Dem RMEs....

Since the latest update notice on POL mentions mythic equipment I can only assume that come November we'll see the RME update go live. This coupled with Matsui's post of offering harder versions of fights from older content I wonder if perhaps it'll be tied into upgrading the former ultimate weapons.

Although I wonder if perhaps they'll shift Relic upgrades to any revamped WotG fights since they relatively recently revamped Dynamis content leaving any WotG fights such as Fiat Lux the only reasonable alternative. Granted this is assuming they don't just slap RME upgrading onto Adoulin content.

So what would you prefer? Adoulin content tied upgrades or would you prefer some old content given a new difficulty to enhance your weapons such as say revamped ToAU Kings or even the vanilla 3 Beastmen Kings. I suppose Empyrean Weapons could be tied to VW (but that's just gonna end in tears I think given the current server populations) or simply Legion-esque waves of the Empy weapon path NMs.

Whatever they do end up doing though I hope it's 6man hard mode fights. However since Matsui mentioned different modes of difficulty able to be selected perhaps a higher allotment of players as the difficulty rises that way those lucky enough to still roll deep with their friends can assist one another. Maybe have the lower difficulties require more repeat wins.

100% chance of non-stop bitching no matter how the upgrades are handled.

I hope SE makes them as good as delve weapons, not better, not worse.

I know R/E/M owners took a lot of effort to get them (well most just bought them with rmt gil, fishing bot gil or got it on cruise mode from their ls) but they always feel entitle of being the owners of the game and its nice that this is over.

The Delve weapons should be still the top DD options alongside the REM. Just don't trash new content in favor of old one.

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Originally Posted by Spectreman

I hope SE makes them as good as delve weapons, not better, not worse.

I know R/E/M owners took a lot of effort to get them (well most just bought them with rmt gil, fishing bot gil or got it on cruise mode from their ls) but they always feel entitle of being the owners of the game and its nice that this is over.

The Delve weapons should be still the top DD options alongside the REM. Just don't trash new content in favor of old one.

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If they're as good, it means that every dual-wielding class will have to have an upgraded RME AND Delve weapon. Ow.

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Originally Posted by Rustic

If they're as good, it means that every dual-wielding class will have to have an upgraded RME AND Delve weapon. Ow.

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If it depended on me R/M/E weapons would be still inferior to delve.

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Originally Posted by Spectreman

If it depended on me R/M/E weapons would be still inferior to delve.

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I've got no problems with an Adoulin upgrade that matches RME twohanders to the current item levels (indeed, a series of trials that pushes them up to 113 -> 119 -> etc to end-of-expansion levels), but thanks to dual wields, onehanders that matched up with anything but an Adoulin offhand would mean you'd need to have a fully updated RME AND the Adoulin gear to be up to standards.

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Originally Posted by Spectreman

I hope SE makes them as good as delve weapons, not better, not worse.

I know R/E/M owners took a lot of effort to get them (well most just bought them with rmt gil, fishing bot gil or got it on cruise mode from their ls) but they always feel entitle of being the owners of the game and its nice that this is over.

The Delve weapons should be still the top DD options alongside the REM. Just don't trash new content in favor of old one.

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There was a post from Matsui foreeeeeeeeeeveeeeeer ago...
But it basically went like this:

Delve&Mythic within 1dmg of each other based on the weapon
Relic&Empyrean roughly 2dmg of each other and about 4~5dmg below Delve and Mythics.
(the example given was with PLD swords, with Delve sword being 1dmg higher than PLD's mythic. The relic being about 5ish dmg below that. And the empy sword being about 2 less than that.)

Y'all are also forgetting about the Skirmish+1s.

Once the update hits, expect to see shouts for DREMS DD.
DREMSs is my copyright. Everyone owes me 1gil for coming up with a nice fluid name that can be said as a real word: DREMS
[/sarcasm]

Though not about the shout for DREMS. That's totes gonna happen.


EDIT: Actually the bump might have had relics and empys 10dmg below delve and mythics... it's been like a year.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Spectreman

If it depended on me R/M/E weapons would be still inferior to delve.

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I thank God it doesn't. Mythics should always be the best.
Because those are the Ultimate weapons of the jobs.
And because... especially with mythics... it's more about the JA buffs than it is about the base dmg.
Having another set of weapons (eg Delve) that is basically the same base damage as the Mythic but lacks all that sexy JA buff is wonderful... because it makes a diverse game.

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Originally Posted by Spectreman

I hope SE makes them as good as delve weapons, not better, not worse.

I know R/E/M owners took a lot of effort to get them (well most just bought them with rmt gil, fishing bot gil or got it on cruise mode from their ls) but they always feel entitle of being the owners of the game and its nice that this is over.

The Delve weapons should be still the top DD options alongside the REM. Just don't trash new content in favor of old one.

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What's the point to spend 200 hr making a weapon if 3hr weapon is on same lv lol.

Also "feel entitle of being the owners of the game" isn't exclusive to REM owner only. I was trying to help one of my LS getting Ceizak clear earlier, with some DD player "undergeared" with 30k polearm, then another player came from /shout owning Oat told me they all suck at DD and 30k plasm weapon will never beat 200k plasm weapon even if 200k plasm weapon user doesn't gear swap.

Yeah, making REM same as Delve weapons, you'd still see delve weapon DD being an ass toward ppl trying to get clear, don't pretend REM is what makes humanity bad.

REM should be 1~2% ahead of delve weapons. That's the best way to do it. There's no way you'd be told not to come DD job if you're gear is 1% behind REM. And those really obsessed with elite can get REM and burn their 200hr free time for 1% increase if they want to.

The hell with all of you REM bandwagoners, I'm looking forward to the Artifact upgrades and enhancements.

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Originally Posted by Garota

The hell with all of you REM bandwagoners, I'm looking forward to the Artifact upgrades and enhancements.

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This wouldn't make me a sad panda either, though I cringe at potentially being stuck with six zillion situational side items being stuffed into my overloaded inventory...again.

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Originally Posted by Afania

REM should be 1~2% ahead of delve weapons. That's the best way to do it. There's no way you'd be told not to come DD job if you're gear is 1% behind REM. And those really obsessed with elite can get REM and burn their 200hr free time for 1% increase if they want to.

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I just wanted to emphasize the correctness of this statement by quoting it.

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Originally Posted by Afania

What's the point to spend 200 hr making a weapon if 3hr weapon is on same lv lol.

Also "feel entitle of being the owners of the game" isn't exclusive to REM owner only. I was trying to help one of my LS getting Ceizak clear earlier, with some DD player "undergeared" with 30k polearm, then another player came from /shout owning Oat told me they all suck at DD and 30k plasm weapon will never beat 200k plasm weapon even if 200k plasm weapon user doesn't gear swap.

Yeah, making REM same as Delve weapons, you'd still see delve weapon DD being an ass toward ppl trying to get clear, don't pretend REM is what makes humanity bad.

REM should be 1~2% ahead of delve weapons. That's the best way to do it. There's no way you'd be told not to come DD job if you're gear is 1% behind REM. And those really obsessed with elite can get REM and burn their 200hr free time for 1% increase if they want to.

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People keep bringing up this whole 3 hour crap.... I've been playing since Audolin release and I still do not have a Delve boss weapon. Your garuntees are falsified I want my gil back plox

The 3 hour thing is true if you play along side competent people. In 3 runs you can beat all the bosses and have enough points to purchase which ever ultimate weapon from delve you want. So yes it makes it kinda, lol. The true effort comes more in having such a group. After all this is a MMO not a I solo'd a bunch of lv 90 empy weapons with my multibox. Lv. 99 Relic are hard to make, and 99 empy a bit harder in current market, mythics still take the cake. After working so hard nothing wrong with your cake having 1-2% more DPS.

There's this one guy in my linkshell who was gimp for a long time, but he came back at the right time and was willing to level and gear GEO for us and lo and behold, he's got every Delve piece he could ever want. Being flexible and putting the group's needs ahead of your own can get you a long way in this game.

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Originally Posted by detlef

There's this one guy in my linkshell who was gimp for a long time, but he came back at the right time and was willing to level and gear GEO for us and lo and behold, he's got every Delve piece he could ever want. Being flexible and putting the group's needs ahead of your own can get you a long way in this game.

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It's why I also stuck it out and had to bite the bullet. Ended up falling in love with Monk and now I can't get enough of it. Though I would always want the Mythic knuckles, I'm still content with my Oats.

Someday...a mythic shall be mine...

i'm more curious to what adjustments are being made to the ARME equipment, not just the weapons, wonder if all of them will be like RUN and GEO at lvls that reflect their use, like artifact lvl 99, relic lvl 106, empy 113 or something like that. gots me curious

To agree, yes RME's -deserve- the upgrade, here's why.

Excalibur, reputation as one of the most famous swords in FF's entire history and Arthurian legend. Took forever to build my friend his, and not only that, but it has -so- -many- trials. All of that hard work was put into it only to get -trounced- by Buramenk'ah.

But I think still that to prevent "R/M/E ONLY!" put RME's on par with the delve boss weapon, otherwise elitest players will exclude the playerbase -again- for not having a relic made.

Just because we haven't had the time to build one, does -not- mean a player should be excluded from content, and making the RME's -too- powerful will bring back this mindset.

Upgrade them, but don't make them -super- powerful, gotta give the casual playerbase a chance at content too after all.

The only issue is that if you put them on par with Delve Boss weapons you come across the issue the game current has as it is, right now many shouts are for Delve Boss weapon DDs only, this will continue, with the exception of allowing RME120s to join as well, people who will likely have boss weapons anyways. I am not saying your wrong, your right, it is good to do it in a way that does not promote or allow more exclusions based on weapons, but that exact thing wouldn't solve much. An issue with SoA as a whole is the large gap between levels and weapons, which are not being made any smaller as it is. I know a few people with decently augmented Skirmish+1 weps which are excluded from Delve Boss runs, which are the only better weapons there are unless you want to count in high rank Delve weapons too, which are much harder to obtain without actually doing Boss runs as it is.

Coin weapons, SE's term, will allow you to unlock the WS, the only important part of the weapon outside of sentiment, so you should be mostly ok after the update, you just need better H2H & your good to go.

sort-of-completely-off-topic-but-not-really: they said that new items will be used to gain access to these battlefields. here's hoping that means an ACTUAL level 100 update is in the future.

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Originally Posted by Stompa

Nah, I like my Dumuzis. They look cool and outside of SoA they spank mobs just fine, and I've grown attached to them in the last year or so. When they get patched I will be able to use them in SoA too. Its just pitiful that SE made bayld weaps that outdamage NQ empys, forget Delve h2h, we're talking about the h2h you get just for having SoA signet and smacking like 5 rieves down. Its an outrage.

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It is my understanding that coin weapons will NOT be receiving any form of buffs to the weapon, but will just allow you to permanently unlock the WS.

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Originally Posted by Stompa

When they get patched I will be able to use them in SoA too.

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They will be no different than now. If you go read any of the posts in which they brought up coin weapons they made it clear that while RMEs will be upgraded and made to be more powerful that coin weapons will only enable the user to unlock the WS. The only special properties on a coin weapon are its WS, nothing more, unlike an RME which has Attack/Acc, Additional Effect, +10~20 Base Stat, Job Ability/Trait enhancement, their own WS, extra WS DMG for their own WS, and last but not least, Aftermath/glow. For the fact they have all of these special stats, its important to upgrade them, coin weapons are not the same, and thus, are getting no upgrade, only an unlock for the 1 thing about them that matters.

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Originally Posted by Stompa

As a point of note to demon458745034whatever etc. who follow me around from thread to thread trolling on me and flaming my NQ Empy, those are legit weapons and didn't require a slave team farming Aby Bosses for you to build it. Most Tyrant Linkshells used the members as slaves to build HQ empys for the leaders, the slaves got some +2s and that was it. I chose to solo my NQ Empy and devote my LS time instead to helping people, not forcing them to farm Bukhis for 100s of hours just for my weapon.

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Ok, first off, stop acting like I am following you and giving you shit for your weapon, I am allowed to have an opinion and reply to a single person multiple times without it being following/trolling, especially when I am attempting to inform you of things you seem to be unaware of in the first place. I made a Fake Ukon, the Shamash, much the same as you did with your H2H, I know the work that need be put in them, I know the effort, I know the time, I did it myself.

Secondly, you apparently either have been in horrible linkshells, with horrible people, or have no idea what you are talking about. I was in a casual social linkshell with nothing more than a few friends of mine I have played with for the last 2 or so years, I made my Almace, not by making them my slaves and forcing them to do my bidding, but my going out and soloing what I needed to and asking for assistance when and if I needed it. I did not dualbox it, I did not brew it all, I worked hard to get it, and asked for help when I needed it.

I made both a real, and fake Empyrean weapon. Yes, Coin weapons are fake Empyrean weapons. Do you know why? Because simply put if you make an Empyrean weapon, the moogle makes a comment when you complete the first stage which actually calls it an Empyrean weapon, when you make a Coin weapon, he does not say anything special, he treats it like just another stage. I am near finished with my Masamune and my fake H2H, I will provide you screenshots when I am finished if you so wish, so you can see the difference. No matter if you wish to accept it or not, its not the same, they are in a different class.

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I was also on a Aby LS in 2010, and as WHM I spent my whole days alliance-burning bosses for the LS leaders empys. So I have in effect built around 10 full HQ Empys, they just werent for me coz I'm not a Tyrant LS leader. Obviously it is easier to build a HQ empy now using SOA gear, and you can low man or solo a lot of it now. But when I built my NQ empy, those were the options, have a slave team grinding bosses and /pass all the drops so only you would get stuff for your HQ empy, or go WOE and solo the open battlefield for your NQ Empy. I spent 16 months in WOE and worked hard on my NQ, which is a very good weapon, it just doesnt have aftermath. But I can sleep soundly at night knowing I didn't force my LS to be slaves with all their game time just so I could have a HQ. And I can manage fine without aftermath.

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As I said, horrible people, horrible LS. I did my Almace at level 90 cap, the majority of my time was spent on WAR with my GF on THF helping me, using Regen Atma to live through procing so we could kill the gigas and move on to the next. Was it hard? Yes, it wasn't a cake walk. Did I force my GF to do it? No, many times she did not come with me even because she was not able to get on due to work, but I made due with what I had and got it done. You will get no pity from me in the fact you did it, I did one too, it took me about 2 months of doing WoE to make mine, rather than 16, so I can understand your valuing it more, but it doesn't change facts.

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And if you read the quote in my last post, they are "BUILDING ON" all those weapons including NQ Empys, and thinking about freeing the WS from all those 4 weapon groups, not just NQ empys.

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Yes, that came from this thread, I know, yet this post, the most recent on the subject to my knowledge, says this...

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Originally Posted by Yoji_Fujito

Future Plans for Equipment
•Relic, mythic, and empyrean weapon revamps
•Unlocking empyrean weapons skills

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Now I know were going to go back to this whole thing about how Coin weapons are Empyrean weapons, but again, the Moogle does not recognize them as such, and since they did not include Coin weapons in those weapon revamps, I am inclined to believe they are to be excluded from such an adjustment. If I am wrong, then cool, I'm wrong, I can continue to use my Shamash, if I am correct however, I will happily use Ukko's Fury on my Ixtab I earned from Yumcax and be on my way.

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Originally Posted by Stompa

Heads up again. Bri and Sobek are the two easiest bosses in Aby. I built an Almace for my LS friend earlier this year, we duoed it easy upto the end of Sobek stage.

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Cool, I know they are, doesn't mean I didn't do it. You made the H2H, Chloris might be annoying to get pops for, but the fight itself is easier than Bria or Sobek, at least Bria has the annoying zombie attack and Sobek can 1hit you with Tyrant Tusk, Chloris has Doom, nothing more, unless you count Hundred Misses. The Sandworm was a pain, probably couldn't solo that one, but at the same time, ask friends to help once you have pops, not make them your slaves, not demand they help, ask, and offer +2s, not hard.

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The HQ Empys I was talking about building were the Azdaja Bukhis etc. high stages with stronger mobs and larger # of items needed, and back in 2010-2012. Also some of the lower stages such as stage 1 HQ empy staff the kon[a] ZB is not an easy mob to farm, not as easy as Bri anyway. Everyone knows Almace is the easiest path to build, but you keep bringing it up as an example of how building HQ empys is so easy. Back in 2010 we farmed Bukhis and Azdaja in alliance Aby LS, it was traumatising back then lol. And of course all drops went to the four LS founders. You will find that such Tyrant LS were VERY common in the early Aby years 2010-2012, when ppl could be exploited coz they wanted to get +2s. However they soon discover that its easier to /sh run +2s than to grind Buhkis 100x for the LS slavelord, and u finished your +2 item after three kills and were then forced to log in on WHM for the next three weeks for more Bukhis and /pass everything. That kind of shit is why people like me went to WOE and built our NQ empys.

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Azdaja was easy, and is still easy, by anyone who knows how to shadow tank and tanks him from behind. Bukhis is annoying, that one I give you, but it still had nothing at all to do with the H2H path, same as Azdaja. If you were making the Empyrean Staff, it was for the WS, nothing else, in which case the Coin weapon worked just as well, unlike others where there was an actually useful benefit to getting the real thing. Everything after that is simply you talking about, again, a horrible LS. I have said it before and I will say it again, if a LS wants me to continuously go to events on a job I don't want to, or to events I don't want to, for me to never get anything besides scraps at best, I leave that LS, because its not worth my time to be in a place where I am treated like a dual box mule. If you chose to stay there and put up with it, you made that choice, a rather bad one in my opinion, but you made it all the same.

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Regarding upgrades, the item I quoted you earlier, says "we are planning to build on REMC" and to free the ws from REMC. It does NOT SAY what you and the other person above said, about "coin" weapons (btw I'm going to start calling your HQ empys "Riftcinder weapons" instead of HQ empys, since riftcinder (like coins) is one of the final items required!) and that coin weapons are only getting ws freed from them, it says all those 4 groups are being 'built on' and the ws will be/may be freed from the whole group.

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Your post you quoted was from 5/1, in other words, the beginning of May, the one I quoted, was from last month, August 21st. Now, since my post is more recent, it is more likely to be accurate than the post of which you quoted which was made 3 and a half months prior. My quote only mentions RMEs, not Coin weapons, a distinction made by SE both when they made the trials, due to the Mooge's conversation with you, and SE when they made the thread you pointed out, where they specifically called them different things. What this means is, that in SE eyes, the only ones that matter on this subject, Coin weapons are not Empyrean weapons, and vice versa, which means since they were not mentioned in the quote I made, they are probably not being revamped.

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Doesnt matter to me what anyone else calls those weapons. Both NQ and HQ follow the empyrean NM path through all 9 nm stages, and they both contain the empyrean weaponskill. To me it seems pretty obvious that makes them low-quality and high-quality Empys respectively. But we can start calling them coin weaps and riftcinder weaps instead if that makes you happy.

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I started calling them Coin weapons when the representatives of the company as well as the producer of the game started calling them Coin weapons. Its not a term I heard used any time before that, till that time, I called them fake Emps. If you want to call Empyrean weapons riftcinder weaps, then by all means, do, but no one ever has before, there is no reason to do so, and its a different set of circumstances. To you, it seems obvious that by going half way on a weapon then taking the easier path makes them near equal, where 1 is high quality and 1 is normal quality, however SE seems to think of them as 2 separate categories of weapons, not the same one as you do.

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Fact ; Gear Snobs killed this game more than anything SE or the external game market ever did. The fact you call them fake empys is just a good example of gear snobbery. They are normal-quality/low-quality Empys, for people who don't have billions of gil, a team of slaves, and thousands of hours to spare.

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As I said, I own a Shamash, no different than your H2H in any way, a fake Emp, Coin Weapon, whatever term you choose to use, they are the same in terms of what they are for the different categories. How is it being a snob to call a weapon which is clearly inferior, and made to be so, a fake? Its not the real Empyrean weapon, it has the WS of an Empyrean weapon, but it is not recongnised as one, it is a copy, a ripoff, a fake, it mimics the most important part of the weapon while being nothing more than generic in the rest of its design. An Empyrean weapon has a unique model/look, like almost every RME does, it has a few unique stats, as all RMEs do, and it has an Aftermath, as all RMEs do, but Coin weapons lack all of these, every one of them is a copy of another weapon's design, they have no special stats or traits, and no Aftermath, they have only the weapon skill.

You can tell me I am a snob or whatever you choose, it changes nothing, the simple fact of the matter which you refuse to accept is that Coin weapons are not Empyrean weapons, SE has put them apart, drawn a line between them, they are separate and different from one another.

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My issue in this and other threads is simply that SoA made 'conquest points' weapons like the forefront that are stronger than the nq empys, and that is completey ridiculous. That was even on the forefront launch, but then SE patched forefronts to add DMG/skill+ to them, and my point is solely ; patch nq empys the same way, so I can toss my forefront h2h.

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What I keep trying to tell you is that your going to end up unlocking Victory Smite, the only reason for having your Coin weapon in the first place, and then no longer need them. Then, you can move on and use other weapons.

Which seems more likely, and overall better? That SE goes out and makes your Coin weapon with no special stats besides the WS a little better with some skill, an ilevel, and a DMG boost, just so 2 months from now it can be worthless again and you will complain some more, or for them to simply unlock your WS, you drop your Coin weapon, and then go out and use Forefront till you have something better like Rigors or Oats, at which point, you can still use your WS?

Now before you go saying that people with RMEs should see it the same way, remember, your weapon has no special stats besides that WS, RMEs have a number of them, particularly Mythics, so its not the same story for them still.



I have given you quotes, examples, and facts, you have given me walls of text which tell me about your experience with horrible linkshells and the fact you lack the want to make a RME weapon because of them, but feel your Coin weapon should be upgraded all the same, while seemingly ignoring everything I said to you in favor of your own opinion.

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Originally Posted by Stompa

No I wouldn't complain again. As I said before I used Dumuzis for years and was very happy with it. I didn't cry myself to sleep over the lack of aftermath. I will keep using that weapon because I like it. I am just pointing out the logic-fail of making SOA conquest-points weapons that outdamage a nq empy.

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Ok, lets say for instance they added 100 skill to Coin weapons. What happens when, like now, there are a pair of H2H that you can buy with Bayld which have 200 skill and 20 more DMG than your Dumuzis? Will you simply say nothing? If so, whats different between that and now? Nothing, there is still a large skill/attack/accuracy gap, you will complain again they changed it, you got a slightly better version of a weapon which could have been throw away had you simply learned the WS, and everything would have been able to continue easier once you bought the new Bayld weapons. If you wouldn't complain, you shouldn't be complaining now, because its basically the same circumstances.

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Your rant about coin weapons not being worthy enough to patch with DMG+/skill+ attack bonuses, completely ignores the fact that SE patched the forefront lolconquestpoints weapons in exactly this way, despite them not being HQ RME's, forefronts got damage spiked overnight, so why you would seriously expect SE to not patch coin weapons in the same DMG/skill way, is not logical. We agree that HQ RME's are more powerful and important weaps than NQ empys, but you seriously can't tell me that forefront weaps are more important than nq empys, and yet those forefronts got patched overnight.

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I think they upgraded all of the Adoulin gear in general because they made the content with that idea in mind, they simply had not finished everything they wanted to do technically with it such as ilevels and expanding the amount of stats on the gear that were possible to attach at the time. Now, they have, so they made the change. I do not think it was an update they meant to do separately, but rather, they wanted to do it at the same time & couldn't due to the SoA deadline, so they cut corners. Now, why do I expect SE not to patch Coin weapons when they did for the Forefront weapons? Simple, they were standardized weapons with nothing more than a special weapon skill on them to begin with. I think they see it probably in a similar way to how I do, if you have a Coin weapon and increase its DMG & give it some skill so its stats are the same as Forefront weapons, its not any different than if you simply slapped the WS on the Forefront weapon and called it a day. By allowing us to learn the WS, they are essentially doing just that, allowing us to use it with the Forefront weapons, rather than taking the time to come up with a method of upgrading Coin weapons to a Forefront level in stats.

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Also I know the NMs I listed were not all for h2h, I also farmed nq empy 99s in staff club and dagger. I built those after the WOE 'bag' patch when it became far easier to obtain. So I have 4x nq empy 99, and I also have 27 Magian 99s in elemental paths and ws paths, all at 99. And all in storage now, coz SE decided to make SoA conquest-points weapons more powerful.

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My point was that you were saying you didn't go out and make an Empyrean weapon, at the same time as telling me that mine was the easiest path, so I felt it only right to point out that your weapon of which you have been talking about, H2H, is not all to hard either, in my opinion its arguably the 3rd easiest, near the middle, harder than Bria/Sobek & Cara/C-C. Just because my weapon was the easiest does not mean that its the only one that does not require the enslavement of a linkshell worth of people to obtain however, which was what I was trying to say, you can make an Empyrean weapon without having an army of people working under you, which is what you made it sound like it took to make one.

My opinion on R/M/E weapons.

- Those who originally built these weapons were much more likely to get into delve runs when Seekers was released, meaning they had a head start, specially if they were DD.

- Therefore, the good players who play a lot, they either got into linkshells who could clear bosses, or they leveled a job like GEO to get those clears. (I geared Corsair and recently got Tojil and Muyingwa clear, one with my new linkshell, the other with a pick up group that I was the leader of)

- After getting sufficient experience, you can see why those players who want to fight delve bosses, only want DD with delve boss weapons, they are NOT walkovers by any means unless the linkshell is super efficient in every area.

- Therefore, nobody needs a R/M/E to get Delve clears, however they DO need to have done regular delve farms for some of the equipment (but not necessarily all to rank 15) and upgraded them for better performance. Getting Delve clears encourages players to level support jobs so they are not so reliant on equipment. (I see some Corsairs with poor equipment getting clears, whereas I personally wanted to gear it properly)

- Skirmish, bayld, voidwatch, salvage, NNI (etc.) equipment helps the casual player to perform better in Delve. Those players should stop sucking and get some of this equipment before complaining, specially if they want to DD.

- Getting RME to 99 is such an achievement that they should be better than Delve Weapons, but not completely surpassing them. Therefore those DD who want to get the absolute max will work on these, however, Delve/Delve Boss Weapons will still be strong enough to do Delve farm/bosses.

- Those players who quit due to outdated RME could come back and jump straight into Delve Content and be powerful enough to grind out the new equipment.

- Making RME relevant again helps the economy all around, more players doing dynamis/aht urhgan content/abyssea etc.

- If RME are in anyway inferior to Delve Weapons (or the weapons you can just buy off AH) no one will bother with them unless its shield/instrument.

While they can simply patch the RMEs and Coin weapons into top tier again they already said they will not. They said it will take even more effort to do so. At the same time they also said they will not be upgraded w/ the ToM system nor be put on life support with an equivalent system since Matsui intends this revamp to be their last mulligan.

Having said that I find it very unlikely they'll buff coin weapons since they said you'll have the WS free to use on any other weapon "So there's your buff" is what I'd imagine the Dev team to say. There is no buff to Coin weapons that I can see happening that would make any sense without the end result being that the real empys would be THAT much farther ahead by comparison.

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Originally Posted by Stompa

LOL @ taking the time to come up with a method. They patched Forefronts overnight. They didnt even need to announce it, and they made the decision and the method in short time too, since the forefronts had only been available in their old form for like 3~ weeks, when suddenly one morning they were patched. You must have hit your head, if you think they can't just apply the same type of DMG/skill patch to my Dumuzis, as they applied to forefronts.

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They just threw stats on a weapon which was made in Adoulin and probably meant to be that level from the time they added it, but couldn't overcome the technical issues with adding certain stats within the timeframe they had before Adoulin was supposed to be released. They said they had to remove limitations on the amount of stats which would be placed on an item, I actually believe them on that subject, it took them a little bit after Adoulin was out, but they have basically fully implemented ilevels now, we have crazy stats on every piece of Adoulin gear, tons more than anything else in the game has even come close to. So, while they just popped the stats on the Forefront weapons, I have little doubt in my mind they intended those weapons to be level 106 from the get go. On the other hand, your Dumuzis were made at level 99, for level 99s, not made for level 106 players, or made with stats that would be given to a player at level 106. How often does SE give us something for free, out of nothing? I see no reason to think that they will just upgrade RMEs out of thin air, one morning I will wake up, update my game, log in, and my Excalibur and Almace will be amazing rather than worthless like they were the night before. Any upgrade they do, will likely involve some amount of work on our part, they have to take time to do so, and I am sure its easier for them to push a couple buttons and make the restriction that requires a certain weapon to go away when you, say, trade it to a NPC, or do a quest like Mythic WSs, rather than having to come up with some sort of quest we would have to do in order to actually upgrade them.

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You are totally missing my point. I like using my current H2H. I worked hard on it when WoE drops were still harder to get (and expensive to buy). I like it. I want to use it. I don't want to swap it especially for a conquestpoints weapon. My complaint is that common SOA bayld weaps are stronger than nq empy99 in the first place. Just from a time perspective, my Dumuzis took 16 months~, forefront took 30 minutes. Hardship wise, grinding bosses in WoE years ago, was way harder than than hitting some chapulis in rieve to get 30k bayld for the lolconquestpoints h2h. So my point, why is the easier to obtain 30 minute weap stronger than my hard to obtain 16 month weap. And why the **** should I swap my nq empy out for that conquest points weap. It makes NO SENSE.

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Because the game has never worked that way. You could have made an Empyrean weapon solo, even if it meant leveling & gearing a brand new job you never played before, and still have been done getting your Empyrean finished before 16 months went by. If you want to argue time for reward, its not always perfect, I can spend more time trying to get a Fire STR Sword than I do getting a Forefront Blade but that Forefront Blade will be better by far, forever, simply because its higher level. Believe it or not, your arguing the same thing. You did similar trials, you got a weapon with the WS for that, the benefit of which was the WS itself, by allowing you to unlock the WS, you are keeping your real reward while being able to toss out its 'shell' which you had to use in order to have access to that WS. Just because it took you more time or work does not mean it will be better, its still a normal weapon, just with 1 added benefit to it which makes it special enough to be worth of the adjustment which makes that benefit available to you with all weapons.

In either case, this all goes back to what I said earlier, the only thing this effects differently is your sentimental value of the item in question. Unlocking the WS or bumping its stats does nothing different no matter how you look at it in terms of stats, it only effects your sentimental value of the item, you don't want to trade it out even if the alternative is literally doing the same thing for you, simply because item A is something you feel you worked very hard to get while item B is super easy to get.

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Currently forefront cesti is +63 h2h skill. So I don't know where you are getting your info from. I just think its wrong that I should equip those things just to hit mobs in rieves, when I have capped skills and some high accuracy gear, and a nq empy99 which misses mobs while the stupid bayld h2h doesnt. Thats wrong, and you can dance around the issue all day long, but you wont be able to justify that ever.

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Had we actually leveled, rather than gotten item levels, you would be hitting them with a level 99 weapon while leveled up to level 119~120. While you would be able to hit because your skill would be higher, you would look stupid for using a weapon 20 levels lower than you were. Now, that's not the case, the skill is tied to the level, does it suck to an extent? Yes, it does, but that's what SE did. I know what your issue is, its that your tied to a weapon from 99 you want to use for sentimental value, I get that, you cant use that weapon anymore because it doesn't have the accuracy from the skill that the new weapons have, I get that too, but I cant explain it to you any way that I haven't already explained. The weapon you made was made for level 99s, this is made for level 106s, since they did not move past 99, they made gear for higher levels and put the stats we would have at those levels on the weapons, you can not hit with your level 99 weapons which makes you more gimp than you would be normally, but in either case, your still gimping yourself intentionally.

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Also I'm not MNK, I'm PUP, I got Pup75 in 2006 and had to solo it back then too coz it was terribly hated on job for getting invites with. I play a lot of remote-mode stuff and kiting etc. I'm not always meleeing. So maybe you can understand why I dont care about having aftermath, or about future mega h2hs etc. I just like my Dumuzis, and think they and all RME's should have been brought in line with SoA at its starting day. Since I've got them and worked to get them, and they are in every sense a more worthy weapon than forefronts, I don't see why SE have put conquest-points weapons at higher dmg/acc than nq empys. I was building a mythic h2h years ago too, but our static broke up during Aby, and its near impossible to get ppl for Toau now unless your mythic LS hasnt broken up. So I abandoned Mythic, built an empy (NQ) only to find that the SoA expansion I paid good money for, has put conquest points weapons on a higher damage bracket than my nq empy.

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You say I dance around the main issue yet your talking about being a PUP not a MNK, when I never said anything about either. If your doing things from a distance then neither should matter anyways, PDT H2H for your pet would be more important to be upgraded than this, at least then your Automaton would get some benefit I would think, rather than you just standing around with them at your sides because you made them. Besides that, if your not even really fighting, why the hell does any of this matter to begin with?

So far as things being put right the starting day of SoA, I have said it before and I say it again, they never should have needed to change other gear to work with SoA, because SoA should never have broken the game the way it did. The fact of the matter is, nothing can be changed about that now, they are determined they will do ilevels and all of the other stupid mistakes I feel they made in SoA and they will continue on with them, so be it. But if they do these things, everyone, not just you, everyone, will have to understand the majority of gear and weapons are being left behind, the only reason RMEs are being excluded from this is the fact they took so much time and effort to make in the first place, people complained, and in the end, the weapons are special in a few ways. Coin weapons are special in a single way, a way of which makes it basically a mediocre copy of an Empyrean, missing 75% of what a real one has that makes it special, I was amazed but pleased they were doing anything for them to begin with, but I never expected or wanted them to upgrade them because I understand they are normal weapons with a WS attached, and to make a real upgrade for them is not really a big deal except for sentimental value when you can simply unlock the WS overall, and allow all weapons to use it, providing the same purpose.

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Off you go, do some more dancing round the main issue.
:mad:

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The main issue you are talking about is them upgrading the weapon you made and your being mad because they made easy to obtain weapons which are stronger. Your emotionally tied to your weapon in some way that makes it so that even if another weapon is superior in every single way and has all of the same special properties as your old weapon as well as benefiting from it, you will not let it go, and feel it must be upgraded. I understand it, I am trying to explain why it probably wont happen, and why I do not think it should matter outside of sentimental value. If you simply said yes, its for sentimental value, that's one thing, but you seem to be trying to make it sound as though for some reason it actually matters outside of that, in which case, I fail to see how.

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Originally Posted by Slaxx

100% chance of non-stop bitching no matter how the upgrades are handled.

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Its true. Because implementing it will only last for the moment, until something else gets implemented. Unless they make it like GM item with 9999 stats on everything lol..

Relics: Should be upgraded

Mythics: -Definitely- should be upgraded

Empyreans: Should be upgraded

Coin Weapons: I fail to see how these will be upgraded, I mean all they were used for was the weaponskill, if you want the WS that bad, just build an empy. It's like how my BLU was once able to use Knights of Round thanks to Corbenic Sword. I like it only for the fact I have it. It serves no purpose in endgame content, and like the coin weapons it won't be upgraded.

If I come off as blunt sorry, but the truth is that Coin weapons are not going to be upgraded as far as I've seen, there's no point to even keeping them if the ws becomes unlockable. When that happens, the endgame H2H such as Rygor or Oats are going to be far superior now with that weaponskill in your arsenal, and I recommend just putting the coin weapon in storage, because at least when you're doing you own thing you'll be able to wear them.

I was jumping happily when I got my Arondight, but by that time things had already surpassed it to the point that Arondight will never see the light of day unless I level a mule. It's my favorite sword aside from Excal and Haute, but I keep it in my storage because whenever I wanna play with it, I know it'll be there.

I am almost positive that before they updated alot of gear we had to have more stats that they said they would like rem to be of iLVL 150. which is down the line from what we have now so if they are givin us updates this fall i wonder if there will be a few trials to upgrade as we go so they arent jsut crazy over board compared to everything we have now. I will have to search for where he said 150 tho.

EDIT: I couldnt find the 150 thing but i only looked in threads about item levels and remc specifically.

This thread is full of tl;dr, I thought daemon wasn't posting anymore, so now demon has to post 100 paragraph long life stories?

hmm found this... it wont be multiple upgrades as we go along then.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...742#post437742

The level 150 comment I believe you are referring to is Matsui's BS comment about how if they made Ochain an ilevel item it would be level 150 with how powerful the shield is. I do not recall any time they said they were upgrading items to level 150.

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Originally Posted by Karah

This thread is full of tl;dr, I thought daemon wasn't posting anymore, so now demon has to post 100 paragraph long life stories?

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Either you reply to nearly every last bit of a persons post by chopping it down into individual sections & replying, which is what I did, and had a long post because of it due to the fact what I replied to was long, or you can simply cut it down to a few small bits and people claim you didn't read it all and only skimed for the parts that make your argument look better. I rather go with A, people wont read half, but at least they cant say I didn't read theirs.

I think you're getting the 150 from Matsui commenting on Ochain being given a ilvl designation of 150 if it were ever to be given one.

EDIT Beaten by Demon

Remove all R/E/M/Ds from the game until the "R/E/M/D only" parties stop.

I log in these days and go level my twentieth monster to 50. It's super exciting and I love it. \ \ \ \ Waves of Sarcasm / / / /

The current content drought should make it fairly obvious that we needed RMEs to keep FFXI playable. If RMEs weren't invalidated then I would have a reason to make Mandau (and thus do things that make gil / complete relic requirements / play the game at all). As it is, I don't.



There were ways to adjust the game so that RMEs were not necessary and shouted for, like:

1) Released "boring" sidegrades to RMEs (equivalent or slightly better DPS than RMEs even after considering RME hidden effects and aftermath). - Thus the boring weapons would have higher base damage than relics.

2) Released equipment that had Weapon Damage+ on it. - This would benefit RMEs (lower base damage) more than the boring weapons.


Example, assuming the boring weapon has 5% higher DPS than the relic after hidden effects with no weapon damage in gear:
- Mandau (D55/176 delay, 10 fSTR, 13% triple damage on first attack round swing, 1.4 attacks/swing average) = 36.8 DPS
- Boring Dagger 1 (1.4 attacks/swing average, 10 fSTR, 191 delay, 38.6 DPS) = D78 weapon (32.7/60*191/1.4 = 87.8)


With D+40 in gear:
- Mandau (D95/176 delay, 10 fSTR, 13% triple damage on first attack round swing, 1.4 attacks/swing average) = 59.4 DPS
- Boring Dagger 1 (D118/191 delay, 1.4 attacks/swing average, 10 fSTR) = 56.3 DPS


So a 5% advantage (Boring > RME) becomes a 5% disadvantage (Boring < RME) due to a large increase in the the base damage from equipment. Thus, RMEs are still relevant. When you want to increase the content level to 140, you just release Boring Dagger 2 and new equipment. Also, importantly, neither Boring Dagger 1 or Mandau is unusable in this case.

This would mean no more RME shouts, because armors are the important part (D+40 is +45% DPS boost to Boring Dagger 1). RMEs would still be usable and would still be "the best" when properly geared, but they would be a minor increase in DPS over the generic version of the weapon (maxing out around 5%) even when properly geared and equipment would the more important distinction.



This would have been the right way to make the change. No extra RME updates. 12 slots to stick weapon damage in and motivate us to do events. It would have required more "balance" than just invalidating the whole system, but it would not have been impossible. I'm sure that SE's models of damage are better than my napkin math, so they can doubtlessly choose more accurate values than me. The point is just that such values exist and that such a change was an option.

Combine this change with untethering the Empyrean WSs from Empyrean weapons and there would really have been some cool changes to the battle system!

Don't expect anything else than :
Super Dynamis Lord, have to kill it 250 times for spharai revamp.
Super Pandemonium Warden, have to kill it 250 times for KKK revamp.
Super Provenance Watcher, have to kill it 250 times for vere revamp.

Soon 3 manned by you preferred poster.

-Pchan.

PS : make afterglow a sphere effect not dependent on WS used, and give a bone to afterglow. After all it's about 5x easier to beat ADL now than what it used to be ? I'm sure a MNK+SMN combo can duo it. I'd go as far a s to say that a bunch of ilevel 113 smn can kill it.

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Originally Posted by Stompa

How can they hit mobs hard, and my lvl 99 NQ empy can't?

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How can Adoulin have a complex inter-town teleport system and Windurst a few random Warp Tarus?

I blame the Lifestream. Now where's Sephiroth to just nuke it all from orbit?