Merit Weapon Skill Adjustments April Update

Could we please get some clarification? Are we talking a buff or nerf here? Are DRKs going to be running back to scythes again? Very interested.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Merit Point Weapon Skills

This is a topic we have seen in threads asking to increase the cap on the merit point weapon skill category.
Instead of adjusting the cap value, we are currently looking into adjusting the modifier values so that these weapon skills can be used with a single merit point.

We are envisioning to make it so 1 merit point will yield a 65% status modifier, and each point afterwards will grant an addition 5% for a maximum of 85% (no changes to the max value).

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Current
1 Merit gets 17% mod each merit after adds 17% more to the modifier for a total of 85%

Next Patch
1 Merit gets 65% mod each merit after adds 5% more to the modifier for a total of 85%

This isn't what we wanted at all and we are very limited on the jobs we can play. A lot of the my melee jobs are now benched because I can't get their merit WS. Being gimped isn't an option for me so they will stay benched until they up the merit cap which they already said they didn't want to do.

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Originally Posted by Masamune11

Could we please get some clarification? Are we talking a buff or nerf here? Are DRKs going to be running back to scythes again? Very interested.

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It is not a nerf, it is an adjustment so that 1 merit gives 65% rather than 17%, with each additional merit giving 5% rather than 17%, so that they both cap at 85% but you can put in less merits for a much better effect than before.

I see nothing wrong with frontloading the stat mods like this. This allows for much more experimentation (Shattersoul for SMN, for example) and flexibility (Realmrazer for club PLDs and Entropy/Upheaval for DRKs). This is a move in the right direction for those of us who have more than 1 preferred job.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

I see nothing wrong with frontloading the stat mods like this. This allows for much more experimentation (Shattersoul for SMN, for example) and flexibility (Realmrazer for club PLDs and Entropy/Upheaval for DRKs). This is a move in the right direction for those of us who have more than 1 preferred job.

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This.

While it won't please the hyper-perfectionists (whom can never be pleased by anything), it does give a few inches more freedom.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

I see nothing wrong with frontloading the stat mods like this. This allows for much more experimentation (Shattersoul for SMN, for example) and flexibility (Realmrazer for club PLDs and Entropy/Upheaval for DRKs). This is a move in the right direction for those of us who have more than 1 preferred job.

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Its not a good move that 20% modifier makes a huge difference in WS damage. Your WS will be doing less damage if they aren't capped there is no arguing that point. For the hardcore end game player there is no choice, you still have to have 5/5 on your weapons skills no going 1/5 with a bunch of gimped ones.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Its not a good move that 20% modifier makes a huge difference in WS damage. Your WS will be doing less damage if they aren't capped there is no arguing that point. For the hardcore end game player there is no choice, you still have to have 5/5 on your weapons skills no going 1/5 with a bunch of gimped ones.

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going 2 or 3 / 5 closes that gap sufficently for the WS to be better than alternatives in most of not all cases where the WS is better at 5/5.

3/5 in 5 WS lets you merit enough weapon skills that most of your jobs will have one they can use.

In a game where people will pay 8mil for 1 extra STR. (or more) 3/5,4/5 in a WS is not going to be acceptable for much of the player base. They really just need to raise the cap to 25 total points. Give us 5 5/5 WSs.

Yea pretty much, FFXI is a game where people will pay 200m for Huginn Gambieras which only net you +9 str over ravg.+2 feet.

Going 3/5 or 2/5 or whatever on WS is just out of the question for most people.

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Originally Posted by Taint2

In a game where people will pay 8mil for 1 extra STR. (or more) 3/5,4/5 in a WS is not going to be acceptable for much of the player base. They really just need to raise the cap to 25 total points. Give us 5 5/5 WSs.

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IMHO, only crazy people do that. Of course, crazy people might have more gil than I do.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

3/5 in 5 WS lets you merit enough weapon skills that most of your jobs will have one they can use.

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Increasing the Weapon Skill category's merit point cap would serve the same purpose, and is a harmless, rational, and popular request. Can you formulate a comparably rational, sensible defense for maintaining the current cap?

With the cap at 3 fully merited WS that limits your choices a lot only playing 3 jobs to the their full potential. Having like 25 merits in WS will allow people more options and the ability to play more jobs at their full potential. Since you can only be on once job at a time there really is no harm in this.

Really there shouldn't be a cap on merit WS at all if we want to go out and get 100 merits to unlock each one then we should be able to.

Merit WS should just be treated the same as the job catagories. Imagine if you could only pick 3 jobs to use merits on for the job merits. The limiting WS merits clashes with the whole ability to change job system.

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Originally Posted by Snowlock

Increasing the Weapon Skill category's merit point cap would serve the same purpose, and is a harmless, rational, and popular request. Can you formulate a comparably rational, sensible defense for maintaining the current cap?

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Yes. Increasing the base attribute bonus for the weapon skills is a harmless, sensible and rational request that would serve the same purpose.

If your suggestion would serve the same purpose as what they're already doing, then you should be happy that they're doing what they said they're doing.

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Merit WS should just be treated the same as the job catagories. Imagine if you could only pick 3 jobs to use merits on for the job merits. The limiting WS merits clashes with the whole ability to change job system.

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It really doesn't clash at all. You can play any of the 22 jobs that you want, and the jobs that you like the most you can choose to make even stronger. This customizes your character and makes it different from other people's. Apparently though, the popular opinion is no cusotmization, make everybody be the same. But then they may as well just get rid of the merit system, give us all the abilities they created for it, and pump our stats. SE WANTS you to make decisions. The only problem with this is people hate making decisions.

I don't know about you, but I'm totally fine with not being the best at <insert job1 here> in exchange for being better at <insert job2 here>. I can still provide Job1 if it's truly needed, but when job2 is needed, I really get to shine.

im with Alhanelem here, is it the solution we want, no. but it isnt the worst situation. Its not a nerf in anyway, as its actually a buff so really it isnt that bad. again I would love for them to increase the cap, but im happy enough with this. Sorry i just dont have a big e-penis like some of those guys who have to perfect everything, which by the way you can still do, just only 3 (as has been always so).

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Yes. Increasing the base attribute bonus for the weapon skills is a harmless, sensible and rational request that would serve the same purpose.

If your suggestion would serve the same purpose as what they're already doing, then you should be happy that they're doing what they said they're doing.

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That was a particularly transparent attempt to re-frame the challenge I gave you. The base attribute bonus is proposed to increase on the first point, and all further points convey a reduced bonus. The net result is a maximum stat modification of 85%

The harmless, rational and popular request documented in this thread is for the ability to raise one or more additional weapon skills to the same 85% modification value. What you're suggesting is a compromise, which is laudable, but frankly off-topic, and so I repeat my question: Can you formulate a comparably rational, sensible defense for maintaining the current cap?

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Originally Posted by Snowlock

That was a particularly transparent attempt to re-frame the challenge I gave you. The base attribute bonus is proposed to increase on the first point, and all further points convey a reduced bonus. The net result is a maximum stat modification of 85%

The harmless, rational and popular request documented in this thread is for the ability to raise one or more additional weapon skills to the same 85% modification value. What you're suggesting is a compromise, which is laudable, but frankly off-topic, and so I repeat my question: Can you formulate a comparably rational, sensible defense for maintaining the current cap?

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I already gave one. There was nothing irrational about it, nothing not sensible about it. You can disagree with it, but that doesn't make it irrational and non-sensible.

The reason the limits exist is customization. Contrary to popular belief, it was not purely intended as a post-level-cap advancement system. And, in fact, merits can be earned or applied at any time after level 75- you don't have to be at the level cap. By asking players to make decisions about the way they grow stronger, the result is a shred of uniqueness to each character in a world that has more and more people with every single job leveled to 99. Maybe some/many people don't care for customization and uniqueness, I don't know. While its nice to have everything, in the end the game will become more dull (in my opinion) when you know that the majority of people there are basically the same as you except for their gear, and usually that's simply because the player with less gear hasn't been playing as long or hasn't been able to get the help they needed.

The widely held belief seems to be that because we can play and level every job on one character, that itself lends to not having customization. But in any other MMORPG, while you only play one class on a character, you can make as many characters as you want to play all the classes- I don't see the difference, personally.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I already gave one. There was nothing irrational about it, nothing not sensible about it. You can disagree with it, but that doesn't make it irrational and non-sensible.

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You didn't. You suggested ways players could gain extra weapon skills by lowering their existing weapon skill stat modifications. That's a compromise, and a response to a completely different position to the one taken in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The reason the limits exist is customization. Contrary to popular belief, it was not purely intended as a post-level-cap advancement system. And, in fact, merits can be earned or applied at any time after level 75- you don't have to be at the level cap. By asking players to make decisions about the way they grow stronger, the result is a shred of uniqueness to each character in a world that has more and more people with every single job leveled to 99. Maybe some/many people don't care for customization and uniqueness, I don't know. While its nice to have everything, in the end the game will become more dull (in my opinion) when you know that the majority of people there are basically the same as you except for their gear, and usually that's simply because the player with less gear hasn't been playing as long or hasn't been able to get the help they needed.

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That is a valid defense of maintaining the current cap. It's a fiat, and not a position based on logic but instead on authority, but valid nonetheless. Even so, it's the same fiat that's being challenged in this thread, so it's still not a very productive direction for the topic. You're not going to convince anyone with that argument, but it's the first on-topic statement you've made so far, so cheers.

The fact is they're still adding new jobs, and it's not unreasonable to request an additional weapon skill with the same 85% stat modification potential now and then to keep pace with job inflation.

Imagine, instead of merit point caps, we were instead talking about maximum allowed aggregate job level cap per character (e.g. 450 job levels spread however you like across available jobs). As new jobs were added, it would be logical to expect players to request an expansion of that job level cap to accommodate the new jobs. And so with weapon skills.

You can assert your fiat about customizability here, but it's just not very compelling.

The problem is the game lets you level to 99 on every job but then turns around and says. Now that you got 99 you can only be good at 3 jobs.

I could play my 99 sam yes but it doesn't have Shoha because I used my merit WS on Resolution, Requiescat, and Exenterator. The job without Shoha does very low damage compared to with it. Playing a 99 sam with no Shoha is not something I am willing to play becasue I know it will under preform no matter how good I am at playing sam.

The game is forcing you not to play certain jobs because you can't get the merit WS for. With every melee the merit WS is good, its almost too good.

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You can assert your fiat about customizability here, but it's just not very compelling.

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I can't tell a lie, I don't know what a "fiat" is, other than a brand of car. I had to look it up (An arbitrary order). I guess it's arbitrary, but so isn't everything else in the game? the amount of damage we do, the HP we have, it was all just decided upon by the people who made the game.

I can understand it not being compelling if you don't like customization, but I'm unable to comprehend why people don't like customization. I'll admit that. It's not like the changes you make with merits are permanent. You can always unlearn a merit ability and level something else up. I could more understand people hating the system if you couldn't change what you put in.

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Playing a 99 sam with no Shoha is not something I am willing to play becasue I know it will under preform no matter how good I am at playing sam.

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So if your group badly needs a SAM for voidwatch, where Shoha is not a proc, you're still not willing to use it? You'd abandon your group rather than play it, just because you wont parse as high, even though you'd still win with flying colors? That seems irrational to me. Is Shoha really so blows-everything-out-of-the-water-by-massive-margin that the job is completely unplayable without it and makes it impossible to win by having the SAM in your party?

Just so you know, with new jobs, I don't oppose an increase in the limit- I only oppose removing the limit entirely. Allowing 5 WS maxed (which would also allow nearly every WS to be taken to level 2, which is higher than what level 3 would be before this patch) isn't unreasonable. All I'm saying is their solution is reasonable and rational.

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Originally Posted by Snowlock

Increasing the Weapon Skill category's merit point cap would serve the same purpose, and is a harmless, rational, and popular request. Can you formulate a comparably rational, sensible defense for maintaining the current cap?

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Diversity in the game environment lending itself to more unique situations and people's ability to specialize themselves towards certain jobs. Back in the day, exp was one of the largest things defining which jobs you are more effective with, and which jobs you are less effective with. Since it is now less time consuming to get 10 jobs to level 99 than it was to get 1 job to 75, merits are now what helps to define your specialties. Well, that in addition to gear and player understanding and capability.

No truly great RPG allows one person to be the best at everything. Merits help to define who you are in game. My magic merits are in string, wind, and singing, so I am a more effective bard than most players. However, that means I'm a less effective BLM. I prefer it this way to having everyone be a carbon-copy of one another where it's ok to expect everyone has every job leveled with all merits and a base level of gear for each. I like the environment that this specialization helps to create.

Why cap it at all? It won't hurt balance and gives people something to do. It also increases trust between players and devs since we feel like SE cares.

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Originally Posted by Sephiran

Why cap it at all? It won't hurt balance and gives people something to do. It also increases trust between players and devs since we feel like SE cares.

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It does hurt balance. it gives hardcore players a greater advantage and further discourages specializing in certain jobs. SE *wants* you to make decisions about what to make stronger. Capping how strong and how versatile you can get is part of balance.

Increasing the limit is fine- it should be porportionate to the number of jobs. Removing it is not. What Karbuncle is asking for is within the realm of reasonable. What you're asking for is not.

SE could do the same thing to "increaes trust" and make people feel like they care by giving everybody 1 billion gil. I'm sure everyone would love that, but that would kind of spoil the game. I feel this is the same situation, just on a lower level. To me, it's like putting in a cheat code. It might be fun at first, but the game will wear out faster.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I guess it's arbitrary, but so isn't everything else in the game? the amount of damage we do, the HP we have, it was all just decided upon by the people who made the game.

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Very much so, even the existence of FFXI is arbitrary, but here it is. We get three merited weapon skills. Why not one or two, why not four? That's the question being posed here, I suppose. We just received two new jobs, and now that the repertoire has expanded it's fair to ask, why not four? There are fourteen to choose from, after all.

Your point about customizability stands even if they do toss us a bone and add 5 points to the cap.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It does hurt balance. it gives hardcore players a greater advantage and further discourages specializing in certain jobs. SE *wants* you to make decisions about what to make stronger. Capping how strong and how versatile you can get is part of balance.

Increasing the limit is fine- it should be porportionate to the number of jobs. Removing it is not. What Karbuncle is asking for is within the realm of reasonable. What you're asking for is not.

SE could do the same thing to "increaes trust" and make people feel like they care by giving everybody 1 billion gil. I'm sure everyone would love that, but that would kind of spoil the game. I feel this is the same situation, just on a lower level. To me, it's like putting in a cheat code. It might be fun at first, but the game will wear out faster.

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I already do specialize in one job. I play paladin exclusively [insert comments about how I should suck less and just quit right now here]. I need Resolution, Realmrazer, Shattersoul, and Requiescat. Right now, the only way I might only need three of those weapon skills is if my dream comes true and the weapon skill adjustments discussed earlier release the exclusiveness on Hexa Strike.

Three weapon skills isn't even enough for one job, and I put my heart and soul into my paladin.

TL;DR so ppl don't rag on me for the wrong reason: I support Karbuncle's proposition (increase limit 3 -> 5) as reasonable.

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Three weapon skills isn't even enough for one job, and I put my heart and soul into my paladin.

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You don't need three of the weapon skills for one job. Why do you need shattersoul? how does it help you play paladin? While PLD does have reasons to use a staff, like to help get VW procs for instance, it's hardly essential to the job.

Besides, those three weapon skills are also useable by other jobs. each one is of particular interest to at least one. So you actually are covering several jobs with those three.

Other than for getting procs, I see little reason to use anything other than a sword most of the time on PLD, excluding procs- and unless something has changed or I'm sorely misinformed, the merit WS are not used in the proc systems currently in the game.

You don't NEED all four of those weapon skills. You WANT them. You only truly need one, maybe two of them. Even within your job, you specialize- with the group 1 and 2 merits, and with the weapon skills. You don't get to merit every weapon skill, so you pick the ones for the weapons you use most often.

Just FYI, 3 weaponskills (sword or dagger, club, staff) can give something to almost every job. 5 is enough to both do that and give you something specific tot he ones you play most.

You are correct. None of the weapon skills are used in procs. However, when I'm fighting things weak to blunt damage that have high critical evasion and defense, I like Shattersoul because Realmrazer falls apart due to multiplier penalties and Chant du Cygne actually needs critical hits to be effective. Also, in the event that I'm backup healer, I can occasionally use Spirit Taker to replenish my MP supply. That's how I used to heal people in Retro Nyzul Isle.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

TL;DR so ppl don't rag on me for the wrong reason: I support Karbuncle's proposition (increase limit 3 -> 5) as reasonable.

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So you were defending an opposing position in this and other threads because...

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Originally Posted by Snowlock

So you were defending an opposing position in this and other threads because...

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It wasn't really an opposing position. But I was content with the changes they are already making- in stark contrast to the mega outrage from most of the people here- something there is generally way too much of. Some of it is justified, some of it isn't. In this case, I don't feel it's justified.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It wasn't really an opposing position. But I was content with the changes they are already making- in stark contrast to the mega outrage from most of the people here- something there is generally way too much of. Some of it is justified, some of it isn't. In this case, I don't feel it's justified.

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Take another glance through the thread. There is no mega-outrage here. Only a perfectly reasonable, rational and popular suggestion.

Edit: Until the JP community suggests it, it'll get no traction at all, so in the interim your compromise premise is the best we can hope for.

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Originally Posted by Sephiran

You are correct. None of the weapon skills are used in procs. However, when I'm fighting things weak to blunt damage that have high critical evasion and defense, I like Shattersoul because Realmrazer falls apart due to multiplier penalties and Chant du Cygne actually needs critical hits to be effective. Also, in the event that I'm backup healer, I can occasionally use Spirit Taker to replenish my MP supply. That's how I used to heal people in Retro Nyzul Isle.

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That's part of the nature of merits. You can't have it all. Is the blunt damage important to you? Then take a WS which lets you maximize blunt damage.

You can be really good at a couple things, or you can be mediocre at most things, but you can't be really good at all things. This is the nature of category caps on merits. I'm really good at bard because that is what I have chosen to invest my resources into. My other jobs are also good, but I'm specialized towards bard. This helps to define who I am ingame. I like that.

While I would of preferred 5~6 WS at 5/5, I guess we have no real choice to accept what SE's doing. The difference between 3/5, 4/5 and 5/5 is incredibly small and it opens up slots to use for utility WS's. This won't replace things like resolution but it will work to let people have alternative situational WS's.

I like the change could it be better yep but then it be mindless now we have to still at least give thought to how we play. The new options that open for me are skill chains with more ws I now have more options and that's alright in my book. We been so spoiled a 65% mod on a ws was insane a few years ago now its meh lol...

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Yea pretty much, FFXI is a game where people will pay 200m for Huginn Gambieras which only net you +9 str over ravg.+2 feet.

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The people who pay 200m for it are 99% of the time jobs like DRK DRG BST

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

The people who pay 200m for it are 99% of the time jobs like DRK DRG BST

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Agreed. Though the point is clear.

Its a 10 Year old game, with an outdated Combat System, and hard to fix Enmity issues, and tanking system. The only real thing to do in this game anymore is to upgrade your Character and gear.

Honestly, If they want a bit more longevity, they should just uncap merits entirely, but I'm sure they're saving that for the games Swan Song update.

Binomial(14,3) = 364
Binomial(14,5) = 2002

Increasing the cap to 5 would generate 5.5x the potential diversity over the current system '~'!

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Originally Posted by Taint2

In a game where people will pay 8mil for 1 extra STR. (or more) 3/5,4/5 in a WS is not going to be acceptable for much of the player base. They really just need to raise the cap to 25 total points. Give us 5 5/5 WSs.

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But there are 15 merit weapon skills. Wouldn't that still leave some people dissatisfied?

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Originally Posted by Asymptotic

Binomial(14,3) = 364
Binomial(14,5) = 2002

Increasing the cap to 5 would generate 5.5x the potential diversity over the current system '~'!

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I was thinking decreasing the Merit WS cap to 3 (33% each merit) and suddenly you get 2 extra WSs out of the current system. Or leave it the same, but adjust the numbers so that its 30/30/30/10/10

5/5'ers get +10% to their capped WS, but 90% isn't bad for people who use multiple jobs?

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Agreed. Though the point is clear.

Its a 10 Year old game, with an outdated Combat System, and hard to fix Enmity issues, and tanking system. The only real thing to do in this game anymore is to upgrade your Character and gear.

Honestly, If they want a bit more longevity, they should just uncap merits entirely, but I'm sure they're saving that for the games Swan Song update.

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Uncapping merits wouldn't provide longevity, it would help kill the game faster. It's like playing with a cheat code.

When you played games in the old days and cheated, did that make the game last longer for you? No, it didn't. Giving everybody everything doesn't make the fun last longer. The game was designed and balanced around the limits that were put in place.

(Also, why are you capitalizing random Words that aren't proper Nouns?)

LoL. Okay, You tell me how adding Some Stats, a few points off acc or atk, and some situational/questionable JA or Job Specific Merits is akin to playing the game with cheats on.

Ahalnahmleh, Sometimes i wonder if you believe what you're saying or just get a kick out of finding unique ways to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

LoL. Okay, You tell me how adding Some Stats, a few points off acc or atk, and some situational/questionable JA or Job Specific Merits is akin to playing the game with cheats on.

Ahalnahmleh, Sometimes i wonder if you believe what you're saying or just get a kick out of finding unique ways to disagree.

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I don't get a kick out of disagreeing. Until you brought up the idea of removing all limits, I was in agreement with you. I thought the thread would be over at that point =\

You tell me how removing all game limits makes the game better first. And thats what you said- remove the limits. Removing the limits removes customization because players don't have to make any meaningful decisions- they know they can just get everything. It throws the game out of balance and makes players who have played the game longer all the more better than people who haven't played as long- taking a minor, unavoidable issue and turning it into a more major one. Limits exist for reasons- it's too easy to just say "I want everything, remove all limits" and it's easy to say you can't counter it because more is better than less.

And really how hard is it to copy and paste a name? I don't call you karbunkull or karrgarblkle. You accuse me of finding new and creative ways to disagree, I accuse you of changing your view point in order to get me to.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

But there are 15 merit weapon skills. Wouldn't that still leave some people dissatisfied?

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Elitists and Must-Have-MOARs can never be satisfied. It's not worth the effort to try. 25 points is more t han plenty of breathing room while still requiring the player to make decisions about their character. Which is a good thing, not a bad thing.