95 And Below RME Weapons

After reading the proposed adjustments and finding out that only the 99-iterations of RME's will be boosted to compete viably with the new Delve weapons, I must say I'm a little worried. These weapons take time to get and not everyone can take them to 99 (especially in the case of empyrean weapons). So if one has a level 85 or 90 empyrean, it's just gonna be the end of the line for us?

I wield an Almace-90 and I love the thing. I obviously don't expect the damage to receive a boost to equal to that which the 99-variants are receiving, but it would be very nice if it received at least some boost (making the Base Damage somewhere from 90~100 would be nice). Also, if weapons that are 95 and below are not to receive this boost, will there be plans to make it easier to upgrade them?

I disagree, it's the strongest tier weapon available for lv90 players still, it has no need to be enhanced. If you want it stronger, save your hmps and riftdross/cinder and upgrade the weapon.

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Originally Posted by Chimerawizard

I disagree, it's the strongest tier weapon available for lv90 players still, it has no need to be enhanced. If you want it stronger, save your hmps and riftdross/cinder and upgrade the weapon.

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Such a ridiculous response. So you think that, for example, Almace 95 being DMG:66 and Almace 99 being DMG:121 makes any kind of sense?

Nobody's asking for the max DMG on these starting @ lvl 85. Or even for it to scale in a linear fashion. But to say that 85-95 empys (and to a lesser extent, relics) shouldn't get any boost at all is just...well, ridiculous.

Edit: And because the original thread is closed I'll say this for myself here. The reason, at least for myself, in regards to 85-95 weapons, why I never commented on the thread saying to be sure those got boosted as well, is simply because it was such an asinine thought to consider they would make weapons jump to nearly double their base DMG in some cases from 95-99, so to me it was "obvious" they were considering boosting those all along.

I was telling people who asked me the same thing, don't worry, SE didn't say they're only boosting lvl 99 versions (after the first post with the 3 sword examples), because as far as the wording in that post, they didn't. They only gave examples.

Honestly, as far as it goes I care very little about my own involvement over 1 empyrean that probably won't ever be 99...it really is just for the sake of reason that I say the lower levels should at least scale up to some extent.

And as far as my own involvement goes, I sell a fair amount of HMP so I'd be glad for this development in terms of personal gain...but still disagree with it on the basis of principle.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

And as far as my own involvement goes, I sell a fair amount of HMP so I'd be glad for this development in terms of personal gain...but still disagree with it on the basis of principle.

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Hey, if they only boost 99, I'll be glad to take those heavy metal plates off your hands free of charge. Regardless, I agree. I think there needs to be some boosting considering that all these weapons are a time commitment and some are harder than others. Furthermore, as for the shields, I think there should be a block rate boost considering that block rate varies based on physical level.

Perhaps giving us scaling mechanisms that scale horizontally rather than vertically (as Trial of the Magians does) at each level. That way, everyone would get the chance to do some work for a damage and stat upgrade. I suppose when content levels become integrated onto gear, this could be balanced further by making the the equip level 99 after completing scaling with an equip level 90 weapon.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Such a ridiculous response. So you think that, for example, Almace 95 being DMG:66 and Almace 99 being DMG:121 makes any kind of sense?

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Well that's honesty a silly question too, does this make any sense?

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Its basically the same kind of upgrade, except they are both level 99, both look the same, both have very similar stats, same jobs, and come from the same new unique race of mobs. Its easy to see SE does not care about true balance any more in my opinion from this, because the only real way to make it not look stupid is to nerf the new stuff, which they will not do, so oh well. Unless they nerf the new weapons the game will have this insane jump in DMG at the end, that, or they have to go back through the entire game and rebalance every single thing to lead up to this point, which is stupid. So at this point I suggest you get used to the large gap, because as much as I hate the large gap in damage it seems like its here to stay.

Considering the difference in difficulty between the 2 mobs that drop those swords, yes it makes perfect sense.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Considering the difference in difficulty between the 2 mobs that drop those swords, yes it makes perfect sense.

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There is a large difference in difficulty between getting a 90 and 99 Almace as well, that is why not everyone has one, yourself included as you said yours is 90, am I wrong?

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

There is a large difference in difficulty between getting a 90 and 99 Almace as well, that is why not everyone has one, yourself included as you said yours is 90, am I wrong?

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So, let me spell this out...current system for lvl 85/90/95/99 Almace has DMG: 57/61/66/70.

SE says "ok we'll boost r/m/e"...but only @ 99. Post adjustment DMG: 57/61/66/121. Do you have any idea the price hike that will cause with riftcinders?

...and then you counter with "well a sword dropped by a mob with no time limit or participant limit that can be beaten by pickup groups full of scrubs is lower damage than the same model sword dropped by a mob in a zone with 18-person/45- minute limits where you also have to kill 2 other nms so that's the same thing"

Not the same comparison at all. How you can possibly fail to see that is just amazing.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

So, let me spell this out...current system for lvl 85/90/95/99 Almace has DMG: 57/61/66/70.

SE says "ok we'll boost r/m/e"...but only @ 99. Post adjustment DMG: 57/61/66/121. Do you have any idea the price hike that will cause with riftcinders?

...and then you counter with "well a sword dropped by a mob with no time limit or participant limit that can be beaten by pickup groups full of scrubs is lower damage than the same model sword dropped by a mob in a zone with 18-person/45- minute limits where you also have to kill 2 other nms so that's the same thing"

Not the same comparison at all. How you can possibly fail to see that is just amazing.

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You are talking about 2 levels of the same sword as I am comparing it to the same type of thing. So you think that Cinders will spike in price, ok, and? That's not fair? Its going to be one of the most powerful weapons in the game, they take some time and effort, making the 90 version more powerful will not change that, it will just make RMEs at level 90 even more important over any other weapon at level 90. Think about what you are asking for a second, you want a 90 Almace with what? 95 DMG? So what happens to every other sword in the game at and above that level with lower damage? Trashed. We have had to deal with RME only shouts for a long time with their differences in damage being enough to be noticed but not enough to completely ignore those without them, with the change you are asking for a level 90 Emp would tower over every other weapon in the game that is not a Delve weapon or RME, making that exclusion of players even more justified and making it all the more important for people to be forced into making these weapons. I know a lot of friends that have been excluded from content when they only had an OAT GA or PA, or only a STR path weapon, these people would be even worse off once a level 90 Emp has more than 50% DMG on top of the WS and its mod stats.

You are only looking at yourself, the prices of things, not taking into account how this would effect non-RME players one bit. Now before its said I would have no idea about any of this, or I say it because I never made one, I have Almace and Excalibur with a fake Ukon and tons of experience with jobs as well as an OAT GS, I know the reaction people give when you say you have no RME even in the case of the OAT GS which is better than a Caladbolg. What you are asking for will only make it all the more important to have those weapons, and will make it once again to the point they are the only weapons worth having, except now there are the Delve weapons to go along with them, so it is down to this, do Delve, make a RME, or do not do any of the content designed for 90+ players besides Abyssea, or make your own groups so you can not be forcibly excluded due to your weapon.

How people can fail to see how these types of changes will and have already effected non-RME or casual players is astounding, and insulting. Making them stronger by back tracking them through the earlier versions will only make the problem even worse. Right now you can not expect everyone to have a 99 RME, its unrealistic, but 90? 85? People have expected that of people for more than a year now, and by making those weapons stand out above every AH option, every other trial, the Coin weapons, and any other non-RME, non-Adoulin weapon, you are only making the problem worse for people.

I know what Matsui said, and I know what he plans to do, and I still contend they should simply nerf the new weapons to be in line, if you want to boost RMEs a bit more, do it, but unless they do something about every other weapon in the game the balance of the game was just massively upset and for now it looks like it is going to remain that way. If you do not like that RMEs under 99 are going to become much weaker, think of those people who made Fire trial weapons, OAT weapons, TP bonus weapons, spent thousands of kills in VW for Pulse weapons, all of those R/EX weapons like yours that are all now in the same exact position, you are not alone, and in fact, by trying to get your weapon boosted you are making all of their weapons even worse, because the average damage on a weapon expected of someone will rise significantly.

I spent an unusual amount of time getting a single item, and now I'm upset because I never finished it... because, even though I knew exactly what the item's stats were when I made it, I'm upset now because those who finished it got something new. I'm still perfectly capable of doing the exact same thing the others did to finish the item, but I don't want to. Therefore, I demand that you give me new things too, because that seems fair to me.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Well that's honesty a silly question too, does this make any sense?

I hate the large gap in damage it seems like its here to stay.

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Not if people speak up and kindly request that SE consider that people who don't have 99's will be left in the dust.

We had to have a large community uproar with many people quitting before they went back to reevaluate their plans on RME weapons, I doubt asking them nicely to help out those less fortunate players is going to work. Remember, Matsui thinks just because he asked we have hardcore EG players inviting casual lesser geared players, that they will actually do it, which is insane.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

We had to have a large community uproar with many people quitting before they went back to reevaluate their plans on RME weapons, I doubt asking them nicely to help out those less fortunate players is going to work. Remember, Matsui thinks just because he asked we have hardcore EG players inviting casual lesser geared players, that they will actually do it, which is insane.

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True, but can we both agree that non-99 weapons should get at least some boost? Even if it puts them out in the middle of no-man's land (neither top notch Delve weapons nor content level 99), I would still be grateful. I'll be building an Excalibur soon to rectify this problem (actually has more to do with me wanting to have all the reasonable weapons for the job I play exclusively).

I agree and disagree, my opinion is not that they should not change these weapons or anything like that, its that the new items should not have been added and the DMG balance should never have been upset in the first place. So while I agree they should give them a boost, I disagree that anything should get a boost at all, I think they should just get nerfed to reasonable levels.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

I think they should just get nerfed to reasonable levels.

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While you have a good point, the majority of playerbase doesn't take kindly to nerfing things. Sadly, that would be how you would fix this situation. I really think that more thought should have gone into the might of these weapons; however, a nerf will anger too many people. It's also likely that the devs want to help us combat the level differences of enemies in Adoulin. Then again, I already said that shielding and other defensive skills need fixing in another thread. It does come down to a matter of balance and can be fixed in a variety of ways.

I know I'll get flamed for this, but a nerf may be very well be in order. The reason being that Voidwatch weapons will also be obsoleted along with many other great pieces.

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Originally Posted by Sephiran

I know I'll get flamed for this, but a nerf may be very well be in order. The reason being that Voidwatch weapons will also be obsoleted along with many other great pieces.

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Exactly, I mean I agree, if they will do nothing to reverse this mistake then they should boost the other weapons, but in that case in all honesty I do not want them to boost just a few, but all of the weapons, which I know is unreasonable, but without boosting them all you are damning every weapon which is not boosted but takes any real amount of effort, to being worthless. So like I said, I agree they need boosted, but at the same time, I wish the new ones were just nerfed because it would have a more wide spread effect on repairing balance in this games weapons, either one solves the problem, just one only effects some weapons, and the other would fix them all, which is preferred. I think you seem to get my reasoning though so no real need to explain further, just want people to understand if they read all this why it is destructive that this change in DMG is allowed to remain.

Lv90 weapons have been garbage for quite some time; there is no need to change them. If players want to improve their damage, then do so before complaining.

Getting a Lv99 Empyrean, Relic or Mythic isn't terribly difficult, it just requires the effort you are squandering to complain.

the way i see it the effort / cost to upgrade from 95 to 99 is massive, so after spending 150 mil to get a relic we are also supposed to spend another 75 mil to get it from 95 to 99 so se can let us upgrade it to be an average weapon??? the way i see it se have made every weapon 95 or lower worthless

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Originally Posted by Riggs

The way i see it se have made every weapon 95 or lower worthless

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No matter what they do to any level of RME, that is going to be the case.

The way I see it. They wanted to make the game difficult without it being complete KILL IT BEFORE YOU DIE.
They added weapons that were off the charts so fights could still be done quickly on repeat but would take close to the max time to do it the first time. They added armor with insane DEF compared to previous equips and for some jobs, really nice stats.

I know this is probably unpopular, but it is kind of needed if they want to rejuvenate the game and not just continue giving sidegrades endlessly. (they should have forseen the problems their new weapons would cause and created a path for enhancement at the same time they released the new weapons)

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Originally Posted by Chimerawizard

rejuvenate the game

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They rejuvenated the game, and at the same time killed all of the content.

not what they actually did, what all this is supposed to do for the game from here on out.
SE does everything amazingly well until implimentation. then ... ya

i like the idea about boosting empyrean weapons a bit, honestly they were created to casual players, ppl can spend 1 or 2 hours farming and camping Nms for this but i think just the 90 version should get Boost, if ppl comparate Relic and empyrean weapons about currency quantity and prices and HMP and cinders, you will find out supply on HNM, dross and cinders arent too good as dynamis currency, even if you comparate aleandrites/HNMS you will find there is more supplies for alex, ppl do salvage more often now dynamis currency dropping on price, around 5 each on my server, alex are 11k, and if you find HNM, 80k-100k, cinders going up for 2m each atm and dross 500k, SE just need give more incentives to ppl about VWs, atm is just place where empyrean items upgrade come and VW is dead now.

Yes i like the idea about boosting lv 90 weapons but this could cause problems when trading HMP for stage 95 or dross/cinders when doing 99 on ToM.

It's like asking to buff lv75 relics because you're too lazy to make the next trials.
Empyrean 90 (not even talking about 85s) are easy to obtain and that's why most of the people stopped there but it is not a "finished" weapon. Don't blame SE if YOU didn't decide to finish your weapons completely.

PS: Most of the empyreans 85 already sucked at 99 before the release of Adoulin.

I'd just ask for a better way to get HMP's. VW is dead. Haven't seen a shout in a couple weeks.
Unlike a relic, where you can solo and low man most everything up to ADL, there is no way to get to 95 low manning an empyrean. I guess you could sell currency, but I suspect relic upgraders will stop when they see the delve weapons and time involved. So that market will likely crash soon too.

I need 3000 HMP's for my two main emps. And likely the currency market and others will die and the new expansion doesn't really have a huge cash market unless you count selling shards as a good way to make money lol.

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Originally Posted by Mirabelle

I'd just ask for a better way to get HMP's. VW is dead. Haven't seen a shout in a couple weeks.

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If SE upgraded the 90 versions of empys, VW would most certainly be dead. Not upgrading them is just about the only thing keeping VW alive right now.

In my opinion, the argument can be summed up with two statements and their outcomes.

Level 99 R/E/M holders: "I spent a significant amount of time creating a weapon. When I created it, I knew it would lie somewhere on a contiuum of weapon power - in my case, at the top. Delve weapons have made my weapon useless. I have therefore wasted my time. I would like this to be fixed."

Result: lv. 99 R/E/M proposed upgrades, which will require me to complete an as-of-yet unspecified task to restore my weapon to usefulness.

Lower level R/E/M holders: "I spent a significant amount of time creating a weapon. When I created it, I knew it would lie somewhere on a contiuum of weapon power - in my case, close to (but not at) the top. Delve weapons have made my weapon useless. I have therefore wasted my time. I would like this to be fixed."

Result: I must make a very significant expenditure of time and money before completing the same as-of-yet unspecified task to create a more powerful weapon. There is no option to restore my weapon to its old level of usefulness, which was my original requirement.

The compaints made by level 99 R/E/M holders can just as legitimately be made by those that hold lower tier weapons. No-one wants to lose the work they put into their weapons, which in all cases is significant - just to varying degrees. I think denying <lv99 weapon users the ability to restore their weapons to their original level of usefulness is simply unjustifiable. They made their <lv99 weapon knowing what they would get - something good, but not exceptional. SE has taken that away from them, and they have a right to want their weapon restored.

Weapon users with <lv99 weapons wouldn't get anything "free" from this adjustment - at least not anything more than lv99 weapon users will. They will still end up with an inferior weapon. However, they will end up with a weapon that is "as inferior" as they originally intended - which is the only reasonable outcome.

As for problems like "but level 80 players will have super-powerful weapons that outclass all others at level 80", just bash a latent effect for DMG on the weapon to activate at a more appropriate level. It's not difficult to find solutions to these issues.

It's amazing to me how many people feel like SE gave them a bait and switch. I run a Dynamis linkshell, and I've run it since way back in the old days. 2 days a week, every week for the past 6+ years, we gather up and work towards completing relic weapons for people. If one of my members complained that level 75 claustrum should be boosted to be competitive with the new staves, I would have to smack them and tell them "The game is moving on. :cool: Deal with it."

I honestly think its ridiculous that SE is going to update 99 RMEs even though I own a few myself and have helped in the creation of dozens more. It's little more than a tiny bit of appeasement to the players who have already quit. They're going to receive a one-time boost, then they're going to be left in the dust again. Asking for 75-95 weapons to be boosted is double-lazy. Too lazy to complete the original trials, too lazy to get new weapons from SoA.

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Originally Posted by Jerbob

In my opinion, the argument can be summed up with two statements and their outcomes.

Level 99 R/E/M holders: "I spent a significant amount of time creating a weapon. When I created it, I knew it would lie somewhere on a contiuum of weapon power - in my case, at the top. Delve weapons have made my weapon useless. I have therefore wasted my time. I would like this to be fixed."

Result: lv. 99 R/E/M proposed upgrades, which will require me to complete an as-of-yet unspecified task to restore my weapon to usefulness.

Lower level R/E/M holders: "I spent a significant amount of time creating a weapon. When I created it, I knew it would lie somewhere on a contiuum of weapon power - in my case, close to (but not at) the top. Delve weapons have made my weapon useless. I have therefore wasted my time. I would like this to be fixed."

Result: I must make a very significant expenditure of time and money before completing the same as-of-yet unspecified task to create a more powerful weapon. There is no option to restore my weapon to its old level of usefulness, which was my original requirement.

The compaints made by level 99 R/E/M holders can just as legitimately be made by those that hold lower tier weapons. No-one wants to lose the work they put into their weapons, which in all cases is significant - just to varying degrees. I think denying <lv99 weapon users the ability to restore their weapons to their original level of usefulness is simply unjustifiable. They made their <lv99 weapon knowing what they would get - something good, but not exceptional. SE has taken that away from them, and they have a right to want their weapon restored.

Weapon users with <lv99 weapons wouldn't get anything "free" from this adjustment - at least not anything more than lv99 weapon users will. They will still end up with an inferior weapon. However, they will end up with a weapon that is "as inferior" as they originally intended - which is the only reasonable outcome.

As for problems like "but level 80 players will have super-powerful weapons that outclass all others at level 80", just bash a latent effect for DMG on the weapon to activate at a more appropriate level. It's not difficult to find solutions to these issues.

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Your logic is horribly flawed. First off, 99REM holders will have to do some trial(s) to upgrade their 99s damage, they aren't just being handed a crapton of damage. 95 and below is an INCOMPLETE WEAPON. Finish your goddamned weapon then complain about it being bad. You don't build a bike without a chain then complain that bikes suck because yours doesn't go as fast as someone that put a f*cking chain on theirs.

Why shouldn't you have to do what I, and thousands of others, have done several times to be competitive with me/us?


Also saying it's stupid for SE to update REMs is the words of a true fool. REMs were offered as the cream of the crop and talk a lot longer to obtain than any typical weapon. In a game like FFXI there's supposed to by an effort to reward ratio. New adoulin weapons for the most part are easy as hell to obtain. The delve bosses are already being curb stomped by the complex formula of THROW MORE RANGERS AT IT GUYS.

Those weapons' effort values don't even warrant them being nearly as good as REM weapons. Each 75 relic made requires more man hours to make than any single delve boss drop, and 99ing a Relic takes more than twice that effort on my server. A 99 relic takes over 100% more effort to obtain than a delve weapon, and you think it's lazy to ask for an update to them? GTFO.

We're in vertical progression mode. If we want to drag our RMEs with us from now until the end of time, RMEs are going to require an update every time SE releases the next step up. If we do that, half of SE's development budget is going to be invested into making sure RMEs stay astride the new gear. We complain that updates lack compelling new content, and then we demand that they spend their resources on making sure nothing changes in the game. Doomcriers write their own self-fulfilling prophecy.

Please read my post fully before criticising it.

I mentioned and recognised (twice) that people would have to perform some sort of (as of yet unknown) trial to upgrade their weapons. I am fully aware that it's not just "free extra damage" or similar.

I never stated that I thought that the R/E/M holders' requests to bring their weapons up to "delve potency" were wrong - I do, in fact, agree with said requests and respect the effort people put into these weapons. I merely compared such requests to those made by incomplete weapon holders, who also don't wish for their weapon to become completely worthless. Had I requested that all R/E/M (regardless of level) be automatically upgraded to the same level, my logic would have been flawed. A broad upgrade to all levels of weapons resulting in a proportional increase in potency is, however, simply a reflection of the status quo - incomplete weapons are currently useful tools that are similar to, but do not rival, complete weapons. This would not change. Relative potency would remain as it is now.

Simply put, your weapon would remain better - as befits the extra effort you put into it. Incomplete weapons would remain just as inferior to yours as they are now. But they would still be usable, as befits the effort their owners put into making them. Whether that amount of effort is different to yours is immaterial, so long as the final potency of the item is relative.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

Asking for 75-95 weapons to be boosted is double-lazy. Too lazy to complete the original trials, too lazy to get new weapons from SoA.

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Spoken like a true close-minded idiot. Most people who made a level 90 empy or 95 relic but didn't take it further, have not done so because they simply don't have the time to invest into such a thing.

I'll get flamed for bringing this up, but the fact is it's true, plain and simple: People who have full-time jobs and families or friends that they like to spend time on can have significantly less time to put into upgrading their weapons. Sure, you'll come back with "if you don't have the time, then don't play an MMORPG" whilst completely failing to realise that many people are very happy with playing just a couple of days a week, or only a couple of hours a day.

Good for all those that don't work, don't socialise, or maybe just don't sleep. You can invest enough time to do salvage, dynamis and limbus every day, and spend the rest of your time farming plasm to make gil and complete a 99 empy or relic in a couple of weeks. Other people are content to be second best whilst still participate in events with friends that don't care if it takes a little longer to do than the most elite groups

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Originally Posted by Return1

Your logic is horribly flawed. First off, 99REM holders will have to do some trial(s) to upgrade their 99s damage, they aren't just being handed a crapton of damage. 95 and below is an INCOMPLETE WEAPON. Finish your goddamned weapon then complain about it being bad. You don't build a bike without a chain then complain that bikes suck because yours doesn't go as fast as someone that put a f*cking chain on theirs.

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See above.

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Originally Posted by Return1

Why shouldn't you have to do what I, and thousands of others, have done several times to be competitive with me/us?

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You obviously didn't read what he said:

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Originally Posted by Jerbob

When I created it, I knew it would lie somewhere on a continuum of weapon power - in my case, close to (but not at) the top.

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He's not asking to be competitive with you/them (unless you/them gear/play much worse than him), he's just asking to be closer, relative to the amount of work that he and others have put in.

It may be that the people with level 90 empys/95 relics are working towards making the 99 versions, but with the amount of time that they can put into doing so, it will take many months to reach 99. This means for them that their weapon that was 'acceptable' for most end-game content has all-of-a-sudden become (in some cases) out-classed by AH weapons, and completely outclassed by all of the new r/e weapons.

I can see it from both sides of the coin, but I think that enabling non-99 weapons to be upgraded would be shooting themselves in the foot, as if people can get a better weapon without doing the plates/rift/marrows, then they will - so noone will bother farming the items and the price will shoot right up, making people even less likely to want to upgrade.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

We're in vertical progression mode. If we want to drag our RMEs with us from now until the end of time, RMEs are going to require an update every time SE releases the next step up. If we do that, half of SE's development budget is going to be invested into making sure RMEs stay astride the new gear. We complain that updates lack compelling new content, and then we demand that they spend their resources on making sure nothing changes in the game. Doomcriers write their own self-fulfilling prophecy.

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your damn right we want our RME's to stay the best weapons, and we want more, reduce the cost to upgrade from 95 to 99 as and trial to increase the level of 99's is just not worth the 95 to 99 expense unless they are boosted to be the best weapons again

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

If we want to drag our RMEs with us from now until the end of time, RMEs are going to require an update every time SE releases the next step up.

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From the time 99 was released till Adoulin was released the RME99s were the top of the food chain, many pieces of content were added in that time, all of it required no change to RME99s, only when Adoulin was added and surpassed them not by a small bit but almost double their DMG did it become any sort of problem. I assure you if I went through all of school with great grades, attended collage, and got a job making half of the money someone who dropped out of High School was making, I would be fairly pissed, and that is basically what not changing the weapons would have been like, someone put a ton of time and effort into their work only to get stuck with half of the reward someone else was going to get from doing not anywhere near the same amount of work, and even if you could obtain the same, its still throwing out all of that work you did previously.

Its not really right to say that they have to update RME99s every time a new update is out, simply do not add weapons with double the damage of everything else in the entire game and things will be fine, once stupid things like that are done there will always, always, always be problems...

If you follow the logic of "The power of a weapon should reflect the amount of effort it requires to obtain said weapon" and you wish to create vertical progression, you have 4 primary options:

1. Abandon the old return on investment curve, wipe the slate clean and start again (what they're attempting to do).

2. Make new weapons abide by the current return on investment curve so delve weapons require billions of plasm before they're stronger than 99 RMEs.

3. Drag RMEs along for the ride and give the RMEs an update every time the next level of gear is released.

4. Revise the old return on investment curve so 99 RMEs are significantly easier to obtain.


Option 3 seems to be what most RME holders (even the level 80 RME holders now, seemingly) are asking for. But forcing the dev team to keep this anchor tied around them will slow down all other content from being released and keep the game from changing much at all.

Now this is all assuming that we're sold on vertical progression at all, which appears to be what most people are actually taking issue with.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

3. Drag RMEs along for the ride and give the RMEs an update every time the next level of gear is released.

Option 3 seems to be what most RME holders (even the level 80 RME holders now, seemingly) are asking for. But forcing the dev team to keep this anchor tied around them will slow down all other content from being released and keep the game from changing much at all.

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Really? I just explained, we had a long time period where RME99s were fine, it was only when they decided it was a good idea to double the DMG on weapons that a problem was created. You say they have to updated them every time a new level of gear is released, its not quite accurate, its when new levels of weapons are released, and only when they are so vastly superior to what we currently have, that it becomes a problem. Skirmish weapons had a few out matching Relics, not all, but some with +2 stones were doing the job, were people in an uproar then? Not really, some complained, but it was only a few here and there by compare, the weapons were ok. Delve made the Skirmish update look like nothing, the gap between weapons expanded exponentially and there was of course an uproar because everything in the game including the Skirmish gear was instantly outclassed, not by a bit, or by an acceptable amount, but rather by large amount that is so large it completely crushes any other options. Skirmish weapons were ok even with their higher DMG because RMEs have more than simply DMG going for them, more than that which makes them special, but Delve weapons can disregard that as well because their DMG is that overwhelming.

You make it sound as though updating the RME99s is going to be a constant chore that happens with every other update, that could be true, if they make weapons jump in power again and again each update. If they do that, I doubt people will continue to play this game, it would be the stupidest choice they could make right now, so I doubt they would do that, instead they will improve gear, we will get new weapons with the other Delve areas as they are released as well as the other Fractures, WK Reives, and so on. The update is probably the last one or second to last one that RMEs will ever see, which is good, they should stay where they are after this next update, but only so long as SE does not choose to throw balance out the window and go crazy with numbers once again.

A large majority hate vertical progression because it goes against why we like FFXI. If we wanted vertical progression on this scale we would be playing WOW. If we wanted the slate wiped clean every couple months, we'd play a Diablo ladder.

Also vertical progression like this KILLS all the old content. You really think that it's a good idea to obsolete thousands of hours of content so you can participate in the few hours/weeks worth of content they release each patch? It's stupid.

Extending REM life adds more viable content to do than just Delve.

And it really shouldn't take much more than one guy in a basement to upgrade the REMs. Add some ACC/ATK, and bring the base DMG up to par, congratulations you've f*cking succeeded.

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He's not asking to be competitive with you/them (unless you/them gear/play much worse than him), he's just asking to be closer, relative to the amount of work that he and others have put in.

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You want gear relative to the amount of work? You already have it. A 95Relic or 85-90 Empyrean weapon is literally less than or equal to half the work of 99'ing it.

Half the work, half the weapon. It's pretty fitting.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Equipment strength is dependent on the level of the content you need to challenge in order to obtain the equipment, not the level in which it can be equipped. With the gear that is released in Adoulin from here on out, they can be equipped at level 99; however, instead of considering these to be level 99 pieces of equipment, it would be better for you to think of their level in terms of the content level (for example, level 110 or level 120).

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So, could we just assume that the boost added to RME is based on it being made for content level 120?
And that a lvl 75 RME was made for level 75 content?
and that a lvl 90/95 RME was designed for level 90/95 content?

Still have issues, keep crying.

It's not like they downgraded the weapons, they just made new ones that outclassed the old ones. They did this before with abyssea adding weapons that totally outclassed what was then the best of the best, Relic weapons. Trials were added at the same time (forethought) to RM to make sure they would always be relevent and at the top tier of weapons, and easily obtainable weapons would outclass a 'base' lv75 finished RM.

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Originally Posted by Return1

You want gear relative to the amount of work? You already have it. A 95Relic or 85-90 Empyrean weapon is literally less than or equal to half the work of 99'ing it.

Half the work, half the weapon. It's pretty fitting.

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Farming the NMs to get to level 90 empy is about 99% of the time it takes to get your weapon to 99 if you can afford to buy all your plates and rift. I'm not saying they should be 99% of the weapon, but if a level 85 empy was given an extra 10% damage, level 90 20%, 95 30% and 99 40% to their current values, I think everyone would be happy.

Let's take Caladbolg as an example:

85= 112 > 123
90= 120 > 142
95= 132 > 171
99= 142 > 198

Compared to Bereaver= 209 dmg

As you'll see, in this proposition, level 90 would become the equivalent of what level 99 currently is; and that's in no way ground-breaking, or people wouldn't be complaining that their 99s are already no good.

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Originally Posted by Return1

You want gear relative to the amount of work? You already have it. A 95Relic or 85-90 Empyrean weapon is literally less than or equal to half the work of 99'ing it.

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For Emps I may agree, for Relics, not even close... Half the work? Lets go by old standard prices, meaning pre-Adoulin, AC was at around 7k average on Phoenix, now each Relic needs about 18k AC to complete it. With that math a Relic was nearly 125 Million gil, on the other hand look at Marrows, they were at roughly 15 Mil each, so 5 of them would be a total of around 75 Million gil. So really by making a Relic you are doing almost 2/3rds of the work, now when you factor in the WS kill trials which take hours to do and are painfully slow, I am sure we can all agree that getting a 95 Relic is at very least 2/3rds of the work. So 2/3rds of the work deserve 2/3rds of the power right? Seems to me that means they would need at least some form of boost top get that high.