Run has received some good job merits just as all the other jobs have received at lvl 75, and we are moving in the right direction. However, the gap between run and pld is still very wide. Issues of concern I have are crowd control, multiple element casting mobs, lack of hp restoration, and how run deals with incoming physical damage.
Crowd Control
Pld is far superior in this category, with there auto refresh, powerful shields, cures, gear and JA's, pld are able to hold 7 or 8 high lvl mobs or 2 high lvl nms for long periods of time allowing dd's to conduct various tasks like clear rieves, delve farm, etc. Run even with battuta and shadows can only hold about 3 high lvl mobs at most, and thats only for 90 seconds. Reason being is because the physical damage transfer on run is just so high, you can not evade everything and do to multiple attackers what ever slips through starts to have deadly consequences. We need increased crowd control capabilities to close the gap between pld and run in this category
Multiple Element Casting Mobs
Aegis for pld, enough said. However on run this is still a huge problem, lightning elementals in marjami ravine for example cast multiple elements. Run had a good solution when the recast for runes was reduce to zero. Now with that not being the case anymore, run is abysmal at dealing with multiple element casting mobs when you compare it with pld.
Hp Restoration
Pld cures are a far superior method at HP restoration over run's regens, the reason why is because cures can be spammed and its instant HP. On the other hand, regens cannot be spammed and the HP is not instant leaving run at a great disadvantage. Moreover, pld have multiple ways to restore mp which further allow them to cure spam even more efficiently. The gap need to be closed between pld and run's ability to restore HP.
Damage Mitigation
This is the biggest problem and the widest gap, pld has sentinel, rampart, palisade, iron will along with aegis and ochian. Sentinel can get a pld 100% physical reduction which decays to 80% for a period of 30 second with half decent damage reduction gear. I dont know if sentinel block magic attacks, however wiki stay it can reduce 1000 needles by 90% reducing damage to 100. Rampart offer both physical and magical protection. 99 Ochain allow plds to cure themselves without interuption and it restores 35% of damage blocked into mp. Run has battuta, vallation/valiance, Inspire, One for All, Swoldplay, and runes. Our abilities still do not measure up, One for All need a secondary buff added to it, and there need to be better ways to mitigate physical damage. Battuta and inspire are good but its not enough to deal with run damage mitigation woes.
Run vs Pld
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08-04-2013, 09:18 AMCljader1Run vs Pld
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08-04-2013, 11:37 AMDelvish
Shield block rate has a hard cap with any shield (other than Ochain) of 65% according to BGWiki.com. Parry rate caps at 20%. With Inquartata, we are able to increase the parry rate to 33% so 1/3rd of the time we block out-right assuming we have sufficient skill to hit that 20% cap. With RUN at the very least, our inquartata needs to be able to get us closer to 50% (be it cap increase or job traits) along with battuta allowing us 70-80%. Only then is a 30% uptime on Battuta warranted. Additionally, we need to have gear available to get the skill high enough so we aren't floored at 5% vs. NMs. The parry can work, but we need to be able to parry comparable to shield's block rate. SE is doing some funny business to block rate of new shields so hopefully they are playing with Parry as well.
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08-04-2013, 12:36 PMdasva
Parry rate actually seems to be higher. Someone did parsed parrying while doing blocking tests with a swd that had a bunch of parrying on pld which is only C rank parry and got 26% on lvl 105 mobs.
Some posts made by devs makes it seem like block rate is going to go way down as mob lvls rise without alot more skill which the shields plds use wont have. And then making the new shields get less so they wont overtake a bad blockrate on ochain insted of keeping it good it seems -
08-04-2013, 01:53 PMCljader1
Nerfs are not the answer, all it does is inflame the playerbase of that nerfed job, and its lazy man attempts to fix issues. Run need better tanking tools and we need our super weapons, you know things that only run can wear and greatly enhance job. I would like to see "magic evade and counter" on run, but fixing our current JAs should be the main focus, like embolden, liement ward, and swordplay.
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08-04-2013, 05:12 PMdasva
Instead of trying to do what pld does but better think it should have it's own identity. Be way better at mitigating dmg than everything but pld but take advantage of being a job that uses gswds and actually does enough dmg to stay close enough to the DDs to actually ya know have hate and be brought in the first place. Up that rune dmg a decent chunk. Allow full time battura. Your a fencer for godsakes put that gswd in there face like you mean it lol
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08-05-2013, 08:06 AMsaevel
....
RUN and PLD aren't even in the same category. It's a light DD job that contributed utility to a group. AFO and Valliance are pretty powerful in the right situation and RUN can wear all the right gear. -
08-05-2013, 03:36 PMCljader1Well SE needs to make adjustments to put run in the same category.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
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08-05-2013, 04:42 PMOmnysValefor
OP, talking about fodder--
If an ochain pld can get all of them in front of his shield, he can hold a lot more than 8 mobs solo. To be perfectly honest, if I have a healer and we're just talking about trash, they don't even have to be in front of my shield (pulling in delve). That's with a -50% PDT kit however.
Sentinel has no affect on magic damage, 1000 needles is physical and loved so much for testing purposes because it always does the same amount of damage. It lets us understand the value of things. With Valor Leggings, the first seconds of sentinel decrease physical damage taken, including 1000 needles, to 0.
When SE was talking about the blocking of shields vs new delve, they said that shields with shield skill were blocking way too much, old shields weren't blocking enough, and that there was a bug with parrying where everyone was parrying too much, and that all this would be adjusted.Quote:
Originally Posted by dasva
Parry, as run's primary mitigation mechanic, sucks for supertanking even one nm, because you can't parry while disengaged. It's impractical to be engaged on a distant target because it will likely move/be killed. It would be unique to the job if they gave run a stance that engaged them, perhaps permanently in the parry position, increased their parry rate, but did not swing.
Now for some good news--there's been some talk in the monk forums over on ffxiah about armor having higher PDT value than a lot of PDT gear. The new heads are better PDT pieces for mnk/sam/nin than Arhat's head +1. Arhat's Gi +1, for now, is still the best PDT body.
Montenten's Testing
The problem (for paladins!) is that as armor increases, the number required to be worth 1% PDT increases. I don't believe there is a supertanking body piece that beats Odin V2 or Mekira Meikogai's. However, because our base defense is so high, we of course aren't lacking, and we're not lacking in PDT gear.
I'm not at all trying to say everything will be fine, I'm just pointing people to some interesting reading since RUN and MNKs wear the same class of gear.
Does RUN need PLD's level of defense (the literal stat)? Probably not, but it makes sense that they should be able to PDT cap in attractive gear, as pld can, on top of having a healthy level of defense. There are plenty of bosses that are physical only, or where physical is the killer, but few bosses where they are magic only.
I also want to state the obvious that defense has value of -PDT vs melee swings, but of course doesn't matter vs physical specials, like 1000 needles. My pld in no pdt gear with protect 5 and defender will take 1000 points of damage just like my pld naked, with no buffs, would.
And let's be honest, for supertanking purposes, pld has whm, rdm, and run subs for barring spells effectively.
To be honest, I groaned when they announced RUN as a tank. The game didn't need a new tank for several reasons, including:
They could never really keep meat-tanking and blink-tanking head to head. For much of the game's history, one was greatly superior to the other.
Who's tanking now? I get to tank wildskeeper rieves, though I guess RUN can too, but I don't get to tank delve bosses, or anything else where mass death isn't expected. I'm grateful for my position but I'd hardly call supertanking tanking. It's a fine facet of the job (pld), but now it is its main purpose.
Enmity cap is very low and it is obtainable within a single 2hr. SE knows of the enmity issues, the enmity update showed that and was great progress toward the problem, but then came delve weapons, and things were mostly back to the status-quo of the previous week.
RUN IS getting left out, but it's not a pleasant place they're getting left out of.
I post here only because the OP clearly hasn't *really* played paladin and was speculating about a lot of things. He isn't wrong, I was just contributing to the discussion, and clarifying. -
08-05-2013, 08:12 PMDelvishUnsure if promoting RUN as a DD or as a tank...Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
Regardless, RUN is a Dank right now and that doesn't even sound good. SE needs to figure out how to make RUN either a full-fledged tank or an acceptable DD. -
08-05-2013, 11:39 PMMartelDank ehh? Well, my run is certainly getting kinda moldy... Can't seem to find anything to do with it that I can't do better on DRG or PLD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delvish
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08-06-2013, 12:50 AMdasva
I think I'd rather have it as a good hybrid between the 2. If you make it full DD... well it's going to be useless since there's no way they are going to make it better than the current kings. If they make it a full fledged tank you either out pld somehow or continue to be not as good as pld and not used.... not like pld gets much use anyways
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08-06-2013, 09:22 PMsaevelIt's a support DD, not a tank. It was never and can never be a Tank, FFXI's enmity and damage mechanics don't support "tanking". The best it could do is hold a NM that happens to heavily rely on a specific element for damage, essentially nakuls.Quote:
Originally Posted by dasva
Now you know what RUN is absolutely amazing at? Ensuring your DD's don't die. Valiance is absolutely amazing. It turns the shark fight into a complete joke. One For All is pretty awesome too, provided you time it right, again the shark is a perfect example. Pop it right when your melee's engage it and they can pretty much ignore it's magic damage for awhile.
So basically RUN does damage while providing utility. This allows it to be strategically deployed to various battles. Many JP groups refuse to do Foret without 2 solid RUN's for this reason.