Prestiege Weapon Woes

In many ways, what SE is doing is in the best interest of attempting forward progress for their game. They are making players have new goals. The new weapons in Delve represent a fundamental part of any expansion, progression. There is nothing wrong with replacing older content with newer content, but they are making a fundamental mistake for this particular game. They are ignoring the core values of their fan base.

FFXI players don't mind grinding out gear and slowly working on perfecting equipment. We have attention spans and the ability to plan long term. We are also loyal, and will stick to playing the game between updates and expansions because we have a community to enjoy and goals to work on.

What we aren't is children on battle.net that have the attention span of a potato. We don't constantly get bored of this game, quit, come back a month later and want to build another character to max level in a week and get whatever stupid gear set is out at the time that probably glows.

The current problem is that what was loosely and preemptively discussed with us was marketed to us like we were the later population instead of the previous. That was a mistake and caused a reaction that most people could have predicted. While some of us can see this kind of change as it was intended, as progression, most saw SEs suggestion as throwing away their entire community's core values and being sold a product that they blatantly did not subscribe to for 10+ years.

Prestige weapons in FFXI are not synonymous with elitism, but are in fact a mark of dedication. They are a reward for playing a game long enough and enjoying it enough that you were willing to do 100s of times more work to acquire good/great equipment than it would have required in almost any other MMO. It is a sign of love for your favorite job and an attempt to move it past it's normal boundaries through sheer determination. FFXI is loved by its fans because it rewards Dedication, Determination, and Love for the game.

When you propose to do away with the fruits of our labors and throw away all of the progress we have made over a decade, you are playing with fire. You could end up destroying FFXI overnight. Some will stay, but plenty would abandon the game IF it continues to feel like you are out to make a quick buck off of us in return for nothing we value.

This comes at a very strange time for most of us because I don't think anyone thought FFXI was going to get another expansion. Something something FFXIV was/is terrible because it is marketed to the typical MMO population instead of FFXI's population which is why we are all back on FFXI. Combine that with the general approval of this new expansion by your player base and a renewed population playing it and we are completely shocked by why you would intentionally train wreck your most lucrative title both current and ever. We are your cash cow, we want what you want, which is for us to give you our money because you provided us with an enjoyable product.


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How you could progress your game but also reward your community's hard work is to better refine your original idea. You proposed to salvage the WSs from 2 out of the 3 Prestige weapons, but only 1 out of the 3 Prestige weapons have WSs worth salvaging. The other 2 have other things that are significantly more valuable to them than their WSs.

Relics are valued for their high base damage, +stats, and their hidden ODD that does not require an Aftermath to activate. They also have some additional affects on hit that are good and some that are bad, though no one made their Relics for the additional affects so they are mostly for flavoring. Most of their Aftermaths are terrible as are the WSs that are associated with them, even at 99. Most people use Merit WSs in conjunction with Relic Weapons to achieve a higher blend of total damage than they can get otherwise.

Mythics are valued for their ridiculous AM3s and their boosts to job abilities and job relevant stats. Pet jobs and Jobs that can maintain AM3s easily find these most desirable. Utility and support jobs also covet them because they can push the functionality of their jobs past previous restrictions such as Yagrush and Burtgang.

Empyreans are only good if their WSs are good. They have the same DPS rating as Relics, but they require their AM up to deal ODD. They have WS relevant attributes on them, which is generally useful. BUT Unless you are using the Empy WS, you are probably better off using a Relic with a Merit WS. That being said Ukonvasara and Verethragna were two of the strongest Weapons in the game before this last patch.

What is desired out of all three of these categories, generally differs, so a blanket solution would be ill advised. What would be advised is giving players a way to distill down what they liked about them and be able to walk away with them, regardless of what new content SE wants to implement. I suspect that was the intention of Mr. Matsui's original post, but it wasn't refined enough so that his community could appreciate it.

There are thrusts at the development team all the time, saying that they clearly don't play the game or that they just don't know what they are doing. I don't believe that is true because of the successful launch of this expansion. The original post by Mr. Matsui asked us to tell him what we liked in the game and what we wanted. I will make the 3rd section of this post, exactly that. I don't think I know better than him what to put in this game, but I respect that he wants my opinion I will do my best to orate that to him so that he can take it under consideration.

I am very happy with the current expansion and hope that he continues the direction it is going because I can clearly see the progression that should be associated with an expansion. What I will not appreciate seeing is damage stats so large that they need to be shorted to 120K like MMOs that aren't properly marketing to me and cannot attract my interest. Numbers of that magnitude have no significance to me and I would appreciate not seeing them in the game I enjoy playing outside of non traditional exceptions like Brews. When you are doing things like Brewing, it makes it significant, so that it can be appreciated because you jump from a couple thousand damage to almost 10 times that. Going from 100k to 1M as it would be in other games isn't aesthetically pleasing to me because it's just a bunch of zeros that are going to be cut off because they aren't significant.

What I would like to see out of the proposed change for the future is not just the damage increase that others are looking for. I don't need to always keep my Prestige weapon as the best in the game to be happy. These weapons represent older content that was worth accomplishing and should still be worth accomplishing for anyone that wishes to do them in the future. It is history and heritage that anyone that truly loves playing this game should enjoy. What needs to be preserved is the content that made them, the work ethic that is required to assemble them, and the motivation to acquire them.

The current delve weapons invalidate all of that, much to everyone's dismay. What I believe is the best solution is not to make the new weapons contender's for the prize that many people associate with Prestige weapons, but to transform Prestige weapons into job progression that a character can carry with them regardless of what new equipment is released. That way developer's hand are not tied by previous content and gear and are free to make new content and gear.


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When a character has a lvl 99 Prestige weapon they should be able to unlock new job abilities that correspond with the weapon that they unlocked. The kind of job ability will depends on what kind of Prestige weapon it was as well as if it was lvl 99 or lvl 99 with Afterglow. Because this won't be an upgrade to the existing weapons, people will be able to gain the lvl 99 job traits even if they are in the process of Afterglow but also gives them incentive to finish the Afterglow process.


RELICS

Relics at lvl 99 give a job trait named after their Relic WS(Mercy Stroke, Scourge, etc)
This job ability gives:

• Access to the Relic WS
• +40% to the Relic WS just like having a lvl 99 Relic would
• 5% ODD-ODT based on the specifications of the original Relic
• ODD-ODT applies to all forms of physical damage, magic damage, pet damage, but not WS damage

Relics at lvl 99 Afterglow replace the job trait of the Relic WS with the name of the Relic(Mandau, Ragnarok)
This job ability gives the previous benefits and adds:

• Half of the Accuracy, Attack, or Ranged Accuracy/Attack that lvl 99 Relics have
• An additional 5% ODD-ODT

Rules for Relic Job Traits:

If you don't have a Relic, you can get these JAs by acquiring the the Relic that corresponds to the weapon type that is your Mythic.

• BLU > Excalibur
• PUP > Spharai
• COR > Annihilator
• DNC > Mandau
• SCH > Claustrum
• RUN > Ragnarok
• GEO > Mjollnir

You can get the job traits for any Relic your job has access to. You only get the traits for the weapon type that is in your Main Hand when you are melee or Ranged Slot when you are doing ranged damage. Whether or not SE supplies you with current weapons that will support that choice is up to them.

If you are RNG you can use both Y-Bow and Annihilator in the ranged slot. How does that work? You can only use Archery WS with Archery Weapons and Marksmanship WSs with Marksmanship Weapons. The Traits will only affect the weapon type you are using so you will not get bonuses for Archery and Marksmanship Weapons at the same time.

For Dual Wield, so long as your offhand matches your main hand and you have a Relic Trait for your Main Hand, you will deal ODD-ODT with both hands. Same applies to H2H.

For RDM, pick whichever weapon you want for you main hand and stick with it. You're already getting up to a 10% chance to do 2.5 times or 3 times magical damage with swords or daggers. It's already a good deal.

Additional Affects and Relic Aftermaths didn't make the list of things to keep because they are largely negligible and when they aren't they are neither balanced nor do they represent what Relics represent as a whole.


Mythics

Mythics at lvl 99 give a job trait named after their Mythic WS(Death Blossom, Drakesbane, etc)
This job ability gives:

• +30% to Mythic WS damage
• All stats or Job Ability Augments on the Mythic Weapon
• Occasionally attacks twice 10% of the time. Applies to Pets, Ranged Attacks(Expends extra ammo), Jumps, and WSs(including MAB based WS).
• Occasionally reduces MP costs to 0 MP 10% of the time. Includes Blood Pacts and Automaton Casting.

Mythics at lvl 99 Afterglow replace the job trait of the Mythics WS with the name of the Mythics(Murgleis, Ryunohige)
This job ability gives the previous benefits and adds:

• Occasionally attacks thrice 5% of the time. Applies to the same list as above.
• Occasionally reduces recast time and MP cost of spells to 0. Activation rate 5%. Includes Blood Pacts and Automaton Casting.

I don't want to include AMs into the mix for simplicity, so I modified AM3s into something a little more modest for general melee and added some mage support. Ranged Attacks should be permissible because they cost extra ammo. MAB WSs for the most part lag behind Physical ones so they were included for the sake of fairness.

Everyone should know how hard Mythics are to acquire and what goes into them. They are long and arduous tasks. Since there is only 1 Mythic per job they don't need as many rules or clarifications, but that being said, every job requires it's own mythic to get this kind of benefit. Mythics are generally viewed as a Pinnacle piece for any job and usually represent a person's favorite job, because very few people would endeavor to own multiple.


Empyreans

Empyreans at lvl 99 give a job trait named after their Empyreans WS(Victory Smite, Ukko's Fury, etc)
This job ability gives:

• The Empyrean WS
• The 1/2 the Attribute(s) on the lvl 99 Weapon

Empyreans at lvl 99 Afterglow replace the job trait of the Empyreans WS with the name of the Empyrean(Verethragna, Ukonvasara)
This job ability gives the previous benefits and adds:

• The other 1/2 of the Attribute(s) on the lvl 99 Weapon

Same Rules as Relics for RUN and GEO since they don't have Empyreans. The lvl 99 Afterglow seems light, but a lot of Empyrean WSs are actually good and getting the full Attributes would make them just as strong as they are right now, not to mention the Attributes are valuable themselves. If you managed to get all the Afterglows, then your Empyrean WS would actually be stronger than they are right now because Relic AG Trait adds Atk/Acc and Mythic AG Trait adds chances for additional hits.


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By changing Prestige weapons into High Tier Job Traits, players won't feel like SE has thrown away their time and money. SE will be free to add new weapons and give us new goals without destroying our previous accomplishments and progress. This will allow people who haven't started Prestige weapons to work on current gear but add new incentives to finish older content. For players that already have all of their Prestige weapons completed, they can move onto Delve and enjoy the damage progression that come with the new weapons. It would be an intelligent way to increase the longevity of the game and keep your player base happy.

Although I'm careful to utter the word "impossible" around these parks at this point, I do think it's highly unlikely that SE would ever give us the perks of a RME as a job trait, in effect making it active full time no matter the weapon.


This could be a simple -small investment of work time- process of adjusting some numbers and calling it a day. Some people have often spoke about old content this and that but the thing is, RMEs aren't old content when they are sitting comfortably at level 99. It pretty much nullifies every argument that's been made against the idea of adjusting older weapons. You know what old is? A joy sword. A THF's knife. A kraken club. Ain't none of them rolling with the number 99 on them.


I might consider this JT idea as compensation enough for me, but I'm not counting on it ever. I just know I need compensation and so will many others. Replacing a top tier armor piece that drops from a monster and having to re-earn a new top tier weapon because your end all be all weapon that either cost you years of your life or hundreds of millions of your gil are two entirely different things to ask of a person. It won't be the end of the world for anybody, but if the current plans stay true to the end, I'd like to see just how many RME owners are going to be able to stomach their wasted investments. Giving them an easy to obtain rep is one thing(empyreans to some kind of extent), but giving easy to obtain weapons to everyone on a silver platter is something else.

I mean, it's great that the average joe can be running around with nice things other than AH weaponry, but I want to work for something better. I want to sacrifice more free time to obtain better. That's why I have relics and emps. Sure I could get my top tier "+2" delve weapon but it's never going to be great like obtaining my relics were.

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Originally Posted by Vold

I mean, it's great that the average joe can be running around with nice things other than AH weaponry, but I want to work for something better. I want to sacrifice more free time to obtain better. That's why I have relics and emps.

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Exactly. I feel the same way and I think a lot of people that still play FFXI do to.


Taking away our ridiculous goals eliminates content and doesn't reward anyone. It literally takes away from the game.

I think what I posted would be something that could be implemented with limited man power and time from the dev team. It would also placate most of people that play this game, so that they can go back to enjoying playing instead of worry about if they want to continue spending their time on this game.

I don't think what I posted is perfect, but I tried to make it fair because I know how it feels to have your job discriminated against and your time wasted because of arbitrary changes that could have been more generous to everyone.

I liked a lot of what you were saying and then I got to your proposals for how having a RME would affect your character...

I can appreciate what you are trying to do but I think that it presents too much of a hurdle for new players to overcome should they pursue being the best. A lot of people are saying VW is dead/miserable on their servers now, so the HMP supply is stagnant as is riftdross and cinder. Alexandrite will probably crash in price, and then that supply will be eaten. People are feeling like there's not a lot of reason to pursue old content with se's new plan, and let me tell you, the reason I was doing Salvage 1 had nothing to do with the 8-30 alexandrites I usually got.

As for seeing the direction they were taking content? I can't see it myself. I see they released wtf weapons that were competitive with relics, and easy to obtain, and then, very shortly, released weapons that leaves everyone scratching their heads. Skirmish is more difficult/expensive to get into, and yet Delve gives access to, unarguably, better weapons.

I played WoW, I liked it for what it was and I won't argue its merits, but let me tell you. WoW never saw good gear intentionally made obsolete so fast.

Ignoring the OP's attempt to rile up people who play games other than FFXI, the overt attachment to older content and the gear that comes from it is more an issue on the players' end rather than the developers. MMORPGs grow, and this is a fact. The growth does involve making older content less important or obsolete, regardless of how many sleepless nights and days off from work/school you used up to get your l337 ge4rz.

We saw similar complaints when Abyssea first came, as people who spent time to get Homam and a full Ares set were also unhappy that they were not unique and special anymore between the starter gear and drops from Abyssea. Not counting that the second coming of Tanaka did not help (because he's the one who made lv99 R/M/E purposefully expensive and grueling), I'm of the mind it'll blow over once people figure out how to beat the content and it'll be business as usual.

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Originally Posted by OmnysValefor

As for seeing the direction they were taking content? I can't see it myself. I see they released wtf weapons that were competitive with relics, and easy to obtain, and then, very shortly, released weapons that leaves everyone scratching their heads. Skirmish is more difficult/expensive to get into, and yet Delve gives access to, unarguably, better weapons.

I played WoW, I liked it for what it was and I won't argue its merits, but let me tell you. WoW never saw good gear intentionally made obsolete so fast.

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The problem is more that they implemented this without adjusting EVERYTHING else that comes before it. Which is how Blizzard deals with older content. Either through level differences (being able to 5-man Molten Core at lv85 instead of requiring 40-man like at lv60) or adjustments to mechanics of older content to make it possible to lowman. XI's devs have pretty much implemented one side without doing the other, which leaves the game in an odd position (provided they don't have other plans for either the older content or adjustments down the pipes for same).

As far as your second statement, the whiners who cried that HFP quest greens had better stats than T3 would like a word with you. =P

PS: As an aside, appearance (appearance enchants, vanity slots, transmogrification) one of the more common approaches that work when wanting to encourage people to do older content. I know FFXI players don't care about appearance because the game is played with constant gear-swaps, but I just wanted to throw that out there.

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Either through level differences (being able to 5-man Molten Core at lv85 instead of requiring 40-man like at lv60)

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This doesn't really count. you can do lower level content with fewer people when you reach a higher level in basically any game. That's not a feature that was put in by Blizzard. The strength of the enemies in the dungeon never changed. Also is there any actual reason to do molten core when you're level 85? with WoW's nigh exponential gear ramps, there couldn't posibly be anything useful in there other than materials to skill up a craft with.

Any old fight in FFXI is easy to do with 1 or a few people now when it might have taken an alliance before. This usually isn't because the content was modified, rather only because we've gotten stronger.

One of the best things that I can think of for r/m/es would be a quest to get an ammo with a latent effect on it. You need to have the lvl 99 version of the weapon to start the quest (afterglow not required). The ammo would basically offer the exact same benefits as your r/m/e weapon, but as a latent effect (latent triggered by not having that r/m/e weapon equipped). The relic/emp versions would also give access to that weapon skill, and the ws will get the same aftermaths as if you were wielding the actual r/m/e, whilst the ammo is equipped.

Un-equipping the ammo, kills any aftermath that was active and removes any hidden effects or stat bonuses.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

This doesn't really count. you can do lower level content with fewer people when you reach a higher level in basically any game. That's not a feature that was put in by Blizzard. The strength of the enemies in the dungeon never changed.

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Which itself is testimony to their design philosophy. What was the first thing that happened when Tanaka took over a second time? Adjusted mob levels and placement across all zones. Then retuned old content that up until then was being low-manned and cleared easily, as is par the course for old content in WoW.

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Also is there any actual reason to do molten core when you're level 85?

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If you wanted Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker or wanted to get Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros you still had to run MC. If you wanted to get full tier 1 for transmogrification, you still needed to run MC. If you wanted some of the weapons that dropped from MC that had unique textures for transmog, you had to run MC. If you wanted to make some cash by selling sulfuron ingots, you still needed to run MC.

Yes, there were people who got their panties in a twist when Legendaries like the aforementioned were phased out (or nerfed in the case of Thunderfury). They became status items and something to still aim for if you were a completionist or were interested in the lore surrounding the items (or simply liked their look). I'm thinking RME could move in that direction, having unique models and properties that set them apart from other weapons.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

One of the best things that I can think of for r/m/es would be a quest to get an ammo with a latent effect on it. You need to have the lvl 99 version of the weapon to start the quest (afterglow not required). The ammo would basically offer the exact same benefits as your r/m/e weapon, but as a latent effect (latent triggered by not having that r/m/e weapon equipped). The relic/emp versions would also give access to that weapon skill, and the ws will get the same aftermaths as if you were wielding the actual r/m/e, whilst the ammo is equipped.

Un-equipping the ammo, kills any aftermath that was active and removes any hidden effects or stat bonuses.

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I'm trying to think of any actual problems with this. PUP's Ammo piece would have to be an Animator and would have to work as well as any other animator. BST uses their Ammo slot frequently, and having to decide between healing your pet or keeping your AM seems like punishment. Combat BRDs would run into a similar problem, buff or keep AM. GEO doesn't have this problem because they don't have any prestige weapons. Tomahawk and Angon would not be used if AM was up, which would probably be ok because you would want to use those before you WS anyway.

Ranged weapons could be changed into grips since most Ranged Weapons users use a 2h Weapon in their main hand. A double Relic SAM wouldn't be possible anymore, but you could still be either independently.


It's why I was thinking Job Trait for implementation. It's literally a part of your job so it can't get in your way and doesn't have to deal with any of the negatives of keeping them as equipment.

If nothing else, I would want the stats and job enhancements on Mythics to be able to be turned into a Job Traits. They would be an epic quest to unlock more of your jobs full potential.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

I'm trying to think of any actual problems with this. PUP's Ammo piece would have to be an Animator and would have to work as well as any other animator. BST uses their Ammo slot frequently, and having to decide between healing your pet or keeping your AM seems like punishment. Combat BRDs would run into a similar problem, buff or keep AM. GEO doesn't have this problem because they don't have any prestige weapons. Tomahawk and Angon would not be used if AM was up, which would probably be ok because you would want to use those before you WS anyway.

Ranged weapons could be changed into grips since most Ranged Weapons users use a 2h Weapon in their main hand. A double Relic SAM wouldn't be possible anymore, but you could still be either independently.

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I forget whether animator goes in ranged or ammo slot. If it's ranged, then as long as this ammo was enabled to be equipped with any ranged weapon, then it's no issue. Same for BRD. For BST, as long as the aftermath and stats are returned as soon as the ammo is re-equipped, then you only lose the aftermath during call beast, or reward, and since you pause from meleeing to do that anyway, then it's no issue. This just leaves Gun and Bow, which as you said, a grip could work.

Alternatively, you could be able to augment 1 weapon with the r/m/e abilities. Though this would mean you can't swap between weapons, and also can't use the same weapon but swap aftermaths/stats between r/m/e if you have more than 1.

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Which itself is testimony to their design philosophy. What was the first thing that happened when Tanaka took over a second time? Adjusted mob levels and placement across all zones.

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This was done purely because there were not enough high level enemies of different kinds in the new areas. WoW's areas were huge and they never had "trial of the magians" so they never needed to do something like this. You can't always predict what you're going to need to do 10 years down the road- they've only changed these things because they had to, not because they wanted to mess with us.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

This was done purely because there were not enough high level enemies of different kinds in the new areas.

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There were plenty of high level enemies in Abyssea, which at the time was "new areas". The two cats that farmed stuff in Dargruf Wadi were not asking for mobs that conned T-IT to lv99s.

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WoW's areas were huge and they never had "trial of the magians" so they never needed to do something like this. You can't always predict what you're going to need to do 10 years down the road- they've only changed these things because they had to, not because they wanted to mess with us.

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Prior to Tanaka's return, mob /check was adjusted so that more mobs conned EP/DC to help lv95-99 players with their trials, so that was not it.

Anyway, you missed my point. WoW's old content was left alone or adjusted to facilitate low-manning without messing with mob levels or "revamping" it for the sake of revamping (much less attempt to sell it as new content). They simply don't do it unless it is story-relevant for that expansion (hence why Naxxrammas, Zul'Gurub and Zul'Aman stand as the only dungeons that were repurposed).

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There were plenty of high level enemies in Abyssea, which at the time was "new areas". The two cats that farmed stuff in Dargruf Wadi were not asking for mobs that conned T-IT to lv99s.

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No, there were not enoguh different types for trials at the time, plus there's no weather in abyssea, so you wouldn't be able to do weather trials there. The mobs in DW do not con IT to 99, not even the new expansion mobs do.

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Prior to Tanaka's return, mob /check was adjusted so that more mobs conned EP/DC to help lv95-99 players with their trials, so that was not it.

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Uhm... no, check was not adjusted, ever. they didn't change anything, they simply left the cutoff where it was despite the level cap increasing. The other purposes of placing higher level enemies was to 1) renew areas that are nearly never visited anymore (though that didn't work very well0 and 2) make high level monsters available outside of the expansion areas so it wasn't an absolute requirement to buy WotG to reach level 99, unlike WoW which actually bases the level cap on installed expansions.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No, there were not enoguh different types for trials at the time, plus there's no weather in abyssea, so you wouldn't be able to do weather trials there. The mobs in DW do not con IT to 99, not even the new expansion mobs do.

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This I said more to make a point. Which once again flew over your head. They adjusted things that did not need adjusting. While stuff that needed adjusting (jobs, stuff like Ochain/Aegis being an on/off switch for PLD viability, Almace being the same for RDM, procs still favoring some jobs over others) was left by the wayside.

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Uhm... no, check was not adjusted, ever. they didn't change anything, they simply left the cutoff where it was despite the level cap increasing.

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False. They changed the parameters for /check so that a wider level range of mobs would con EP/DC to deal with the problem of not having exp-worthy mobs to complete trials with. That part was still when Yoshida was with us.