Here is a pretty simple idea that I think will be a home run if everyone takes a moment to read what I have to say.
My Proposal: Instead of creating support jobs based off of the LV. 99 version of a job, I believe that there should be completely new Jobs that function only and exclusively as support jobs
Support jobs have always been based off of the halved version of a real job
ex.) PLD 99 --> PLD 49
PUP 99 --> PUP 49
SMN 99 --> SMN 49
But, in a lot of cases, just because a job can be used as a support job doesn't mean it necessarily is useful as a support job. The examples shown above are jobs that are capable of being used as support jobs, but are not by any means optimal in comparison to other support jobs. They still can be useful in certain situations, however.
The point is Square Enix, I don't believe, creates all jobs equally with the intention of them both being useful as a Lv. 99 job and a support job. /WAR /RDM /NIN are all great examples of useful support jobs, but /BST /GEO /PUP can all be very questionable support jobs if you're trying to be useful in end game content.
If we implement job classes that are specifically meant to be support jobs, then we can cater to different jobs classes that don't have support jobs that necessarily benefit their job.
Here are some examples
Support Job: Medic - This support job can completely unique job abilities and spells from all other healing classes that help specifically with healing and conserving mp.
Support Job: Viking - This support job can focus on defensive job abilities, job traits, and spells that benefit close line jobs and tanking jobs like Paladin and Rune Fencer.
Support Job: Herder - This support job can give job abilities, job traits, and even spells that are especially beneficial for all pet jobs including Dragoon, Beastmaster, Puppetmaster, and Summoner.
Support Job: Berserker - This class can focus on job abilities and job traits that enhance front lines damage dealing jobs including Monk, Samurai, Dark Knight, and other classes. Job traits could be things like dual wield, enhances acc and attack
These types of support jobs can be "General" type support jobs that benefit a variety of job classes while also being a little bit more focused on certain types of fighting whether that is magic, meleeing, or tanking.
The idea behind these support jobs are that when they're unlocked, the support jobs do not need to be leveled, they can be immediately used and are always half of your main classes level. This means that when these new support jobs are implemented, no man time is necessary to create job specific gear or quest lines that go with these classes. They could be unlocked by purchasing the class from a NPC or doing a simple mini quest which would allow Square Enix to implement a lot of new support jobs that benefit specific jobs and class categories. The support job classes are meant to only reach level 49 (or whatever half the level cap is at the time.)
A next class of jobs exclusive to support jobs could be some of the more popular selections that the player base ask to have to have implemented as real jobs.
Support Job: Time Mage - Grants access to spells such as haste II and or hasteja, Slow II and or Slowja, Reflect, Gravity/Graviga, Stop/Break and could carry innate job traits such as Haste 5~15%, movement speed +18%. All sorts of fun stuff.
Support Job: Necromancer
This support job can give access to spells like death, high level dark magic, and other new black magic exclusive to its job.
Support Job: Onion Knight - Grants access to a large variety of job traits and job abilities such as provoke, sentinel, waltzes, meditate, steal, and even access to more general spells like cures, enspells, protect, shell, sleep (of course this could be powerful as a support job, but just an example of how the job class works). The job abilities and spells accessible at a given time could be similar to how blue mage sets their magic spells, so that you can't have every job ability from every class on at the same time. And the job abilities accessible can be more general so that other support jobs are obviously still useful.
Anyway, I think by implementing exclusive support jobs, players can diversify their support jobs depending on the situation and not necessarily be stuck with support jobs like RDM, WHM, WAR, NIN, DNC. Jobs like Puppetmaster, Beastmaster, Geomancer, Scholar, Bard that don't really have support jobs that really fit their job can have more options. And even jobs like Paladin who typically support /RDM, /War, or /NIN can use new support classes like /berserker to help them damage deal better in cases where they are soloing.
Square Enix can also implement new and useful support job classes without really worrying about putting too much man power into it. All they would have to do is create a few new job abilities and spells along with possibly some mini quest.
New Jobs that can only be selected as Support Jobs
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02-11-2014, 12:58 PMJinzhaNew Jobs that can only be selected as Support Jobs
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02-13-2014, 02:35 AMElexia
While interesting they already tried that and found people rather have taken em fully - Scholar and Dancer were originally designed as 'sub only' jobs or jobs specifically designed to enhance main jobs through sub abilities. Necromancer = PUP due to the cop out of not wanting undead during the day since they'll only be 'useful at parts of the day". So throwing in Necromancer now would be weird specially as a sub only.
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02-13-2014, 10:28 AMJinzhaI actually don't remember hearing anything about Dancer and Scholar being intended as support job only classes, but I can definitely see how they were modeled to be very beneficial as support classes. However, I don't think that the idea of creating sub only jobs should be dismissed just based off your point. If what you said is true, players decided they would prefer scholar and Dancer as full jobs instead of sub jobs all the way back in 2007 or even earlier (around the time WoTG came out) and the FFXI in 2007 is completely different from 2014 FFXI. I think the demands of today's Final Fantasy 11 are a bit different than back then and making sub job classes should be looked at again even if it wasn't as popular seven years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
Also my point of creating support classes like Necromancer, Time Mage, and Onion Knight was just things that Square Enix could potentially do with creating sub only jobs. Although creating these job classes would be a cool way to implement new jobs that everyone has always wanted to play without requiring much work on the development team's part, I think that it's more important to emphasis more general support jobs like the ones that I stated in my first comment: Berserker, Herder, Medic, and Viking (The names don't necessarily matter).
The idea is that by creating these support classes, players can sub unique jobs that augment more specific skills and fighting styles.
Support Job: Herder - If a pet job like Beastmaster or Puppetmaster wanted to fight a really difficult monster only using their pet and having the player stand back, there is currently no support job that would be beneficial to this fighting style. Sub /Nin, /War, and sometimes some sort a mage job like /RDM are about the only few options that pet jobs have that do little to help their actual job class. By subbing a class like Herder they could get additional job abilities and traits that could cure their pet and increase their pets attack and accuracy that would actually be useful in a situation where they're emphasizing more pet usage.
It's kind of like how Beastmaster can't sub Puppetmaster (BST/PUP) and use Repair to additionally cure their pet in situations where they need more pet healing, but if they created Herder then a BST could sub Herder (BST/HRD) and have that more pet oriented support job.
This same concept applies to all fighting styles, support classes could be created that may emphasize certain tactics: Curing, Damage Dealing, Tanking, Nuking, Support Line (Enhancing magic like haste, protect, shell). Jobs that don't have support jobs that necessarily enhance certain traits they need to work effectively could finally have more specific support job choices that optimizes their potential. -
02-13-2014, 10:37 AMCamiieThey were designed as complete jobs from the start like all the rest. DNC just suffers from a severe case of hybrid bias when it comes to group content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinzha
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02-13-2014, 10:54 AMJinzhaYeah I was pretty sure that they were intended as complete jobs from the beginning, but if someone can show proof that they were not, I'd be more than happy to see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camiie
Also it is a bit unfortunate that certain jobs really don't have a place in group content like Dancer, Thief, Beastmaster, Dragoon, Summoner, and Puppetmaster... There are plenty of other jobs that really are not as needed as they used to be like Red Mage, but I would hope that at some point Square Enix will do a better job to balance out jobs so that there really isn't a natural bias to what jobs can be used.
Players should be able to select any job that they think they would enjoy and be able to play it in all content, rather than choosing a job based off what will help them get into things like Delve and Arc Angel fights. The game's job class diversity is a little bit pathetic and this is what makes the game boring when all you ever see in group content is Bard, Corsair, and Monk.
Back before Treasures of Aht Urghan, WoTG, Abyssea, and Adoulin, the game was much more balanced and most jobs had at least some use or "advantage" in certain situations... Now some jobs are just rendered completely obsolete in comparison to others. -
02-14-2014, 08:15 AMRwolf
They actually were added solely with the intent of providing new support job options at first. This was confirmed back when Tanaka was on board during Wings of the Goddess and the first threads of DNC and SCH not being wanted endgame started popping up. They admitted they didn't plan out what DNC and SCH would do as main jobs at first because the main point was adding a way for melee jobs to heal themselves and mages a way to use magic more effectively when skills grades mattered without all this magic accuracy now. That's part of the reason why both, still to this day are really potent support job choices.
Link to full interviewQuote:
Ten Ton Hammer: On the surface, both of these new jobs seem focused around high level magicks. Is this true? Were the other "Extra Jobs" lacking in classes that heeded this particular style of play?
Gondai: The new jobs were not designed solely with high level play in mind. In fact, we focused on the low level aspects of the dancer to cement its position as a viable support job. In the case of the scholar however, the abilities and flexibility of the job become far more apparent at the higher levels of the game.
They were specifically balanced and catered initially to be support job candidates. Of course that didn't mean they were what the OP is considering but enough to make a comparison. Now they are much more fleshed out in their roles. Scholar more than Dancer, especially when Scholar got a huge update all at once. Dancer to finally receive one of their own.
I agree though, by adding jobs that are just support jobs. Players will just complain until they are added as full jobs. It's too big of a carrot to dangle. I'd like to see them actually balance the 22 jobs we have now to be used as support jobs before expanding to supplemental ones. -
02-14-2014, 09:11 AMCamiieWell if that's not half-assing things, then I dunno what is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwolf
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02-16-2014, 05:22 AMShinron-PUP^ I'd like to see something like this implemented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinzha
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02-16-2014, 07:21 AMbungiefanNA
But how would you level a job that can't be set as main?
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02-16-2014, 08:42 AMJinzhaI tried my best to explain it in my first post on this thread, but I'm glad you brought it up anyway because it probably wasn't very clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by bungiefanNA
When these support jobs are unlocked, which could be by doing some mini quest or simply buying the support job from an NPC, they will automatically be half the level of your jobs level. Therefore there won't be any need to level the job. It's similar to how trust npcs work. You unlock the trust NPC through some mini-quest, and they're the level that you are without any need to level them.
I think doing it this way is best so that the game developers wouldn't need to spend many man hours on creating job specific gear, job quests, and job abilities that would help the job survive on its own. The job would solely be a support job that enhances the functionality of certain main classes.
This way, players can have more access to specific job traits and job abilities that focus on enhancing certain fighting styles that can be gained by support job only classes. -
02-17-2014, 03:59 AMSabishii
People would just want these jobs as full jobs. I think this game has enough balance issues with main jobs before adding new ones that are sub only. Balance PUP, BLU, SMN, BLM, RUN, THF, other melee that isn't MNK, jobs that people don't want in end game content. I like BLU and SAM, those are the two jobs I have geared the most, but in Ark Angels, people don't want those jobs, they want a group composition of PLD, RNG x2, COR, WHM, BRD or something similar like that. BLM can't get an invite because AA resist magic so much (like most mobs), and most melee can't get invites because you have to sub /NIN to even have a chance of not getting killed, OR you just have a RNG who can stay out of guaranteed death AoE range. We don't need more jobs when the ones we have now are so imbalanced. I'd say we'd actually have TOO many jobs to keep balanced by the dev team, since most of them are not being used in end game stuff.
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02-17-2014, 09:02 AMTwille
No thanks.
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02-17-2014, 11:20 AMShinron-PUPI agree with what you're saying. We definitely need more focus on fixing jobs that already exist because they're definitely a bit unbalanced. However, I think the original poster's idea behind creating support job only classes was to in fact create more balance to jobs by giving them access to job abilities and traits that better augmented their jobs specific fighting style.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabishii
Honestly I would love to get a pet job support job that enabled more ways for me to cure and enhance my pet. Honestly as a mythic PUP99, I don't benefit much from /WAR and /NIN especially in cases where I'm not fighting up close and that's about all of our options for a support job. I would love some pet job support jobs or just allow us to /DRG /BST or /SMN and get pet job ability benefits. Even a support job that worked similar to /NIN but gave more PDT and Defense so that squishy jobs like PUP could survive better in heavy damage situations would be amazing. /PLD obviously wouldn't be able to do that very efficiently. -
02-17-2014, 11:37 AMJinzhaThere are multiple ways to skin a rabbit. I do believe jobs needs to be balanced better, but I also believe that directly balancing jobs isn't the only way to fix them. I think adding sub only jobs is one of many ways that Square Enix needs to balance the current job disparities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabishii
Adding these support jobs would be so simple. And you could literally add support jobs so specific that they could literally be made just to benefit one job. For example if they added Shinobi which is just a pseudo ninja support job, it could add benefits like conserve ninja tools used, grant fast cast, evasion bonus, increased attack speed, and grant access to new Ninjutsu like Utsusemi: San when main class is Ninja.
Also I think these support jobs wouldn't necessarily be jobs that people would want to be lv 99. The support jobs won't really be something that differs much from the original jobs, but simply just grant job abilities and job traits that specialize in certain fighting styles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabishii
For example, who is going to want /Herder to be a lv. 99 job when it just gives more pet benefits.
If they were to add complete unique support jobs like Necromancer that clearly could be extrapolated into a 99 version, I could see that, however. But the support jobs that I'm speaking of are more general and just pseudo versions of preexisting jobs. -
02-17-2014, 11:42 AMJinzhaI love the input, but can you explain/extrapolate why you feel this way. My support job idea isn't set in stone and I'm not saying "I want it this way or no way". The point of making forum posts is to gain feed back and critiques from others players in order to generate even more ideas so that Square Enix can use those ideas to help make the game better and more how the players want it. If you feel my idea is bad say why and how you think it could be done better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Twille
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02-17-2014, 02:25 PMBlah
All right, before yay or nay is said a bit more clarification please. Are you saying dump the main job/ support job setup now and just make these 22 support job only jobs or are you saying have it like ninja/war/shinobi? And are you saying that like the Viking support job is only going to work with "tanks" or will I be able to go, say summoner/Viking to try to be a, well a summoner that can tank?
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02-17-2014, 11:18 PMJinzhaQuote:
Originally Posted by Blah
The support job system would stay the same as it has been. You would still be able to /SAM or /NIN or /WAR if you wanted to. They would just be adding additional support jobs as more options. The system would still be Main/Support, so it would just be Ninja/Shinobi (or some new support job) instead of Ninja/Warrior.
This is actually a big point. The support jobs would be accessible to all jobs classes, like any other. If you wanted to go Summoner/Viking then you could. The point is to give all classes access to support jobs that focus on certain fighting styles so that, say you wanted to go Summoner/Viking, you could actually survive more efficiently in high damage situations and also gain hate more efficiently because you would have access to things like flash and provoke (I'm not saying that SMN would be a better tank than a Paladin, but could hold decently if it chose to). Same thing with damage dealer jobs. If a Samurai wanted to go Samurai/Viking, s/he would find themselves a formidable tank job comparable to Paladin (and soon RUN) but not necessarily better. This would allow for others jobs to tank in certain situations rather than simply Paladin being the only path for a tank job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah
Currently there is an extreme bias between what jobs can use what types of support jobs. Mage jobs rarely get to use Melee support jobs because they are not beneficial and vice versa, but what I'm asking for are support jobs that function for all jobs. A mage can benefit from a tank support job or a melee support job as much as they would a mage support job.If you want to be an up close fighting summoner, you'd have a better chance by supporting Berserker or Viking and actually seeing a large difference and your ability to damage deal or survive. It would open up windows to different fighting styles that a job can use.
However, if you sub one of the 22+ support job exclusive jobs that may correspond to one of the main classes you would have access to even stronger job abilities, spells, job traits but only when you're on that main class. For Example:
*Ninja and it's corresponding support job Shinobi may grant access to higher spells like Utsusemi: San, More evasion traits +, and some new job abilities.
* Red Mage and it's corresponding support job Time Mage may grant access to Hasteja, Slowja, Haste II, Bio IV, Paralyze III, etc. Only when main job is Red Mage.
* Puppetmaster and it's corresponding support job Mechanist may be able to use Activate II (Having 2 automatons), Repair II, Cool Down II, etc.
*White Mage and it's corresponding support job Medic may have access to spells like Cure VII, Increased cure potency, more insta-cast.
Using a support job that corresponds to your actual job would have a synergistic effect granting access to spells, job traits, and job abilities that other jobs wouldn't get by using that support job. However, any job would still have access to using those support jobs but wouldn't gain spells like Utsusemi: San from subbing /Shinobi like Ninja would. It would allow us to almost support our own class making us even stronger in our respective techniques. Don't get me wrong however, I don't think the synergistic effect of the support jobs should be completely over powering, there would still be benefits to supporting other support jobs besides your "Job specific-Support job".
Don't get caught too much on the fact that creating 22+ Support jobs would take many man hours. As I stated before, the jobs once unlocked would be automatically half the level of the Main class and could be gotten through something as simple as buying it from a NPC or getting it through login in campaigns. Creating the classes would be so simple to do, and if done right would create fun options and balance those large gaps in jobs where you can only see Monk, Bard, Corsair, and some other selective few jobs in end game content. It would be possible to see summoners fighting up close, Samurais, Warriors, or Ninjas tanking almost as effectively as Paladin, or Dark Knight's focusing on using nukes primarily as a effective source of damage. All avenues of a job could thus be explored, and, as a result, create more diversity in what type of jobs can be used in group content as well as solo content. -
02-17-2014, 11:51 PMBlah
Well I am not sure I am on board (largely because I still mix and match jobs or try to) and here's why...I would rather be a ninja/warrior/ shinobi. :-) Ok ok other than that I don't know if you saw it but earlier this week there was another thread about transcendent jobs, your idea and their idea sounds very similar, not saying they're the same but one might argue instead of support job only jobs how about simply "transcending" the current jobs? Like "transcending" ninja to shinobi and giving it the abilities you've outlined, "transcending" paladin to Viking and giving it the abilities you've outlined, "transcending" summoner to...ummm whatever an ascended summoner would be called. The downside to both ideas is I believe they wanted to ditch the current setup as well and I would rather just have it be an optional feature that if you try it and don't like it or want to actually have the option of sometimes having main/support or main/ minisupport (I'm calling it minisupport) or transcended job or transcended job/ support if they go with the other idea, you can. Now not to get too off-topic but I kinda always thought (pre99) that it was stupid and quite silly that we never had the option of not having a support job. Some actually did want to challenge themselves (one linkshell buddy a looooooong time ago) but people just kept jumping all over her about it so she quit and I thought it was a real shame. If they do go with either idea I really do hope they also have the option of just going with "one" job too.
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02-18-2014, 12:08 AMJinzhaYes my idea is actually pretty similar to the "transcendent jobs" concept. And I actually wouldn't mind seeing something along those lines. I think that keeping the current Main/Support job system the same would be a little bit more practical, however, and just create the "Transcendent" effect through synergistic jobs like Ninja/Shinobi, so that we wouldn't have to completely discard the system that we have currently been using forever, but I wouldn't mind "Transcendent Jobs" also.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah
I'm not really a big fan, however, of Mini support jobs only because they won't really create the "Big effect" that I want. Sure you'll get like provoke and some other fun stuff if you went NIN/DNC/WAR, but a mini support job isn't going to balance the huge disparities between jobs. I want to see support jobs that help Melees tank similarly to Paladin, or mages that can be formidable damage dealers (up close fighting). I want more variety and options than MNK, COR, BRD, PLD, WHM, and SCH. I'm not saying mini support jobs is a bad idea, though. I think there are a lot of things you could do with the idea, honestly.
My main point, in a nut shell, is to create support jobs that anybody can use that allows players to fight however they want to on their respective job. No more Paladin is only Tank job, No more White Mage is only healer. Players should be able to log on and play whatever their favorite job is and play it how they want to. Certain jobs may have a slight advantage over others in certain fighting styles, but that large gap in difference would be minimized with the new support jobs. -
02-18-2014, 12:27 AMBlah
Ah no no, I was calling your idea "minisupport"...to kinda shorten things up a bit...instead of "support job only jobs" Oooo but maybe a better name might be static job? Something like that?
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02-18-2014, 12:27 AMShinron-PUP^ I live by this statement. I remember in the Lv. 75 Era when Red Mages like Avesta used to wax monsters, when Samurai's used to gear specifically to tank, when we had Damage dealer White Mages in Divine Hauberks, and even Pet Linkshells taking down ridiculous foes like Kirin. What happened to this? What happened to our diversity? I can't even log in FFXI and play the job I want anymore. I must be a certain job or I cannot join because I'm useless. If I got anything from this thread, I think it's the fact that the game's diversity is just dying. We aren't seeing players who dare to take a job class to the next level, and do something with it that we never thought was possible. Final fantasy is starting to feel a lot like Final Reality where there is subliminal job "Racism" going on and social classes where only the elite of jobs and players get to enjoy the game. I love Puppetmaster, and I absolutely refuse to compromise and play as another job just so I can participate in group content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinzha
Balance the jobs, bring back the games diversity, because this is what is killing FFXI. -
02-18-2014, 03:01 AMCamiieI won't speak to any specific methods of achieving the result, but I'd LOVE to have jobs be more versatile. I'd love it if WAR could be as effective a tank as a PLD or a PLD could essentially become a holy version of DRK. I just don't know how much support you'd get from the min/max number crunchers and old timers who are set in their ways and firmly attached to their roles. And the devs of course would complain about the potential work involved. You at least have my support in your ultimate goal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinzha