Dev's don't know tanks need fast cast, since RUN gets capped Fast cast full time by macroing in 2 pieces of gear they would be wearing anyway. Foil is easily full timed with a 30 second duration and a 10 second recast, solo, after all their fast cast, but reprisal just barely gets to have the same duration as recast with the help of 2 other people, is what I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by Raka

Please take your sarcasm elsewhere and keep the forums troll-free, thank you.

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Sarcastic, perhaps, but I wasn't trolling. I truly think making these two shields even more powerful is a bad idea. It may be wonderful for those who possess them, but you're making the gap between the haves and the have nots impossibly wide. While yes a fully completed Relic and Emp should be an advantage, it shouldn't be that large of one. The next best option shouldn't be considered useless by comparison, and it all but is already.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Sarcastic, perhaps, but I wasn't trolling. I truly think making these two shields even more powerful is a bad idea. It may be wonderful for those who possess them, but you're making the gap between the haves and the have nots impossibly wide. While yes a fully completed Relic and Emp should be an advantage, it shouldn't be that large of one. The next best option shouldn't be considered useless by comparison, and it all but is already.

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This right here is where you lost me. Priwen is not a POS and neither is Beatific Shield +1. The problem here imo is that you're not a pld main and you want to act like you can get the next best thing and do just as well im sorry it doesn't work like that. Ive done AA (D) with Priwen without any issues just to test the shield. With all the knowledge we have about how horrible the block rate on Aegis, I have friends that have still been able to do AA (D). It was tough granted and the whm had to be on his/her toes but its doable. The fact that shields and instruments haven't been upgraded is a direct reflect of ppl complaining about not wanting to build either sounds like a personal problem and frankly its retarded.

I listen to ppl constantly talk about how they don't want to make Aegis or Ochain. In response to the crying (and that's what it is) SE came out with Beatific Shield+1 and Priwen. You can very easily do all the (normal) battlefields and if you want to do (D) its going to be more of a challenge obviously. Now if you want to do (VD) make Ochain or Aegis its that simple.

The question here is really isn't a question of whether these shields can do the job in standard content. Its really all about the invite. If you have Priwen and Beatific+1 and your not getting invited to runs on (N) then the party leader is an idiot. If its on (D+) then you better have the subsequent gear/skill to be able to handle the increase in dmg that you're going to be taking. Even then you probably aren't going to get the invite in a PUG, that's just the nature of PUGs.

Considering both Aegis and Ochain cost around 150M-225M to fully upgrade to lvl 99(not 119) id say they deserve a more substantial increase then the next two shields in line. For the simple fact that Priwen cost only 5M and Beatific Shield +1 is free.

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Originally Posted by Demonjustin

If adjustments you suggest to Aegis would affect the balance of Ochain as well as Aegis then it stands to reason owners of either shield should at very least be warranted in their replies to this topic. I myself am not an Aegis PLD but I do have an Ochain(albeit on a friends character I often use) which I believe should afford me some amount of right to speak on this subject if it threatens the status of the shield I use as being the best(ish) melee shield in the game. I only say this because I don't think the lack of a certain shield should discount any opinions on the subject when it's not only that one shield that would potentially be effected in a broader sense.

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I'm to asume you sort of missed my point, sure Ochain users are more than welcome to speak their mind, but Ochain users also did not spend a large sum of gil either on getting Ochain unless you just didn't have time to farm VNM3 pops. Also going to point out, how would any further adjustments to Aegis PLD would make Ochain irrelevent? People are clearly misunderstanding what I'm asking. I'm simply looking for adjustments to an item that costs more time/gil to make than the other shields, to be a little more ...well, a fulltime shield. If I'm going to invest time into it, then it really should be something I can say "I don't need any other shields now that I finally have this one".

Does it make a little bit of sense? Like it should be for weapons too. People pick the strongest weapon and stick with it. You don't carry 3~4 of the same type of Gun around on RNG and say "Oh well this weapon is only good for Delve, the others I use for AA2 or Tenzen.", do you? My arguement is pretty legitiment and it's not kicking the other shields to the curb. It's being able to fulltime the same shield because I invested my time into that item. The other shields would still be great alternates if you don't have Aegis, etc. Otherwise, it still wouldn't really change their stance anyways if people are only looking for Aegis PLD to begin with for events.

So to say that Aegis threatens the status of the shield you use is a mute arguement... You're welcome to share your opinions none the less, I sure don't mind. I'm just sharing my own also. All I'm asking is for people who don't even play PLD or know the work it took to get Aegis and/or Ochain to just stay out of the thread concerning said items. Because 9 out of 10 of those people are always "against" changes or they are just there to troll because they have nothing better to do with their time.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Sarcastic, perhaps, but I wasn't trolling. I truly think making these two shields even more powerful is a bad idea. It may be wonderful for those who possess them, but you're making the gap between the haves and the have nots impossibly wide. While yes a fully completed Relic and Emp should be an advantage, it shouldn't be that large of one. The next best option shouldn't be considered useless by comparison, and it all but is already.

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This has always been the case. People want the best geared players for more efficiency. Always. I don't understand how it would change anything in the current state of the game to give slight improvements to Aegis right now. There are 4 shields total that people can use regardless of getting changes to Aegis or not. 2 of them are easier than cutting a cake to get. Ochain takes a bit of elbow grease and patience to get. Aegis takes several days of waiting, gil, and/or currency farming. Also those out of the way ToMs which adds more days in the process of finallizing. Then 25m~ more gil to go from 95 to 99.

Changing anything now won't change the current shields stances one bit. Sure Aegis will be more prefered, then Ochain/Priwen, and finally Beatrific. But then it's not different than the current stance on the shields now is it? Ochain is almost always prefered then Aegis, followed by Priwen and then Beatrific. The gap remains the same. The only thing I'm asking is the ability to just have the one shield as a fulltime piece. Not need 3 or 4 shields due to situational. Etc.

Sadly enough though, BRD suffers this worse in a way. They have to have 99 Emp, Relic, and then JSE instruments. That's a pretty terrible gap they made in the BRD community if you're so concerned about the gaps between the owners and those who do not have.

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Originally Posted by Louispv

I believe they said there won't be any instrument or shield upgrades for Aegis/Ochain and Ghorn/Duraballa because even the level 99 versions are already equivalent to ilevel 149. So we'll be waiting a few years for actual ilevel 149 gear to show up before we can upgrade them.

I'd honestly prefer they just made priwen have a 100% block rate without reprisal and just remove everything else it does. The JSE harp is essentially a level 90 Duraballa, but Priwen isn't a level 90 Ochain replacement.

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The problem is that isn't even close to true. If you can keep reprisal up priwen blocks just as much and blocks much more dmg. Ochain's blockrate is at best what might be 130ish while dmg blocked is more like level 75 <.<. So it's overall ilvl in terms of total dmg prevented on average is more like 120ish

And that's the thing... aegis/ochain were great but now are falling behind. Why go thru the soul crushingness that is farming colorless souls when you can get something comparable in a few minutes? Why go thru the effort of making aegis when run can offer similar magic dmg reduction and now since aegis blocks about as good as a pld parries offers a lot less physical dmg reduction than say a ergon run and probably comparable without.

REMs are supposed to top tierish waiting till they are completely outdated is how they received so much backlash when delve stuff outdated rems

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Originally Posted by dasva

The problem is that isn't even close to true. If you can keep reprisal up it blocks just as much and blocks much more dmg. It's blockrate is at best what might be 130ish while dmg blocked is more like level 75 <.<. So it's overall ilvl in terms of total dmg prevented on average is more like 120ish

And that's the thing... aegis/ochain were great but now are falling behind. Why go thru the soul crushingness that is farming colorless souls when you can get something comparable in a few minutes? Why go thru the effort of making aegis when run can offer similar magic dmg reduction and now since aegis blocks about as good as a pld parries offers a lot less physical dmg reduction than say a ergon run and probably comparable without.

REMs are supposed to top tierish waiting till they are completely outdated is how they received so much backlash when delve stuff outdated rems

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Thank you so very much... Glad to see somebody else shares my thought process on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Raka

I'm to asume you sort of missed my point, sure Ochain users are more than welcome to speak their mind, but Ochain users also did not spend a large sum of gil either on getting Ochain unless you just didn't have time to farm VNM3 pops. Also going to point out, how would any further adjustments to Aegis PLD would make Ochain irrelevent? People are clearly misunderstanding what I'm asking. I'm simply looking for adjustments to an item that costs more time/gil to make than the other shields, to be a little more ...well, a fulltime shield. If I'm going to invest time into it, then it really should be something I can say "I don't need any other shields now that I finally have this one".

Does it make a little bit of sense? Like it should be for weapons too. People pick the strongest weapon and stick with it. You don't carry 3~4 of the same type of Gun around on RNG and say "Oh well this weapon is only good for Delve, the others I use for AA2 or Tenzen.", do you? My arguement is pretty legitiment and it's not kicking the other shields to the curb. It's being able to fulltime the same shield because I invested my time into that item. The other shields would still be great alternates if you don't have Aegis, etc. Otherwise, it still wouldn't really change their stance anyways if people are only looking for Aegis PLD to begin with for events.

So to say that Aegis threatens the status of the shield you use is a mute arguement... You're welcome to share your opinions none the less, I sure don't mind. I'm just sharing my own also. All I'm asking is for people who don't even play PLD or know the work it took to get Aegis and/or Ochain to just stay out of the thread concerning said items. Because 9 out of 10 of those people are always "against" changes or they are just there to troll because they have nothing better to do with their time.

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See the problem I have here is that it sounds like you're fine with Aegis being better than Ochain in Physical as well. I disagree because Aegis isn't a PDT shield, it's the MDT Shield. Ochain is the PDT Shield, that''s how it's been for a while now and it should stay that way. I agree both shields should be upgraded(albeit not with +242 Skill, probably more like 150 at the very most) but I don't think Aegis should become a 100% always best shield.

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Originally Posted by Raka

Does it make a little bit of sense? Like it should be for weapons too. People pick the strongest weapon and stick with it. You don't carry 3~4 of the same type of Gun around on RNG and say "Oh well this weapon is only good for Delve, the others I use for AA2 or Tenzen.", do you? My arguement is pretty legitiment and it's not kicking the other shields to the curb. It's being able to fulltime the same shield because I invested my time into that item. The other shields would still be great alternates if you don't have Aegis, etc. Otherwise, it still wouldn't really change their stance anyways if people are only looking for Aegis PLD to begin with for events.

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Glad Brds don't take this stance. Although I guess a 99 horn only Brd wouldn't be so bad with the JSE harp now.

You're pretty much presenting the same argument that was made by many when Delve weapons were first introduced. However, when those were introduced, RME weapons as nearly a whole lost all of their value, since they outside of Burt, Yagrush, and Carn, their purpose was to do damage in one way or another. These shields haven't lost their value for what their respective use was. Have things come close? Absolutely, just as they should. RMEs are great for being "at your best." Look at the weapons. There's plenty of non-RME weapons that come close (some even surpass) to RMEs. At least the shields still retain their value for their respective use.

Wanting your one single shield to be the end all be all of shields is fairly silly. A buff so it's not such a low block rate? Absolutely, sure. But being the best and fultimeable without question? Never.

I'm all for the addition to shield skill to Aegis and maybe an increase in defense for Ochain should they decide to 119 them. Lets actually take a look at when you would really want to use one over the other.

For Aegis there are actually very few times that you really want to fulltime the shield in current endgame content. AA TT is an obvious example. AA MR during the last 25% of hp when she starts using cloudsplitter. Delve 2 there are various NMs that you want to use Aegis on. Now, what really needs to be corrected imo is that when you are switching to Aegis the NM isn't just casting spells lol. You are still taking significant physical dmg. Just referencing AA TT again his ws still hurt, but when you are at the point where he is casting meteor you're happy because you aren't dead like the rest of the party lol. So if they could adjust the block rate to say the lvl of a 115 or 117 shield, I think there is still a good enough incentive to obtain a 119 physical shield for some ppl now, some ppl are going to be like no that's enough for me and fulltime Aegis all the time.

The problem with Ochain is that the block rate doesn't adjust past lvl90. Most ppl would agree that there really isn't any reason to 99 an Ochain. This error in Ochains power scaling is one of the reasons why Priwen isn't a direct side grade to Lvl90 Ochain like the JSE harp is to lvl90 Daurdabla. In Daurdabla's case there is still significant motivation to 99 the wpn and so its less of a slap in the face of ppl that built that wpn to let non main brds to make a lvl 90 /JSE harp version of Daurdabla because the lvl 99 version is still way better. Not so much the case with Ochain and Priwen. Id actually like to see them correct this error and adjust Ochains power for lvl 99 and have Priwen be a lvl90 equivalent and actually give ppl a reason to 99 the shield.

The idea that you should only need one shield for any given situation is kind of misguided. Now do I think that they should do something about tp loss for switching shields hell yes which is one of the reason it sucks to do so in the middle of a fight. The only way I could think of that they could implement such a master shield is if they gave us the ability to combine Aegis and Ochain is to some kind of super shield lol which will never happen.

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Originally Posted by Aeron

Now do I think that they should do something about tp loss for switching shields hell yes which is one of the reason it sucks to do so in the middle of a fight.

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I'd been thinking of making a thread requesting this from SE.

Swapping shields and not losing TP wouldn't hurt the game at all. It doesn't have the kinda DPS potential that swapping weps would have.

It's pretty obnoxious to make 2 shield that are the best at their respective dmg type, then penalize you for switching between them.

And losing AM3 every time a nuke comes your way is pretty annoying. It's not like I took off my Burtgang. Why'd I lose AM3?

It's wouldn't be hard for SE to implement this either. The code is already there. swapping instruments or ammo doesn't cause TP loss, as long as you swap to the same type. So it should be a simple matter to add shield -> shield swaps to that

Shields and Staves should be swappable without losing TP like Instruments. Should always have been that way.

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Originally Posted by Martel

I'd been thinking of making a thread requesting this from SE.

Swapping shields and not losing TP wouldn't hurt the game at all. It doesn't have the kinda DPS potential that swapping weps would have.

It's pretty obnoxious to make 2 shield that are the best at their respective dmg type, then penalize you for switching between them.

And losing AM3 every time a nuke comes your way is pretty annoying. It's not like I took off my Burtgang. Why'd I lose AM3?

It's wouldn't be hard for SE to implement this either. The code is already there. swapping instruments or ammo doesn't cause TP loss, as long as you swap to the same type. So it should be a simple matter to add shield -> shield swaps to that

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This right here is why I really don't like to shield swap. Speaking of AM3 though, I wish they would make it so that aftermath was able to be overridden. I mean this might become a moot issue once the adjustments to ws's comes out and we can just use atonement like every other ws during the AM. If not though and its the same as before where you tend to want to switch to CDC or REQ they should change it to were if you get 300tp and have like 15secs on the aftermath to be able to overwrite it right away.

tldr: AM maintenance needs to be addressed.

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Originally Posted by Demonjustin

See the problem I have here is that it sounds like you're fine with Aegis being better than Ochain in Physical as well. I disagree because Aegis isn't a PDT shield, it's the MDT Shield. Ochain is the PDT Shield, that''s how it's been for a while now and it should stay that way. I agree both shields should be upgraded(albeit not with +242 Skill, probably more like 150 at the very most) but I don't think Aegis should become a 100% always best shield.

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Ok, so you still are missing the point. I'm asking for it to just be a fulltime piece. Not be 100% best MDT and PDT shield. Ochain will always remain best PDT shield with Priwen. Best explained in Aeron's and Martel's recent post saying we shouldn't be penalized for swapping shields out and losing TP and aftermath 3, etc..

Aegis just needs to get some adjustments in it's physical field. Not get a better block rate than Ochain, but to be trailing right behind Ochain's block rate and not behind most of the other easily obtained shields.

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Originally Posted by Malithar

Wanting your one single shield to be the end all be all of shields is fairly silly. A buff so it's not such a low block rate? Absolutely, sure. But being the best and fultimeable without question? Never.

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Clearly there is just too much misunderstanding about this subject. I'm not in no way suggesting Aegis to be the end of all the shields. I'm asking for the small block rate adjustment, geez.... And being a fulltime shield should be part of that large sum of gil put into it. It still won't be better than Ochain block rate, but it can be fulltimed none the less. That is the point of this. If you are putting the time and effort into something, you'd want to be able to just use it full time.

Regardless, I'm done repeating myself multiple times because people see "block rate increase" or "fulltime" and overlook the rest of it all then give out a "NO! My Priwen was hard to get! My Ochain took so much time and was always best physical shield! I'm too lazy to even make an Aegis so I'm against people who did make it to get some small adjustments!".

Yeah no one is asking for 1 shield to be the only one you use ever... but you shouldn't have to switch so often between shields in the middle of battle that you blink like a Christmas tree. No one else does that... and before anyone brings up the argument of brd or mages blah blah that's only when doing something when everyone maccros stuff in not during the flow of battle based on what the enemy is doing.

More importantly if aegis can't block and the mob uses a decent amount of magic moves what is even the point of using pld? You will be eating tons of dmg and status effects from normal attacks/moves while stopping about as much magic dmg as a RUN... who with it's ergon weapon can prevent a lot more physical not to mention it can stop a lot of status effects too and deal more dmg not that anyone cares about tank dmg lol

And ochain is already outdated in terms of total physical dmg prevented by shields that take at most a couple of hours to make

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Originally Posted by dasva

Yeah no one is asking for 1 shield to be the only one you use ever... but you shouldn't have to switch so often between shields in the middle of battle that you blink like a Christmas tree. No one else does that... and before anyone brings up the argument of brd or mages blah blah that's only when doing something when everyone maccros stuff in not during the flow of battle based on what the enemy is doing.

More importantly if aegis can't block and the mob uses a decent amount of magic moves what is even the point of using pld? You will be eating tons of dmg and status effects from normal attacks/moves while stopping about as much magic dmg as a RUN... who with it's ergon weapon can prevent a lot more physical not to mention it can stop a lot of status effects too and deal more dmg not that anyone cares about tank dmg lol

And ochain is already outdated in terms of total physical dmg prevented by shields that take at most a couple of hours to make

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True that while run with its ergon wpn can reach a higher level of pdt specifically 75% as opposed to a pld with burtgang at 68%, the difference is that pld can also equip ochain or even priwen (if you're are just going for total dmg mitigation). the combined defensive power of these two relics equals in the neighborhood of 89% total mitigation. When you look at the time and effort spent to obtain the run mythic vs pld mythic+ochain its about the same amout of time roughly. Imo its really a case of what job do you like better because lets face it when youre talking about these setups either one is going to get the job done just fine from a tanking perspective.

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Originally Posted by Raka

Ok, so you still are missing the point. I'm asking for it to just be a fulltime piece. Not be 100% best MDT and PDT shield. Ochain will always remain best PDT shield with Priwen. Best explained in Aeron's and Martel's recent post saying we shouldn't be penalized for swapping shields out and losing TP and aftermath 3, etc..

Aegis just needs to get some adjustments in it's physical field. Not get a better block rate than Ochain, but to be trailing right behind Ochain's block rate and not behind most of the other easily obtained shields.

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Then I apologize, I misunderstood. I fully agree Aegis needs an upgrade with skill that puts it between Priwen and it's next best non-Ochain alternative in Physical Damage Reduction so that the shield can be full-timed without dropping your Physical Defense to the ground. :x

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Originally Posted by Aeron

True that while run with its ergon wpn can reach a higher level of pdt specifically 75% as opposed to a pld with burtgang at 68%, the difference is that pld can also equip ochain or even priwen (if you're are just going for total dmg mitigation). the combined defensive power of these two relics equals in the neighborhood of 89% total mitigation. When you look at the time and effort spent to obtain the run mythic vs pld mythic+ochain its about the same amout of time roughly. Imo its really a case of what job do you like better because lets face it when youre talking about these setups either one is going to get the job done just fine from a tanking perspective.

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The problem is it that RUN is doing that WHILE still maintaining magic defense and resistance. While pld you have to actually put a physical shield on to even survive the physical hits which is beginning to devalue aegis... so even if you do carry both and switch to aegis for some magic dmg you know is coming if you don't switch back to the ochain real fast you might end up getting one shotted by a tp move... and yeah it has happened to me. Also the straight -25% scales better with level as shields just get worse as level increases (not to mention the better parry/evasion fastcast for flash and foil spamming.... though obviously not quite as big an effect as the pdt) . Not saying we need capped aegis block rates and another 40 def on ochain... but aegis shouldn't floor your block rate to the point where your physical defense is that of any other DD who can ya know actually DD and not lose their tp switching shields and in the world of ilvl 119 a empyrean shield whose focus is physical dmg mitigation shouldn't have the block dmg of a level 73 cheap ah shield... that'd be like keeping the rem staffs at only giving macc maybe some int and no mab or magic dmg on them

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Originally Posted by dasva

The problem is it that RUN is doing that WHILE still maintaining magic defense and resistance. While pld you have to actually put a physical shield on to even survive the physical hits which is beginning to devalue aegis... so even if you do carry both and switch to aegis for some magic dmg you know is coming if you don't switch back to the ochain real fast you might end up getting one shotted by a tp move... and yeah it has happened to me. Also the straight -25% scales better with level as shields just get worse as level increases (not to mention the better parry/evasion fastcast for flash and foil spamming.... though obviously not quite as big an effect as the pdt) . Not saying we need capped aegis block rates and another 40 def on ochain... but aegis shouldn't floor your block rate to the point where your physical defense is that of any other DD who can ya know actually DD and not lose their tp switching shields and in the world of ilvl 119 a empyrean shield whose focus is physical dmg mitigation shouldn't have the block dmg of a level 73 cheap ah shield... that'd be like keeping the rem staffs at only giving macc maybe some int and no mab or magic dmg on them

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What I do and this is just me but if I know the NM does magic spells I maintain 50mdt in a hybrid set and just fulltime ochain. I try to maintain AM3 on burtgang more then worry about shield swapping and trust my support to heal me for spell dmg. I haven't encountered even on VD a magic spell that could one shot me over a ws that could.

While that is a good strategy it brings up the why even have an aegis argument

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Originally Posted by dasva

While that is a good strategy it brings up the why even have an aegis argument

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You know that's actually a good question. I made Aegis before Ochain so I have always had it but ever since I got Ochain I've probably used it maybe 20% of the time. I recommend to anyone just starting out on pld to make Ochain first then Aegis and if you love pld Burtgang. All the other Relics and Empyreans are just fluff. The reason its worth it to make an Aegis though is because for that 20% I took no spell dmg and everyone else died sometimes so it literally saved the run because while I was able to hold the group was able to reset. AATT during meteor spam for example. Cloudsplitter during <25% hp phase will one shot you or just make it really hard to recover from on difficult.

Actually if you think about it. Ochain isn't even a PDT shield. Has the worst dmg mitigated of any of the high tier shields. It was a solo piece because pld has no real way to get mp back once it is gone. It's like a refresh/sipar you would use /NIN to tank stuff.

I spent a #^$& load of time making my Aegis back in the day. Emp's were the poor mans relic. The rich man should be able to be the rich man and stand above the rest of the crowd.

Cold to say it like that but that is just the way it is.