I figured this would be a relevant topic for discussion.
Personally I think the "Jump Physical Attack" modification is rather weak. Since Jump and Spirit Jump are limited by the same timer (50ish seconds) this bonus is underutilized. Additionally, +attack doesn't change much considering Spirit Jump(the more frequently used version of "Jump" ) already has an attack bonus. Even when maxed out, the effect of +Attack on Spirit Jump/Jump are not very noticeable and do not really help DRG's damage in the long run. Martel calculated the following:
So +30 attack on an ability used every 50 seconds(unrealistic to execute it perfectly every 50 seconds exactly by the way) is 0.228DPS. An average of +12 damage on Spirit Jump. Now compared to Hasso, which is +10STR(maintained fulltime basically), and eventually +30STR when the cap is lifted to 30 not only affects every auto attack but also affects every weapon skill; whereas the Jump bonus only works once every 50 seconds on an attack which can miss.Quote:
12. 12 points of avg damage.
That equates to 0.228 DPS, assuming perfectly timed jumps...
After all the massive grinding it takes to cap out a job point, we get +0.228 DPS.
Possible solutions: Change the bonus from "Jump: Physical Attack+" to one of the following:
1) Jump: DMG+
2) Jump Damage + X%
3) Jump TP Bonus
4) Jump: Store TP + X
5) Jump: Double Attack + X
The difference between 1 and 2 is as follows. DMG refers to weapon damage similar to the Spirit Surge Job Point bonus. Each Job Point bonus for Jump would be like adding a certain bonus to our Weapon's DMG rating. Choice 2 would be a direct percent increase to total Jump damage. So a Jump that would normally do 500 damage, with Jump Damage +10% would do 550. Any of these would have a more noticeable effect on enhancing Jump. Jump Physical Attack bonus(the current job point bonus) is so negligible it's pointless.
Moving forward, when the next batch of Job Points come around, please, please, please do not give us High Jump Physical Attack or High Jump Accuracy or anything of the sort. Please give us a bonus that more directly enhances the damage or TP given as he primary function of jumps for DRG is to increase weapon skill frequency through bonus TP.
As an addendum, the Fly High bonus attack is just as pointless. The SP2 lasts for 30 seconds. Every time a Jump or Weapon Skill is used, there is a 2-3 second Job Ability delay in which no other Jump can be used. Due to this, there are actually fewer Jumps that can be used in 30 seconds than one would assume. Instead of a +attack for Jumps during 'Fly High', could we get a +Duration increase or something?
The other job points(Spirit Surge and Ancient Circle) are acceptable as is.
Finally, since DRG has so few traits and Job Abilities that could conceivably be enhanced in the future, here's a list of potential Job Point categories that would be useful, along with a list of Job Point categories we don't want to see:
List of useful potential Job Points:
-Jump DMG
-Jump TP Bonus
-High Jump/Soul Jump recast reduction
-Super Jump recast reduction
-Steady Wing: Damage Taken -X%
-Spirit Link: Dragoon loses less HP when using Spirit Link
-Call Wyvern: 10-15 second reduction to Call Wyvern timer per upgrade
-Physical Accuracy Bonus(RDM and WHM got Magic Accuracy Bonus)
-Wyvern Haste
-Weapon Skill Damage%(since DRG does not have a "stance JA" to be boosted through Job Points like Berserk or Hasso, we could use some kind of Job Point boost to our damage output that isn't contingent on a 60-120 second ability.
Categories we don't want to see:
High Jump Attack Bonus
High Jump Accuracy
Wyvern Accuracy
Wyvern Attack
Wyvern Defense
Wyvern Magic Evasion
Pretty much anything related to the Wyvern as nothing you can give us through job points could make Wyverns noticable stronger against powerful mobs without making them overpowered on weaker content.
Anything related to Dragon Breaker, it's useless on 95% of things.
Conserve TP; unreliable/unpredictable
Critical Defense Bonus enhancements(why did we even get this trait instead of Critical Attack Bonus??)
Spirit Link restoring more HP(it's already quite potent)
In sum, Job Points are a good opportunity to strengthen DRG as a damage dealer but I fear the way SE is going about it is lackluster. +Attack on a timed ability at such low quantities won't result in much of a damage increase. Perhaps if it was +3% attack per upgrade there'd be a difference, but when bosses and NMs have 1500-1700+ defense, adding +30 attack to a 60-120 second ability is tantamount to nothing. To compare, Samurai will be getting +30 STR added to Hasso when the cap is raised, (which is a 250% increase since it already gives them 12STR) a self buff JA that can be maintained full time which also gives them 12% Attack Speed and 10 Accuracy and 10-15% Double Attack. STR which affects not only every one of a Samurai's attacks but also significantly increasing their WS damage(heavily based on STR). There is a huge disparity between one job getting virtually a +30STR full time bonus and another job getting +30 attack on one hit every 60 seconds.
Job Point feedback
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05-22-2014, 01:19 PMOphannusJob Point feedback
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05-23-2014, 02:13 PMBabekeke
Just 2 things I'd like to ammend here:
Make it 1 min per upgrade and we're talking. is 10 mins really too much to ask for?!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophannus
Unless they actually made it WORTH gearing for by making it +2 TP to the base amount conserved, per upgrade. For example, whereas it currently grants somewhere between 3 and 20 TP when it procs, adding 2 per upgrade to the base would make it 23-40 TP saved (when capped), so at least it's saved us at least 1 swing when it procs (with a chance of 2), and was therefore worthwhile.^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophannus
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05-23-2014, 02:32 PMKensagakuRemember that we're actually looking forward to 30 at the cap later on; -30 minutes would go way over. Honestly, I'd be content with ten seconds; that'd knock us down to 15 minutes on Call Wyvern (though they'd have to make JP WAY more reasonable to get for anyone to go that far). I'd love to see fifteen seconds (12:30 recast at cap) but I'd take what I can get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babekeke
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05-23-2014, 11:51 PMBabekekeOK, I'll settle for 30 seconds... 5 mins at cap once they allow 30 at cap and if anyone can be bothered to go all the way to 30 just on this 1 category.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kensagaku
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05-24-2014, 02:00 AMOphannus
Reducing a JA by more than half from Job Points is extremely unlikely. If they did, they might as well get rid of Wyvern's 40% DT, bump Spirit Link to 3min recast, halve its potency back to original and remove Steady Wing.
Conserve TP is a terrible job trait. I always said Dragoon should get Save TP job traits capping out at like 20 or 25 at 99 and meritable or something to be 30. This would reduce the reliance of /SAM by some degree and open up /WAR and /DRK as other options. Compared to WAR, DRK, SAM(which all sub WAR or are WARand get Berserk, Aggressor, Double Attack), DRG must sub SAM for Hasso and Store TP, so we lose out on VAST quantities of Attack from not having Berserk and 10% double attack. SAM/WAR gets 25% Double Attack from Zanshin and /WAR during Hasso and benefits from Berserk. DRK/SAM gets the attack and haste bonuses of Last Resort with Hasso as well, WAR/SAM gets Berserk and Hasso. DRG doesn't get either attack or haste naturally so they have to choose, unlike other two-handed jobs.
So I was thinking, as far as bonuses to attack speed go:
DRK: Last Resort(15% Attack Speed)
SAM: Hasso(10% Attack Speed)
DNC: Haste Samba (10% Attack Speed)
NIN/THF/DNC/BLU: Dual Wield
MNK/PUP: Martial Arts
RNG: Rapid Shot/Snapshot/Velocity Shot
DRG don't have any bonuses to attack speed(barring Spirit Surge, DRG's SP1 which shouldn't count. Could maybe get a trait called "Ferocity" or "Fervor" that gives a 5-10% Job Ability Haste? Either make it a trait or give DRG a job abilities which grant a bonus to attack speed that stack with Hasso! (DRK/SAM and SAM/DRK gets Hasso+Last Resport and all other melees get some kind of combination of attack speed boosts available to them but not DRG. -
05-24-2014, 09:28 AMMitruya
A recast reduction to Call Wyvern would be great. DRG is the only pet job that cannot call another pet in a timely manner. Spirit Link and Steady Wing are not enough to keep the wyvern alive in endgame content, and clogging up our inventory with non-stackable Dawn Mulsums is not the answer either.
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05-24-2014, 02:40 PMNakts
Call has needed a recast reduction for ages, twenty minutes is not good enough. I also won't accept any grumbles about how twenty minutes is better than two hours, those dark days are long dead and practicality needs to prevail.
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05-24-2014, 04:17 PMTennotsukaiIt would be really cool if they did something like this and added a haste ja to drg. I was thinking like 5% ja haste to drg and 5% haste to wyvern. I know the wyvern is not very popular, but I wouldn't mind seeing more dmg come from it. Speaking of which, we need those all breath abilities buffed or lessen the resists. Also, give us a larger wyvern like the one in Campaign. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophannus
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05-24-2014, 05:00 PMBabekeke
Speaking of wyvern haste, how useful is the wyvern haste gear? is it worth using, or do we lose more than we gain, by losing a 5-hit etc?
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05-26-2014, 04:15 AMOphannus
There's no piece that has Pet Haste that we would also normally use for its other stats. I'm hopeful they add Pet Haste as a default stat to new gear(just like Haste is a default stats now on all new visible pieces of gear). As for right now, most pieces with pet haste also don't have much in terms of Multihit DA/TA/QA/STP which are vital stats for us. So like Regimen Gloves would have been good but they don't have any STP or anything so they're pointless for us. Pet Haste will never be a priority for DRG so unless they start adding it to new gear which has beneficial stats for the DRG primarily then it will never be sought after(because Wyverns are still extremely low DPS in an alliance <0.5% DPS of alliance). On lower content like Ark Angels though, my Wyvern hits for 200-300 when I copy Soul Voice buffs over with Spirit Link and it had me thinking he'd be doing pretty good damage if he also had 25% Pet Haste but of course with current options, I'd lose too much DPS on DRG.
Still waiting for a Job Ability or Pet Command that's similar to Ranger's "Velocity Shot". It would be like "Enhances Attack, Accuracy and Attack Speed of Wyvern but renders breaths unusable." I talked about this in my "Muster" post a year ago. An ability like this would have the following awesome benefits:
1) It would increase a Wyvern's DPS substantially.
2) Since Breaths would be unusable, the Wyvern would spend less time readying a 50-120 damage Elemental Breath Attack on a boss or NM and instead continue to auto-attack which deals more damage in less time(breath attacks are inaccurate on NMs and only deal 300-400 when they land for full but in that time, the wyvern could have hit 2-3x with auto-attack for more!)
3) Since Breaths are unusuable, the Wyvern has no avenue in which to lose the TP it gathers, this allows the DRG to use the oft forgotten, underutilized benefit of Spirit Link, to siphon half of the Wyvern's TP stores, thus enhancing the DRG's DPS by giving us another way to gain TP in a pinch.
Under the effect of this ability, the wyvern would not use an Elemental Breath after a WS nor would it use a Remove Breath after a WS, nor would it Healing Breath after a spell at low HP. They could give us a way to override this and let us use a breath if we use the job ability Smiting Breath or Restoring Breath. But even if they extend the restriction of Breaths to even include not being able to use Smiting or Restoring Breath it will be fine. It would be easy to code, just give our Wyvern Amnesia under the effect of the JA for 3-5min and give it 15% Attack, +50-70 acc and +15-20% JA Haste maybe even throw in a decaying 25% Double Attack or a strong Store TP effect for extra love? -
05-26-2014, 06:07 AMBabekeke
The "strong Store TP" seems kinda pointless, since we can only steal it's TP once every 90 secs. With all those other buffs it's bound to get more than 100% in that time anyway. DA would be a nice addition though. But, what are we saying, SE has had no love for DRG since they gimped Penta Thrust all those years ago.
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05-26-2014, 07:47 PMOphannus
I actually played DRG during the penta spam era and it was highly exaggerated. Sure DRG could get back 60 or so TP with a 492 lance back then( I think they adjusted the Delay:TP ratio a few patches later, but DRG/SAM got back ~60TP from Penta Thrust so assuming it was ~12TP/hit with STP2. Penta Thrust did on average 450-650 damage which wasn't that much, on Decorative Weapons(with /WAR maybe 700-900, higher if DA proc).
DRG was a lot like RUN when it was released. It was a very incomplete job. In fact, it was so incomplete that in all of the trailers for Rise of Zilart, whenever they showed SAM/NIN/DRG, the former were in full AF but DRG was in Bastokan Scale armor. Everyone thought DRG's AF was the scale armor cuz they didnt show the AF(cuz it wasn't done yet).Quote:
But, what are we saying, SE has had no love for DRG since they gimped Penta Thrust all those years ago.
Since then DRG has gotten a lot, so there is love for DRG, just not as much love as SAM. If you want a list of things DRG got from 2002-2014 here's what I can remember off the top of my head:
Spirit Link was added(used to only be able to heal wyvern by resting; losing TP and DPS...)
Wyvern was given Super Climb during DRG's Super Jump
Super Jump recast shortened from 5 to 3 minutes
Call Wyvern was reduced from two hours to 20 minutes
Spirit Surge was added
Ancient Circle duration increased from 60 seconds to 3 minutes.
Ancient Circle was given a +DMG% dealt and -DT% received.
Accuracy Bonus II given at lv 50
Jump timer shortened from 90 seconds to 60
High Jump timer shortened from 180 seconds to 120 seconds
Parrying/Evasion changed from C/C- to B+/B-
DRG's HP was increase from a C to B
Wyvern given Subtle Blow
Wyvern given -40% DT
Wyvern given Healing Breath IV, Remove Curse
Spirit Link was changed to be able to transfer half of its TP to the Dragoon
Spirit Link timer was halved
Spirit Link potency was doubled
Spirit Link was enhanced to remove status ailments
Penta Thrust changed from "Damage varies with TP" to "Accuracy varies with TP"
Wheeling Thrust changed from a 1.0fTP to 1.75fTP
Skewer changed from "Accuracy varies with TP" to "Critical hit chance varies with TP"
Dragoon was added to throwing ammo
Wyvern could be dismissed if at 100% and Call Wyvern timer would be reset to 0:00
Wyvern Emotes!
Probably a bunch more but can't remember them. Also I'm leaving out all of the updates after 2011 since you're probably aware of them. -
05-28-2014, 01:49 AMBabekeke
I've been playing since 2004, and DRG was the first unlockable job that I unlocked... though I only took it to ~25 initially then stopped playing it for about 6 years.
I'm aware of most of what you've listed, though some of the higher level stuff is new to me (wheeling Thrust and Penta Thrust were as they are now when I finally got there), however, it doesn't prove your point entirely.
Yes, while DRG has had some updates, it's still not on par with most of it's rivals, unless you own Ryunohige, and that's not right. Unfortunately, it's never going to get the fixes to bring it up to speed, due to the fact that DRG is one of the most versatile jobs in the game(due to different wyverns as /mage etc.), and never going to be all-out DD.
So the 'DRG love' has actually made it go from sub-par to mostly mediocre.
Also, listing the effects of Ancient Circle is hardly 'DRG love' since all of the circle JAs got the same update. -
05-29-2014, 03:43 AMCamate
Greetings,
Thank you for all the feedback.
There is a concern that if we were to make the enhancements for each job point spent more powerful, maxing out all of your job points would become a requirement and necessity to participate in content.
The job point system was created with the concept that you can gradually enhance your jobs as you participate in content and when finished you would feel a definite effect, as opposed to maxing out all of your job points and then participating in content.
With that said, we plan on expanding the job point system in a variety of ways as we move forward, but at the moment we do not have any plans to make large adjustments to the categories.
We’ll also be making adjustments to the amount of capacity points you can earn in the future making it easier to attain points bit by bit. In the next version update we’ll also be adding an enchantment item that has a capacity point version of the “Devotion” effect. -
05-29-2014, 04:23 AMRaydeus
The only thing I can say about Job points is that while I understand why the system was implemented that way I don't see why there is a restriction on what gives Capacity points and what doesn't.
Since Capacity points are meant to be acquired over longer periods of time and not meant to become a grind you have to do before the content (the way merits are) they should be able to be acquired from any mob that gives XP regardless of level or area.
Instead what should change is the CP rate you get.
Say I kill a bunch of EP mobs and get 100xp per kill, then maybe I'll only get 1 CP per mob killed. If they are EM maybe I'll get 5 CP per kill, Etc. This will not be much by itself but will add up as I play more, while the zones that have bonuses can remain unchanged.
If I go to Abyssea and get 200000 xp to farm a ki for a fight getting 5000-10000 CP in the process would be a nice bonus, which will add up as a I play. I still wouldn't farm CP in Abyssea, but it would be nice to get a bit of CP just for playing other content.
Or something like that. -
05-29-2014, 05:29 AMRwolf
I agree with Raydeus. There is nothing wrong with a gradual reward system but it is too limited. Everything capable of experience should also give capacity points in some regard, even at lower amounts. That is the whole point of creating a gradual reward system, especially since everything players do right now is not in Adoulin. If the focus is to draw players into doing Adoulin events just continue to make the CP amount and chain escalate with the level of the monsters. But it should certainly start at the lowest level of EXP related content at 99.
Also secondly, if the whole point is to make this a gradual reward system. Do not put things in Job Points that dramatically affect the job's performance and job fixes, such as Blue Magic points. It completely contradicts what is being described as a casual reward system. Blue Magic Max Set Points (and really needing to set more than 20 spells) is a job fix and should just be natively added to Blue Mage or /cringe... via item level of the main hand. Instead of currently forcing the job to constantly max these out as a requirement for preformance. If you don't think it is a requirement for Blue Mage. Ask yourselves, How dramatically different is a Blue Mage with no Points in Assimilation or Blue Magic Point bonus versus a Blue Mage with +35 spell points (when Job Points are expanded)? -
05-29-2014, 07:34 AMAlhanelemexpanding doesn't really help anything just because it already takes so long that few people will ever max them. I understand that you'll make it a bit easier to gain capacity points. But part of the difficulty here is some jobs have an easier time getting them than others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
@ OP list of things "we" want and dont want: be careful what you list here because or change "we" to "I." You don't necessarily represent the community with all of your opinions (Though your list is pretty decent). -
05-29-2014, 10:48 AMOphannus
As an aside I wonder what happened to the test server? They stopped adding new content there about a year ago. :/
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05-29-2014, 12:40 PMMDenhamI assume you mean "Dedication" here, because I don't know that everyone wants to be able to give up a quarter of their HP for the equivalent in capacity points. :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by Camate
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05-29-2014, 02:28 PMdasvaIf that is the case then how come we don't get job points from participating in content with the only real way to get them is to go out and just kill regular xp mobs for literally hundreds of hours during which you will not be participating in content?Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
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05-29-2014, 05:29 PMKriegsgotti cant talk for other Jobs but yeah Accuracy for Hundred Miss makes so much sense thank you these points ar really needed and very important for me thats really bad i rarely use Hundred Miss anymore because i live already with buffs Like Haste + March songs the whole day....Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
short version change Hundred Fist to something usefully and give us crit or attack bonus on Jobpoints for it... i could be wrong but i would say only the Dodge points ar worth to get but not like you NEED them... -
05-30-2014, 03:55 AMBabekekeWell, max it out, and then you have a reason to use HF... +60 acc once every hour!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriegsgott
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06-05-2014, 12:59 PMKensagaku
Did you remember to spend them, as you do for merits? >.> You don't just get an extra point; you have to spend it in the appropriate category. Also this probably isn't the place to ask, as this is a discussion of DRG job point enhancements.
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06-06-2014, 09:39 PMAus81
Yes I did but still, I can set only a specific amount as in 20. currently 60/61 using some of my spells I can take that to about 52/61. Yes, I did make a mistake and posted in the wrong area. Thank you Kensagaku for pointing it out :) will delete :) there are a few others who should do the same and not bombard the drgs :p hehe