Unrealistic Standards

I feel like i have to say this now because no one else will. Most player the have aegis&ocain and bards that have a Daurdabla have quit or gotten the gear they want and don't wanna play those jobs anymore. Even though we have more powerful weapons then before with empy WS. The problem is the time it take someone to get an Ocain & Daurdabla is crazy. I know people have been crying about colorless souls since it first came out. I think it would be better if you Tier 3 pop had a 75% chance of breaking then 100% or could be bought after defeating the tier 3. Then this would cause a problem over camping and selling of colorless souls. so lowering the pop time for tier 3 and 2 and adding another tier 2 & 3 on the map would be cool. We need more 3 song bard and Ocain paladin because no body wants a 2 song bard or a ocain less paladin

I believe they said in a dev post a while back that they were looking into adding a new 3-song instrument as well as some more powerful shields.

Frankly its easier than ever before with such lower playercounts... so why change it?

Soloed my shield in 2 weeks recently and while by today's standard of obtaining items that maybe a long time in reality its not for an item
that will last a long long time, SE said they will add items almost comparable but not better as these weapons are powerful enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rainehx

Frankly its easier than ever before with such lower playercounts... so why change it?

---

Because some steps still requires a sizable amount of people (for help if anything) or a sizable amount of currency/item that is in shorter supply and much more expensive because no one is doing the content.

With a tiny playerbase now, things need to change in general, especially in terms of Mythic/Empyrean lines. Relics aren't too bad, it's just a long long grind, but some stuff is still designed with large groups in mind.

Also, content that requires these items is usually reserved for the harder end-game events. I've never seen a shout for an aegis/ochain pld or 3-4 song bard for skirmish, mission content or normal difficulty AA fights.

But also no other job than PLD and BRD has a requirement to own these to be competitive in difficult content. Other jobs have the option of having a R/M/E or other 119 related weapons. Regardless of them being easier to make then they were before, I agree that it should have never been a requirement to accomplish anything. R/M/E's from their inception was about being paramount to the dedication of the class and having that extra edge over non-users. I don't see the harm in having options for shields and instruments that come closer to Relic and Empyrean. If it was fine for all other jobs, I don't see why it has to be any different for Paladin and Bard.

I know they've classified Ochain as technically an item level 150 item but that's their own fault to re-balance. It shouldn't fall to a player to be expected to have such an item to participate in difficult content when most of the jobs aren't expected to own similar items.

i also soloed my ochain, so i don't see what step requires a sizable amount of people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vasch

I believe they said in a dev post a while back that they were looking into adding a new 3-song instrument as well as some more powerful shields.

---

I just hope they do so in a timely fashion. No job should be made or broken based on one item that not everyone is supposed to even have. Certainly an Ochain should be an advantage, but not the deciding factor as to whether a person's PLD is usable or not. Sadly that's where we seem to be right now and it's going to take a lot more than a Killedar or beatific+1 to change things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Doombringer

i also soloed my ochain, so i don't see what step requires a sizable amount of people.

---

Sanity.

I duoed mine, we each got one, took a rediculous amount of time, I won't gripe at all if they nerf the requirements somehow, but while they're doing it, nerf the Plates stage of Empy too plz.

before the new brd weapon and shield drop i will have the empy at 90 but I have v smite and oatixars but shout typically need Whm, Pld, Brd. Once people figure out content pld fall off but brd and whm is constant but i prefer brd.

Colorless Souls are camped 24/7 on Shiva by multiple groups. It might not be so bad on lower population servers, or ones with less Japanese players (for nighttime farming), but it's awful here.

The entire VNM system is garbage. It was never a good idea. Not only do you need 75, which is more than the usual 50 for the 2nd Empy upgrade, but the respawn times, methods of popping, and competition are all harsh.

SE is DEFIANTLY not doing enough to make sure all jobs are playable.

Warrior
Damage does not seem comparable to other DD jobs.

Monk
Requires special weapons that are impossible to obtain. Oatixur is the easiest but that would require leveling another job to get the KI/Plasm you would need to buy it or a position in a party where it has the possibility of dropping.

White Mage
Requires lots of hard (and some impossible) to get refresh/healing gear

Black Mage
Magic damage has been nerfed to the point of uselessness.

Red Mage
Linkshells require cheating software to change gear and that's assuming you can get enough of it.

Thief
TH dagger has been ignored since lv75 cap. Only 1 dagger can keep up with current damage standards.

Paladin
Requires impossible to get shields

Dark Knight
Very squishy and once again, does not live up to current DD standards

Beastmaster
Jugs are a money hole and still won't get you party invites.
Charm is nowhere near effective enough to be useful.

Bard
Requires impossible to get instruments

Ranger
Ammo is a money hole and the weapons are difficult to obtain.

Samurai
Very few GKs can keep up with current DD standards.

Ninja
Too many abilities take away all shadows and tanking has virtually been eliminated as a mechanic. 0 focus on helping NIN DD.

Dragoon
Only 1 polearm can keep up with current DD standards.

Summoner
WAY too much specialized gear required to be useful. Including impossible to get staff from ToAU.

Blue Mage
Subject to magic nerf and adjustments that are so frequent trying to plan out a long term gear set is impossible.

Corsair
Same ammo issue as RNG but with added gear problems for rolls.

Puppetmaster
WAY too much item collection between gear and parts. Can't even use the job until you have a majority.

Dancer
Only 1 dagger can live up to DD standards and even with current adjustments can't be main or backup healer.

Scholar
same as RDM

Rune Fencer
Still not able to DD or tank in a party.

Geomancer
same as RDM, SCH, and BLM

While I agree SE is not doing enough to make all jobs playable, I have some agreements and some very different opinions on some jobs.

Warrior - Damage is fine, isn't used in AA as much as others because it doesn't have Enmity Mitigation or as much HP as Mnk, but it's passable and I see it used often enough.

Monk - Totally fine, use Eminent Bagnaks until you have Skirmish+2, then Get Oats, the gap has been bridged as of this patch.

White Mage - Useful in everything, only problem I see here is a lack of refresh on iLevel gear, so we're idling in old crap.

Black Mage - Great in WKR, okay in Skirmish, marginal Elsewhere, could use something probably.

Red Mage - I have no idea what you're talking about, no matter what 3rd party tools you're using, nobody wants a RDM, they had a BRIEF heyday of one-of as a debuffer in delve, until gear improved and Geos became industry standard so that everyone can debuff, now they're useful for absoloutely nothing.

Thief - TH is all they have, it's a sad state of affairs, I recently said they need something to make them worthwhile other than farming drops solo.

Paladin - Requires impossible to get shields.... I'll agree with you here, I just finished my Ochain, it was brutal, and I'm still gimp because I don't have an Aegis.

Dark Knight - Is alright with an Apoc119, but even then, kinda meh, same issue as War.

Beastmaster - I agree, they shine in 0 content, charm is usless but I like the jug pet paradigm better anyway... too bad they're useless no matter what jug pet they use.

Bard - Doesn't require impossible to get instruments, people will accept a 2-song bard, but it's rough....admittedly, they've said they plan to bridge this gap as well though, we'll see.

Ranger - Ammo is a money hole and the weapons are difficult to obtain, I agree, but right now Rng is pretty popular and good.

Samurai - Sam's DD is fine, they suffer from the same issues War does, no hate control or giant HP pool to put them over the top in the DD department.

Ninja - I recently was in a Very difficult orb fight with a ninja who had -amazing, amazing- gear, was before this patch, he had all 119 AF, swapped it out with boss gear, 119Relic, offhanding Pamun+1... I mean, just amazing gear and properly swapped... and his damage was horribly behind all the very average Monks in the group, that's a travesty.

Dragoon - Ryunohige, Gugnir (as of this patch) or the Delve Polearm are all acceptible for AAs, Drg has a little use in AA fights due to their hate clear and accuracy bonus, and people like having one in delve for Angon, they're actually doing kinda alright, but they do suffer in the DD department (other than Ryunohige owners).

Summoner - While it's true, it's a pain to get their very specialized niche gear tuned, as of the last update... they are actually pretty respectable damage and have pretty decent support with EA and cures.

Blue Mage - Falls behind other DDs, has utility but not enough to make it worthwhile generally, could use a few things to catch up.

Corsair - Not a DD job, but that's fine really, Dia+Light Shot x2 and Rolls make them fine, if you want to add some more DD to them, that would be neat /shrug, but I don't think it's needed, I think Cor is pretty healthy.

Puppetmaster - Labor of love, but pretty darn good when you have it all set up, falls behind monk a small bit on damage and HP but makes up for it with excellent utility of enmity clearing and tons of free healing, problem is public perception.

Dancer - Can't be an anything except a mediocre soloist, even with really good stuff, the patch did help them though, doubt it'll be enough, reallllllly need to lower JA-Auto Attack delay to make them not suck.

Scholar - Stunbot4000, good for Zergs, they're actually pretty good in any alliance content, but people are having trouble finding room for them in 6man content.

Rune Fencer - Still not able to DD or tank in a party. Yep, their only use is being good at soloing old content like WoE and Aby NMs that have annoying debuffs/Magic damage with relative ease and speed, could definitely use more help.

Geomancer - Same problem as Sch, great in an alliance setting where you're fighting stationary NMs, but with the new 6man delve, and in skirmish, hard to find room for them.

The current popular jobs are: Whm, Pld, Mnk, Rng, Cor, Brd, anyone else could probably use some help.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Selindrile

While I agree SE is not doing enough to make all jobs playable, I have some agreements and some very different opinions on some jobs.

---

What I have to say is not opinion. It's fact based on having all jobs 99. Lots of people forget what it takes to get their jobs in shape. But as a person who has been without consistent help from a linkshell in over 4 years and for the majority of his 9 years in the game, I can tell you for sure people quit because only the cool kids get invites and it's tough to become one of the cool kids.

Well I have all jobs 99 as well (who doesn't, these days) and do all current endgame content, frequently, with both friends and random shouts, and yet, what I offer is as much an opinion as yours, though I would argue a more informed one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Selindrile

Well I have all jobs 99 as well (who doesn't, these days) and do all current endgame content, frequently, with both friends and random shouts, and yet, what I offer is as much an opinion as yours, though I would argue a more informed one.

---

Most people don't have all of that. Saying that proves you live in a bubble unqualified to speak to what it takes to get going.

Not really, I shout and join shouts on a daily basis with people I don't know, as well as am a frequenter of FFXIAH forums and these official forums as well as helping many friends get through the process of getting started --> getting in to endgame FFXI, I hardly live in any bubble.

lmfao I spent 9 hours last night farming colorless souls i got 3 my tier 2 refused to change after the 2nd hour. Now I would hire people for there tier 3 pops but demand has gone up and instead of buying the pop they wanna charge you for the souls it self. Even if they have nothing to contribute. I swear I need to level another mule that is just a thief but I prefer not to Tri box

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...xt-Tier-Please!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Okipuit

We understand that the system is difficult but the rewards such as Ochain and Daurdabla are on an equal level. In a previous version update, we did increase the rate at which Abyssite upgrades and there are no further plans to adjust this system.

---

I agree that a huge chunk of this issue is still mostly public perception. For example, Rune Fencer just got a ton of really useful updates. People want the best for their group or nothing at all. They want a tank so it HAS to be an Ochain Paladin instead of the available Rune Fencer with ilvl 119 gear. They want a DD so it HAS to be a ranger, or monk even though there are plenty of other DDs looking for groups like the Puppetmaster or Beastmaster.

Sure the jobs aren't 100% balanced but they'll never be. Some jobs aren't nearly as bad as people perceive them to be. There aren't only 5 jobs in the game, but a lot of players sure do act that way.

My mains are Rune Fencer and Puppetmaster if you haven't guessed.. *wimper*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Inafking

SE is DEFIANTLY not doing enough to make sure all jobs are playable.

Warrior
Damage does not seem comparable to other DD jobs.

---

this is not true Warrior's Damage is comparable to other DDs, it just lacks a safety net and versatility that monk has mantra, formless strikes etc etc.

Quote:

---

Monk
Requires special weapons that are impossible to obtain. Oatixur is the easiest but that would require leveling another job to get the KI/Plasm you would need to buy it or a position in a party where it has the possibility of dropping.

---

This one imho needs some nerfing, excellent DD with lots of ways to avoid damage/or set up a safety net, too much versatility with formless strikes, mantra etc.
just look at the base damage increas the hand to hand weapons got from lvl 75 to ilvl 119 compared to any other weapon... they gained the most % DPS wise. Either bumped their damage down or nerf their versatility/safety net.

Quote:

---

White Mage
Requires lots of hard (and some impossible) to get refresh/healing gear

---

sorry but whm is one of the most easiest jobs to gear, lots of gear is basicly thrown at you, you can easy reach a cure potency cap with skirmish gear and some stave etc.
Enhancing magic skill is easy to cap too
debuff gear needs more work, but lol debuffs.

Quote:

---

Black Mage
Magic damage has been nerfed to the point of uselessness.

---

I dont know in what world you live, while yes magic damage is not even near to melee DD, its by far not worthless like it was months ago. Magic damage has been catching up lately with all the adjustments they made and with the gear they release, its decent and far away from laughable, still no competition to fully decked melees, but its getting there

Quote:

---

Red Mage
Linkshells require cheating software to change gear and that's assuming you can get enough of it.

---

wut, this sentence makes no sense

Quote:

---

Thief
TH dagger has been ignored since lv75 cap. Only 1 dagger can keep up with current damage standards.

---

Thief needs a little bit help yes, but its not that bad

Quote:

---

Paladin
Requires impossible to get shields

---

actually it doesnt, killedar shield does a very good job, you just need to gear correctly for it. while yes brochain and aegis make it really easy. a good player should be ably to tank everything (even hardmode) without any of them, just need to gear differently and have different buffs.

Quote:

---

Dark Knight
Very squishy and once again, does not live up to current DD standards

---

same problem as WAR look above (monk is the reason)

Quote:

---

Beastmaster
Jugs are a money hole and still won't get you party invites.
Charm is nowhere near effective enough to be useful.

---

i played BST extensivly at lvl 75, i have frankly no idea where it stands now powerwise, BUT just allowing brd/cor/geo buffs to apply to pets would prolly balance the job. Because in unbuffed situations its not bad compared to other melees, the problem is when buffs come into play that their pets cant benefit from.

Quote:

---

Bard
Requires impossible to get instruments

---

does not, a 2 brd song is still very good, of course not as good as a 3 or 4 song brd, but still very good and can do its job, the problem is the playerbase NOT the job itself.

Quote:

---

Ranger
Ammo is a money hole and the weapons are difficult to obtain.

---

NOT true at all, ammo is nowhere a money hole with the new recycle, you dont need that much anymore and the weapons are somewhat decent to obtain, unless we are talking about relic. and even those arent THAT hard to obtain. you can get them solo via gil farming

Quote:

---

Samurai
Very few GKs can keep up with current DD standards.

---

again not true, see above like war and drk

Quote:

---

Ninja
Too many abilities take away all shadows and tanking has virtually been eliminated as a mechanic. 0 focus on helping NIN DD.

---

Nin is still very strong in lowman situations, some strategy beating Verydifficult AAs involve NIN NIN THF BRD COR WHM. Shadows have made a comeback with AAs actually, but the job needs a tiny bit something, maybe reworking yonnin/innin not to scale overtime would help a great deal.

Quote:

---

Dragoon
Only 1 polearm can keep up with current DD standards.

---

DRG needs some help yes, mostly because its damage is so subjob dependend.

Quote:

---

Summoner
WAY too much specialized gear required to be useful. Including impossible to get staff from ToAU.

---

what are you talking about, did you look at any of the easy to get ilvl staffs for smn? its like YOU HAVENT played this game in years.

Quote:

---

Blue Mage
Subject to magic nerf and adjustments that are so frequent trying to plan out a long term gear set is impossible.

---

again wut? wut? BLU is very decent and can rack out damage if wanted, the only thing it lacks is a tiny bit more power in blu spells and more spellset points to set more spells and traits thats it

Quote:

---

Corsair
Same ammo issue as RNG but with added gear problems for rolls.

---

AGAIN recycle update fixed ammo issue, and there is no gear problems for roll. like seriously, WHEN was the LAST time you played, you trolling? very good buffer

Quote:

---

Puppetmaster
WAY too much item collection between gear and parts. Can't even use the job until you have a majority.

---

the only thing holding PUP back ist dumb JA-delay that destroys their DPS

Quote:

---

Dancer
Only 1 dagger can live up to DD standards and even with current adjustments can't be main or backup healer.

---

see PUP

Quote:

---

Scholar
same as RDM

---

ok I have to stop laughing hahahaha, you have no idea of sch it seems

Quote:

---

Rune Fencer
Still not able to DD or tank in a party.

---

This is actualyl the only one i agree with you

Quote:

---

Geomancer
same as RDM, SCH, and BLM

---

oh lord of heaven... Geo is like the strongest debuffer for ANY ally content, the job just has a problem fitting into 6 man setups because they are usually not static but more mobile, which isnt GEOs streanght, but in static Alliance content it destroys cor and brd with its debuff that benefit the whole alliance.

I am sorry to say this, but you sound like you havent played FFXI for like years

Lol Damane, that's the exact impression I got of him, and I agreed with you 99%, as you can tell our posts are pretty similar.

New troll added.

You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Selindrile

You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

---

Troll = anyone who disagrees with Inafking. I'm pretty sure that at this point he has at least half the forum's members on his ignore list. I had him on there too for some reason, then I took him off because I forgot that reason, and I think it's time to put the guy back on.

inafking:

spoilered because wall of text.

how is the issue that "SE isn't doing enough to keep all the jobs playable" when according to you, EVERY job is unplayable?

maybe the issue here isn't the jobs man... i mean you are at the very LEAST, blatently misinformed.


corsair: gear issues for rolls? you need literally 6 items to function as a corsair: gun, bullet, trump cards, luzaf ring, relic hat, emp hands. the rest of the slots could be empty and it wouldn't matter so long as you actually played competently. i've beaten delve with that corsair in my pt. i've beaten VD AA with that corsair in my pt. MOST of the players i know HAVE that corsair because it's just THAT easy.

paladin: admittedly aegis and ochain are greatly favored, but to give an example: i have personally tanked VD AAMR without an aegis. right on through cloudsplitter. without dieing. any paladin running an aegis against cloudsplitter must be able to survive rampage without his ochain, because once MR starts cloudsplitter, she doesn't EXCLUSIVELY use cloudsplitter. therefore, you can survive cloudsplitter without aegis, and you can survive rampage without ochain. if you and your party are on their game, it should be completely doable without a relic/emp shield, and that's one of the meanest examples i can think of. (and again, ochain/aegis are not HARD. any idiot can walk into abyssea/dynamis and come out with souls/currency. now whether he's willing to do it a few hundred times is another matter entirely)

beastmaster: prints money for any aware player. farm dynamis, make bank. it is sub-par in a party situation, but it's beastmaster. it's always been the solo job. poor BST, i didn't see any warriors soloing literally everything in abyssea back at the 90 cap?

BLM: magic damage is better than it has ever been. it still has the issues of not benefiting from haste and eventually running out. but to say it's been NERFED lately? that is just factually incorrect.

SMN and PUP: wow, unique jobs require unique gear. also, there's probably about 10-20 SMN mythics in existence, ever. and probably only 1-2 on carbuncle. how did this become your idea of the required standard?

blu: again, magic wasn't nerfed, but magic damage hasn't been blu's focus for a long time now. you bring blu because you need requiescat. the spells are just utility gravy. if you're gearing your blu for all out nuking, you're generally just wrong. and it's been that way since at LEAST abyssea. not at all "so frequent trying to plan out a long term gear set is impossible."

ninja: is situational at best in current endgame, but creative people who actually want to make the job work have found ways to make it work, AAGK for example is very shadow-able. not to mention that it just about runs lower tier content.

RNG: recycle exists, and the best ammos come from plasm anyway. if you don't wanna play ranger then don't play ranger, i don't. but the cost of ammo is a non-factor.

every other melee DPS job: one of them is best now. but a year ago a different one of them was best. and 6 months before that that other one was best. and so on into the entire history of FFXI. i can't wait until DRG is the best DD again, it's been the longest since it's last turn.

white mage: same as cor, fairly easy to gear. nobody resists or evades a cure. emp +2 legs, emp +2 body, skirmish gear and even a ToTM stave to cap cure potency. then start picking up fast cast or cure casting time.

SCH, RDM and GEO: this simply comes off as petty "anyone trying harder than me must be cheating" i've been swapping gear since the dunes, on my playstation 2. other players have been not swapping gear for just as long regardless of what system they're on. if they don't care enough to try, that's their problem. it is true RDM needs a lot of gear, but it comes with the territory. the job that tries to be 3 other jobs needs lots of gear. if you didn't see that coming whose fault is it really?

sorry man, but making such outlandish statements with the expectation of the game being changed to fix what you PERCEIVE to be wrong with it, when your perception is so demonstrably flawed, would be dangerous if nobody spoke up against it. silence could imply consent.

this post got really long and really messy but i hope it helps, i really do. you seem stuck man. like you've given up trying and now you want it to be the games fault. with any luck this will put the games "requirements" in perspective.

to be fair here i understand that most players will attempt to bring the best, but that is hardly their fault when they can get it.

and you can hardly fault SE when the players who cannot get the best, can simply turn down the difficulty of the game.

do some skirmish, do some dynamis, pick up those key emp pieces or sets, get some bayld and some sparks, tag along on some wildskeepers, do some less than VD AAs, sit down one night and write up some macros, then organize them and practice them so you can go through them quickly. none of that stuff is hard, anybody CAN do it, you just have to want to.

and if you really don't want to, what DO you want to do? cuz it sounds like you just wanna leapfrog to the hardest endgame stuff as though you were somehow OWED an invite?


and before you say it, NONE of that was me trolling. don't stick your fingers in your ears and yell troll just because someone disagrees with you. it doesn't make you right, it just makes you alone.

blech... this is a wall of text...

Well i think the issue isn't the jobs but the players are unwilling to try newer tactics. If you think about it once all the brd and pld on the server get all the gear from AA and SKCNM then that content will die.