Alternative methods to obtain Geomancer scrolls.

Considering the only method to obtain these scrolls are from three vendors in Western Adoulin(appears so at least), the prices are outrageous. 8,121,163 is the total cost of all the spells. Another means to obtain these spells, or a drastic reduction in price is greatly needed.

A simple fix is to reduce the price of all the spells by 75% it would lower the total price to around 2million, and for future spells they should drop off monsters since no geomancer spell drops off of monsters.

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Originally Posted by Nickm

Considering the only method to obtain these scrolls are from three vendors in Western Adoulin(appears so at least), the prices are outrageous. 8,121,163 is the total cost of all the spells. Another means to obtain these spells, or a drastic reduction in price is greatly needed.

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Based on the Asura AH prices for scrolls the estimated cost to be a fully learned SCH99/RDM49 is 5,603,032 Million (give or take a couple of 10k's)

WHM and BLM would be higher, considering things like Ancient Magic and such.

I'd say that extra 3 million by comparison is an appropriate early adoption tax. I know I had to pay extra for my SCH spells and my PUP attachments when they were new. Fun fact -- there are already alternative methods to get your spells, you just don't know what they are yet because, news flash, the Expansion has only been out for a week.

If you didn't notice, the Colonization Reive system unlocks new areas as you progress through it. New areas means new enemies -- we haven't even seen any of the new Beastmen yet as far as I know. Once we cut through to those enemies, I can guarantee you that there will be ways to get every spell on the list.

Right now, however, just like with every other Mage/Additional item dependent job you're paying extra to get everything early --- that's your decision. If you want to get them an alternative way, you're going to have to wait until we find them.

Hell, the wikis don't even list the NPCs we already know have spells yet -- how would you expect people to already know where to find them as drops?

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

A simple fix is to reduce the price of all the spells by 75% it would lower the total price to around 2million, and for future spells they should drop off monsters since no geomancer spell drops off of monsters.

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Is this the first time you guys are around for a new expansion...? Hell no -- you should not get all of your spells for 2 million gil -- not when a SCH/WHM/RDM/BLM have to pay more than double and often triple that WITH REDUCED AH PRICES.

Just going to point out, while there are some spells cheaper on the AH, there are also some that are drastically overpriced. Scrolls from quests are often a prime example of over-priced scrolls.

And before saying the scroll prices for GEO are appropriate, compare the costs of other high level scrolls from vendors to the cost for GEO spells. Only non-GEO scroll I can think of off-hand that is over 200,000 at a vendor is reraise 3.

I understand the expansion is new, and that spells will eventually be obtainable by an alternative method. Every example you listed above was obtainable from mob drops/chests/Bcnms/etc. upon release. The price you listed for sch/blm/whm/rdm is irrelevant, as you have the choice to buy them, or obtain another way.
I don't feel like Geomancers should be "punished" for wanting their spells upon leveling. The colonization levels for the various coalitions only seem to rise with the conquest tallies. To my understand/speculations higher ranked coalitions will be needed to enable "special reives". Leaving us with the options of 1) Pay the insane prices. 2) Play the job without experiencing all it has to offer.

The total cost of GEO spells is a bit of a sticker shock all at once if I compare it to SCH just because they're all new, whereas with SCH I had purchased the majority of the job's available spells over the years from other jobs.

However, the total cost of spells doesn't surprise me, really. There has to be a few people like me who are only playing the expansion to try out the new jobs. With leveling being so quick, SE has just the skilling up and the spell cost to string me along a bit longer. For the people in it for the long haul, you'll be doing the same thing as always - pay through the nose if you want it now, or wait a bit to see if other sources emerge.

One thing I'm especially glad about is that all new spells are available from NPCs, much in line with the SCH-specific spells and COR dice. It prevents the moving target of AH spell prices (at least in the sense that you know the max), and the rarity issue. Those were fun elements a decade ago when I was a poor RDM in my first run through the game, building up for Phalanx. But I no longer enjoy that.

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Originally Posted by Nickm

I understand the expansion is new, and that spells will eventually be obtainable by an alternative method. Every example you listed above was obtainable from mob drops/chests/Bcnms/etc. upon release. The price you listed for sch/blm/whm/rdm is irrelevant, as you have the choice to buy them, or obtain another way.
I don't feel like Geomancers should be "punished" for wanting their spells upon leveling. The colonization levels for the various coalitions only seem to rise with the conquest tallies. To my understand/speculations higher ranked coalitions will be needed to enable "special reives". Leaving us with the options of 1) Pay the insane prices. 2) Play the job without experiencing all it has to offer.

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You're paying to be on the job early.

The point is -- alternative ways to get your spells already exist, the expansion is just far too new for everyone to know where they are.

If you want to wait, you're get your alternative ways to obtain your spells because they already exist. Otherwise you're paying that extra cost to be one of the first people on the job with the new spells, just like everyone else did on SCH, COR, PUP, and any other job that has to acquire its abilities/spells over a period of time.

Don't whine just because you're too impatient to wait to find out where those drops come from, all of the other jobs had to -- now you do too.

You know that almost all Corsair Dice are from NPC only? There is a Chance that the NPC is the only way to get the Spells.

The most expensive Roll is 123k.... Geomancer spells above 75 start at around 650k each... Not a fair comparison.

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Originally Posted by Nickm

The most expensive Roll is 123k.... Geomancer spells above 75 start at around 650k each... Not a fair comparison.

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Nothing from NPCs are as high priced as these new spells. So nothing is really a completely fair comparison.

SE could simply be trying to burn some of that Chocobo Blinker gil out of the economy.

So it maybe a lil while before we see scrolls as drops. Who knows

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Originally Posted by Nickm

The most expensive Roll is 123k.... Geomancer spells above 75 start at around 650k each... Not a fair comparison.

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Thats my point. When NPC is the only way its far to expensive

I read on the wiki that it is possible the shops are dependent on the different coalitions for trade and their prices may be affected by the attributed coalition rank. As such, it may be possible for the price to drop as Coalition ranks rise.

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Originally Posted by Elphy

SE could simply be trying to burn some of that Chocobo Blinker gil out of the economy.

So it maybe a lil while before we see scrolls as drops. Who knows

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...?

Really? You realize we're at a point where you can solo dynamis, farm currency, and AFK for days to come back to millions of gil, right? Between that, selling KI's for Abyssea (anyone building an empy weapon mercs more than they farm, there just aren't enough hours in the day for farming that shit yourself.), merc'ing brews, and actual players who run FC parties -- plenty of people are rolling in so much gil that the blinker scenario was an irrelevancy to them. Frankly I wish I had known about it.. >_> Could have used that gil to merc my thaumas...

The only difference is that Dynamis Currency, Selling Popitems and so on only circulates Gil. Chocobo Blinkers created Gil.

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Originally Posted by Horadrim

Based on the Asura AH prices for scrolls the estimated cost to be a fully learned SCH99/RDM49 is 5,603,032 Million (give or take a couple of 10k's)

WHM and BLM would be higher, considering things like Ancient Magic and such.

I'd say that extra 3 million by comparison is an appropriate early adoption tax. I know I had to pay extra for my SCH spells and my PUP attachments when they were new. Fun fact -- there are already alternative methods to get your spells, you just don't know what they are yet because, news flash, the Expansion has only been out for a week.

If you didn't notice, the Colonization Reive system unlocks new areas as you progress through it. New areas means new enemies -- we haven't even seen any of the new Beastmen yet as far as I know. Once we cut through to those enemies, I can guarantee you that there will be ways to get every spell on the list.

Right now, however, just like with every other Mage/Additional item dependent job you're paying extra to get everything early --- that's your decision. If you want to get them an alternative way, you're going to have to wait until we find them.

Hell, the wikis don't even list the NPCs we already know have spells yet -- how would you expect people to already know where to find them as drops?



Is this the first time you guys are around for a new expansion...? Hell no -- you should not get all of your spells for 2 million gil -- not when a SCH/WHM/RDM/BLM have to pay more than double and often triple that WITH REDUCED AH PRICES.

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your comparison is flawed in the way that: WHM and BLM scrolls can be all obtained by farming specific mobs, or questing them.
where as GEO: has to buy the scroll to even get the Geo___-spell from a Geomantic Reservoir.

I have hunted the new Beastmans for 2 hours +, they dont drop any GEO-spell-scrolls whatsoever

the comparision to COR rolls is justified but the price difference is HUGELY different, i remember the most expensiv roll being like 200k, whereas the last 8 or 10 GEO scrolls are 400k+ upwards?

So yeah SE either needs to make those expensiv spells drop off from mobs, or cut the price down by around 50% or more

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Originally Posted by Horadrim

...?

Really? You realize we're at a point where you can solo dynamis, farm currency, and AFK for days to come back to millions of gil, right? Between that, selling KI's for Abyssea (anyone building an empy weapon mercs more than they farm, there just aren't enough hours in the day for farming that shit yourself.), merc'ing brews, and actual players who run FC parties -- plenty of people are rolling in so much gil that the blinker scenario was an irrelevancy to them. Frankly I wish I had known about it.. >_> Could have used that gil to merc my thaumas...

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What Mighto said...

Blinkers made gil outta thin air, and buying scrolls from an npc takes that gil out of circulation.

Your examples have to do with gil already in circulation and it doesnt remove it from circulation.

In BG someone posted some pics of Skirmish:
http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/g...ac3afdfcd0.jpg
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/115...=1#post5667107

I'd prefer something alittle bit more thematic. Much like acquiring GEO, I'd rather go to a ??? and pop and appropriate NM elemental type to kill. Not for all the spells but some of them. The drop would include a geo-scroll

Alternatively, an certain % of "knowledge" can be gain during weather effects and/or enviorments. Killing X amont of mobs or buffin X amount of times during storms can unlocking level appropriate spells and spelltypes.

For example, accuracy (is lightening based). During lightening storms...casting "lightening type" spells increase the % rating.

A final alternate method is the "caring method". Feeding a Lupons either crystals, feedwell orbs(synergy items), or the trial items(can't think of them atm)...gains a certain affinity. Think affinity level. Each elemental affinity level can coincide with the level of the spell. Example. a lvl 5 spells require you feed Lupon to affinity level 5.
As an aside. Affinity level could have an affect on the effect of the lupons spell directly.

just ideas I'll pullling from my butt.

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Originally Posted by Covenant

I'd prefer something alittle bit more thematic. Much like acquiring GEO, I'd rather go to a ??? and pop and appropriate NM elemental type to kill. Not for all the spells but some of them. The drop would include a geo-scroll

Alternatively, an certain % of "knowledge" can be gain during weather effects and/or enviorments. Killing X amont of mobs or buffin X amount of times during storms can unlocking level appropriate spells and spelltypes.

For example, accuracy (is lightening based). During lightening storms...casting "lightening type" spells increase the % rating.

A final alternate method is the "caring method". Feeding a Lupons either crystals, feedwell orbs(synergy items), or the trial items(can't think of them atm)...gains a certain affinity. Think affinity level. Each elemental affinity level can coincide with the level of the spell. Example. a lvl 5 spells require you feed Lupon to affinity level 5.
As an aside. Affinity level could have an affect on the effect of the lupons spell directly.

just ideas I'll pullling from my butt.

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I had imagined stuff like this too. At least they went part of the way with the GEO spells. The acquisition is simpler than what you've suggested, but at least the trips take me to more obscure parts of some zones. And the little skill up opportunity is a cute touch.

I'm glad to see the spells are dropping in Skirmish. imo SE handled this well. People can still obtain the scrolls, or sell them, but without the 5 million price tag that accompanied the BLM 76+ scrolls in their first few months, due to the NPCs providing caps. I wouldn't complain if the NPC prices came down, but overall this seems fine to me.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Nothing from NPCs are as high priced as these new spells. So nothing is really a completely fair comparison.

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KIDS DEEZ DAYS

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Migran

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

KIDS DEEZ DAYS

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Migran

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Technically these are higher in price but also craftable. The point hes trying to make I think is that nothing that isnt obtainable by alternate means which is where the unfair comparison comes into play

Nothing people would actually buy from an NPC is that high of a price, the person who buys anything for above 100K from that NPC needs to be shot in the foot.

The point was basically what Elphy just said. Even if these can be gotten elsewhere though it makes little difference, scrolls and the like have been high priced in NPCs before, but these prices are far above their normal prices, same with that of dice which are similar to scrolls in how they are used a single time to learn it.

Those Subligars could actually turn you a profit when they were introduced back during the inflation where 3 Cashmere Threads were good money.

sooo... yah. Maybe today its a bad buy but not back then :3, and I hold that as applicable to this topic, since Geo Spells were just released.

(And theres already evidence of them dropping elsewhere, Skirmish, so its not far-fetched to think they might have another drop source too... Maybe some of those new mage-beastmen?)

As I said, different type of item anyways, armor vs usable scroll like item, prices differ on them.

I know, I'm just saying we're burning down their forums a bit too soon over this, as we don't even know if these things drop from Nakuuls, the new beastmen.. Nothing... Fella in OP didn't even know they came from Skirmish because its new info...

Its just a tad early to assume the prices are absurd, most scrolls prices are a bit absurd if they don't have other locations to obtain them, SE just went full crazy with these, probably because the come from other sources.

If not, I'll help you Firaga the place.

Right, I know what your saying, I am just saying it is a bit messed up on both sides of it. On one side, they do come from other things, so its not that big of a deal, at the same time, they come from Skirmish so far, which as far as I know is hard to access, its not like it comes from Abyssea where everyone gets it from boxes and the price will be 10k. I agree we can not simply condemn them now, but at the same time, it is worth some concern.

Skirmish is about as hard to get into as VW fights were when they first came out. You can't get to the higher tier bosses because no one had the completions done (and they weren't released yet), and you only had a select number of stones available to you. The fact that Bayld is so heavily used here implies that there will be an abundance of bayld eventually, but as of right now we only have so much. Cruor was hard to come by once too. Now people are brewing stuff for fun because they have too much Cruor. Skirmish will be no different.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

KIDS DEEZ DAYS

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Migran

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I snorted.

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Originally Posted by Horadrim

WHM and BLM would be higher, considering things like Ancient Magic and such.

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Early adoption tax is right. I cry whenever I see Comet for less than 100k.... since I paid over 2 million for it back in the fall of 2011.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

Early adoption tax is right. I cry whenever I see Comet for less than 100k.... since I paid over 2 million for it back in the fall of 2011.

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You'd think after 10 years people would accept that some people have seen this process more than once, but meh. I grabbed all of the spells under 300k and I'm waiting until I see more drop via Skirmish or find mobs who drop them.

People who wanted Meteor when it was first released paid 30-50 million gil for it.

People who want all the GEO spells as soon as they are released pay 8 mil for the lot.

I don't see the issue.

I personally don't see the ideology in making players take an "early adoption tax" for a job starting out. I never agreed with that, even with the past jobs. Puppetmaster is a good example of such a "tax", yet in the same expansion Blue Mage was balanced so that you had access to abilities as long as you had the appropriate Blue Magic skill.

I don't think it's necessary and it feels like an arbitrary rule simply based on past dealings with jobs being released. Rare spells like Meteor, Arise, and even slightly more common but albeit rare spells were released well after a job was released. The problem I see with Geomancer is it is a job with a yet defined role, as is most new jobs. SE will state their vision but example such as Ninja will show the playerbase will use it where it's needed.

With a good deal of the good debilitating effects that they advertised about the job locked, it leaves Geomancer out in the cold and takes longer for people to test the spells and abilities to their maximum to provide proper feedback for the job to get adjustments.

In my opinion, the current spells they have I don't see justifying the rarity, nor do I think it should take several months to a year for the job to get access to abilities released at the start. I see the value in adding spells that are rare at first, and if it were only like two Indi- and two -ra spells, I would have understood it better and found value in it the pursuit of completing my list.

The job might be newly released but especially given the rate of experience gain by all jobs, there is no logic in such a large roadblock. Rune Fencer was released with this job and for the most part it has no immediate hindrances in the same manner. What would justify it an "early adoption tax" on Geomancer but not with Rune Fencer?

I would be curious to hear of players who are pro- "early adoption tax" to newly released jobs. Who play Geomancer and attempt to use it beyond leveling to 99 in wait of updates and spells being discovered. I'm not against seeing it differently, but I see no logic in it upon job release. (bolded for emphasis not to be cut apart to say I'm against rare spells at all)

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Originally Posted by Rwolf

Good points.

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I think the early adoption tax for BLU lasted for years in the sense that you had to have sea access to learn essential higher tier spells. I'm not saying I minded that, but there was a different kind of "balance" that just didn't involve gil. Also, after 1/80 on Refueling I was ready to pay someone 8 million gil to learn it if I could!

I thought they had stopped the early adoption tax with SCH and DNC though. SCH may have hurt had you not leveled mage jobs before, but if you had it was cheap, at least spell-wise. I loved that the ultimate SCH spells involved a five minute trip to an NPC when Arise and Meteor were 50 million gil ... lol

I agree with your point that Meteor and Arise are not really comparable here because they were billed as ultimate spells for already extremely useful and powerful jobs. Also, both spells are very nice, but neither are really essential for high performance on either job. We still don't know where GEO will ultimately fit in, but Frailty and Malaise seem pretty important, and I wouldn't set foot in Abyssea without Blizarra II. All three fall in the 500k+ early adoption price. However...

While I agree an early adoption tax shouldn't go on terribly long, the GEO one just doesn't seem that bad to me. I waited a bit on the 500k+ ones and just today grabbed a few of them for 100k each on AH. A few weeks into the expansion wasn't too long to wait for me, especially since I don't yet have a compelling reason to use the job for any of the activities I still do.

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Originally Posted by Merton9999

I think the early adoption tax for BLU lasted for years in the sense that you had to have sea access to learn essential higher tier spells. I'm not saying I minded that, but there was a different kind of "balance" that just didn't involve gil. Also, after 1/80 on Refueling I was ready to pay someone 8 million gil to learn it if I could!

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I agree with that and I actually like that kind of balance. Although, none of the spells gained in Al'Taieu made you underperform. They are great definitely, especially Disseverment and Actinic Burst. But you still did good damage with spells like Frenetic Rip and Hysteric Barrage. Which was my bread and butter until I had access to Al'Taieu. I also feel your pain, it took me an actual 40 hours combined to learn cocoon of all things. I thought all the blue magic spells were that way and almost quit the job.

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Originally Posted by Merton9999

While I agree an early adoption tax shouldn't go on terribly long, the GEO one just doesn't seem that bad to me. I waited a bit on the 500k+ ones and just today grabbed a few of them for 100k each on AH. A few weeks into the expansion wasn't too long to wait for me, especially since I don't yet have a compelling reason to use the job for any of the activities I still do.

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That's interesting they are 100k each in the AH on your server. On Bismarck, we haven't had any of them sold or in stock. If they were on the AH to some consistency by now, I would think that is good balance. I can understand an early adoption price as inflation from sheer demand (such as the Petrified Log price spike). But after a couple weeks, it should be evening out in price. 2-3 million spent early sure. 8 million to start? not so much.

In my opinion, to be an effective class players should already be able to contemplate a compelling reason to use the job for any of the activities they do. Or at least knowing what the job can fully do, can offer suggestions to bring Geomancer to being desirable for events. There's a lot more discussion with Rune Fencer and it's capabilities because it's easier to bring to it's current maximum.

I think a solution would be just to alleviate these spells in procurement so more appear on the AH. For example, possible reward from reives as well. Or specify it to lair reives which are more rarely as an incentive to do them with higher loot.

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Originally Posted by Rwolf

That's interesting they are 100k each in the AH on your server. On Bismarck, we haven't had any of them sold or in stock. If they were on the AH to some consistency by now, I would think that is good balance. I can understand an early adoption price as inflation from sheer demand (such as the Petrified Log price spike). But after a couple weeks, it should be evening out in price. 2-3 million spent early sure. 8 million to start? not so much.

In my opinion, to be an effective class players should already be able to contemplate a compelling reason to use the job for any of the activities they do. Or at least knowing what the job can fully do, can offer suggestions to bring Geomancer to being desirable for events. There's a lot more discussion with Rune Fencer and it's capabilities because it's easier to bring to it's current maximum.

I think a solution would be just to alleviate these spells in procurement so more appear on the AH. For example, possible reward from reives as well. Or specify it to lair reives which are more rarely as an incentive to do them with higher loot.

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You know, after I read this I was afraid I just got lucky for a day. But either there are some altruistic souls on Quetz or people are spamming Skirmish here because I just got 4 more (indi- and -ra) for 100k each and a couple others for a bit more. I'm guessing it won't be long before this happens on other servers, and I'm probably dumb for not waiting on an even larger price drop.

I certainly wouldn't mind if scrolls became even more readily available through other means, like you suggested. But even if we look beyond early adoption, the history of FFXI is filled with expensive spell prices for essentials. Raise III and Erase I remember being bad for a while, though luckily there was some spam activity when I leveled WHM. Phalanx is still pretty bad for new RDM/PLD/RUN. I don't think these fit the OP's original request, though, since there are other ways to obtain them besides gil. But it turns out that's abundantly true for GEO too now, at least on my server.

I think people are taking the "early adoption tax" concept too literally.

It isn't really a thing people go into the game thinking "omfg, let's make them pay!!" it is the rush mentality that comes from trying to do things as early as possible. Everything is more expensive when the demand is high -- and the Early Adoption Tax is just a side effect of the vast majority of people trying to do things the quickest way possible.

The simple fact of the matter is that GEO is a brand new job from a brand new area and all of the most expensive spells have been shown to have alternative drop points. Just like I can't complain about Skirmish items being expensive this early, it is asinine for people to complain about there not being an alternative way to acquire them when they haven't given the economy enough time to work properly.

Just like how, in real life, you'd call someone stupid for having bought a Wii for $2,000 just because it was new, sold out, and they HAD TO HAVE IT NYAO. It is asinine to complain about a problem which will solve itself if you give it time and be patient. Just wait for them to be in stock and problem solved. I've already seen -Ra II spells and higher level Indi spells showing up in the Asura AH for around 200k less than the NPC price. Demanding SE add more and more places for the stuff to come from when we've already seen them dropping from different events is silly...

That's like if I had demanded they add Aerns to non-sea areas back when I was BLU just because I didn't have Sea access...

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Originally Posted by Horadrim

I think people are taking the "early adoption tax" concept too literally.

It isn't really a thing people go into the game thinking "omfg, let's make them pay!!" it is the rush mentality that comes from trying to do things as early as possible. Everything is more expensive when the demand is high -- and the Early Adoption Tax is just a side effect of the vast majority of people trying to do things the quickest way possible.

The simple fact of the matter is that GEO is a brand new job from a brand new area and all of the most expensive spells have been shown to have alternative drop points. Just like I can't complain about Skirmish items being expensive this early, it is asinine for people to complain about there not being an alternative way to acquire them when they haven't given the economy enough time to work properly.

Just like how, in real life, you'd call someone stupid for having bought a Wii for $2,000 just because it was new, sold out, and they HAD TO HAVE IT NYAO. It is asinine to complain about a problem which will solve itself if you give it time and be patient. Just wait for them to be in stock and problem solved. I've already seen -Ra II spells and higher level Indi spells showing up in the Asura AH for around 200k less than the NPC price. Demanding SE add more and more places for the stuff to come from when we've already seen them dropping from different events is silly...

That's like if I had demanded they add Aerns to non-sea areas back when I was BLU just because I didn't have Sea access...

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This. I know part of it is the way people level these jobs but majority of people who are 99 geo now simply abyssea burned the job to 99 anyway. To actually have to put in some effort to acquire the spells seems entirely reasonable and by effort I mean a week or two tops of casually farming gil.