Adjust methods for obtaining Kings gear

This has been asked for for years: More ways to obtain items from "ground kings" (Fafnir/Nidhogg, Behemoth/King Behemoth, Adamantoise/Aspidochelone). First it was heavy competition, and then heavy competition + botting. The third party claiming tools were still reasonably easy to beat with normal claiming methods. Then, more advanced third party tools were introduced and pretty much killed legit king camping.

SE's response to this has been wide and sweeping over the years, but never actually addressed the issue (both in terms of making the content more available or curbing the third party tools used to claim those mobs). They added Limbus, ZNMs, Nyzul Isle Assault, Salvage, Einherjar, SCNMs, VNMs, and finally Abyssea.

With the ability to upgrade older gear via Synergy approaching, there should be alternate ways to obtain the drops from kings. The current alternate methods don't work. For instance: 2-3 Earthen Abj: Body dropping in Einherjar per real calender year if you participate twice a week, every week for 52 weeks is not a reasonable drop rate.

And I mean all the items available from kings. Equipment, abjurations, Black Belt quest items. While BB items are somewhat easier to obtain provided you have hundreds of Kindred Seals, it's still a terrible drop rate.

So I would like to see an adjustment to the spawn/respawn conditions of kings from days to a matter of a couple hours. Or introduce force spawned mobs that drop those items. Or make them drops from existing battlefields and increase their drop rates in Einherjar.

Perhaps it's somehow not common knowledge to Square that the only way to obtain items from kings is to "purchase" them from linkshells that exist exclusively for the purpose of claiming NMs with third party tools ("botshells") for several million gil apiece.

I'd really like to see king camping come back. The only way this can or will happen is if it was made so that botshells would have difficulty monopolizing the mobs. The respawn timers need to be reduced to 1-2 hours, and the lottery for "HQ" mobs needs to be randomized, but adjusted to at least twice a day, instead of once every 3-5 days. Or making kings forced popped by farming specific items/key items.

Linkshells do not like camping NMs for several hours with the chance of not getting claim (well, more like "with zero chance of getting claim" as the situation dictates these days). This is not the same as spending 3 hours farming pops for an SCNM or Abyssea NM, or for a VNM Abyssite color change. At least players have a guaranteed opportunity to fight the mob in question, regardless of what drops it may give.

So, I've seen this topic discussed more than six dozen times in threads ranging from 2004 to 2009~ (give or take) when most normal endgame shells finally just gave up camping those mobs altogether.

Instead of interpreting that as a lack of interest in the content, it should've provoked a need to investigate the situation and provide reasonable measures to make that content available to everyone.

Oh and please don't turn this into a trollfest. Everyone knows the situation; I've summed it up pretty well. No need to write a thesis on the ethics of botting and turn this into a BG thread. It's aimed at devs and those that have valid opinions on the subject matter, thanks! ;)

Oh and if it's been covered in update notes buried somewhere in the land of Twitter and then linked to in 2 other places, which is enough to bring the "it's been posted in 15 quadrillion places!!" trolls out, cool. Link that content here instead of posting a cool story.

I like your post, and I agree with its message.

For the last part, I believe they said they dramatically increased the Einherjar drops, but I don't know of anyone that does Einherjar anymore. Other than that, I don't know if increasing the pop conditions would help immediately, but they most definitely will in the long run.

I'd bet a dozen donuts this is already in the works, considering the new system to augment is so chance based, and most(if not all) the king gear is either obsolete, hitting the floor, or both.

The only issue, and really the only reason botshells even camp that nowadays is to sell the BB items from what I seen. Idk how drastically reducing the spawn time is going to affect that. SE seems to be leaning towards keeping Blackbelt kind of an exclusive item. And on that, they may just fudge the whole reduced timer thing for that reason.

What they could do, is make a version of the land kings (RE: Alliance) in Moblin Maze Mongers that you can force pop that lack the BB items, but maybe drop additional crafting items for synergy, Abjurations, and/or gear. But that's kinda what Einherjar was supposed to be, so I don't know.

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Originally Posted by Frost

SE seems to be leaning towards keeping Blackbelt kind of an exclusive item.

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Well, it wouldn't make sense (to me at least) to increase the availability of some items and not others. The entire idea and spirit behind this thread was increasing the availability of content to all players.

SE has been moving in this direction for a long time and making fantastic adjustments in that regard. Making sky god pop farming less prone to botting, level sync, removing level caps for mission battlefields, the addition of Trial of the Magians quests, Fields of Valor, Abyssea's awesome equipment drops and experience points system, the list goes on and on. It wouldn't benefit anyone to say "We'll give everyone an Ebody but you still no can haz a belt!"

If anything, with the amount of struggle and frustration I have personally seen MNK friends go through with their belts, I would like this prioritized first, and then the abjurations and equipment drops.

Oh, and toss out some more Defending Rings. It's not really a broken item any more, and it will definitely help those poor MNKs (and SAM, WAR, NIN, DRK, BLU and every other job that has replaced PLD in tanking) do a better job tanking.

(Btw, has anyone successfully tested WHM vs PLD for recently? Is WHM really better now?) I remember seeing someone say WHM is miles above PLD now. Not just for tanking but for damage output and survivability.

Agree with the title but I think some shells would probably monopolise (sp) the spawns if there was just a couple hours respawns, just like with Guk there the JP usually are the ones claiming him, on my server anyway.

@ Chocobits: I only made that point because SE EXPLICITLY said they were not going to make Blackbelts easier to attain, and continued to say getting level 90 was enough of an improvement in acquiring said item. I agree, because the KS99's really are easier now, sans the Turtle.

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Originally Posted by Cerelyn

Agree with the title but I think some shells would probably monopolise (sp) the spawns if there was just a couple hours respawns, just like with Guk there the JP usually are the ones claiming him, on my server anyway.

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People said that about Alky bracelets. And Sure, they tried, but when the market's flooded, it's flooded. Profitability being the only driving force, and when that goes, so do the guys trying to control the market.

Guk is camped right now for obvious reasons. It's the bottle neck for a couple Empyrean weapons. Once those interested in Empyreans ger theirs, so too will Guk roam free.

King gear is outdated, and the way SE likes to update things, it will remain that way. Go get AF3 and the other gear that trumps king gear and get over it. (except d ring, SE should add a new way to acquire d ring, that would be hot)

There is zero legitimacy in ground Kings.

There is zero to very little legitimacy in HNM's at all.

Until that is forcibly changed (probably eliminating what few elite players didn't get nailed from the Salvage bans), one has to agree new ways must be found.

Hnm is of the past. Its been bitched about before from 2004-2009 why would the change it now? The days of spending countless hours camping 21-24 nm or tiamat cerb khim is over. It does not comply with todays standards of the casual player.
I will never waste my time fighting for pixels as we did 2004+.

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Originally Posted by ruch

Hnm is of the past. Its been bitched about before from 2004-2009 why would the change it now? The days of spending countless hours camping 21-24 nm or tiamat cerb khim is over. It does not comply with todays standards of the casual player.
I will never waste my time fighting for pixels as we did 2004+.

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Then go play WoW. Some of us want to revive old content and aren't content to mindlessly plow through traverser stones.

It begs the question: If you were around before Abyssea, what was the original draw to FFXI that got you hooked? For me, it WAS the competition for claiming, the friends teaming up to fight the boss atmosphere, and the great mission storylines.

Also, did you even read the original post? I want the respawn timers lowered to less than a couple hours, or changed to force pops.

I would definitely like to see a revival of "friendly competition", where all the players are on a level playing field competing against each other for claims, and there weren't game balance destroying bot tools. Really wish SE had invested more time in anti-bot research 5 1/2 years ago when it first started to really become an issue.

All of your arguments were valid... before Abyssea. I can walk up to any king right now and claim it if I was so inclined to do so with very minimum competition. So exactly why would SE bother touching it? These monsters are the kings of beastmen. And you want 1-2 hour pops...with HQs being at least twice a day? Whaaaaat???? For someone that's so quick to yell at another person to go play WoW, you sure are asking for the WoW treatment here.

My opinion is to increase pop timers to make them less predictable and less attractive for botters to try to profit off of, assuming they're ever worth camping again. This method keeps them at a "prestige" level instead of the "joke" level you're suggesting with 1 hour spawns. Killing these things used to mean something. They'll just be another everyday monster if you can walk up in their town and kill them whenever you please.

Throw some new drops on them, increase their spawn windows(I could see a 12-24 hour respawn working out great but hey, I could live with force pops too, Sky gods are force pop what the hell does it matter if ground kings are? throw in some NMs to kill for pop items for competition sake) perhaps spread out their pop radius if they even have the room for it, and we'll see a comeback of serious business king camping. But what you're suggesting is silver platter business. No one likes camping these things and losing claim. But that is what makes the gear special to begin with... because it takes time to obtain the gear. Half the fun in RPGs is getting those pieces of gear that are hard to get. No one ever died of excitement for obtaining a bronze harness. As good as the Abyssea gear was when Visions came out, no one ever really felt special in their new uber gear because the stuff is easily obtainable. Everyone had it. Many still use it.

Am I just talking to myself here or am I really not the only one who plays this game because it feels damn good to obtain a rare item from a boss fight that puts me ahead of the average Joe? Kings reward determination, and things should remain that way. And it is because of that fact that you even care in the slightest to kill them. If they weren't difficult to kill in comparison to a lizard outside Bastok with rewards to back up the difficulty you wouldn't ever care.

I understand the logic behind your request. I'm not against that logic, just how you want to go about it. And you know what? I'm not 100% against 1 hour respawns. I could be happy with 1 hour respawns... as long as the King got a significant boost in strength and forced you to bring more than a duo or trio to kill it. To me a really strong boss or a really rare boss serve the same purpose - beating them means something, whether by a difficult battle or difficult claim.

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I understand the logic behind your request. I'm not against that logic, just how you want to go about it. And you know what? I'm not 100% against 1 hour respawns. I could be happy with 1 hour respawns... as long as the King got a significant boost in strength and forced you to bring more than a duo or trio to kill it. To me a really strong boss or a really rare boss serve the same purpose - beating them means something, whether by a difficult battle or difficult claim.

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I think this is a very elegant solution. One of the recommendations I was making several years ago was increasing the difficulty of ground kings, and it was met with mild enthusiasm.

I would love to see content outside of Abyssea scaled up in difficulty to account for higher level cap.

If we were doing this, I'd like to see new items available from the Cop wyrms and the Ouryu and Bahamut BCNMs, as well as an increase in levels/stats/abilities for those mobs.

And you're absolutely right about the rewarding feeling of obtaining a rare item.

I think making content more available, but more challenging would be a positive trend and breathe new life outside of Abyssea.

Can we have some legacy kept in the game please? Leave kings as they are.

3 ebodys a year from einherjar? are you serious? my ls has tossed numerous ebodys cause of 2 dropping alot. i would say i have seen atleast 15+ a year doing 2 runs a week and this was before abyssea was released. take in 3-4 mules as feather holders for all 9 and cycle them out for odin access. as for king camping pretty much all the king gear is replaced and the stats from synergy synth i doubt will make them top gear again.

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

It begs the question: If you were around before Abyssea, what was the original draw to FFXI that got you hooked? For me, it WAS the competition for claiming, the friends teaming up to fight the boss atmosphere, and the great mission storylines.

Also, did you even read the original post? I want the respawn timers lowered to less than a couple hours, or changed to force pops.

I would definitely like to see a revival of "friendly competition", where all the players are on a level playing field competing against each other for claims, and there weren't game balance destroying bot tools. Really wish SE had invested more time in anti-bot research 5 1/2 years ago when it first started to really become an issue.

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The same reason man. I loved claiming any killing, I totally agree. I was implying it has been discussed in the past and never touched. Id love to see force spawn fafhogg aspid and kb. However it wasn't patched years ago why change it now?

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Originally Posted by Dazusu

Can we have some legacy kept in the game please? Leave kings as they are.

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Your mule has afk claimed using third party tool.

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Originally Posted by Frost

The only issue, and really the only reason botshells even camp that nowadays is to sell the BB items from what I seen. Idk how drastically reducing the spawn time is going to affect that. SE seems to be leaning towards keeping Blackbelt kind of an exclusive item. And on that, they may just fudge the whole reduced timer thing for.

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Black belts are rare? Everyone I know who has played MNK for a year or two has one.

They might be difficult to get for someone who bandwagons MNK to 90 in a week but for someone who actually plays the job regularly they're not that hard.

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Originally Posted by ruch

Your mule has afk claimed using third party tool.

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You just ooze eloquency. I see you're also the authority to judge who's using third-party tools, and who isn't.

If they boost king respawns they destroy einherjar more than they already have. The better way to let people get the outdated gear easier is to fix Ein, adding some BB items too and leave kings as the outdated horror they always have been.

I spent years in the HNM scene and although it was fun and exciting at the start once I realised the amount of botting that went on and how many shells turned into RMT it just got silly. Ultimately they were probably the worst content Square ever added, I hope they never add anything like it again. The current "cheating is ok, i do it so i can have fun doing the stuff I want to do!" attitude was fostered widely in endgamers due to the stupid kings system forcing them to bot, if they changed it now after people trying to put up with it for so long it would be a slap in the face.

They never fixed them when they were important so just leave them as a relic of stupid game design never to be repeated now.

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Originally Posted by Dazusu

You just ooze eloquency. I see you're also the authority to judge who's using third-party tools, and who isn't.

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Here's a hint:

The next person most people see actually doing Kings without someone in the shell using third-party tools will be the FIRST person most people see actually doing Kings without illegal tools at all!

In most, if not all cases:

Kings = illegal tools. Such is one of the dirty secrets of FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Chocobits

This has been asked for for years: More ways to obtain items from "ground kings" (Fafnir/Nidhogg, Behemoth/King Behemoth, Adamantoise/Aspidochelone). First it was heavy competition, and then heavy competition + botting. The third party claiming tools were still reasonably easy to beat with normal claiming methods. Then, more advanced third party tools were introduced and pretty much killed legit king camping.

SE's response to this has been wide and sweeping over the years, but never actually addressed the issue (both in terms of making the content more available or curbing the third party tools used to claim those mobs). They added Limbus, ZNMs, Nyzul Isle Assault, Salvage, Einherjar, SCNMs, VNMs, and finally Abyssea.

With the ability to upgrade older gear via Synergy approaching, there should be alternate ways to obtain the drops from kings. The current alternate methods don't work. For instance: 2-3 Earthen Abj: Body dropping in Einherjar per real calender year if you participate twice a week, every week for 52 weeks is not a reasonable drop rate.

And I mean all the items available from kings. Equipment, abjurations, Black Belt quest items. While BB items are somewhat easier to obtain provided you have hundreds of Kindred Seals, it's still a terrible drop rate.

So I would like to see an adjustment to the spawn/respawn conditions of kings from days to a matter of a couple hours. Or introduce force spawned mobs that drop those items. Or make them drops from existing battlefields and increase their drop rates in Einherjar.

Perhaps it's somehow not common knowledge to Square that the only way to obtain items from kings is to "purchase" them from linkshells that exist exclusively for the purpose of claiming NMs with third party tools ("botshells") for several million gil apiece.

I'd really like to see king camping come back. The only way this can or will happen is if it was made so that botshells would have difficulty monopolizing the mobs. The respawn timers need to be reduced to 1-2 hours, and the lottery for "HQ" mobs needs to be randomized, but adjusted to at least twice a day, instead of once every 3-5 days. Or making kings forced popped by farming specific items/key items.

Linkshells do not like camping NMs for several hours with the chance of not getting claim (well, more like "with zero chance of getting claim" as the situation dictates these days). This is not the same as spending 3 hours farming pops for an SCNM or Abyssea NM, or for a VNM Abyssite color change. At least players have a guaranteed opportunity to fight the mob in question, regardless of what drops it may give.

So, I've seen this topic discussed more than six dozen times in threads ranging from 2004 to 2009~ (give or take) when most normal endgame shells finally just gave up camping those mobs altogether.

Instead of interpreting that as a lack of interest in the content, it should've provoked a need to investigate the situation and provide reasonable measures to make that content available to everyone.

Oh and please don't turn this into a trollfest. Everyone knows the situation; I've summed it up pretty well. No need to write a thesis on the ethics of botting and turn this into a BG thread. It's aimed at devs and those that have valid opinions on the subject matter, thanks! ;)

Oh and if it's been covered in update notes buried somewhere in the land of Twitter and then linked to in 2 other places, which is enough to bring the "it's been posted in 15 quadrillion places!!" trolls out, cool. Link that content here instead of posting a cool story.

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I fully endorse this message. Botting has been a problem in abbyssea as well but not on the scale as it with Kings. My group was camping the frog NM in Abby Misaraeux when an LS, notorious known for using botting, taunted us by saying things like "you really wanna go up against us?" and then use their bots to claim the nm. And as we walk away, to further taunt us, they call for help on the mob and start saying "Please help us kill...blah blah blah" Very annoying.

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Originally Posted by Vold

All of your arguments were valid... before Abyssea. I can walk up to any king right now and claim it if I was so inclined to do so with very minimum competition. So exactly why would SE bother touching it? These monsters are the kings of beastmen. And you want 1-2 hour pops...with HQs being at least twice a day? Whaaaaat???? For someone that's so quick to yell at another person to go play WoW, you sure are asking for the WoW treatment here.

My opinion is to increase pop timers to make them less predictable and less attractive for botters to try to profit off of, assuming they're ever worth camping again. This method keeps them at a "prestige" level instead of the "joke" level you're suggesting with 1 hour spawns. Killing these things used to mean something. They'll just be another everyday monster if you can walk up in their town and kill them whenever you please.

Throw some new drops on them, increase their spawn windows(I could see a 12-24 hour respawn working out great but hey, I could live with force pops too, Sky gods are force pop what the hell does it matter if ground kings are? throw in some NMs to kill for pop items for competition sake) perhaps spread out their pop radius if they even have the room for it, and we'll see a comeback of serious business king camping. But what you're suggesting is silver platter business. No one likes camping these things and losing claim. But that is what makes the gear special to begin with... because it takes time to obtain the gear. Half the fun in RPGs is getting those pieces of gear that are hard to get. No one ever died of excitement for obtaining a bronze harness. As good as the Abyssea gear was when Visions came out, no one ever really felt special in their new uber gear because the stuff is easily obtainable. Everyone had it. Many still use it.

Am I just talking to myself here or am I really not the only one who plays this game because it feels damn good to obtain a rare item from a boss fight that puts me ahead of the average Joe? Kings reward determination, and things should remain that way. And it is because of that fact that you even care in the slightest to kill them. If they weren't difficult to kill in comparison to a lizard outside Bastok with rewards to back up the difficulty you wouldn't ever care.

I understand the logic behind your request. I'm not against that logic, just how you want to go about it. And you know what? I'm not 100% against 1 hour respawns. I could be happy with 1 hour respawns... as long as the King got a significant boost in strength and forced you to bring more than a duo or trio to kill it. To me a really strong boss or a really rare boss serve the same purpose - beating them means something, whether by a difficult battle or difficult claim.

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I think a compromise could be to make it a force pop but allow everyone in the alliance to participate in the fight to not be able to pop for another 3 days or so. Sure people could get around this by having a person sit out, but if the NM difficulty was ramped up then they'd need more to participate and while that person could pop, the others who fought would still be unable to engage the mob for 3 days. Just a thought.