whats the best subjob for DD at 90?

is IT STIll NINJA or RDM?

U know the standard answer to nearly every question regarding FFXI? DEPENDS!
Are u going to tank bc u are doing damage? Are u getting cured? Inside aby? If yes, how much refresh do u have? What def gear do you have and how much of it can u swap fast? AAAAAnd soooo on.....
For pure DD, nin is and always has been pretty useless. For shadows to work, u need a very good eva setup that can be swapped in fast, and u need to keep ur fingers on the button, together with spamming spells non-stop this is hard to do for several hours.
If you have at least 15 atma refresh, that gives u 19 of your own refresh, which is nearly enough to keep spamming spells non-stop. Do u really need convert? Or would you like to use 10 atma refresh and 2 damage atma and top those off by convert? Do you have the skill and the gear for good SS and Phalanx?
Hope this gives u an idea of some of the questions that u need to ask urself to answer ur question for ur current situation.
Cheers

so the best SUB is RDM?

IT IS /COR.

I started going /rdm once I hit 90. I have not really needed to /nin for anything lately. Just really depends on what you're doing.

I find /nin to be the best overall sub in Abyssea. Subtle blow, extra tier of dual wield, shadows for survivability. I tank a lot on my BLU and found the shadows to be extremely beneficial vs what I did on /rdm. Normally /rdm I would use occulation, start fight with SS and just try to keep occulation/cocoon up. This becomes prolbematic when facing mobs that like to spam aoes or one shots/crazy moves absorbed by shadows (dumb cruor reset by Bukhis).

If the mob doesn't do that, then /rdm is fine but occulation can become mp taxing if you aren't using a refresh atma. I rarely ever use MM anymore due to getting Almace and using CDC as my main source of dmg. If you are spell spamming then I would most likely lean towards /rdm than /nin. The survivability isn't extremely divided between the two unless specific situations so it comes down to less time buffing/casting and more DDing. /RDM also has added benefit of faster TE farming on BLU. Outside of Abyssea I am normally /rdm for fodder mobs and /nin for solo's/lowman such as limbus.

I like /DNC.

but only reason is I want to self na myself, extra cures when i need them and cure out of party.

gives acc trait, sc bonus that you do not have to set and hasta simba.

I did not know people used /rdm as DD for 90, what is the reason for that exactly? I can get MAB I with little points and convert is useless with milkin.

what do you like to sub knowing you have to AOE large group of mobs and will get hit by lots of mobs? I do not have atma yet to oneshot crap with charged wisker -.-

I swap between /nin and /rdm as it really depends on what I'm doing. Even though it is not 100% reliable, Occulation is a wonderful spell and as /rdm with haste, and couple other choice pieces the recast is around 45 seconds. Additionally, /rdm makes setting up for Charged Whisker time farming easy to adjust spells for since you don't need to set any for mab/fast cast traits, and you won't have to set battery charge either since you'll have refresh. That right there frees up at least 12 blu set points for other spells to increase stats or set other traits.

With even decent gear choices you can easily reach the SS cap in Abyssea (seeing as /rdm gives 132 skill you will need a total of 136mnd), and with a little effort you can get the pieces that increase SS beyond cap also which puts diamonhide to shame by being cheaper mp cost and mitigating more damage. Aquaviel allows sleeping by use of Dream flower that much easier as well.

I find the lose of DW3 from /nin isn't that big considering we can get DW2 from traits. More inventory space since no tools to carry. Still have sneak/invis for when it is needed also. The other difference is slightly lower str/dex/vit/agi but it is only a 1~3 point difference. In most cases this is not enough of a difference to affect spell damage over all.

Standard DD via melee you'll see that you will require 1~2 strikes less to reach 100% as /rdm compared to /nin but at a 5% delay reduction loss. This is about the only point you will see any noticeable DD differences between the 2 subs. So for utility reasons /rdm wins over /nin, but if you aren't sporting some "mage gear" for nukes and such you probably won't get full benefit out of the sub.

While there are noticeable benifits to using /rdm over /nin it really just falls back on the playstyle of the player and if they have the various sets of gears that makes the utility of blu so versatile. Hope that answers your question a little.

For mage based DD, /RDM.
for melee based DD, /NIN.

/dnc box step does alot more than you think ..................

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Originally Posted by Jar

/dnc box step does alot more than you think ..................

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Not sure if serious.

It does less than you think because of JA delay. Steps are almost not worth using by dnc mains, much less /dnc who doesn't benefit from reverse flourish merits.

For soloing on Blu to get lights and fast kills in Aby, Blu/rdm is unbeatable. If you know what you are doing, u can take down 30 mob in 30-40 sec, max AoE damage 50k/spell. Beat that, blm....

can you be more specific aphugel ? i am a little surprise about what you are saying

which atma are you using ? and which spell ?

i like to sub dnc if i don't need utsusemi, ninja if i do, and whm for backline healing (which doesn't happen a lot). i almost never attempt to DD with magical dmg.

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Originally Posted by Ackman

can you be more specific aphugel ? i am a little surprise about what you are saying

which atma are you using ? and which spell ?

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He's being economical with the truth. BLU/RDM using a specialized atma setup, self buffs and poping JA's can do a 2~6K Charged Whisker aoe attack. Its cool to look at and useful for solo work but ultimately limited in group settings. I find WoR to be more useful when aoe spamming mobs as I'm usually with a WAR or two and I can keep my DD atmas on and I won't lose TP between casts.

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Originally Posted by Ackman

can you be more specific aphugel ? i am a little surprise about what you are saying

which atma are you using ? and which spell ?

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Atmas: MM, Stronghold, Apoc (the last two are for staying alive and RR,, just in case)

Load all physical AoE spells, 2 AoE sleep, Frightful roar.

SS, Phalanx, Ice spikes, Haste, Refresh, Cocoon.

Pull about 20 mandies in Altepa (flux6)

run to safe place, frypan, AoE sleep, SS and cocoon again.

Frightful roar, Charged Whisker, 2 hr, Efflux, Whirl of rage.... by now they should be at below 50%.

Spam all AoE spells until dead, frypan and sleep again if needed.

Whirl of rage can do 2000-2500 each.

I keep TP for Sanguine Blade, as uninteruptable cure. Life-saver!

Don't try this unless u got proper gear, got gear properly macroed, and are prepared to die a few times til u got it.

Have fun!

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Originally Posted by saevel

He's being economical with the truth. BLU/RDM using a specialized atma setup, self buffs and poping JA's can do a 2~6K Charged Whisker aoe attack. Its cool to look at and useful for solo work but ultimately limited in group settings. I find WoR to be more useful when aoe spamming mobs as I'm usually with a WAR or two and I can keep my DD atmas on and I won't lose TP between casts.

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Ideal group for this: Rdm with Phalanx II, Blm, Blu. They won't know what hit them.

Same can be done with a few other mob around aby, though mandies work best.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Not sure if serious.

It does less than you think because of JA delay. Steps are almost not worth using by dnc mains, much less /dnc who doesn't benefit from reverse flourish merits.

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Wait.... seriously? Dude I don't care what JA delay there is since steps are on their seperate recast, it takes down defense, and if your not using this.... your a f*ckin idiot. How the hell else are you going to reverse flourish if your don't have finishing moves from steps? (And no, you don't need Reverse Flourish Merts to use the ability well. getting back roughly 75% TP with a JA is great no matter what) I mean really? Why would you even sub DNC if your not going to Reverse Flourish or use Steps.... Hell the two are synonymous with each other anymore. Please, if your playing BLU/DNC.... Don't do it anymore, for all of us BLUs out there.

Yes I would have to agree with the previous post, Box Step does more then one thinks, even at sub level. Steps, Reverse Flourish and Waltz are a saving grace for BLU, and I've even been able to go back and solo Lance Lord Gaheel Ja on BLU/DNC with no items or food. Its been fantastic. BLU/DNC I would say is competitive in utility when it comes to soloing next to /NIN. Depending really on the mob respectively.

Getting a bit militant with the step talk lol. But yeah you can reverse flourish on /DNC, it would take 5 steps to get 5 Finishing Moves since you only get 1 per step for sub, which will in turn give you 60 TP back. So yeah, you spend 50 TP to get 60 TP, IF you don't miss, so it really isn't that great. On the other hand if you're dumping spare TP on a step, like you get 110 TP and use a step before a WS, then yeah you're conserving TP more efficiently, but it's pointless, and possibly counterproductive, to use steps to gain TP faster /DNC. But like Scuro said, - DEF is - DEF. If you think Steps are pointless on DNC main though you're not a good DNC, but that's for another forum.

As far as subs go, it's situational, no need to beat a dead horse, but I'm surprised no one said much about SCH and WHM subs. In general I prefer RDM for Fast Cast and such, but being able to Cure IV and cast NA spells is good for alliance support, not to mention healing magic skill does effect Fruit and Embrace. Also good for soloing when you know you're gonna fight something that can paralyze you. I don't think /NIN is that great anymore unless it'll keep you from getting 1-shotted, for tanking I'd rather rely on PDT Sword/Genbu's and Phalanx with RDM sub. I mean if you're in a situation where you'd want /NIN to tank on BLU, you probably don't want a BLU to tank :D

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Originally Posted by Yawaru

As far as subs go, it's situational, no need to beat a dead horse, but I'm surprised no one said much about SCH and WHM subs. In general I prefer RDM for Fast Cast and such, but being able to Cure IV and cast NA spells is good for alliance support, not to mention healing magic skill does effect Fruit and Embrace. Also good for soloing when you know you're gonna fight something that can paralyze you. I don't think /NIN is that great anymore unless it'll keep you from getting 1-shotted, for tanking I'd rather rely on PDT Sword/Genbu's and Phalanx with RDM sub. I mean if you're in a situation where you'd want /NIN to tank on BLU, you probably don't want a BLU to tank :D

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The reason why nobody talks about /WHM or /SCH anymore though is because there is no longer a reason to sub it. The reason why people did /WHM was because it was a great mage job, and you didn't g et any good benefits from /RDM, then /SCH hit, and it was teh only way to get MP returns, also you had a wider list of spells. Now that /RDM can Convert and Refresh, as well as do much of what /SCH can, there really just isn't a point in subbing it anymore. I was a big advocate for BLU/SCH back when the cap was 75. I even wrote the guide for BLU/SCH in a Divine Manafest fight, but ya with the emergence of /RDM, not a point anymore. I still say /NIN is extremely viable since idk about others but I'm always getting hate on my BLU, so damage mitigation is always a positive, and while Occultation is a good way to tank as well, its still not 100% (Waita Fail SE!). If BLU had better DEF, like on par with a WAR or something, I would totally get behind BLU and a Genbu Shield. Yet I haven't been able to play with Phalanx much so I'll have to check that out sometime.

On a final note, the reason why I say reverse Flourish matters, even if it gives back 60 TP and consumes 50TP; its worth if to the reason people use Chain Affinity. When you use CA, consumes all your TP, and as a DNC if your fighting an NM that hits you hard as hell, your low on MP and you just used CA; Reverse Flourish is going to save your ass. Really its just a saftey button move to help keep us alive. Thats why I fully support Reverse Flourish, and of course, why not use it if you are (or that you should be) accumulating finishing moves by using Box step

i seen charged whisker burns going and make me cry i wish i could figure out what atmas and set ups it is exactly.

I stacked MAB gear what i had at least / rdm put all mab spells and enhancing spells in and cant do 5-6k /mob kills which i have seen done on many times on multiple mobs ... crabs in misereaux, fish in vunkrel, chigoes in attowha all grabbing groups of 10-20 mobs a shot and one shotting the whole lot... its mainly a solo upto maybe a trio farm but i still havent been able to perfect it i know to use tonic burst affinity etc... but i seem to be missing something any of these killer blu's wish to share in forums or PM i would appreciate it :)

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Originally Posted by Scuro

The reason why nobody talks about /WHM or /SCH anymore though is because there is no longer a reason to sub it. The reason why people did /WHM was because it was a great mage job, and you didn't g et any good benefits from /RDM, then /SCH hit, and it was teh only way to get MP returns, also you had a wider list of spells. Now that /RDM can Convert and Refresh, as well as do much of what /SCH can, there really just isn't a point in subbing it anymore. I was a big advocate for BLU/SCH back when the cap was 75. I even wrote the guide for BLU/SCH in a Divine Manafest fight, but ya with the emergence of /RDM, not a point anymore. I still say /NIN is extremely viable since idk about others but I'm always getting hate on my BLU, so damage mitigation is always a positive, and while Occultation is a good way to tank as well, its still not 100% (Waita Fail SE!). If BLU had better DEF, like on par with a WAR or something, I would totally get behind BLU and a Genbu Shield. Yet I haven't been able to play with Phalanx much so I'll have to check that out sometime.

On a final note, the reason why I say reverse Flourish matters, even if it gives back 60 TP and consumes 50TP; its worth if to the reason people use Chain Affinity. When you use CA, consumes all your TP, and as a DNC if your fighting an NM that hits you hard as hell, your low on MP and you just used CA; Reverse Flourish is going to save your ass. Really its just a saftey button move to help keep us alive. Thats why I fully support Reverse Flourish, and of course, why not use it if you are (or that you should be) accumulating finishing moves by using Box step

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Yeah I meant to remove SCH since there's no reason to use it anymore, but WHM is still very viable. If they remove the restriction of party only for Magic Fruit/P Embrace and make Winds of Promy remove Para/Blind/Poison/etc then there would be no reason to sub WHM anymore. And as far as BLU not having the same DEF as WAR, you get more DEF on BLU dude. Cocoon is 50% DEF boost, Defender is only 25%. Armor wise Ravager +1 set is 208 total def Mavi +1 is 178 total def so it's not like armor makes that much difference, plus cocoon has no negative effects. And the fact you can use a shield on BLU without much detriment and WAR is screwed out of its main weapon, plus being able to cure itself, BLU is a bit better off than most DDs.

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Originally Posted by Scuro

Wait.... seriously? Dude I don't care what JA delay there is since steps are on their seperate recast, it takes down defense, and if your not using this.... your a f*ckin idiot. How the hell else are you going to reverse flourish if your don't have finishing moves from steps? (And no, you don't need Reverse Flourish Merts to use the ability well. getting back roughly 75% TP with a JA is great no matter what) I mean really? Why would you even sub DNC if your not going to Reverse Flourish or use Steps.... Hell the two are synonymous with each other anymore. Please, if your playing BLU/DNC.... Don't do it anymore, for all of us BLUs out there.

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By "Job Ability Delay" he means that, After initiating a Job ability, any ability, there is a 2 Second Delay between when that JA, or WS goes off, before you can attack again. He's saying that it takes away from your DPS.

When you're a DNC and attacking every ~1.9 seconds, using a Step can take away up to ~800 Damage away from your Melee phase (assuming 4~6 hits being lucky with DA/TA). He's not saying that you should never Use them. His argument is valid though. You should not result to name calling.

Final Thought. I won't deny Reverse Flourish is a neat Ability, 60tp for 5 Steps (though in reality that's more than 10 seconds of Attacks your missing, on a quick DD like THF or DNC, thats probably more than 60tp).

that and Box Step is -5%DEF!, and 2% more with each level, for a total of 13% Defense Down. It can be useful for NMs I would imagine because you can keep the -13% on over time, but on mobs that die in ~10 Seconds it might not do as much as you hope, especially if you only get 1 Step off, 5% Defense down will make a difference, but it might not make up for the Attack rounds you lose due to the universal Ability Delay.(2 seconds).

I don't deny the usefulness, I'm just saying you shouldn't be so quick to insult someone based on their opinion, when their Opinion does hold merit, at least for some jobs. You might be right for BLU, but it still no reason to insult so heavily.

/rdm- mage-like spells, tanking something where shadows kinda suck, tanking something that attacks soft/fast, good for if MP is a problem and you want convert ready- o............ FAST CAST IS AMAZING


/nin- Utsusemi... thats about all. Dual wield from blu alone is easy to reach, but if you're meleeing for damage /nin helps a little. Eva set + /nin can just completely make some NMs not hit you at all, certainly as we get higher and higher level.

lol I can be an ass in what I say, but I suppose I could of phrased my words nicer. Yet still why would you even sub DNC if your not even going to use steps or reverse flourish? Thats just straight up pointless. I can understand your reasoning for perhaps not doing it, but even so, that would matter more if BLU's main source of DPS was sword (Much as DNC main DPS is dagger).... its not. Sword supplements your magic casting more so then the other way around, your primary damage is going to come from your magic. Thats why really sword DPS isn't a great deal because really..... what damage are you really contributing with your sword? I mean no doubt you shouldn't shun the weapon and neglect getting up to date weapons and such. Yet really any BLU knows that your magic comes first, then sword. And getting them to work together is what makes you golden. Also if your really worried about that 1-2 swings, you can head butt the thing and get in your step.

Well, generally speaking:

/WAR is best for aby-xping because nothing lives long enough to really worry about your MP pool or tank. MM (sub-out SS if you'd just pot your MP back or have a RDM refresh2 you), VV, RR, Berserk, Aggressor, Warcry, SB->GR->Light->TP -> dead..... most doesn't usually live after Light though. However, if you spam CDC + Physical spell, pretty much nothing is going to live either, so your shadows are kinda pointless.

If something does live long enough, Proc5 + Defender + tank food + Cocoon + an atma = 999 defense. If you get the mob debuffed correctly, you're looking at damage from its in the 30-70's, unless its a critical.... and you're still DW'ing.... Poor PLD's..

/NIN perfect, situationally, for something that likes to use MightStrikes as its 2hour or has it on indefinitely during a battle. However, our evasion is lackluster and blink tanking really is not our forte versus anything a NIN, THF, or DNC can tank with ease. With the advent of DW2 available to us by spellset, /NIN has kind of lost it's usefulness; unless you're more on the Haste set-up spam WS+PhysBluMg, but I'd rather have Berserk over that though.

/DNC is PERFECT for soloing outside Aby and looking for spells. .... and that's about it. Unless you're in a linkshell and just there to proc BLU magic on NMs. Then you can Plenilune + Healing Waltz..... and erases your bordemn.

/SAM ...... backwards skill chaining. I haven't tried this and it seems kinda pointless to do so.

/RDM is about as good as it gets if all you want to do is spam Blu physical magic. Otherwise, the WAR or NIN trumps this one for self-skill chaining or busting out CDC's.

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Originally Posted by Scuro

The reason why nobody talks about /WHM or /SCH anymore though is because there is no longer a reason to sub it.

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/whm and /sch both add status removal spells which no other job can do. /sch also adds a ton of healing skill which (no clue why square-enix did it that way) enhances the potency of magic fruit, and whm is currently the only sub that allows you to haste party members.

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Originally Posted by Kageshinhiryu

Well, generally speaking:

/WAR is best for aby-xping because nothing lives long enough to really worry about your MP pool or tank. MM (sub-out SS if you'd just pot your MP back or have a RDM refresh2 you), VV, RR, Berserk, Aggressor, Warcry, SB->GR->Light->TP -> dead..... most doesn't usually live after Light though. However, if you spam CDC + Physical spell, pretty much nothing is going to live either, so your shadows are kinda pointless.

If something does live long enough, Proc5 + Defender + tank food + Cocoon + an atma = 999 defense. If you get the mob debuffed correctly, you're looking at damage from its in the 30-70's, unless its a critical.... and you're still DW'ing.... Poor PLD's..

/NIN perfect, situationally, for something that likes to use MightStrikes as its 2hour or has it on indefinitely during a battle. However, our evasion is lackluster and blink tanking really is not our forte versus anything a NIN, THF, or DNC can tank with ease. With the advent of DW2 available to us by spellset, /NIN has kind of lost it's usefulness; unless you're more on the Haste set-up spam WS+PhysBluMg, but I'd rather have Berserk over that though.

/DNC is PERFECT for soloing outside Aby and looking for spells. .... and that's about it. Unless you're in a linkshell and just there to proc BLU magic on NMs. Then you can Plenilune + Healing Waltz..... and erases your bordemn.

/SAM ...... backwards skill chaining. I haven't tried this and it seems kinda pointless to do so.

/RDM is about as good as it gets if all you want to do is spam Blu physical magic. Otherwise, the WAR or NIN trumps this one for self-skill chaining or busting out CDC's.

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you know i never really thought about subbing war on blu because i have double attack and attack bonus set in my spells consuming little to no extra blue magic points. i totally forgot about berserk, agressor, and warcry. i just use dnc and nin so much because dual wield II is so expensive to set.

I sub dnc all the time. Solo'd my feet seals and it's great for LS farming because you have an easy erase and can heal other parties. /dnc gives you evasion bonus and gnarled horn atma is enough to eva-tank low acc nms. I never sub it outside abyssea with blu because outside you need Nin. Inside abyssea tho, most nm's will tear away your shadows (although when shadow tanking is viable, you can really do great pairing it with Occultation)

I never /rdm unless im doing trials outside of abyssea. Spam whirl of rage, benthic typhoon and blood drain. then convert every 50mobs or so.

I do like the Magical spells (whisker is really nice), but until i get another atma to pair with Beyond i wont be subbing rdm for much. If you're only triggering then /dnc and use a regain atma. Otherwise Nin is still the main deal. And sch is still good isnt it? Im pretty sure healing magic skill effects blu healing spells. And dark magic skill effects drains. Could be wrong but /sch always seemed to work a ton better then /blm.

Here's why steps are useful for dancer and not so much for anyone else: DNC main gets 2 moves per step, 3 with presto. Thus, with merits, they put in 20 tp and get out 75. As a subjob, you get 1 step, so you have to put in 50 to get 60, not worth it.

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Originally Posted by Jalonis

Here's why steps are useful for dancer and not so much for anyone else: DNC main gets 2 moves per step, 3 with presto. Thus, with merits, they put in 20 tp and get out 75. As a subjob, you get 1 step, so you have to put in 50 to get 60, not worth it.

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Unless you want the debuffs on the mob also.

I don't get why some are saying you need a whm or a rdm+blm+blu/rdm to do AOE farming. With correct atma and decent to good nuke set I'm perfectly capable of doing AOE with a rdm+blu/rdm and find it easier than when I do it as rdm+war/sam since I'm not absolutely killing my defense to do so. Frogs, chigoe, crabs, and lizard I'm capable of dispatching with AOE for TE. Generally I'll have to only use CW+Thermal, but also have Leaf storm set as a back up unless something is resistant to wind. Dream Flower casts fast enough as /rdm to not need a blm.

I generally put up Stoneskin and aquaveil, have the rdm phalanx II, and swap into -pdt set to gather about 10~15mobs. Pop BA, swap back into nuke set and use CW and thermal (generally all I need) and Aquaveil lasts long enough to do this to avoid interrupts. Should it not, Dream flower and reapply Aquaviel before continuing. In the rare instance that doesn't do it I usually use Leaf storm to finish off or just WoR to finish off. Typically I use Lion, Ultimate, MM for this.

Generally due to cuor buffs (and dom enhances buffs) my Str is still in the 120~140 range thus my physical spells aren't hurt much at all doing this. Once I've gained enough TE I'll slip back to DD atma and rearrange my spells. As this only takes 5min of my time to switch it back up after getting 200~300min I have no issues doing so. Occasionally if I'm farming TE for the alliance while the rest are killing NM I won't even change atma back if there are nasty AOE, instead I'll move some spells around and do DMG from back line seeing as grudge does around 2400 (so long as nm isn't resistant to dark), regurg is up in the 1300~1700 range, CW and TP both have a range of 12 which is out of smaller AOE range and still does good dmg even to NM.

Part I love about /rdm the most is obviously the Fast cast, but I also have isador, homam legs, and a fast cast +3 neck I can put on for using certain yellow !! spells that otherwise take a long time to get off. With +2 body/hands cast off/recast is capped in this situation.

Only time I use /nin is if I don't have to do TE burns and I absolutely need that 100% shadow block (and obviously for the superior DoT melee). A blu doing melee can be just as destructive as a blu doing magical dmg or spamming spells, given you have at least RR to use.

Due to how much hate blu can generate without /war, I've never seen a reason to use the sub for aggressor, zer, warcry. Also I've had yet a need to have defender at my disposal, but to each their own. Whatever fits the playstyle of the individual determines the sub they will primarily use.

/NIN is your best pure DD sub. Let's break this down.

-Dual wield III. You gain the ability to equip two swords with a 35% delay reduction which gives the following boons:
*A second hit, adding whatever DoT you garner from that sword.
*The stats of the second weapon (in most cases)
*A 30% overall decrease in attack delay and a more minor increase in TP gain.
*A bonus hit on your weaponskill from your offhand, which also adds fTP to that weaponskill.

-Shadow images. Occultation and Stoneskin are nice and dandy, (I won't even mention phalanx, the bonus is negligible in any non-whisker burn scenario and should not be a primary factor in deciding what sub job you should use), however they are unreliable. The only reason these defensive spells should really be considered for a DD sub to begin with is that I guarantee to you that more damage output will be achieved while you're alive rather than eating dirt or waiting on weakness.

No other sub job really compares. /RDM offers nothing for your damage, it offers only defensive additions that are on par with or less useful than utsusemi to begin with. If you're planning on whisker burning all night, /RDM is surely the way to go. However, if you plan on doing anything real such as NMs, then I would suggest using a subjob that lends itself to DD and tanking, (if you aren't pulling hate on BLU you're doing it wrong). It's more than possible to solo whisker burn as /NIN, you just have to do smaller pulls.

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

No other sub job really compares. /RDM offers nothing for your damage, it offers only defensive additions that are on par with or less useful than utsusemi to begin with. If you're planning on whisker burning all night, /RDM is surely the way to go. However, if you plan on doing anything real such as NMs, then I would suggest using a subjob that lends itself to DD and tanking, (if you aren't pulling hate on BLU you're doing it wrong). It's more than possible to solo whisker burn as /NIN, you just have to do smaller pulls.

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1) Faster cast and recast on spells would beg to differ on "offers nothing for your damage". Unless you have Almace most of your damage comes from spells and the faster you can cast them means the more damage you'll do.

2) I've soloed a lot of of seal NMs straight tanking as BLU/RDM, Head Butt is awesome and a lot of NMs still don't resist it. #1 applies here too.

3) /RDM offers MAB2 which pushes your Saguine Blade damage.

4) If you aren't running out of MP even with MM on you're doing something wrong, Convert is always nice to have to refill that MP.

5) Shell2 + Barspell come in handy considering a lot of NMs spam aga/ja spells. Being able to nearly cap Stoneskin with just /RDM is nice too when eating agas/jas (could probably cap but I don't have a MND build anymore).

Don't get me wrong Utsusemi has it's place but /RDM isn't as bad as you're making it sound. As usual stuff is situational :D

Heck I even have reasons for /SCH but I'm about the only BLU I know willing to play healer role.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

1) Faster cast and recast on spells would beg to differ on "offers nothing for your damage". Unless you have Almace most of your damage comes from spells and the faster you can cast them means the more damage you'll do.

2) I've soloed a lot of of seal NMs straight tanking as BLU/RDM, Head Butt is awesome and a lot of NMs still don't resist it. #1 applies here too.

3) /RDM offers MAB2 which pushes your Saguine Blade damage.

4) If you aren't running out of MP even with MM on you're doing something wrong, Convert is always nice to have to refill that MP.

5) Shell2 + Barspell come in handy considering a lot of NMs spam aga/ja spells. Being able to nearly cap Stoneskin with just /RDM is nice too when eating agas/jas (could probably cap but I don't have a MND build anymore).

Don't get me wrong Utsusemi has it's place but /RDM isn't as bad as you're making it sound. As usual stuff is situational :D

Heck I even have reasons for /SCH but I'm about the only BLU I know willing to play healer role.

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1) Can get nearly the same casting speed /NIN as you can /RDM. 10% difference. Recast is a negligible 2%.

2) Head Butt's recast is 10 seconds, the difference between Fast Cast and Fast Cast II is 2%. 0.2 seconds off of the recast timer. /RDM lends nothing else to Head Butt.

3) The difference between MAB and MABII is 4 magic attack bonus. Can already get that while /NIN if you're really in desperate need for extra damage on Sanguine Blade.

4) Convert is unnecessary. No fight lasts long enough for you to run completely out of MP, and if you're solo why are you converting while fighting?

5) 14% MDT is alright, yes, but it isn't worth an entire sub. The 60 resistance from a /RDM barspell is miniscule unless you're carrying around a resist set to supplement it. My inventory is cramped enough to have to carry every elemental resist set though.


/RDM is situational yes, and the situation it's useful in is whisker burning. The OP was asking about pure DD subjobs, and /RDM can not compare to /NIN for DD.

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

1) Can get nearly the same casting speed /NIN as you can /RDM. 10% difference. Recast is a negligible 2%.

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Sub job or 8/9 points only 4 of which "might" be set.

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

2) Head Butt's recast is 10 seconds, the difference between Fast Cast and Fast Cast II is 2%. 0.2 seconds off of the recast timer. /RDM lends nothing else to Head Butt.

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Cool 5% faster land 2.5% faster recast, don't round down when you shouldn't. Point is, it is still faster. than /NIN

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

3) The difference between MAB and MABII is 4 magic attack bonus. Can already get that while /NIN if you're really in desperate need for extra damage on Sanguine Blade.

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Cool another 3 points minimum you're wasting by using a spell combo that wouldn't normally be set for DDing outside of Whisker farming. 4% is still more added to it which also means more HP healed while minimal still reduces MP spent on cures.

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

4) Convert is unnecessary. No fight lasts long enough for you to run completely out of MP, and if you're solo why are you converting while fighting?

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When you're in a group chain pulling mobs you'll run out of MP if you don't then well you won't be keeping up with me. just because you can kill 1 mob in 10-20seconds (5~ with SC) doesn't mean there won't be another one behind it waiting to die, and another one after that. The point is you will run out of MP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

/RDM is situational yes, and the situation it's useful in is whisker burning. The OP was asking about pure DD subjobs, and /RDM can not compare to /NIN for DD.

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When I parsed the combos at 80, /RDM won, when I parsed them again at 90 /RDM won again so I don't understand how it "can't compare". But then again I don't waste 7+ set points on Traits when a sub job not only gives them to me but a better version.

I'd like to see these parses, because they sound either incredibly skewed or non-existant.

Rules were:
No Soothing Lights or Temp Item boxes because there was no way for me to keep them consistent.
Same Spell Set.
Utususemi was used as needed.
Stoneskin was only used every 5 min.
Atma: RR/VV/MM
1 hour.
Solo all mobs.

No one attacked a monster I was fighting, I tried to keep people helping away but as you can see that didn't work out completely.

BLU/RDM

Damage Summary
Player Total Dmg Damage % Melee Dmg Range Dmg Abil. Dmg WSkill Dmg Spell Dmg Other Dmg
Tanemomi 858 0.21 % 858 0 0 0 0 0
Zagen 402870 99.79 % 51727 0 0 45123 306020 0
Total 403728 100.00 % 52585 0 0 45123 306020 0


Melee Damage
Player Melee Dmg Melee % Hit/Miss M.HR % M.Acc % M.Low/Hi M+0.Avg M-0.Avg #Crit C.Low/Hi C-0.Avg Crit%
Tanemomi 858 100.00 % 5/0 100.00 % 100.00 % 0/0 0.00 0.00 5 0/191 171.60 100.00 %
Zagen 51727 12.84 % 369/55 87.03 % 87.03 % 0/130 82.73 82.73 186 0/261 196.70 50.41 %


Ranged Damage
Player Range Dmg Range % Hit/Miss R.HR % R.Acc % R.Low/Hi R+0.Avg R-0.Avg #Crit C.Low/Hi C-0.Avg Crit%
Tanemomi 0 0.00 % 0/1 0.00 % 0.00 % 0/0 0.00 0.00 0 0/0 0.00 0.00 %


Weaponskill Damage
Player WSkill Dmg WSkill % Hit/Miss WS.Acc % WS.Low/Hi WS.Avg
Zagen 45123 11.20 % 44/0 100.00 % 532/2038 1025.52
- Sanguine Blade 38959 86.34 % 39/0 100.00 % 532/1314 998.95
- Savage Blade 2579 5.72 % 3/0 100.00 % 753/998 859.67
- Vorpal Blade 3585 7.94 % 2/0 100.00 % 1547/2038 1792.50


Spell Damage
Player Spell Dmg Spell % #Spells #Fail S.Low/Hi S.Avg #MBurst MB.Low/Hi MB.Avg
Zagen 306020 75.96 % 287 9 194/4461 1066.27 0 0/0 0.00
- Benthic Typhoon 4979 1.63 % 5 1 842/1253 995.80 0 0/0 0.00
- Delta Thrust 68945 22.53 % 60 0 631/1696 1149.08 0 0/0 0.00
- Disseverment 84858 27.73 % 58 0 655/2315 1463.07 0 0/0 0.00
- Goblin Rush 12881 4.21 % 9 0 462/2547 1431.22 0 0/0 0.00
- Head Butt 22934 7.49 % 83 5 194/1363 276.31 0 0/0 0.00
- Quad. Continuum 55583 18.16 % 23 0 961/4461 2416.65 0 0/0 0.00
- Vanity Dive 50062 16.36 % 43 3 870/1547 1164.23 0 0/0 0.00
- Whirl of Rage 5778 1.89 % 6 0 762/1230 963.00 0 0/0 0.00


BLU/NIN


Damage Summary
Player Total Dmg Damage % Melee Dmg Range Dmg Abil. Dmg WSkill Dmg Spell Dmg Other Dmg
Rorien 5783 1.61 % 2126 0 25 3503 0 129
Zagen 350110 97.70 % 57897 0 0 31212 261001 0
SC: Distortion 2441 0.68 % 0 0 0 0 0 0
Total 358334 100.00 % 60023 0 25 34715 261001 129


Melee Damage
Player Melee Dmg Melee % Hit/Miss M.HR % M.Acc % M.Low/Hi M+0.Avg M-0.Avg #Crit C.Low/Hi C-0.Avg Crit%
Rorien 2126 36.76 % 16/7 69.57 % 100.00 % 0/108 81.44 81.44 7 0/221 199.00 43.75 %
Zagen 57897 16.54 % 420/77 84.51 % 100.00 % 0/120 76.94 76.94 233 0/260 186.74 55.48 %


Other Magical Damage (Additional Effects and Spikes)
Player M.AE Dmg # M.AE M.AE Avg R.AE Dmg # R.AE R.AE Avg Spk.Dmg # Spike Spk.Avg
Rorien 0 0 0.00 0 0 0.00 129 5 25.80


Weaponskill Damage
Player WSkill Dmg WSkill % Hit/Miss WS.Acc % WS.Low/Hi WS.Avg
Rorien 3503 60.57 % 2/0 100.00 % 1595/1908 1751.50
- Vorpal Blade 3503 100.00 % 2/0 100.00 % 1595/1908 1751.50
Zagen 31212 8.91 % 37/0 100.00 % 297/1944 843.57
- Sanguine Blade 16972 54.38 % 23/0 100.00 % 378/850 737.91
- Savage Blade 7892 25.29 % 10/0 100.00 % 297/1257 789.20
- Vorpal Blade 6348 20.34 % 4/0 100.00 % 1135/1944 1587.00


Ability Damage
Player Abil. Dmg Abil. % Hit/Miss A.Acc % A.Low/Hi A.Avg
Rorien 25 0.43 % 1/0 100.00 % 25/25 25.00
- Shield Bash 25 100.00 % 1/0 100.00 % 25/25 25.00


Spell Damage
Player Spell Dmg Spell % #Spells #Fail S.Low/Hi S.Avg #MBurst MB.Low/Hi MB.Avg
Zagen 261001 74.55 % 241 6 0/4556 1082.99 0 0/0 0.00
- Benthic Typhoon 3394 1.30 % 4 0 825/897 848.50 0 0/0 0.00
- Delta Thrust 47179 18.08 % 45 0 573/1471 1048.42 0 0/0 0.00
- Disseverment 61479 23.56 % 44 0 794/2173 1397.25 0 0/0 0.00
- Goblin Rush 12947 4.96 % 12 0 493/1534 1078.92 0 0/0 0.00
- Head Butt 14820 5.68 % 64 4 0/357 231.56 0 0/0 0.00
- Quad. Continuum 71361 27.34 % 26 0 891/4556 2744.65 0 0/0 0.00
- Vanity Dive 46880 17.96 % 42 2 762/1506 1116.19 0 0/0 0.00
- Whirl of Rage 2941 1.13 % 4 0 600/895 735.25 0 0/0 0.00


Skillchain Damage
Skillchain SC Dmg # SC SC.Low/Hi SC.Avg
SC: Distortion 2441 1 2441/2441 2441.00


I honestly don't know how 1 SC showed up while I was on /NIN since my gear swaps normally prevent me from seeing the SC damage/animations. I'm sure if I had used Items/Soothing Light chests the numbers would be different but also would be a lot less accurate since I could have gotten 100 on one run and only 70 on another.

Edit: this is the parse at 90 I don't have the one at 80 anymore due to a reformat of my computer in between.

tl:dr
BLU/RDM: 402,870
BLU/NIN: 350,110

Continued from the other thread as to keep it on topic and not attract the ire of Moderators:

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Originally Posted by Habiki

It's only a loss in dps if your spell damage is so poor it can't outweigh your melee dps.

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No, it's a loss in DPS. Due to the way level correction works and how we cannot augment the attack of our spells to scale with a monster's defenses, it's far more realistic to augment the damage of sword DoT and weaponskills. This is common and basic knowledge.

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Regardless this is off topic and most other posts in this thread are also off topic people should just put what atmas they use so people have an idea of what is good in differant situations not try to belittle others for the atma choices it's childish even if you have math to back it up.

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While we're being childish, "they started it" etc. etc.

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The nice thing about blue mage is that its a hybrid job and there can be many differant play styles and just because one atma doesn't increase your damage specifically, doesn't mean its the same for everyone.

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It's a hybrid job, but there's no such thing as hybrid damage. You either do damage or you don't. In this situation, spamming spells is more effective on trash EM-T mobs and lower, and sword damage will pull ahead on almost anything higher than that for the reasons specified above. pDIF is broken on blue magic. Even assuming that magic spamming is the better choice, Voracious Violet is a lesser choice to Apocalypse for any Blue Mage.

Admittedly forgot to point out Physical Spells lose alot on stronger mobs due to Blue magic attack being so low, I can agree to those points. At the same time, if /Nin and not casting often you could drop MM and use Sang Scythe.