Steal/Despoil timers

What you wrote:

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The job abilities Steal and Despoil will be adjusted to not share reactivation timers.

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What it should have read:

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The job ability Steal will be separated from Aurasteal. Aurasteal will become its own job ability and its recast timer lowered to 1 Minute

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These are two of the most useless abilities in the entire game. No one cares about steal. No one cares about despoil.

Separating the recast timers for these two abilities does nothing.

How about this? Just delete Steal and Despoil from the game and leave Aurasteal.

Oh, but see, they've made it clear that if Aura Steal was split off, it would be over-powered.

Which begs the question, what can we currently Aura Steal that has them so panicked... :D

Steal and Despoil have no use as shared or separate JA`s since theres nothing worth stealing off mobs anyway. I agree with OP, Aura Steal would serve a better purpose as it's own ability since it's actually useful. I would also like to know why you consider Aura Steal over-powered as its own JA, an explanation would help us to understand your line of thought.

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Originally Posted by Calatilla

Steal and Despoil have no use as shared or separate JA`s since there's nothing worth stealing off mobs anyway. I agree with OP, Aura Steal would serve a better purpose as it's own ability since it's actually useful. I would also like to know why you consider Aura Steal over-powered as its own JA, an explanation would help us to understand your line of thought.

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It's mostly because they think aurasteal is a really cool ability, but they don't understand how poorly they implemented it into the game and how useless stealing monster enhancements is 99.99% of the time...if ever by chance you run into a monster has enhancements you can steal. 99% of monsters do not.

And most of that 1% that do...you just can't steal them because THAT would be too powerful.

lol

And even some of the ones you CAN steal and make use of....say Cocoon from a crawler...wears off in ~5 seconds. Because THAT would be too powerful for a THF to have for any kind of reasonable duration.

There are so many things that Aurasteal CAN"T do because it's "Overpowered" that the ability itself....is just terrible. AND it's on a 5 minute recast timer, AND its mashed together with steal which takes effect first if a monster has a steal pool (Hello to you Ice Spikes and Skeletons) Which ALSO means you can't use it if your inventory is full.

The real reason that they think its so overpowered is because the job lead for THF doesn't understand very much about THF (clearly), or the extremely limited opportunities to make any kind of use for aurasteal, or even the way FFXI is played. No one makes SATA lines, no one uses weapon skills once every minute etc.

They are just out of touch with the game. It's that simple.

I'd appreciate if they added Steal/Despoil pools to new enemies now too :(

Hopefully the useful items required for quests in SoA are added to the pools of steal/despoil.

Camate, are you able to provide us some additional information about the development team's plans for THF?

If not, can you acknowledge whether or not they even have any plans to update THF?

I know we've asked for these details many times in the past ever since they posted that bit about making updates to THF so that it will really "Shine" but it has been a very long time and we've heard nothing about what that might be.

And we get updates like this that don't make any sense. Can you see this from our side?

First they say that their job vision for Thief is a stealthy pickpocket...

Then they said they don't want us to be stealing valuable items...so why give THF a redundant update to steal and despoil?

Is this because the dev team has plans to adjust these abilities so that they actually do something worthwhile and relevant to the game? Because currently, they don't. Surely the devs must know this.....right? :(

Seriously, there's enough good reasons for THF to be around IF you fix stuff like this.

We can stab something in the back for massive damage once a minute, yet the ability that MIGHT let me yoink a mushroom off something is a 5-minute cooldown? Wat? Heck, let us occasionally yoink a temp item like if the mob was holding a blue chest if nothing else is available from the mob as a Steal/Despoil target.

Also, it'd be nice if we actually got to understanding what helped Steal/Despoil's accuracy. Y'know, for science.

Maybe the only reason they wish to separate the timers is for one of the new NM's will be weaker from using steal/despoil. We never know what they are thinking. I only hope that some day they will listen to our posts and implement one of our ideas.

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Originally Posted by Rustic

Seriously, there's enough good reasons for THF to be around.

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Just out of sheer, morbid curiosity....what might you think those reasons are?

They can use the most broken ability in the game.

AURASTEAL

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

They can use the most broken ability in the game.

AURASTEAL

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And pretty soon we'll be able to steal SP1 Abilities!!! From all kinds of stuffs. Like Naakua...no..Delve N....errr...ummhn...we can steal SP1 from.....something?

We sure do get all the coolest abilities that have absolutely no use! :cool:

The hint is in the description: "Adds a Dispel effect to Steal"

Aura Steal is more strategic, for example if a NM becomes immune to magic for say 30 seconds after using a spell such as Shock Spikes you can't use Finale or Dispel to remove that Shock Spikes until the immunity wears off, so melee are forced to face away. With Aura Steal you can remove Shock Spikes, and melee can continue on without waiting or taking damage from Shock Spikes.

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Originally Posted by Zemzerrett

The hint is in the description: "Adds a Dispel effect to Steal"

Aura Steal is more strategic, for example if a NM becomes immune to magic for say 30 seconds after using a spell such as Shock Spikes you can't use Finale or Dispel to remove that Shock Spikes until the immunity wears off, so melee are forced to face away. With Aura Steal you can remove Shock Spikes, and melee can continue on without waiting or taking damage from Shock Spikes.

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Every 5 minutes....

wasnt there a new ability coming that allowed thf to steal effects including 2 hours? I cant remember where i read about that.

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Originally Posted by Trumpy

wasnt there a new ability coming that allowed thf to steal effects including 2 hours? I cant remember where i read about that.

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It's our new 2 1 hour ability. Though since SoA was released, it's been proven to be useless before it's even been released. RDMs can rejoice, our ability is now more useless than theirs!

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Originally Posted by Zemzerrett

The hint is in the description: "Adds a Dispel effect to Steal"

Aura Steal is more strategic, for example if a NM becomes immune to magic for say 30 seconds after using a spell such as Shock Spikes you can't use Finale or Dispel to remove that Shock Spikes until the immunity wears off, so melee are forced to face away. With Aura Steal you can remove Shock Spikes, and melee can continue on without waiting or taking damage from Shock Spikes.

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OK I'll bite. Could you provide an example of an NM where this is the case? Because I make it a point to try to do everything I can on THF....and I have never come across one that "uses shock spikes and then becomes immune to magic for 30 seconds."

I have, however, come accross several monsters that gave me a useles bone chip instead of dispelling the ice spikes like I wanted.

I have also experienced several NMs, like Turul for example, where Aurasteal just doesn't work at all.

Lets put aside for a second that Aurasteal is dependant on the success rate of steal, is NOT 100% accurate and was just plain coded not to work on a great many NMs...even though acording to the devs "That (NMs) is what Aurasteal is for."

IT'S ON A 5 MINUTE TIMER. You know what monsters do when you dispell their effects? They reapply them....seconds later.

When you steal Cocoon form a Crawler and it wears off 5 seconds later...do you feel like those were merits well spent?

I even have it merited 5/5 now becuase I figured i'd try stealing all those defense and evasion boost TP moves fracture mobs love to spam? And I STILL have yet to find a strategic use for it.

Edit:

And I'm pretty sure Krabnuckle was being sarcastic.

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Originally Posted by Trumpy

wasnt there a new ability coming that allowed thf to steal effects including 2 hours? I cant remember where i read about that.

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Yeah, except for the fact that no monsters in SoA use SP1 abilities (The new ability will be specifically coded NOT to work on SP2).

AWESOME new SP2 :rolleyes:

I'd sure like Mug to have its recast timer taken down by at least 5 minutes.
15 minutes for Mug, an ability that will probably get you 200gil at the most? We wouldn't even get rich off of it if it were a 5 min recast timer. :P

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Originally Posted by Nebo

OK I'll bite. Could you provide an example of an NM where this is the case? Because I make it a point to try to do everything I can on THF....and I have never come across one that "uses shock spikes and then becomes immune to magic for 30 seconds."

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How about, oh, I don't know, EVERY POT IN THE GAME? http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Spectral_Barrier
How about EVERY AHRIMAN IN THE GAME? http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Magic_Shield
How about EVERY SOULFLAYER IN THE GAME? http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Immortal_Shield

Let's not even forget about any enemy that is resistant to darkness spells that "Dispel" won't land on regardless of Magic Shield and Magic Barrier. And to a lesser extent things immune to light, and unable to be Finale'd.

Try to dispel dread spikes from the elementals in Heroes of abyssea. That's right, you can't, Aura Steal.

Just an example, think before you type.

Stealing 60 Minute shockspikes from Mother Globe is pretty legit. (maybe it's 30 minutes?) Not entirely useful, but worth the entertainment.

How about stealing the MASSIVE boost of Fluorescence from JoL, yeah you're all to new to even know about that tactic aren't you.

How about Stealing Carabosse's Regain, from (Summer Breeze) SIMPLY F*CKING AMAZING.

You complain about things that you don't even know how to use properly. Aura Steal -DOES- infact, have a few good uses. It's not game shatteringly awesome, but it certainly has them.

Yes, it's usefulness is certainly limited by it's timer, and it's ability to actually steal an ITEM instead of a buff. It would be MUCH better as it's own ability, with a realistic timer, and IN-ability to actually "steal" an item and just absorb a buff.

Before we get into what’s REALLY wrong with your argument, a couple of things:

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How about, oh, I don't know, EVERY POT IN THE GAME?
How about EVERY AHRIMAN IN THE GAME?

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Almost Every Pot and Ahriman in the game has an item to steal that will proc with a high rate. But that aside, sure, dispelling irrelevant damage spikes from irrelevant monsters could be mistaken by someone new to THF (or FFXI) as being useful. :confused:

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How about EVERY SOULFLAYER IN THE GAME?

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How about that? Directly from the link you just quoted:
■Unlike other Magic Shields, it does not seem to block enfeebling spells or songs

Obgligatory: Aurasteal on a 5 minute timer. Soulflayers SPAM ice spikes. Not Stratgically useful blah blah blah.

None of those mobs use shock spikes either, but thats beside the point.

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Stealing 60 Minute shock spikes from Mother Globe is pretty legit.

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Yeah, that’s right. STEALING shock spikes in SKY is somehow useful on THF…the job with the highest evasion in the entire game.:rolleyes:

Putting those aside for a second. What I was responding to was this:

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Aura Steal is more strategic, for example if a NM becomes immune to magic for say 30 seconds after using a spell such as Shock Spikes you can't use Finale or Dispel to remove that Shock Spikes until the immunity wears off, so melee are forced to face away. With Aura Steal you can remove Shock Spikes, and melee can continue on without waiting or taking damage from Shock Spikes.

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Which stated that Aurasteal was strategically useful for dispelling shock spikes from some magic immune NM that are so super strong that the melees have to turn to avoid them.

None of the things you just listed fall into that category. I can’t even remember the last time I killed a pot or an ahriman? Let alone a Pot or Ahriman NM?

Dispelling an irrelevant effect like blaze/shock spikes from irrelevant monsters once every 5 minutes qualifies as strategic? Sure.:confused:

Even that were true, guess what monsters that use those effects do once you dispel them? That’s right sunshine, they reapply them seconds later. These casters that you listed also like to use other enhancement effects/spells on themselves too, so you are just as likely to steal some other random thing that also has no strategic value.

Perhaps you should take your own advice.

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think READ before you type.

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Sorry to be the one to break it to you, but shock spikes are -always- an annoyance.

I like how you neglected to quote all the valid points, and only the ones your opinion decided were not "good enough" to count.

NM Ahriman lately? How about Akvan?

NM pot, Teekelsechen.

Dispelling an enemy buff (unless its going to die immediately) is always STRATEGICALLY effective.

An annoyance, ice/shock spikes even casted by irrelevant mobs is -ALWAYS- worth removing.

Having shock spikes on thf, is actually quite neat, though since you're a noob you probably don't even know how to AE cleave with a thf. Even though evasion is capped, shit DOES still hit you.

Also, there are some really neat things you can steal, Sharp Strike for one, Orcish counterstance, POTENT regain, Songs, pro and shell if you're soloing. HASTE, a huge swing in power going from a mob having haste while you're lacking last to the opposite.

Just because you have no clue, doesn't invalidate the use of something, sorry dood.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

How about EVERY SOULFLAYER IN THE GAME?
How about that? Directly from the link you just quoted:
■Unlike other Magic Shields, it does not seem to block enfeebling spells or songs

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I added that, because Soulflayers are immune to darkness, dispel.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2lvjqxi.png

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Originally Posted by Karah

NM Ahriman lately? How about Akvan?

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If Akvan uses spikes, it's incredibly rare. I've personally never seen it, neither wikipedia nor BG mention it, and Ahriman only use blaze spikes anyway.

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Originally Posted by Karah

http://i44.tinypic.com/2lvjqxi.png

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Cause there's no Light Based Dispel amirite?.

Aurasteal is sh*t grade sh*t with sh*t filling, It misses at a very infuriating rate on a lot of the new NMs, and there are several effects that are just pure undispellable. Aurasteal, While not entirely useless, has no strategic or important enough situations to make it actually a valid and reasonable ability to be locked to a 5 minute timer. Summoner's have a 100% Dispel effect too you know, its called Pavor Noct... Its a good chunk of MP But It can't miss (outside of enemy being 100% Immune to dispel, which doesn't much happen).

Aurasteal can take some nice abilities, But it also cannot dispel songs, one of the few things that'd be nice to have... Absorb-Attri can take songs though. Furthermore, No new NM has any enhancement effects that wont be immediately reapplied, or at least within seconds. Even in Salvage, the best use i found was taking the Cerberus' Blaze Spikes, but he usually reapplies them a few short moments later, and they're not even dangerous enough that its needed to be dispelled... It, Like every single time i use AuraSteal, is just a case of "Well, Its something that i can dispell, Might as well use the ability...", Its never some glorious strategically placed Hundred Fists to kill a VT Fly, Its just a "eh... guess i could?" Steal.

Plus, There's not a Ahriman, Soulflayer, or Magic Pot I've fought in the last 3 years thats required to be dispelled, or a THF is even invited for... Adding the "Invited for" cause of NNI.

This ability, while not 101% Useless, is everything but, and this glorified pedestal'in of it is either full on terminal psychosis from severe denial of THF being the most useless job in the game post-Adoulin, or quite possible the most impressive grasping for straws i've ever witnessed on these here forums.

The Ability is a steaming pile of situational sh*t, while not worthless, it doesn't change the fact is has no real advantages whatsoever, It is, by all rights and purposes, the Toad Pet of THF.

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Sorry to be the one to break it to you, but shock spikes are -always- an annoyance.

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Herp a derp a derp, “I hate to break it to you doooooood,” but they are ALWAYS reapplied in seconds by mobs that use them. This is WHY Aurasteal is not strategically valuable for dispelling them.

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NM Ahriman lately? How about Akvan?

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Oh yes, I forgot. THF is SRS BZNSSS in Voidwatch. That must be why all the alliances are tripping over themselves to find THFs to dispel Akvan’s Spikes (that he doesn't use :eek:). That’s practically all I see are alliances of THFs just raping Akvan because Aurasteal is so strategically useful for that fight.:rolleyes:

Obligatory: Even if it weren't on a 5 minute timer, Temp item/weakness spam invalidates any arguement involving Aurasteal's "strategic value" in VW etc. Which is beside the point because pre-delve, you weren't getting invited and post-delve no one does VW.

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Having shock spikes on thf, is actually quite neat, though since you're a noob you probably don't even know how to AE cleave with a thf. Even though evasion is capped, shit DOES still hit you.

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Lol. You are so cute. It’s likely that I INVENTED AE cleaving on THF. You are welcome. And if you are using shock spikes you are doing it wrong. Ice Spikes is where it’s at. ;)

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I added that, because Soulflayers are immune to darkness, dispel.

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If only there were some other commonly used support job that had light based dispel? F*ck it. Lets go! THF ONRY Parties TO NNI!!!!

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I like how you neglected to quote all the valid points, and only the ones your opinion decided were not "good enough" to count.

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You didn’t make any valid points in any of that vomit. You are herp a derping all over this thread, throwing your little absurd atempts at insults at me ....ALL trying to argue the STRATEGIC VALUE of using Aurasteal when it has none.

Basically all you are saying is: “Hey, I are hear. Someone was stupid enough to invite my THF to soemthing...I guess I might as well press this handy dandy Aurasteal macro”


Lets be clear, that is NOT strategic value. No one is seeking out THF to remove undispellable buffs with Aurasteal because the JA is just not strategically useful for that purpose. It is USABLE with a macro…you just might feel good about yourself and steal some shock spikes and shout to your alliance “HAI GAIZ, I ARE SUPER ELECTRICK THIEF” but it will not be strategically valuable for the fight you are in.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

It's our new 2 1 hour ability. Though since SoA was released, it's been proven to be useless before it's even been released. RDMs can rejoice, our ability is now more useless than theirs!

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Sadly, your right, and I thought it was not possible. : /

Best use I have seen for Aurasteal is when a friend of mine stole the Regen effect of the Cactaur in Altepa A, it lasted for a few hours, long enough that he had 20 tick Regen for an entire Dyna run.

I really hope THF gets thrown a bone at some point. I used to love playing this job!

I don't know why they won't have aura steal as an independent JA, DRK gets absorb-attri and blue gets voracious trunk :-/

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Originally Posted by Deifact

I really hope THF gets thrown a bone at some point. I used to love playing this job!

I don't know why they won't have aura steal as an independent JA, DRK gets absorb-attri and blue gets voracious trunk :-/

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They are angry with the job. They fear RMT and the past.

THF will stay weak.

Steal/Despoil should let you steal Temp Items instead of random yarn or chips. Would be so much more useful if you had a 60-80% chance of stealing a Berserker's Tonic or a Healing Mist off a mob than some random ore or clump of grass.

Thing with Carabosse and Onvi abilities is that not only can THF steal 1 of their abilities every 5mins, but guess what...so can DRK. Difference is DRK can do it every minute, and using Nether void can steal an additional 2 buffs at the same time. So THF's 5min JA that can only steal 1 buff is OP, but DRK`s 1min recast spell that can steal 1-3 buffs is legit. And before anyone says "but spells can be resisted" Aura Steal isn't 100% either.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Steal/Despoil should let you steal Temp Items instead of random yarn or chips. Would be so much more useful if you had a 60-80% chance of stealing a Berserker's Tonic or a Healing Mist off a mob than some random ore or clump of grass.

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I really like this idea, it reminds me of thf in GW2 with temp items they can use! I feel like THF could be a much more versatile job if they made a few minor adjustments to some abilities. If Steal/Despoil stole temporary items instead, they could probably just use the same algorithm they use for temporary item chests but have it activate when the ability is used instead.

Oh well can dream on...

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Originally Posted by Calatilla

Thing with Carabosse and Onvi abilities is that not only can THF steal 1 of their abilities every 5mins, but guess what...so can DRK. Difference is DRK can do it every minute, and using Nether void can steal an additional 2 buffs at the same time. So THF's 5min JA that can only steal 1 buff is OP, but DRK`s 1min recast spell that can steal 1-3 buffs is legit. And before anyone says "but spells can be resisted" Aura Steal isn't 100% either.

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Aura Steal 5/5 on a mob that has no items to steal (everything in abyssea) with Augmented Assassin's Bonnet +2 is 100% guarantee to steal 2 buffs, from what I can tell. As long as there are 2 dispellable buffs up.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Aura Steal 5/5 on a mob that has no items to steal (everything in abyssea) with Augmented Assassin's Bonnet +2 is 100% guarantee to steal 2 buffs, from what I can tell. As long as there are 2 dispellable buffs up.

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The absorb rate is 100% but the success rate of the dispel is not. Several things start to resist Aurasteal (or just make it miss a lot more?) after multiple uses as well...which is wierd, because it's super duper awesome feature is that it's not subject to resistances.

So I'll admit right off the bat I don't know anything about the newer SoA content and how well Steal works (or doesn't as the case usually is) within it, but as far as Aura Steal goes the only problem I ever saw with it was it's recast timer. I always found Aura Steal to be pretty accurate and reliable (dispels about 95% of the time, actually steals the buff 80%), but with mobs being able to more or less spam their buffs it just ended up being pointless. Especially if the mob had multiple buffs or an item to steal. But if they just dropped Steal's recast to 1 minute or less, maybe via higher level trait so only Thief would get the lowered recast, Aura Steal would be a much more viable tool for thieves to use in battle.

Having Steal and Despoil be on separate timers is a nice start, but both abilities (heck all thief abilities) need to be severely overhauled. With Steal, and subsequently Aura Steal, a dramatically lowered recast time would more or less solve all it's problems. Even if you Aura Steal from a mob with an item, you can only steal an item once so every other attempt would go right to the removal of the buff. With Despoil though, it shouldn't be dependent on removing an item since, much like steal, you can only steal an item from a mob once iirc. Personally, I always felt it would be more in tune with Thief's playstyle (proper positioning in battle) if Despoil stole a stat (Att, Def, Eva) based on where the Thief stands in relation to the mob. Use Despoil from behind, you steal Def, use it from in front and you steal it's Eva etc.

As far as I'm concerned, Thief should be a class that works based on proper positioning and is best when it's weakening the mob while building up it's own big hits. Enmity control should just be a way for the Thief to ensure the mob isn't spinning like a top and is attacking the proper target, so it can drop it's big hits without gaining much of it's attention. All while keeping the mob in a slightly weakened state so it's smaller melee hits can do more damage. But then again, that's just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Ziero

Personally, I always felt it would be more in tune with Thief's playstyle (proper positioning in battle) if Despoil stole a stat (Att, Def, Eva) based on where the Thief stands in relation to the mob. Use Despoil from behind, you steal Def, use it from in front and you steal it's Eva etc.

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So when solo you could only steal the buff that you get from in front of the mob (unless using sleep bolts and fighting something not resistant to sleep) and when in a party, it's still random due to the mob moving around so much...

I always thought it would be nice if Steal actually stole useful things -- like Temp items. In old FF games you could steal Elixirs, Potions, Ethers. In this game you can basically only steal feathers, meat, fangs etc. For mobs you can't steal treasure from, like NMs, give them Temp items that you can steal from. Temporary Hi Potions/Dusty Wings/Stalwart's Tonics/Lethe Waters/Mana Powders etc. Give these universally to all mobs in the game, or just generate one for the THF when the roll is successful for a steal when a regular item couldnt be given. Something like 25% chance at an item, if that fails, then 40% chance at a temp item, if that fails, then the steal 'misses'. At the very least do this for 'Mug' since that ability is only useful against mobs which have Gil. That only includes NMs and Beastmen. Mug has no use in BCNMs and such. Let Mug 'steal' temp items from mobs without gil.