Lackluser iLvl for Carnwenhan

Carnwenhan's ilvl 119 was lackluster(this argument could also apply to whm mythic) for support bards, analysis below:

Carnwenhan
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Original 99
DMG:48
Delay:186
Magic Accuracy+25
Increases song effect duration V
"Mordant Rime" Aftermath: Increases Acc./Magic Acc. Occ. attacks twice or thrice

119
DMG:92
Delay:186
Magic Accuracy+25
Dagger skill +242 Parrying skill +242
Magic Accuracy skill +228
Increases song effect duration V
"Mordant Rime" Aftermath: Increases Magic Acc./Acc. Occasionally attacks twice or thrice

Difference
DMG: 44 Increase
Delay: No change
Magic Accuracy: No change
Dagger skill, parry skill, magic acc skill: New
Increse song effect duration V: No change
Mordand Rime aftermath: no change


Based on these changes the only real thing that affects is the Magic Accuracy skill for our offensive songs. Though it could be said that the magic accuracy isn't really an upgrade just for Carnwenhan, as magic accuracy was applied to every single REM. Bards can utilize magic accuracy, but I have always viewed bard as a buffer of the party with a side of enfeebling the enemy. Hence why majority of our songs are AOE. Aside from boosting offensive songs the only other reasons for these upgrades I can see is that SE wants us brds to be DD., to sub either nin or thf and dual wield Carnwenhan and Izhiikoh or Mandau.

Nirvana comparison
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Original 99
DMG:104
Delay:402
Accuracy+30
Avatar perpetuation cost -8
Avatar: "Magic Atk. Bonus"+40
"Garland of Bliss" Aftermath (Incl. Avatars): Inc. Acc./Atk., Occ. attacks 2-3 times

119
DMG:200
Delay:402
Accuracy+30
Magic Damage+217
Staff skill +242 Parrying skill +242
Magic Accuracy skill +255
Avatar perpetuation cost -8
Avatar: Lv+2 Increases "Blood Pact" damage
"Garland of Bliss" Aftermath (Incl. Avatars): Increases Accuracy and Attack Occasionally attacks twice or thrice

Difference
DMG: 96 increase
Delay: No change
Accuracy: No change
Avatar perpetuation cost: No change
Avatar MAB: removed
Magic Damage: New
Staff,parry, magic acc: New
Avatar Lv+2 increses blood pact damage: New
Aftermath: No change


When you compare the changes that Summoner got for Nirvana. The changes indicate that SE wants their Avatars to do more dmg to be a dd. I've always thought that summoner should be a dd with a side of party buffing and the changes seem to reflect this.

I would have prefered SE have changed Carnwenhan to have more song duration since thats what Carnwenhan is about. Or as others have suggested being able to casts songs on other parties when in alliance without party swapping. The current duration caps are:

base + mythic99 + gjallar99 + Emp neck + Emp body + Marduk legs+1 + spec songs + BardAF feet+1
120s + 50% + 40% + 10% + 10% + 10% + 10% + 10%
120s + 60s + 48s + 12s + 12s + 12s + 12s + 12s = 288 sec

(spec songs are minuet, madrigal, scherzo, march, paeon(with new Brioso Roundlet)) (ballad is at 276s because ballad+1 is on legs so unable to use Marduk legs+1)

To get to 300s(5 min) which doubled with troubadour for 10 min songs(equalling the recast time) you would need to sub dnc or nin and use the Legato Dagger for the last 12s.

Neither sub is ideal for a bard unless they are focusing on DDing. For a support brd(which I believe brd is the ultimate support class) the ideal sub is whm.

So based on the differences between lvl 99 and ilvl 119 Carnwenhan does this indicate they have always intended bard to be a DD. The changes clearly do not point to a support job. Yes the magic accuracy will help offensive buffs, but again the magic accuraccy was added to ALL REMs so it is considered a general buff not a job specific buff.

Neither Gjallarhorn nor Daurdabla got any buffs, they already cover Quality of songs and Quantity of songs respectively. The only thing left is duration for Carnwenhan. If summoner can get boosts to stats to help them in their intended role as dd, why can't bard get boost to help them as a buffer. Yes the gear is out there to get to 10 minute songs for a bard that is Carnwenhan 99 and Gjallarhorn 99 but at the expense of a sub that does not compliment them as a support job. Aside from ilvl 119 being a better DD weapon, there is no difference between it and the 99 version that affect bard party buffs.

So I ask you SE, is it your intention that bard is a DD, NOT a support class? If so you may want to alter your description of the job on your website.

The website lists brds as:
"A bright tune to soothe a party's wounds... A brisk march to raise a party's spirits... A forbidden chant to weaken a party's foes... The bards of Vana'diel use music as their weapon."

I stress the part "The bards of Vana'diel use music as their weapon."

Or that it is your intention that to get to the mythical 10 minute songs that you must obtain Carnwenhan 99(not really an easy accomplishment), Gjallarhorn 99(realistic accomplishment), and use a non ideal support sub?

You can't really compare things to Nirvana. They went out of their way to make that one exceptional.

Carn will still be best for macc and is already the premier buffing weapon. A bit underwhelming yes, but it's still best in slot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by detlef

You can't really compare things to Nirvana. They went out of their way to make that one exceptional. an actual usable almost-full-time piece.

Carn will still be best for macc and is already the premier buffing weapon. A bit underwhelming yes, but it's still best in slot.

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Quotes to only "fix" your Nirvana remark....

And to further reinforce: You're comparing base damage of a staff... and a dagger....
>_>
staff=/=dagger

Now if you were looking at the difference in gain from Twastar and Mandau....
Then you'd have an argument.... maybe... for the brd mythic dagger being gimped.
(OR, to control all the variables, you should only compare the OTHER mythic daggers.)
Science.

And you are just WOEFULLY, painfully, blatantly wrong with your horrid comment that the Macc bonus is the same.
It's HUGE compared to what it was.
Now, it requires a whole mess of stupid overlycomplicated math to get the exact gain from the 99 version....
Of which computation ain't nobody got any time for.

But you do realize that the "fake" Macc skill = a holyshitballs ton of Macc?
...
To say that the Macc bonus is the same... pshaw.

(and to further reinforce just what it is they actually did for Nirvana: by giving it lv+2 and +BPdmg%, they translated the +40MAB of the 99 into a +X%BPdmg. If it's only 10%... then Nirvana got severely gimped and your argument is invalid. But if it's the probable 40%... or even if it was just 30%... Then all that happened was Nirvana now boosts both phys AND magic BP dmg by "40%" instead of just magic BP dmg... This helps make it really "mythic" and differentiate it from the crafted Balsam/Astralwatcher.
And considering that THOSE give +120/121MAB... Which is almost +120% magic BP dmg... and they are only 117/8... Nirvana might even verge on being broke as hell with +BPdmg% = +50%.... or even the ungodly +100%... >_> )

While yes, Carnwenhan was not upgraded for songs, it never became worthless either. Same goes with Yagrush. Your comparison was a weak one at best because you compared it to another back line job Mythic, yes, but one which was also meant for damage. Nirvana was not given more Perp Cost nor was it given any other support like stat, everything on it that was boosted is a simple and pure damage boost. The same goes for the BRD Mythic, a DMG boost, the same with Yagrush, a DMG boost, their support aspects never stopped being amazing or the best, and for that reason they still hold up just as good today as ever before, which overall means that there was no need to upgrade that part of the weapon.

Comparison to Nirvana was the only one possible because it was changed OTHER than the added damage and skills. My main point is like Yagrush, Carnwwenhan's iLvL 119 does not add anything beneficial other than higher dmg for the weapon while meleeing. Both Yagrush and Carnwenhan are mostly for the passive stats. The song duration V and the always active divine veil.

Between lvl 99 version and iLvL 119 version there is no benefit other than higher melee dmg for either Yagrush and Carnwenhan.

All other mythics will benefit from the higher dmg and skills because they are offensive weapons(gun, bow, xbow included)

The main point of mythics to me was always about the added fx, not about the damage and I was hoping SE would have buffed those stats versus the DD stats.

So aside from completion sake or DDing, I see no real point to upgrading Yagrush or Carnwenhan to iLvL 119

Well in all honesty I will say that it is at least something. Afterglows for instruments do nothing at all besides glow, literally no additional effects at all, so at least its something.

I understand what you are saying, I am just trying to point out that those weapons didn't even need the update anyways, its more icing than it is the cake.

It is an upgrade yes, but in no way worth it if you are buying the 300 items. If you farm them over time it is acceptable, but it is definitely not worth gil to just increase the damage if either weapon is used just for the passive stats.

I'm still working on 99 myself but so far even with dd gear and such Mordant Rime's dmg values vary greatly. Very inconsistent in dmg values. Once I reach 99 I may change my mind but atm I won't be buying upgrade items but collecting them from kills.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

While yes, Carnwenhan was not upgraded for songs, it never became worthless either. Same goes with Yagrush. Your comparison was a weak one at best because you compared it to another back line job Mythic, yes, but one which was also meant for damage. Nirvana was not given more Perp Cost nor was it given any other support like stat, everything on it that was boosted is a simple and pure damage boost. The same goes for the BRD Mythic, a DMG boost, the same with Yagrush, a DMG boost, their support aspects never stopped being amazing or the best, and for that reason they still hold up just as good today as ever before, which overall means that there was no need to upgrade that part of the weapon.

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A lv 75 Yagrush is just as good as a 119 Yagrush...
Though I have to point out that Nirvana was adjusted to make it more in line with what it was at the 75cap: The most godly full-time staff you can do for smn.
Ever since the Magian trials and the level cap rose to 99, Nirvana has been reduced to macro-only... and then made worthless with Balsam.
Haven't made mine yet...
But seeing as how Balsam is sitting at +120MAB and Nirvana was remade to be better than it... >_> I'm afraid of those numbers.
Nirvana was also severely overhauled because SMN is a DD job.... Not that anyone would know that outside of WKRs...

Hmm. A couple of things.

The 99 Carnwenhan is an incredible weapon. Even without being upgraded to 119 it's an incredible weapon. I don't think you'll be disappointed with the 99 unless you made it as a DD weapon.
It stacks with pretty much everything. Gjallarhorn, Daurdabla, Soul Voice, Clarion Call, Marcato, Troubadour and equipment. Bard's best weapon is 119 Carnwenhan. Bard's second best weapon is 99 Carnwenhan. Other jobs 2nd best weapons aren't their 99 relic/mythic/empyrean for the majority.

I bet RDMs wished their mythic gave Enfeebling magic duration+50%/Enhancing Magic duration+50%, and upgradable with 228 magic accuracy skill on top of it. And then we have troubadour as well to double it. Or other jobs wishing their relics, mythic and empyrean all stacked together.

Right now for debuffs I use either Carnwenhan for duration or Izhiikoh for magic accuracy skill.

Carnwenhan99
Duration+50%
Magic Accuracy+25

Izhiikoh
Magic accuracy skill +188

The upgraded 119 Carnwenhan has
Duration+50%
Magic accuracy+25
Magic accuracy skill +228

So it would save me an inventory spot and gives more magic accuracy skill and gives the duration too. Carnwenhan's 2nd best use is for long duration lullabies so the magic accuracy skill is welcome. Plus we just got lullaby+1 hands and song duration feet.

To me it's a worthwhile upgrade. Whether it is to others probably depends on how much gil they have and what other weapons they own. If I had a DD mythic/relic/empyrean I would probably upgrade that first since the 99 Carnwenhan is so good. We are probably lucky we have the luxury of choosing whether it's worth it or not. Some of the other weapons are either unusable without being upgraded, worse than their delve boss counterpart when upgraded or only slightly better despite the the increase in difficulty of obtaining.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reain

I bet RDMs wished their mythic gave Enfeebling magic duration+50%/Enhancing Magic duration+50%, and upgradable with 228 magic accuracy skill on top of it. And then we have troubadour as well to double it. Or other jobs wishing their relics, mythic and empyrean all stacked together.

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Small note, bit off topic, but yeah...

That would be wonderful, I hate the fact that our Sword and your Dagger both get only 13 more Magic Accuracy than that of the primarily front line jobs, while staves give 40 more. I think that Mythics for our specific jobs should have gotten the 255 Magic Accuracy too, not just 228, we are primarily backline jobs too, we should get the same. But yeah, Convert boost is not worth an entire Mythic, I would <3 Enhancing Magic duration boosts, 7.5 minute Hastes and such would be a great reason to get it, self buffs would last about 15 minutes which would be cool for melee too, ah, the dream.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Small note, bit off topic, but yeah...

That would be wonderful, I hate the fact that our Sword and your Dagger both get only 13 more Magic Accuracy than that of the primarily front line jobs, while staves give 40 more. I think that Mythics for our specific jobs should have gotten the 255 Magic Accuracy too, not just 228, we are primarily backline jobs too, we should get the same. But yeah, Convert boost is not worth an entire Mythic, I would <3 Enhancing Magic duration boosts, 7.5 minute Hastes and such would be a great reason to get it, self buffs would last about 15 minutes which would be cool for melee too, ah, the dream.

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I think the only reason why it didn't is due to the "shell formula" for the display of the "fake" skill.
BUUUUUT... Crobaci+1 has less "fake" skill than Bereaver.... though their "fake" Macc skill IS the same...
I don't know the programming for certain... but the Mythics for hybrid jobs really should have given the same "fake" Macc skill that the staff Mythics have... or at least almost the same.
RDM, BLU, DRK, PLD... you're all mages.
But I think it's a "problem" with iLvs on weapons... Or maybe it was a design choice...
But it's the same design choice that put +Mdmg on Nirvana if so...
So...
Yeah....