So, after getting to stack 2x Runes and using Lunge, I can see what Lunge is, a hate tool. BUT The recast to be a hate tool may be just a bit too long. (Yes, I realize the damage it can do and how reducing recast could be "broken")
Secondly, the job has no shield, no heavy armor, yet it's referred to as a "tank". Do I think RUN should get heavy armor, like PLD does? No, I do not. We can get quite a bit of good gear at 99, including a bit of Damage reduction/Physical damage reduction, and we have defensive magic, Protect I-IV, Stoneskin, Phalanx, and even the new Foil for special attacks. We also have A+ parrying skill, which is where I've become disappointed, I don't exactly know what Inquartata does or the rate at which it does it, but I do know the maximum Parrying rate is 20%. I feel that for RUN to be an effective and feasible tank this will need to be raised...drastically. I understand RUN is meant to be a tank against magic, but there aren't really mobs that ONLY use magic, RUN needs enough survivability to withstand the physical swings between a mob's spells.
I know I'm comparing RUN to PLD here, but PLD can get a hard cap of 65% block rate, 100% with Ochain, under certain conditions. I'm not suggesting we raise Parrying rate to 100%, I'd suggest a rate of around 55-60%.
So far, I really like this job, I like the way it works, I like the idea behind it, I want to see a new tank job thrive, be successful, and have a place in a party, but unless RUN can survive the physical hits it takes, I think it's doomed to become a back-up tank/DD/support, and we have enough of those.
Edit: It appears Inquartata does increase parrying rate to some extent. I'm neither capped at Parrying, nor good with math, so how much it increases, I don't know.
Rune Fencer Suggestions
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03-31-2013, 09:01 AMKojoRune Fencer Suggestions
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03-31-2013, 11:01 AMXecil
Stack AGI and sub something with evasion. /MNK will be very viable after the next update.
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03-31-2013, 08:53 PMKojoI don't really think /MNK would be that great of a sub for RUN. Was gonna do /SAM, but there's that issue of Seigan vs Flash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xecil
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04-01-2013, 05:54 AMMittenz
Thus far with my experiences RUN simply just can't tank, the main hate tool is flash (lunge 3min reuse with it seemingly affected by the damage to hate reduction), sub options with it being a paper tank are pretty much Sam and nin and as far as magic goes from the testing I have done it appears to unlike rampart most of RUN abilities affect magic SPELLS and not magic based tp moves (tested using dolls and meltdown as well as pixies and their wind based tp moves).
To compair this job to pld is a joke and an insult. Paladin gets decent parry a near 100% block rate and can get 85% mdt with aegis. Sure it evades like a brick glued to a wall but mobs these days don't bat an eye to evasion tanks.
PLD has no issue holding 5-8 mobs in this new expansion on RUN I can't even hold 2 Tough grasshoppers using a decent evasion build /nin or /Sam.
RUN needs sme serious upgrades if this is supposed to be the next "tank" as SE claims -
04-01-2013, 12:36 PMKojo
Thinking set Parrying to scale in Parrying rate with Inquartata as you level up, adding several levels to Inquartata to boost Parrying rate to 55%-60%.
New Spell: Riposte
Kinda like Reprisal but with a Parry instead of a Block.
Also, Foil seems to be VERY short in duration, I mean TOO short. -
04-01-2013, 01:30 PMDemon6324236That already exists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kojo
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04-01-2013, 01:45 PMKojo
Should be easy to do, then.
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04-01-2013, 04:39 PMTennotsukai
I agree that something should be done with Run in improving it. I was thinking that merits/gear will help, but so far without Run isnt all that imo. Foil needs to last longer too. Perhaps, some more Run specific spells as well.
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04-02-2013, 01:33 AMsaevel
Lol
RUN's main "hate tool" is neither Lunge nor lol (seriously fcking LOL) flash. It's smacking the target upside the head. Flash is just for initial VE hate spike, after 30~60s it's utterly worthless for hate building. Lunge is good because it deals damage, at three runes it's basically a free WS worth of hate every 3min. 3min makes it unreliable for maintaining sustained hate, hitting things generates hate on every swing.
tldr: if you want to hold hate learn to hit sh1t hard and fast. -
04-02-2013, 05:44 AMMittenzDid you miss the last update where damage now produces far more negligible hate compared to job abilities ? On top of this have you even played RUN... do you expect a job designed as a tank to keep up damage faster than a job made to DD ? That must be the way to fix tanking why didn't anyone ever see it like you just have the PLDs all come with greatswords equipped ! But craziness and sarcasm aside a tank class will never keep up with damage class in terms of output you need other ways to generate enmity to keep you above the damage especially now where 10s of hate and the DD is now back lined for 3-5min.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
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04-02-2013, 07:23 AMVolkaiExcept that's a /ja, not a spell. <.<Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon6324236
Keep in mind that Rune Fencer is supposed to be more of a vs. Magic tank than a vs. Physical tank... as far as I know you can't parry or block spells. So, I have to ask... how are you guys faring when you go toe-to-toe with Elementals? -
04-02-2013, 07:34 AMSpankWustler
In no particular order:
Every job ability that Rune Fencer has produces decent Enmity, but nothing amazing other than the SP which is unsurprisingly an analogue to Invincible, look somewhere in this cluster-cuss for exact numbers. I don't recall any RUN abilities having the 1 CE that is standard for many job abilities, they all provide more.
Foil has a more favorable duration/recast ratio than Migawari, and the lower duration/recast combo is generally favorable for that type of ability as well. I don't know if Foil has a good duration and recast, but it's better than a comparable spell. Sadly, Foil can be overwritten by Evasion Down effects. It can also overwrite Evasion Down effects, but that's hardly any comfort.
I don't think anybody knows what Inquartata even does right now. I feel bad for the guy who dedicates his time to finding out, since it is most likely related to the activation rate of a defensive skill. It might raise the Parrying cap and it might not. Although, I will say that nobody having an informed estimate for what Inquartata actually does and nobody even reporting horribly overblown and unrealistic effects due to wandering eyeballs probably says a great deal about how effective the trait is.
Being more or less made out of unique job abilities, I imagine Rune Fencer is really, really hurt by its current lack of merits. -
04-02-2013, 08:13 AMProthscar
Already discussed this with you, but transferring my critique here.
-Riposte spell idea is great. Adds another unique spell for RUN and serves as a functional defensive and offensive tool. 3~5 minute recast with a 120~180s duration would be good. Increase parry rate by, say, 5% per every 100 enhancing magic skill or something that breaks the cap.
-Inquartata enhancement would be wonderful, having it auto cap parrying at 20% would be ideal though, none of this 55% business. A 1/5 chance at negating physical attacks is adequate. Further enhancements can be stuck onto the mythic weapon or whatever RUN ends up getting.
-Additionally, I'd like to see RUN's Tactical Parry get bumped up to Tactial Parry IV rather than III. It isn't a big deal, but I like symmetry.
This would let RUN take a few more physical hits without overpowering its physical mitigation abilities. In its current state, RUN has very little in terms of physical mitigation, and I'd challenge anyone to find a monster whose only method of attack is magic. -
04-02-2013, 08:25 AMDemon6324236http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...cess_Jelly.JPGQuote:
Originally Posted by Prothscar
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04-02-2013, 08:41 AMProthscar
Allow me to rephrase; any relevant monster that you'd need a tank for.
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04-02-2013, 10:25 AMCljader1This is not true, run's wards work on Magic spells and magic based tp moves if you have the right rune up. I did a test on birds in abbysea misareaux and Liement Ward completely absorbed bird tp move "Wing cutter" and restored HP, to do this i use liement ward and gelus runes. Run 2hr also nullifies magic and magic based tp moves, however with the 2hr you dont have to have any runes up to block damageQuote:
Originally Posted by Mittenz
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04-02-2013, 11:26 AMDemon6324236Hey, its something, but I got your point, I just wanted to be a smartass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prothscar
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04-04-2013, 07:10 PMTimeMage
So far, Inquartata seems to provide a fixed 10% bonus to parry, effectively giving 15% parry rate againstanything remotely relevant, and capping parry at 35% instead of 25% (it the cap is actually 20%, then I'll have to keep parsing on Adoulin content to see if that 15% I first parsed is actually a low sample 20%).
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/115...=1#post5662029
Oh, and RUN definitely needs a boost against physical attacks. On Adoulin, I'm parsing 15% evasion at most, and my defense with Emboldened Prot IV I think it's around 525. Too many hits pass through the evasion/parry, and those that pass hit too hard. Without any self-healing abilities (other than Regen IV, which is nice, but just that), RUN maybe can tank thanks to its many enmity-generating JAs, but will be a big MP sponge and thus not actually useful in its tanking role.
Suggestions:
- Increase the benefit from Inquartata. 20 to 25% floored parry rate would help a lot.
- Let Embolden work for spells cast by other players: Embolden + Prot V from a WHM/RDM/SCH will give 262 defense instead of 175. That, plus defense food could reduce damage taken to reasonable levels.
- Dramatically increase the evasion of Foil: I've yet to evade a TP move with it. The closer I've been to evade one is getting very low damage from that Chapuli's AoE TP move that moves it like a ninja, which I suspect indicates several hits. I could have avoided some hits, explaining the low damage.
I know comparing with Aegis/Ochain PLDs is not fair, but then again I don't see any PLD without either of those, and they are far, far, far better tanks than we are. I'm not asking to tank an entire Lair Reive like an Ochain PLD can do, god, no. I only want to be able to survive if I link something... because so far, I can kill most Adoulin monsters solo, but it's not easy, and a link means automatic death. -
04-04-2013, 08:27 PMKojo
I think Embolden does work on spells cast by other players. A guy in PT tried it, yesterday.
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04-04-2013, 08:41 PMTimeMageHm, goes against the spell's description, but I'll have to try.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kojo
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04-04-2013, 09:12 PMKojoHonestly, I didn't try myself, but I doubt the guy would lie over something so trivial. But it could've wore off and been a coincidence. What I DO know is that Embolden doesn't work on other people.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeMage
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04-04-2013, 09:17 PMnyheen
ya i think it would be nice if rune get some kinda parry buff.
Seigan third eye type Ability but with parry.
lower the time on some Abilities it seems a bit long. this job got so much potential. the new parry/magic tank. i cant wait to see the new af, merits. and buffs with it. if pup and sch was able to shine then rune will be on the way! -
04-04-2013, 09:45 PMKojoI kinda only use Seigan in emergencies. I try to keep Phalanx up.Quote:
Originally Posted by nyheen
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04-05-2013, 07:34 AMTimeMageI did try it, and it definitely works. The 262 Protect V I got is the living proof of that. Thanks for the heads up!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kojo
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04-06-2013, 04:42 AMYinnythI agree with your assessment of how run is supposed to hold hate, but I disagree with what you think flash is for on the job. Yes, it could be used for that, but it really appears as though SE has designed rune fencer around being a twitch-reflex tank job. Flash to blind the enemy just before he weaponskills your buddy, foil to allow you to dodge WSs if you time it right, liement to absorb incoming massive magic damage, one for all and valiance to save your party from incoming magic damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
Now, I partly agree with the OP and think RUN has a ways to go before they can really prove themselves useful, but I think we should keep in mind the "OSHI-" nature of RUN when suggesting improvements. A big thing I think RUN could benefit from would be a "flash" type spell for magic (drastically lowers an enemy's magic accuracy for a short duration).
Edit: Oh yeah, and more barspells. Barspells out the ass. Barlight, bardark, barsilence, barstun, barterror, bardoom, barcurse, bardeath, barweakened, barbind. Hell, give them a bareverything spell which only lasts 5 seconds, but casts quickly so they can block bad breath. -
04-06-2013, 05:18 AMKojo
Since I got RUN 99, I've been playing around, testing different sub jobs, and I'm currently testing out RUN/MNK, so far I've seen that there isn't much point in /MNK, but the Counter is nice. So, another suggestion; being that RUN is Rune Fencer and there is a "Counter Attack" in fencing, AND RUN is supposed to be a tank, why not give RUN a tier 1 Counter trait? I don't think tier 1 would be broken, as it seems to only be a 10% chance, where SAM's Seigan is a 25% chance.
A Chakra-like healing JA would be nice, too.