Job Adjustments for the Next Version Update

Greetings!

Below is a comment from Producer Akihiko Matsui in regards to adjustments to take place in the next version update.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akihiko_Matsui

In the next version update we will be making the job adjustments outlined below.

There are still aspects that have not been finalized, but please look it over as an outline of things to come. Once I have more concrete details I will be sure to share them with you all.

• Elemental magic adjustments
  We will be making the adjustments outlined here.
  
  
• One-handed weapon status modifier adjustments
  During the version update on March 27th, we performed adjustments so that "The maximum amount of damage dealt based upon the attack-to-defense ratio is now the same for both one-handed and two-handed weapons." As a next step to this, we will be adjusting the way in which status modifiers are applied.
  
  
• Pet job adjustments
  As long as characters are not increasing in level (fundamentally), pet job levels as well will not increase, so we are making it possible to further enhance pets through the equipment players wear. Below are the different plans we have for each of the pet jobs:
  
  • Beastmaster
    Addition of new familiar pets
    
    
  • Dragoon
    Addition of polearms that have stats to increase the parameters of wyverns.
    
    
  • Summoner
    Addition of grips that have stats to increase the parameters of avatars.
    
    
  • Puppetmaster
    Addition of animators that have stats to increase the parameters of automatons.
  
  
• Geomancer and rune fencer adjustments
  Addition of artifact equipment, merit points, and limit break quests.

---

That's a very very bad idea.
You can't force jobs to equip certain items to receive marginal boosts to their pets. What if Dragoons what to use another better Polearm? What if SMNs want to use another different grip?
What if BSTs want to use another pet and boost that instead of using one of the new ones?

Guess this doesn't apply to PUP since Animator is an unique equipment that they're forced to equip anyway.


In my opinion the only possible way to have a fair and balanced improvement of pets conditions is to have what we could call SCALING. Which is exactely the same as pet jobs are handled in 99% of the other MMOs.
You can't have the scaling be too big in a game like FFXI of course, it should be small, a small additional bonus that is calculated according to the master stats.
This way the stronger the stats of the master, the stronger the bonus the pets will receive.
Of course this bonus has to be small, so that "Pet: ..." gear will still be interesting to some extent, at least in certain slots, but that's where trial&error and a good balancement shows.
Imho it's the only possible solution, otherwise you'll be forced to develop more and more and more gear with every patch.

I mean... I like additional "Pet: ..." gear, I LOVE it, but you can't build the balancement of pet jobs around that. It should be a nice specific option, not the "key" to the balance of pet jobs.

Sooooooooo, RUN/GEO jobemotes? Y/Y?

I mean, this is crucial!!!

Quote:

---

Puppetmaster
Addition of animators that have stats to increase the parameters of automatons.

---

We already have an animator that gives +70 to all automaton stats- please take your adjustments in a different direction, thanks! Gear in *other slots* that gives haste to both master and pet would go a long way to closing the remaining power gap between PUP and other DDs.

Quote:

---

Summoner
Addition of grips that have stats to increase the parameters of avatars.

---

Nice and all, but it doesn't address one single fundamental issue summoner has right now- most of which are not really stat-related at all.

Quote:

---

Dragoon
Addition of polearms that have stats to increase the parameters of wyverns.

---

most DRG use their wyvern as a support tool. I doubt any weapon you could create will buff the wyvern enough for anyone to care.

Quote:

---

Geomancer and rune fencer adjustments
Addition of artifact equipment, merit points, and limit break quests.

---

How about nerfing the ridiculous MP costs and casting times of geocolure spells? If you're not able to convince your party to pull monsters into your aura radius, you end up constantly having to cast and recast your luopoan in different locations, and this both burns your MP like fire burns gasoline and wastes your time since they take so long to cast.

Quote:

---

As long as characters are not increasing in level (fundamentally), pet job levels as well will not increase ...

---

Camate, can you please explain to the dev team how fundamentally flawed their logic is here? Yes, we won't be increasing in level, but with the massive power jump in gear recently, we sure will be getting a lot stronger. Pardon my language here, but with a DMG:150 staff available, you'd need to release some pretty *#&^$ amazing grips to make up for the difference in player vs pet stats. I mean, I can cast a cure or two or take 2-3 swings from a DMG:93 staff and pull hate from the pet doing like 1500 damage, so giving me an even better weapon means the gap that the pet would have to make up is even more massive.

Pets need a NATURAL POWER INCREASE- not gear-based stat boosts. Summoners and Puppetmasters both need ABILITY ajustments to reduce the job ability delay burden and line up their pets ability to do damage with the current pace of battle in the game (e.g. cut BP timer and BP delay- items at least in half)

Honestly, I know people think I'm a white knight for SE all the time, but as a big fan of the game's pet jobs, I certainly have a lot to be frustrated about here, so I hope people agree with this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akihiko_Matsui

Geomancer and rune fencer adjustments
Addition of artifact equipment, merit points, and limit break quests.

---

It is....it is so beautiful...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Pardon my language here, but with a DMG:150 staff available, you'd need to release some pretty *#&^$ amazing grips to make up for the difference in player vs pet stats. I mean, I can cast a cure or two or take 2-3 swings from a DMG:93 staff and pull hate from the pet doing like 1500 damage, so giving me an even better weapon means the gap that the pet would have to make up is even more massive.

---

Well Tahn... You and I are in full agreement here. These grips better be mini-R/E/Ms for avatars in their own right so to speak. I am very dissapointed and hope this isn't the extent of their "adjustments" for smn.

Are there any plans to address the fact that blue magic is so anemic that it now has the same or less base damage than a Dagger while simultaneously not being able to go above 1.0 ratio on most targets?

Not even going to mention magical ones, those are just a joke from the Dev Team I feel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prothscar

Are there any plans to address the fact that blue magic is so anemic that it now has the same or less base damage than a Dagger while simultaneously not being able to go above 1.0 ratio on most targets?

Not even going to mention magical ones, those are just a joke from the Dev Team I feel.

---

I've also wanted to ask in addition that for the Dev team regarding if will we be learning any new blue magic spells soon?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

Geomancer and rune fencer adjustments
Addition of artifact equipment, merit points, and limit break quests.

---

Excellent, thanks! This is what I hoping for the most.

I think polearms for buffing/enhancing the wyvern is alright, but I have a better suggestion.

Suppose there is a way to create "Collars" for wyverns that can be equipped in the DRG ammo or ranged slots. These collars could have different effects to use on the wyvern, while keeping DRG from having to give up DPS in the weapon slot.

...or depending on difficulty implementing it...how about making the Wyvern function similar to an Automaton so that you can equip items to him much like attachments? Say up to 3-4 "attachments" for the wyvern would grant the boost to wyvern power that DRG has always requested.

I've always felt the lack of interactivity with your wyvern is a drawback. It doesn't have to be gamebreaking stuff to enhance them, but maybe just cure potency + items or items to make Haste Breath? I dunno. Anything other than require polearms.

While I greatly appreciate any efforts made into improving the gear selection available for pet jobs, seeing as we are so woefully under-represented in the currently used equipment, the implication that these changes are going to somehow "fix" us really, really worries me. As has already been said here, pets need to be enhanced intrinsically before they will be even remotely effective. Equipment is not the way forward in this regard; proper pet-related gear should merely be part of the standard progression that pet jobs should enjoy as any other job does.

Unless the grips for summoners are obscenely powerful, they will do nothing to balance out the hilarious ineffectiveness of avatars, and quite frankly I don't have the inventory space to sacrifice for something that should just be built into the avatar in the first place. Please take on board the overwhelming sentiment among the playerbase that pets need to be fixed first before the (admittedly welcome) idea of adding more pet gear is even considered. Yes, it will probably take a bit more work, but an overhaul is needed. I can't emphasise this enough. Things are more broken than a grip can fix.

I am, however, very much looking forward to the Elemental Magic adjustment. I hope that it helps to make magical damage more competitive and effective.

Quote:

---

Summoner
Addition of grips that have stats to increase the parameters of avatars.

---

Will it compare to this? If not, go back to the drawing board.

Seriously, Equipment is not the thing holding Summoner back. They are, in a nutshell;

• Global Blood Pact timer that caps at 45 seconds
• Pathetic melee damage, which we can hardly enhance (only though Pet:Haste and Pet:Critical hit gear)

I hardly see the grips they mention having Blood Pact delay that bypasses the cap.

Quote:

---

Beastmaster
Addition of new familiar pets

---

This is exciting, but it needs to be implemented in such a way that requires effort to get. I don't want to see newly-99 BSTs buy these new jug pets off the auction house and suddenly be on par with other players who have put far more effort toward improving their jobs. Please consider making these new jugs rare/ex drops from new content bosses with rechargeable uses.

Quote:

---

Dragoon
Addition of polearms that have stats to increase the parameters of wyverns.

---

I feel like there must be a better way to improve wyverns. Dragoon is far more focused on the player's damage than it is on the wyvern's, so very few Dragoons will opt to use new polearms just for the sake of improving their wyvern unless the new weapon is also an improvement over their current weapon's damage.

I think the "Hurch'lan Sash" is a good example of a better adjustment-- for PUP and BST, it is comparable to the best other options for the player, but better because it just happens to also improve their pets.

I'd instead like to see something like Ganesha's Mala (a powerful item, yet not R/M/E/C/Delve, used for both getting TP and using weaponskills, so it's seldom if ever unequipped) that ALSO has "Increases wyverns parameters" written on it. Make it a drop from new content and then problem solved, you made the effort to get a stronger wyvern and you yourself got a little stronger too!

Quote:

---

Summoner
Addition of grips that have stats to increase the parameters of avatars.

---

Although this is less of a problem than forcing you to equip a main weapon (such as the suggested dragoon adjustment) I again feel that it needs to have stats that augment the player as well. Given that grips are typically minor bonuses, I think this could be easily achieved by also adding something relevant to the player, maybe such as enmity down, and/or perpetuation cost down?

Quote:

---

Puppetmaster
Addition of animators that have stats to increase the parameters of automatons.

---

Hasn't this already happened with the addition of the Alternator? As an avid Puppetmaster fan, I'm both terrified and thrilled by the notion of getting more animators of similar or even greater caliber. Since animators are essential to playing Puppetmaster anyway, this is the adjustment I can actually agree upon. Still, I think more can be done.

Keeping in line with my theme of "make it drop from new content," I would like to see new rare/ex items that can be redeemed for new and improved puppet frames and heads. Similar to the old addition of the Spiritreaver and Soulsoother heads, these new options could simply be reskins of existing models. I think it would be awesome to delve into fractures alongside my VISUALLY NOTABLY improved, bestest robot buddy Nadeshiko! Camouflage themed Sharpshot, an even shinier Valoredge, and more ornate Stormwakers! Please make it happen! :D

In short, if you're going to make these improvements come through gear, then please ensure that they are good for the PLAYER too, not just their pet!

I can also imagine another alternative though... and that is, don't make the improvements require gear at all! Perhaps there could be key items that permanently improve pets so long as you're on the respective main job?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Prothscar

Are there any plans to address the fact that blue magic is so anemic that it now has the same or less base damage than a Dagger while simultaneously not being able to go above 1.0 ratio on most targets?

Not even going to mention magical ones, those are just a joke from the Dev Team I feel.

---

If they keep adding these sick 1 hnd weapons any spell casting is just a huge dps loss at this rate. Welcome to the drks world....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kojo

It is....it is so beautiful...

---

I'm preparing to be disappointed, I'm still skeptical of SE's ability to make GEO and RUN relevant for endgame of course.

With all of my love for GEO, if we can't expand our enhancing Geomancy beyond two spells as well as a single party, i'm not sure where else it would even be useful other than a mage party buffer and as an occasional debuffer. We're not really seeing a trend in All-Mage Parties anytime soon, and all the complaining about the Sphere animations already giving GEO enough scorn. :(

RUN is kind of a lost cause for stuff like Delve, since just about all the NMs deal mostly physical damage with tons of TP moves to go on. Maybe defense against debuffs, but that's kind of a stretch to allow them a spot at all. They would need a stance like Issekigan that parries like crazy, or an Empyrean Great Sword on par with Ochain's block rate to make RUN sufficient. Which is why I fear the only way RUN would be useful at all is if they have to build their Mythic Weapon to even qualify for endgame. I thought those days were over :\

For Geomancer I'd like to post a thread on suggestions to improve GEO for endgame use, but I also want to be able to translate it into Japanese for the JP forums so that it reaches out further.

Quote:

---

Seriously, Equipment is not the thing holding Summoner back. They are, in a nutshell;

• Global Blood Pact timer that caps at 45 seconds

---

The game is much faster paced than when SMN was created with the 60 second timer. My proposal would be to set the BP timer to 30 seconds, reduce-able to 15~20 seconds, and decrease the amount of BP delay - on each item that has more than 1 second for balance.

The perfect solution would be to change the new SMN SP ability and remove the BP timers entirely allowing SMN to use their MP as fast or as slow as they want.

Quote:

---

I'm preparing to be disappointed, I'm still skeptical of SE's ability to make GEO and RUN relevant for endgame of course.

---

I can't speak too much for RUN but GEO is already relevant for endgame. Continuously reapplied and unresistable debuffs are very powerful for endgame- especially when some of the NMs are immune or highly resistant to almost every normal debuff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I can't speak too much for RUN but GEO is already relevant for endgame. Continuously reapplied and unresistable debuffs are very powerful for endgame- especially when some of the NMs are immune or highly resistant to almost every normal debuff.

---

Debuffs will take you so far as up to a spot in the mage party for alliances though. Not once have I currently seen a GEO for anything like Delve, and Reives I don't get invites on for them. I would go GEO if there was anything to use them against, once i've set up the proper gear sets for it. But, DRK is usually my strongest job to take to high-content events (not that I mind DRK either, I love both jobs).

So in the issue of being able to provide for the party, what if you need a COR, for example, but can't find one? Why shouldn't a GEO be the perfect candidate as an alternate solution, if not just as good as COR, considering their mechanics are just as similar? The only thing GEO can't do is swap parties and keep Geomancy buffs on each party. Even if GEO's only specialty is unresisted debuffs...well, look at where RDM is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

Addition of new familiar pets

---

I wonder if this is referring specifically to something that will be summoned up with the "Familiar" SP somehow, or just using that as a general term for Beastmaster pets. I'm guessing the latter.

...

Also, I hope one is named Pokey Pete.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpankWustler

I wonder if this is referring specifically to something that will be summoned up with the "Familiar" SP somehow, or just using that as a general term for Beastmaster pets. I'm guessing the latter.

...

Also, I hope one is named Pokey Pete.

---

And a Chapuli pet named Jumping Jackson, kthx

Seriously though, Chapuli look like something out of Guyver :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akihiko_Matsui

Elemental magic adjustments
We will be making the adjustments outlined here.

---

From what I recall, and after skimming that over, that won't change anything at all in regards to magical damage not keeping up with new weapons, it just lets the earlier elemental nukes compete better with the later level ones.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akihiko_Matsui

One-handed weapon status modifier adjustments
During the version update on March 27th, we performed adjustments so that "The maximum amount of damage dealt based upon the attack-to-defense ratio is now the same for both one-handed and two-handed weapons." As a next step to this, we will be adjusting the way in which status modifiers are applied.

---

I'm assuming you mean adjusting the str:atk and dex:acc ratios for 1h weapons (presently 2:1 for both) to either match 2h weapons' 4:3 ratios, or to be a bit closer? That's definitely a start, though whether or not it ends up not being enough (due to the huge difference in base damage, and the lack of reasonable offhand choices to match up with the new weapons), or ends up being too much (once said reasonable offhand choices become available) and throws us back to the era where 2h weapons simply could not keep up with 1h weapons at all... We'll have to wait and see.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akihiko_Matsui

Pet job adjustments
As long as characters are not increasing in level (fundamentally), pet job levels as well will not increase, so we are making it possible to further enhance pets through the equipment players wear. Below are the different plans we have for each of the pet jobs:

---

That is absolutely the worst possible way you could go about this. It's one thing for smns, whose gear has always focused on the pet, but for the other pet jobs, forcing them to wear gear that lets their pet be at all useful will also mean the player doesn't get to use that slot for their own benefit.

Whenever you guys suggested fixing the automaton's AI by giving us a new attachment, I yelled at you. This is the exact same issue. We should not have to find a piece of gear, or make some sort of sacrifice on our part, in order to fix something that is fundamentally wrong with our job, whether it be poorly designed or poorly thought out. Forcing the players to fix the fact that pets in FFXI simply are not well designed and are held back by poor foresight on the hands of the dev team is incredibly lazy on your parts. You're offering us a used band-aid as the solution to a problem that clearly needs surgery.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akihiko_Matsui

Beastmaster
Addition of new familiar pets

---

As a chef who will be able to profit off of these new jugs, I'm happy, but as a player who understand that this doesn't solve the problem, I'm disappointed. Also, for the love of all things holy, do not give any of them ingredients like ^$@#ing ziz meat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akihiko_Matsui

Dragoon
Addition of polearms that have stats to increase the parameters of wyverns.

---

Are said polearms going to be at all competitive with standard DD weapons? No? I thought not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akihiko_Matsui

Summoner
Addition of grips that have stats to increase the parameters of avatars.

---

Because smn needs MORE gear to make their avatars do what they should be able to do innately?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akihiko_Matsui

Puppetmaster
Addition of animators that have stats to increase the parameters of automatons.

---

While it is nice to see animators that will actually have a damn use other than allowing us to use maneuvers at the cost of our ammo slot, I'd like to point out that you're essentially owning up to the fact that presently, animators (save alternator) do a fat lot of nothing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akihiko_Matsui

Geomancer and rune fencer adjustments
Addition of artifact equipment, merit points, and limit break quests.

---

This, however, is pleasant news. Will you also be buffing the jobs a bit more and fixing their other major issues, such as run's glass jaw, or geo's low power buffs?

what about Corsair new rolls a Rune Fencer's roll and Geomancer's Roll?

if they do go forward with grips for avatars...please, please, please do NOT bind them to elemental affinity like you did with the elemental grips. ONE grip that affects ALL avatars please....not 8 @#$@#$ grips that have to be swapped to match the pet's affinity.

Just the same though, like others here, I think the focus should still be on directly adjusting the pets FIRST. Adding gears to tweak them further could be a SECOND option--but only work on and add those AFTER fixing the pets native attributes first (or at least have player stats influence them somehow...be that a factor of skill or something like INT--however it's done, they need innate tweaks first and foremost).

if you couldn't read the long posts on the first page... really, pets just need to be innately better at higher levels rather than compensating for their inferiority with macro gear. At low levels, pet jobs are very strong in general but as you reach the new levels the master very quickly outstrips the pet in power- and this is true of all pet jobs, including SMN. the pet should be able to keep up to some degree without having to use special gear.

At a bare minimum, if SE intends to solve this problem with gear, said gear needs to include stats for the master as well, otherwise it wont be worth using because you're just trading your power for the pet's power, and not getting stronger as a whole.

I didn't see anything in there to address pet's current hate issues. seriously, we REALLY need that fixed. I can't-well won't-gear to melee with my pet at SoA levels without a fix to my pet being able to hold hate on bst. The damage output needs to be fixed as well. Throughout the decade I've mained beast my pet has been able to consistently "tank" unless I geared myself "balls to the wall" to outdamage it, just not the case now. And I don't think gear is the way to address it. A 99 jug should hit as well as a 99 natural critter, they don't. I mean seriously, there are only 2 reasons to use a jug when you can charm that are non-situational: a. to use a pet with a certain trait when not available from the ambient pets and b. to control it's use of TP abilities. Just giving us new jugs doesn't solve those issues when the pet is still going to be understrength.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkdragongers

what about Corsair new rolls a Rune Fencer's roll and Geomancer's Roll?

---

Rune Fencer's roll I would predict to be Magic Evasion Bonus (makes sense right?), and Geomancer's Roll...either probably Magic Crit Hit Bonus or Elemental Celerity+%

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Camate

Puppetmaster
Addition of animators that have stats to increase the parameters of automatons.

---

Such animators would have to compete with the (literal) godslayer of animators: the Alternator. Unless they are meant for lower levels, any new animators would have grant stats not found on the Alternator and with sufficient power.
Equipment for the Sub and Ammo slots might be a better suggestion. Grips that only work with H2H, or new kinds of oils to use with the Repair ability. Or perhaps even a non-consumable type of Animator Ammo that grants automaton stats as long as it's equipped.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Glamdring

I didn't see anything in there to address pet's current hate issues. seriously, we REALLY need that fixed. I can't-well won't-gear to melee with my pet at SoA levels without a fix to my pet being able to hold hate on bst. The damage output needs to be fixed as well. Throughout the decade I've mained beast my pet has been able to consistently "tank" unless I geared myself "balls to the wall" to outdamage it, just not the case now. And I don't think gear is the way to address it. A 99 jug should hit as well as a 99 natural critter, they don't. I mean seriously, there are only 2 reasons to use a jug when you can charm that are non-situational: a. to use a pet with a certain trait when not available from the ambient pets and b. to control it's use of TP abilities. Just giving us new jugs doesn't solve those issues when the pet is still going to be understrength.

---

That has always been the case for me. Either wait 15-20 seconds before I start to fight & do NOT weapon skill til I know said WS will kill it, or plan on tanking most of the fight. Was true at level 30-75: abyssea with jug pets after that. Yay snarl!

I fear this method of 'fixing' pet jobs for the same reason as all other posts...pets need to scale in some way with master's stats. Why does summoner from the get go have gear with lots of int and mind and lots of chr down?...getting off topic

Theytak's post x1,000,000!

EDIT: What is the formula that will govern magic damage from here on out? Be as detailed as possible.

Camate,
1- Could you give us more info about grips for summoner?
2- Is SE working to fix summoner job or only grips?
3- When will we get new avatars and new special JA?

Ok, I think the best way to do this is to get people who truly understand the core mechanics of the pet jobs to explain to the devs slowly and clearly what is wrong with said job, and how best to fix it. Thus, I have no place to speak for bst, smn, or drg, but pup? I live and breathe pup. That said, I can tell you right now that "we'll give you new gear that fixes it" is not the correct answer for any of the pet jobs.

So, as an example, let's look at pup.

Pup has come a long way from the completely unfinished job it was when it was released. It's strong in various areas, and in certain respects, it does have advantages over the other jobs. However, these advantages rarely ever come into play, because of the content the dev team has decided to focus on. Essentially, pup has four major problem areas: the devs, the other players, job abilities, and the automaton. Please note that equipment is not included. Our equipment issues are relatively minor these days, so they're not worth talking about atm.

Basically, what it works out to is that the dev team's understanding of what they think pup should be, what the players want pup to be , and what pup actually is are three very different things.

Now, let's look at these major problems in detail.

The Devs:

It's pretty clear from the way the puppet is designed, as well as pup's gear selection, that the devs seemed to intend for it to be a sort of hybrid job that can adjust to fill different party roles as the situation demands. Need someone to melee? Pup can melee. Need some magic damage? Pup can nuke. Need someone to heal the party? Pup can do that too. Pup is incredibly self-sufficient in design, and that has allowed it to become the soloing powerhouse it is today, but there is a major issue here:

Pup, by design, cannot fulfill any of the roles it's designed for as well as the other jobs focused on those roles. At a basic level, that makes sense, because if pup could nuke as well as a blm, melee as well as a mnk, and heal as well as whm, it would be incredibly OP. However, the issue is the scale of the difference.

To play any of pup's potential roles well, the player needs to be a lot more intelligent and aware of the job and its mechanics than other jobs, and even if they manage to achieve the best the job can hope for in a given role, it's not even remotely as helpful as another job designed solely for that role.

Basically, pup was designed with intentional limiters to keep it from overshadowing the jobs it can mimic, which is absolutely fine, but these limiters are far, far too effective, and thus leave pup as "Not even worth considering" in the eyes of most players. This leads in to our next issue.

The Other Players:

The fundamental flaw with SE's "Give the players a half finished job and see what they use it for" is that the players never forget that job's half-finished state, and it becomes stuck with that stigma for years. Pup, Dnc, Sch, and for a long time Blu and Cor all suffered from this, and though things have eased up some for blus and cors, pups, dncs, and schs are still feeiling the effects of ther initial horrible releases.

On top of that, SE still doesn't seem to grasp their players. Almost all FFXI players min/max to a noticeable degree, and they do so religiously, even if they don't realize it. If a job combination has been deemed useless by the playerbase, that job combination is not done, end of story. Anyone that does it, is laughed at and excluded. If one method of play is more efficient than another, the less efficient of the two falls out of favor and is left to rot by the players. SE doesn't get this.

Pup was designed to function in an old style of play, specifically the 6-man exp parties and lowman events where not having a certain role filled could completely screw you over. However, the very expansion that introduced pup also hammered the final nail in that play style's coffin, and buried it in favor of DDx4+BRD+healer steamrolling through everything, which favored efficiency, and the better a DD performed, the more likely they were to succeed. Pup does not shine in such events...

...yet that's the sort of event that all endgame has effectively become. Every new endgame event released quickly devolves into some variation of the same old "Buff the DDs to all hell and just let them murder the thing before it murders us." tactic, because SE refuses to, or simply can't, design events where such a tactic will result in failure absolutely 100% of the time. Because of this, how well a job performs in this one particular scenario is the only measure by which the players use to gauge a jobs worth anymore. Why is it that pup can't perform well in these scenarios? Well, that leads us to our other two issues.

The Job Abilities:

The single most universal trait of these Heavy-DD-Zerg events is that they emphasize Haste, or rather, melee delay reduction. The more haste you have, the more damage you deal, and the faster the NM dies. The longer this takes, the more the damage adds up, and thus, the more apparent the difference in potential damage output pup has relative to other melee DDs becomes readily apparent.

The core issue is a game function the players refer to as Job ability delay. This is the short 2-second period of time following the use of any job ability during which melee attacks are delayed. At first, 2 seconds doesn't seem like it should even be worth thinking about, but that's the fatal issue. 2 seconds when you're in a high-haste environment is a HUGE amount of time.

Player weapon delay is floored at 20% of it's original delay. This includes delay reductions from both haste itself, and from job traits like martial arts and dual wield. Delay translates into ~1 second between attacks for every 60 delay. Thus, if we take a standard pup h2h weapon (+51) and tack it on to the base h2h delay (480), we get a delay of 531, or one attack round every ~8.85 seconds. Now, of course, pup has martial arts, which significantly lowers their base delay (320 at 99), so that would actually be 371 delay, or one attack round every ~6.18 seconds. In this situation, JA delay is basically a non-issue.

However, when you get down to high-haste delays, the problem appears. With a +51 delay weapon, pup's delay cannot go lower than 106, but reaching that 106 delay is incredibly common in a high buff situation (Dual March, Haste spell, capped gear haste, and merited haste samba will do it for pup, due to the delay already reduced from martial arts). At 106 delay, we're looking at one attack round every 1.76 seconds.

This means that each time you use a job ability (in pup's case, the issue is caused by our need to use maneuvers every ~20 seconds if we want to maintain three of them at all times), you lose ~1.5-2 attack rounds, depending on timing. For pup, that number is doubled due to always attacking at least twice per round, and then further increased through the use of double attack, triple attack, quadruple attack, and kick attacks. Every attack you lose is TP you don't get, and with a low quality gear set, you're looking at losing about 1 WS every minute from using 3 maneuvers. This equates out to anywhere from 1000 to 4000 damage (depending on what you're fighting) every minute that you lose simply by using maneuvers, and that doesn't even account for the already large difference born solely from pup's lower stats, higher base delay, and higher gear quality requirements to achieve the same results.

Because of that, just the use of three maneuvers every minute ends up completely removing any value pup could add to the group as a melee damage dealer. However, the other roles it can play suffer just as badly for similar reasons. I would also like to emphasize that even if you gave pup's maneuvers a 2 hour duration, pup would still be behind other melees, but it would not be so drastic a gap. However, maneuvers are hardly our biggest issue. They're a significant one, don't get me wrong, but the core issue stems from the reason we need to use them.

The Automaton:

So, at the end of it all, our single great issue is the puppet itself. However, unlike the other issues, the automaton has several problems. Now, I don't mean to sound ungrateful. The automaton has come a long way from its initial stages, but it still isn't where it needs to be. For the puppet, the major issues are as follows: Stats, survivability, and most importantly AI & player control.

As far as stats go, you've definitely done some major improvements with the new delve animator, Alternator, and the be perfectly honest, I don't have a huge issue with animators being the fix for this particular issue. However, you should really at least allow us to equip non-throwable ammo items alongside the animator. It's really obnoxious that we can't, despite how you keep giving us ammo items with nice stats.

With survivability, the fundamental issue is that the devs seem to think the only puppet that should be at all durable is Valoredge. Valoredge is incredibly durable, but it can't hold a candle to Sharpshot in terms of damage, and using valoredge instead is basically like coming to a gun fight with a pair of underwear tied to a stick as your weapon. Either Valoredge needs some serious melee buffing, or sharpshot needs some serious defensive love.

Now, the main issue here is the AI, and the needlessly clunky player interface. Can you please explain to me why I have less fine control over my professionally built, artificially intelligent, programmable robot sidekick than a bst does over some wild animal they lured in with some yummy smelling broth, or smn has over a bemused god/dess that is lending the player their power for shits and giggles? I mean, sure, we have more control over our puppet than drgs do over their wyverns, but is that really the way it should be?

Bloodpacts as a system have not aged well at all, and neither did sic, which is why both of them have gotten updates and overhauls. On the other hand, I'm still forced to use maneuvers to suggest to my puppet what I want it to do, and even then, if I'm not careful, the puppet may just ignore me and do something else, and I have no way of specifying "I'm about to die! CURE ME NOW!" or "WS RIGHT NOW!", while both smn and bst, and even drg, CAN. The job that, logically, should have the most control over their pet, has the least.

What's worse, the "suggestion" system is clunky and forces us to choose between things we shouldn't have to choose between. If I want my puppet to use a particular ws, I have to make sure that ws's triggering maneuver is active, and for many of the ws, that means sacrificing the effectiveness of attachments linked to other maneuvers. There is absolutely no reason pup should not just be given our pets' WS as a pet command, and giving that to us would not make anything unbalanced in anyway.

It's not limited to WS, though. Spells suffer a lot, too. I should need to use an attachment for my puppet to know that a mob that doesn't cast any spells doesn't need to be silenced or addled. The puppet should just know that. I shouldn't need to use a maneuver for soulsoother to do a whm's job and prioritize cures and keeping people alive over status removal and enfeebling, and I shouldn't need a maneuver for it to be able to cast on party members. In fact, it shouldn't be unable to cast regen unless the monster engaged is DC+, given that regen is far more valuable to a pup against weaker monsters anyway, and it shouldn't cast buffs solely on whoever has hate, because that's a convoluted system. I shouldn't need to constantly deactivate spiritreaver to keep it from wasting precious casting time spamming aspir or drain when I don't want it to cast aspir or drain, and neither aspir nor drain should EVER take priority over nukes, especially when I have 3 Ice maneuvers up.

I should be able to tell stormwaker not to nuke at all without needing maneuvers; If I want it to focus on buffing me and keeping me alive, and save its MP solely for that, I shouldn't have to constantly deploy and retrieve it to do this, otherwise I'm forced to watch as the puppet burns 70% of its MP on nukes I didn't want it to cast but had no practical way to prevent.

For that matter, my puppet should not stop casting beneficial spells if the target it's deployed on dies. For nukes, sure, but if the target of the spell is a player, why would losing a the monster target suddenly interrupt casting?

Of course, aside from all this, there's also the fundamental issue that buffs do not apply to pets, which is absolutely absurd in many cases. Why can't pets benefit from sambas? That wouldn't unbalance anything. Why can't pets benefit from Geo's buffs even if they're standing in the right spot? Why should I, as a player, be forced to choose buffs for my puppet over buffs for myself if I'm getting buffs from a corsair, when it's obvious that the answer is "buff the players because pets suck." What is so wrong about giving pets access to buffs?

How to Fix it:

I don't know how you can fix the issues that stem from the dev team not understanding the job, or the players opinion of it, but I can tell you how to fix the issues with the puppet and with job abilities.

To fix abilities, it's simple. Make maneuvers last significantly longer than they do. You don't need to change anything about attachments that consume maneuvers, but aside from those, maneuvers should be treated as a sort of gambit/tactic system. "We're focusing on this method of play for the time being." This makes them a lot easier to use, and also makes overloading a bit more logical (repeatedly changing ones commands leading to the puppet becoming confused and overloading). Even if you significantly increased the frequency with which overloads occur.

I think the easiest method for this would be to simply introduce a second set of maneuvers, that function the same way as the original ones do relative to most attachments, but have much longer durations (and individual recasts), but are more likely to cause overload if used in succession, cannot be consumed by attachments, and still count towards the 3 maneuver cap. If you wanted to be a bit more forgiving, you could make these double-element maneuvers (a la the tier 2 skill chains; fire/light, wind/thunder, water/ice, earth/darkness).

As far as the AI goes, there are two basic things we need. First, better control over pet WS, through a pet command that allows us to choose a specific ws, or, hell, maybe an option in the automaton's menu that lets us pick its default WS.

Secondly, a lot of the issues with the AI can be cleaned up through one or two simple pet commands. Specifically, we need a means to force our puppet to stay in one place (the current ranging AI is unreliable), a "Stay" analogue, if you will, and we need a means to force the puppet to cast only defensive/supporting spells. Ideally, the latter could be used to, effectively, "deploy" our puppet on a player, rather than a monster, on whom the puppet would focus their attention.

Thus, we could have our puppet "deployed" on our tank, and the puppet would focus on curing and buffing the tank, then the master, then the puppet itself, then everyone else. However, we could also switch the target at will, thus allowing us far better control over who our puppet casts on than having to rely on the individual pulling hate. Ideally, we'd also get some degree over which spells the puppet casts. ie: if we have a wind maneuver, it'll prioritize haste, but earth maneuvers prioritize stoneskin/phalanx, and water maneuvers prioritize status removal. However, in such a system, stormwaker should still only be able to cast phalanx/stoneskin on a single target (ie: if stormwaker is deployed at another player, the puppet won't cast on the master at all), while soulsoother should always prioritize cures, no matter what maneuver is active.

Wow, this post was a lot longer than I really intended it to be...

I would suggest grips for drg wyverns, rather than weapons. That could be useful without (potentially) crippling the main job just to boost the little bit of wyvern damage. There's not anything particularly 'wrong' with wyverns right now (except maybe magic accuracy for breaths), so that should allow a sufficient amount of flexibility.

Pup animators: This should have been done years ago. Unfortunately, now, no matter what you add, it will only be compared to the Alternator. Still, if they're relatively easy to get, it could allow some nice low- to mid-range options. Also: increase the duration of maneuvers.

Smn avatars: As said above, avatars and how they work need a ground-up rethink. There is way too much wrong with the job right now, and any new gear additions would only lock things in further. Fix the job first, then add new gear.

Only thing that I don't like is that Camate didn't capitalize "Rune Fencer". Geomancer got capitalized. The RUNs of Vana'diel demand an apology or we're gonna complain for 750 pages. =(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zhronne

That's a very very bad idea.
You can't force jobs to equip certain items to receive marginal boosts to their pets. What if Dragoons what to use another better Polearm? What if SMNs want to use another different grip?
What if BSTs want to use another pet and boost that instead of using one of the new ones?

Guess this doesn't apply to PUP since Animator is an unique equipment that they're forced to equip anyway.


In my opinion the only possible way to have a fair and balanced improvement of pets conditions is to have what we could call SCALING. Which is exactely the same as pet jobs are handled in 99% of the other MMOs.
You can't have the scaling be too big in a game like FFXI of course, it should be small, a small additional bonus that is calculated according to the master stats.
This way the stronger the stats of the master, the stronger the bonus the pets will receive.

---

This.

I was hoping pet job changes could come along the lines of scaling rather than even more gear with "Pet: Stat".

dear SE, to put it blunt and simple: you can not solve the pet jobs' current problems with gear. You have to fix fundamental technical issues with pets.

@Theytak of course was long. You spelled out exactly what is wrong with PUP and gave your opinion of what would fix it. (I happen to agree with you)

SMN has a few issues that need reviewed. Bloodpacts being at the forefront of the job and the issues. Spirits are just an issue.

I am not nearly as good at listing my points and solutions so I'll keep it brief and let the mountains of threads in the smn subforum do the rest.

Bloodpacts:
45sec floor on recast when that is the only thing a smn can do that isn't something from our subjob.
Rage does really well when they are first available but scale horribly as level increases.
Ward only affect 5 other players (except during certain events)
Effect is almost always lower than what another job can output, except enfire.

Spirits:
Have been useless since the job was introduced.
Abysmal magic accuracy and magic atk.
Absolutely impossible to control actions.
AI, is there even one for this pet?
Were given a reason to purchase but only to gain more BP before running out of MP.

Aside from that are a few other issues:
Abysmal melee damage from all pets.
Inability to make light or dark skillchain with pets (no tier 2 element BPs)
Incapable of making full use of Avatars Favor since that makes a pet far weaker on melee & to maintain a good bonus, one cannot use BPs.

A more permanent fix would include

Removing BP timers in general or making them charges similar to SCH.
Make all avatar AoE true so any player/pet within range gains the benefits unless under certain effects preventing outside help.
Increase weapon DMG rating on all pets to variable level based on SMN skill when summoned.
Add BPs with dual element skillchain properties, one per avatar would be fine.
Allow players to control spirits casts, giving the spirit a set general recast regardless of spell based on smn skill when summoned in addition to individual recast timers. (no general recast floor)
Give spirits m.acc equal to smn skill when summoned & MAB on some raio of same.
Avatar's favor starts out at 90% max and does not reset until avatar dies.
Avatar's favor does not incur negative effects. (aside from pet feeding TP in order to be close to DDs)
Adjust rage formulas to make DMG rating a major factor in BP dmg. (thus smoothing rage dmg as pet gets stronger)

Still came out kinda long and I didn't even cover everything.

I wish they would just try and have a go with the pet scaling idea. Forcing every bst to use the same 1-2 new jugpets while the rest fall behind is a really boring, cheap idea. Let's not even go into what kinda items will be needed to synth them. And whatever they make, I pray to Altana it will last 2 hours and not 30/60/90 minutes (which is highly annoying).

Fingers crossed.

Giving Dragoons new lances to improve their wyverns is not going to work well, unless the lances are going to be very competitive with current end-game lances. Or that option is going to have to end up being on a vast majority of lances to end up being used.

Really, the best options with current systems in the game would either be opening up something like a Puppetmaster's attachment inventory system, or adding a new merit category just to enhance the pets that does not share with other merit categories.

Quote:

---

Summoner
Addition of grips that have stats to increase the parameters of avatars.

---

Can hardly wait for my "Avatar: Attack +10 M. Attack +10" grip. Should be ground-shattering. >_>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hawklaser

Giving Dragoons new lances to improve their wyverns is not going to work well, unless the lances are going to be very competitive with current end-game lances. Or that option is going to have to end up being on a vast majority of lances to end up being used.

Really, the best options with current systems in the game would either be opening up something like a Puppetmaster's attachment inventory system, or adding a new merit category just to enhance the pets that does not share with other merit categories.

---

Oooh! I like that idea. Something like~

Merit Category: Pets (individual 5/max 10)
Jug pets X/5
Avatars X/5
Wyverns X/5
Automatons X/5

and maybe Luopans X/5?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sweetidealism

Oooh! I like that idea. Something like~

Merit Category: Pets (individual 5/max 10)
Jug pets X/5
Avatars X/5
Wyverns X/5
Automatons X/5

and maybe Luopans X/5?

---

I would honestly be interested in seeing a concept like that fleshed out, though I'd say it would definitely need to be a bit more well thought out than just one blanket buff per job, because drg aside, I don't think smns, bsts, or pups could have one single merit that would be able to functionally improve their pets across the board.

I would suggest something more along the lines of a category that would coincide with the weapon skill and magic skill categories. A pet skill category, if you will. Thus, the merits could look something like this:
Pet: Physical Damage x/8 - Either (R)atk/(R)acc, or straight up base damage increase
Pet: Magical Damage x/8 - Either MAB/Macc, or just plain magical affinity (ie: Magian staves, but for all elements)
Pet: Endurance x/8 - Either defense/MDB or DT-
Pet: Vigor x/8 - Improved HP/MP
Pet: Physical Potency x/4 - Crit Hit Rate/Damage
Pet: Magical Potency x/4 - Magic Crit Hit Rate/Damage
The category cap would be either /20 or /24. This is just a spitball, though.

As a SMN, this really sucks. Oh yay! I got me a new grip that enhances avatar Physical attack by +30! SMN is saved! NOT!

-Look if you all would just base avatar attack / Blood pact power on summoning skill and allow us to do Skill break quests (Quests that allow us to raise our skill cap every once in a while so we can keep up with the new gear tiers you keep adding) then I might think you were on to something.