Enmity adjustment

I've been thinking about what needs to be done to the enmity system to make is so that we can have our cake and eat it too.

I started thinking about what if -/+ enmity gear gave a static amount of tick reduction or addition in enmity on top of the increases and decreases the give to dmg.

Let's say that +60 enmity from gear now gave a static +60VE/sec that cancelled out the natural reduction in VE loss. Now that would solve the enmity VE wise because then once you reach 10000 it would lock it.

Now you still have CE to worry about which if you were to achieve 100 +enmity theoretically should produce 0 CE enmity loss from dmg ( not tested). In which case you should be able to lock both sides of the enmity table and never lose hate. There would be some draw backs in that you would need to give up some pdt to get this effect. And its really only viable with burtgang but SE could add wpns and armor for RUN to achieve the same but probably lesser effect.

The above suggestion are really intended as an effect for an end game set goal, or something to strive for in terms of tanking ability. Now I understand it's not needed for rng set ups but honestly it's getting really boring to bring rngs ALL the time to events (and I like rng and respect the dmg potential of the job).

Interesting suggestion, I like it.

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Originally Posted by Selindrile

Interesting suggestion, I like it.

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Thank you, I think the enmity system needs passive increases in enmity from gear to help augment the tanks inability to compete with heavy DDs in dmg which is where most of the enmity is generated from an attack round perspective once enmity is capped.

I was thinking that a ratio of 2:1 in terms of VE enmity loss for every -1 enmity would be enough that even when the DDs reached the cap( which they will) that they could passively shed the enmity fast enough while the pld or runs VE enmity would remain capped through gear. The ratio might need to be adjusted if the spinning to effect still happened.

For the most part the above adjustment would really require at least +60 enmity to overcome the natural tick loss which while isn't terribly hard to get it's not easy either which is why I think it's could be considered an endgame set effect.

The problem with your solutions is they don't really address the problems with enmity. Anyone that can actually hit a mob can and will make up for natural VE loss. Recapping CE after dmg is also fairly trivial. The problem isn't that tanks can't cap hate so much as most jobs can't not cap hate. Even with that suggestion most people meleeing including tanks will recap each hit connected and when everyone is capped whoever took the last action will have the attention of the mob

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Originally Posted by dasva

The problem with your solutions is they don't really address the problems with enmity. Anyone that can actually hit a mob can and will make up for natural VE loss. Recapping CE after dmg is also fairly trivial. The dproblem isn't that tanks can't cap hate so much as most jobs can't not cap hate. Even with that suggestion most people meleeing including tanks will recap each hit connected and when everyone is capped whoever took the last action will have the attention of the mob

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You are right its not that tanks can't cap hate, what im suggesting is that once they do they don't lose it ie. locking VE/CE through gear selection. I agree with you in that DDs also will cap hate, but what a passive adjustment through -enmity would do is once they do cap to shed that relatively quickly. the 2:1 ratio I suggested was just starter ratio I imagine that I would have to be increased significantly to allow for a constant degeneration in enmity even with a heavy DD wsing.

the scenario would play out like this, pld or run caps hate. they have enough enmity to overcome natural VE tick loss of -60enmity. they have a relatively high amount of pdt and enmity and are able to maintain CE high which would allow them to stay at near capped hate even with taking dmg. The DDs could go all out capping hate. then they could switch to -enmity gear that would give them a net loss in enmity increasing the VE tick loss by whatever ratio SE would find appropriate. the DDs still need to think about enmity because there is still the possibility of capping hate and taking it away from the tank which is inline with the DEVs thinking that DDs should think about enmity. this way it would give the player more control of the battle enmity wise beside just turning. DDs still need to think about enmity only now they can think about it in terms of gear. when I say DD I mean melee DDs, rngs have no problem directing enmity because of decoy shot.

I think another big think they could do is make an enmity gauge and of course its been suggested to increase the overall enmity cap for both CE/VE.

Oh I understand what you meant the passive preventions of the loss of 60 VE is kinda moot (right now) since even a pld can recap a few times a second. Even if you lock it anyone that caps will still take hate away.

The increased shedding could help if it's high but also have to be careful with that. I mean imagine if you could even just make it so you'd break even. Anything could tank against those DDs lol. But if it isn't rather signifcant a good DD will cap even if it takes 200k dmg to do so lol. So in order to make your changes work better first work needs to be done on the cap itself.

While the cap probably does need to be moved that (just like increasing duration) isn't a permanent solution. Largely because dmg dealt and mob hps go up. So the amount of emnity that can be generated thru dmg will keep going up not to mention vary wildly between mobs. I purpose to change the formula completely. Instead of the multipliers being based on mob level instead make it more like dmg taken emnity loss and be based on total hp. For example say 50k *dmg dealt/max hp. That way regardless of how much hp the mob has at most 5 people can cap CE thru dmg alone (and taking dmg would get rid of some of that) possibly make it also scale based on party size some

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Originally Posted by dasva

Oh I understand what you meant the passive preventions of the loss of 60 VE is kinda moot (right now) since even a pld can recap a few times a second. Even if you lock it anyone that caps will still take hate away.

The increased shedding could help if it's high but also have to be careful with that. I mean imagine if you could even just make it so you'd break even. Anything could tank against those DDs lol. But if it isn't rather signifcant a good DD will cap even if it takes 200k dmg to do so lol. So in order to make your changes work better first work needs to be done on the cap itself.

While the cap probably does need to be moved that (just like increasing duration) isn't a permanent solution. Largely because dmg dealt and mob hps go up. So the amount of emnity that can be generated thru dmg will keep going up not to mention vary wildly between mobs. I purpose to change the formula completely. Instead of the multipliers being based on mob level instead make it more like dmg taken emnity loss and be based on total hp. For example say 50k *dmg dealt/max hp. That way regardless of how much hp the mob has at most 5 people can cap CE thru dmg alone (and taking dmg would get rid of some of that) possibly make it also scale based on party size some

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Maybe they should implement some kind of enmity cap timer once the cap has been reached that way the tank can tank even with DDs reaching the enmity cap that it would lock the tank in hate for a given amount of time. That way once the timer was up or really just before the DDs could switch to -enmity gear and drop their enmity(only would work if a static decrease in enmity was applied to -enmity gear) so that the tank could recap hate and lock it again. this would fall into line perfectly if they increased the cap so that it wasn't as easy to cap out hate so that it wasn't too easy to achieve this effect so that DDs still had to think about holding back until the tank had full control but once the tank had control that they could let loose and if there was a timer the tank could let the DDs know and say hey im about to lose hate at which time they could equip -enmity gear that allowed them to shed hate. They could make it so that once the tank's hate cap time was up it reset hate and the tank would have to build it up again. I kind of imagine it like where theres ebb and flow to a given battle scenario in terms of enmity control where everyone has either an active or passive role in enmity mitigation. Of course this only really works if there is some kind of meter or timer, and yes I know sch has libra but honestly that's not enough of a mechanic and really they should just add a enmity meter.

yeah the amount of enmity shedding that -enmity would give would be a double edged sword, in that it would have to be significant and if it was too much it would really allow anything to tank( actually when I think about this I don't think it would be such a bad thing because we might be able to see non traditional tanking jobs tanking which would be interesting to say the least).

yeah just increasing the cap is another band aid.

i like the suggestion to enmity loss formula i think that's what they were trying to achieve through the update and the -enmity losing even more enmity but really the problem with in the case of the -enmity gear is its not really utilized. if im a DD and i pull hate and switch to my pdt set, (which doesn't have a lot of -enmity gear in it by the way), the fact that im in a pdt set while still doing dmg actually puts you into a tanking mode which doesn't allow you to lose hate. Some would say that this is a good thing and while it is for most attacks most tp move will flat out kill most DDs even in pdt sets, im speaking of course of AA and Delve either because its a generic pdt set or the DD didn't have scherzo up which is really what is saving even a pld for example arrogance incarnate.

I think altering the formula is the right move though i don't think this is what the DEVs intention is because of the fact that they basically tried to do the same thing with -enmity gear. But if no one is going to use it, its really not going to change anything. And when i say no one is really using it i mean most DDs don't have a -enmity gear set lol.

Well that and most ilvl gear has what it has. Gone are the days of gearing for specific unique stats (at least in ilvl slots) because you lose way too much to do so.

But yeah that's kinda what I was meaning for changing the formula in such a way to make it much harder for multiple DDs to cap with just dmg. So make the formula such that basically say for a pt of 6 there is only 30k worth of dmg CE on any mob. So that if you had 3 support and 3 DDs assuming they do even spread of dmg that even if they took no dmg but had neutral emnity they would all just barely cap when the mob died assuming they also only gained CE thru dmg. Then thru prudent emnity gearing you could effect the gain and loss rates like you said in a way that theoretically you could change if needed (like not take hate from pld but if he gets reset switch to make sure the mages get none) without having to worry as much about DDs potentially losing more than gained since the formula helps ensure that rate of gain follows mob hp.

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Originally Posted by dasva

Well that and most ilvl gear has what it has. Gone are the days of gearing for specific unique stats (at least in ilvl slots) because you lose way too much to do so.

But yeah that's kinda what I was meaning for changing the formula in such a way to make it much harder for multiple DDs to cap with just dmg. So make the formula such that basically say for a pt of 6 there is only 30k worth of dmg CE on any mob. So that if you had 3 support and 3 DDs assuming they do even spread of dmg that even if they took no dmg but had neutral emnity they would all just barely cap when the mob died assuming they also only gained CE thru dmg. Then thru prudent emnity gearing you could effect the gain and loss rates like you said in a way that theoretically you could change if needed (like not take hate from pld but if he gets reset switch to make sure the mages get none) without having to worry as much about DDs potentially losing more than gained since the formula helps ensure that rate of gain follows mob hp.

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Yeah I get what your saying about Ilvl gear being more beneficial in terms of like a single party member stats but I think what is over looked is what a particular stat ie +/- enmity can do for overall battle flow or success for a given party setup. The problem is that even a DD with -50 enmity has no significant delay in capping hate which is why you don't see it being implemented. Better to Zerg and do as much dmg as possible then to try and control the battle through enmity control and the use of actual strategy and communication I guess.

I was thinking last night about if they didn't want to make an enmity gauge, to have the mob proc whatever color that way every would know that X player has hate locked. I was also thinking about how the mob should go into it's own Zerg like mode at this point. There should be a give and take as far as being able to lock hate in this way in that only tanking jobs should be able to survive this scenario efficiently which if this were the case that DDs would still have to think about hate control and the healer would have to way the options as far as if a DD pulled hate and had it locked to just let them die or try and keep them alive until the timer was up but in doing so would be a major drain on mp which if they pulled hate again would result in them dying most likely.

Well part of the ilvl thing is going for a non ilvl version not only lowers dps but will lower survivability which defeats the purpose of trying not to get hate in the first place. And oddly SE seems to like throwing +emnity on most melees armor lol

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Originally Posted by dasva

Well part of the ilvl thing is going for a non ilvl version not only lowers dps but will lower survivability which defeats the purpose of trying not to get hate in the first place. And oddly SE seems to like throwing +emnity on most melees armor lol

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Yeah I really don't understand why they put enmity on some of the melee DD gear sometimes. But on the other hand they did make all the JSE wpns have -10 enmity on all the wpns besides RUN. Maybe we'll see more -enmity gear in the future on more then just wpns for melee DDs so that itll be more of an after thought to gear a DD job for like a tp set and end up getting like -35enmity. I guess that could be considered a passive adjustment in game design lol. Though unless they actually adjust the formula I doubt even -50enmity would have any affect.

Im wondering if they added more JAs to melee DDs job that allowed them to have like -50enmity kinda like muted soul and allowed that to stack with gear enmity you could in essence allow DDs to gain periods where they weren't gaining hate (not particular sure if this condition doesn't already exists because bgwiki only says that JA enmity changes are applied in a separate step and aren't subject to the enmity gear cap of -50. It makes no mention of whether or not they stack to allow of periods of -100enmity for example if you were to have muted soul merited and -50enmity on drk through gear[not sure if that's even possible])

I still think that they should make it so that -/+ enmity gear has some kinda of passive affect on a players net total enmity and not just the amount of enmity coming in that way enmity shedding could become more of an option for all DDs and not just rngs/drgs/blm this is really where the problem is, I mean yes its a a problem that non tank jobs reach the enmity cap but not having way to get rid of it barring taking dmg or through turning and status effect which in most cases is not significant enough of a loss to overcome the amount of enmity gained is really where the problem of the whole system lies.

I find it really hilarious that even nin got -10 emnity.

Generally ja enmity is generally applied seperately. I think sometimes it counts like gear though maybe. Anyways applied seperately means -50 and -50 would give you a total of -75 not -100.

Not sure if that's what you mean but that last paragraphs makes me think of actually having the emnity caps be modified by +/- emnity... which would be a rather interesting concept I think

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Originally Posted by dasva

I find it really hilarious that even nin got -10 emnity.

Generally ja enmity is generally applied seperately. I think sometimes it counts like gear though maybe. Anyways applied seperately means -50 and -50 would give you a total of -75 not -100.

Not sure if that's what you mean but that last paragraphs makes me think of actually having the emnity caps be modified by +/- emnity... which would be a rather interesting concept I think

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lol sometimes I forget that enmity is % based yeah it would only be 75. in that case they really need to just raise the limit on the -enmity gear cap to like 80.

I actually really like that idea too of having +/- enmity gear affect the enmity cap.

what I meant is like in the case of -enmity gear it could be used to give -enmity on dmg and thus shed enmity when its built up instead of just lowering the amount of enmity that you would normally receive.

what if they gave -enmity its own cap that could be built up too. like if you have +CE/VE and -CE/VE I really think though the only way they could make that work is if they gave you a enmity gauge. and like if you built up too much -enmity that the mob would get a bonus to pdt because it just didn't see your attacks as threatening. And if you have capped +enmity that the mob would rage and do more powerful attacks to you cuz you made it mad.