DRk Sub will save DRG?

Just seen this -

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Originally Posted by Camate

Regarding Dark Knight

This is a topic that has been discussed in several threads, particularly one about dark knight being too powerful. As was commented during VanaFest, we feel dark knight is becoming powerful, and at the same time decided to put off the adjustments we had looked into at that time. I believe there are many who remember this.
We are currently looking to adjust Desperate Blows and Last Resort.

Currently, the haste cap for equipment and magic is the same for all jobs, but haste from abilities is a separate category outside of this cap, and Desperate Blows is the ability with the highest value of haste.

However, simply reducing the value of Desperate Blows would only cause dark knight to become weaker, so we are considering giving a portion of the total haste effect granted from Desperate Blows to Last Resort, and giving the remaining amount back to Desperate Blows.

• Current
  • Desperate Blows +25%
• Post-adjustment
  • Desperate Blows +10% (*Value with 5 merit points)
  • Last Resort +15%

Simply put, this adjustment will allow you to gain this effect in the case you use dark knight as your support job.
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Could this be the thing DRG desperately needs? If last resort gives 15% bonus to haste that's more than hasso currently gives us and with all the benefits of DRK as a sub job over SAM. For example we would also get DRK's attack boost trait and access to soul eater.

I haven't ever considered DRK as a sub job for anything because it's always either sam for hasso and meditate/sekka, or war for their JA's. And I know that they're still the 2 best options but what do you guys think? Could /DRK with the new last resort be the fix we need? He also mentioned that it's difficult to imagine DRK as a subjob currently, so if they maybe expand a little more past the 15% haste to last resort and possibly lower the 3rd attack boost trait by a couple of lvls, then maybe it could come very close to /war but with the added 15% haste in every 3 out of 5 mins attacking.

personally i'd like drk, it's just the right amount of offensive spells without having to sacrifice mele damage by subbing /blm, weapon bash is great

also don't forget 15% is with 5 merit's put into desperate blows.

Nah desperate blows would be changed to 10% (with 5 merits) while last resort has standard 15% with no merits still allowing 75+ drk to have the same 25% haste from both but giving a portion of that available when used as sub unlike before where it was only available with merits in desperate blows. The 15% would be generally available to anyone using Last Resort from what I can tell.

Would be interesting. Currently DRG has to choose between /SAM for Hasso / Store TP II and /WAR for Berserk / DA. /DRK could give 15% haste along with 15% Attack Boost for 3/5. Arcane Circle would be interesting if fighting Arcana (3min damage boost), otherwise the dark magic spells are largely useless.

In addition to damage stuffs, Dark Knight sub would provide a multipurpose wyvern. There's never been a sub-job for Dragoon that provided substantial damage buffs and a multipurpose wyvern before.

Stone I will also only take .5 seconds to cast, and provide a very small amount of TP, if all the planned changes come through. So, the vital act of not dying won't interfere with the vital act of hitting stuff with stuff that much.

Given, this is all very situational and hard to look at on paper, but it seems like a decent boost in utility. The ability to heal itself over and over might also make Souleater viable for Dragoon in situations other jobs probably wouldn't want to use it?

last resort is a 3 mn buff/5mn recast while hasso can be kept fulltime.
that's also assuming that the 15% haste isn't nerf for subjobs.

so i guess wait and see.

Yea on paper it's really hit or miss, it's gonna be a game of wait and see like you said although there is potential for it to be an improvement. Last resort is only 3 mins and you would lose the store tp bonus so there are downsides but, depending on other possible changes it could be very promising. For example they could make it so that merits applied for subjob. Unlikely but that would mean that the recast of last resort would be lower than 5mins meaning less of a downtime on haste, which we could make up for slightly with souleater.

I do still think that DRG needs to be fixed as a whole though, it's been left as it is for years with no major updates other than the standard change to merits that every job received regardless, but at least this might be a step in the right direction. Anythings nice when you wait for so long!

I'd only recently started playing my DRG again after a very very long stint of being SAM only. It's hard to argue that /SAM is really one of the best sub jobs offered to DRG, but really (as it's been mentioned on this board previously) DRG needs its own native attack boost ability. On good days I can keep up with the relic DDs on my SAM with a measly empyrean weapon, but I would attribute that to having the massive attack boost from Berserk, which as of right now is the de facto sub for SAM. Now when I try to compete with my DRG I feel as if I have a hard time comparing attack values to the rest of the spread of heavy 2 handed DDs.

To try to reinforce my point, lets look at some common job combinations:
DRK/SAM is allowed an attack boost from Last Resort, STR and Ability haste from Hasso and Desperate Blows
DRK/WAR is allowed to double dip in attack boosts.
SAM/WAR is given Hasso and Berserk to nearly the same effect as DRK/SAM
WAR/SAM - See Above.
MNK/WAR is pretty much the standard nowadays as well, and is granted Berserk from sub and impetus, while not necessarily a traditional attack boost, it is still an attack boost nonetheless, as well as a 15 sec cooldown for Boost.

When looking at DRG/WAR or DRG/SAM it's one or the other, sacrifice Hasso for Berserk or vice versa. The update to Last Resort basically gives DRG everything listed above, some JA haste, and attack boost. So really, all my complaints are addressed, but still I feel like opportunity cost for DRG in terms of support job is much higher than DRK, SAM, MNK or WAR are given a lot more tools at their disposal. Would it be a lot to ask for to give DRG its own native attack boost ability? or does having 2 incredibly powerful jumps mean to put DRG on par with the rest? or does the choice of choosing a mage sub giving us a defensive wyvern put DRG in a whole different class? /DRK would give us a hybrid wyvern, but sets healing breath trigger point at 33%, which with Last Resort makes for a very dangerously low point for an emergency cure, even with HP gear.

Edit: Let's also not forget the pure defensive utility that /SAM provides. Seigan + Third Eye is a life saver. Defender from /WAR does nearly nothing, let's be honest. DRK has dread spikes, and the freedom to choose between /wAR or /SAM. SAM has it natively, and much like DRG, at the current state of the game, why would WAR sub anything but SAM? I'm sure most WARs would sub WAR if they could. Sure DRG has Super Jump, but only every 3 minutes if they meritted jump/high jump.

DRG/DRK is terribad. Don't forget it's a 3min duration versus hasso which never wears off. Also we'd lose Seigan and our 5hit builds are ruined. The only way /DRK would work for DRG is if they graciously give DRG 2 tiers of Store TP(wouldn't mind since our traits are lacking)

SAM/DRK is gonna be stupidly broken. 3 forms of stun, more attack, 25% attack speed...

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

DRG/DRK is terribad. Don't forget it's a 3min duration versus hasso which never wears off. Also we'd lose Seigan and our 5hit builds are ruined. The only way /DRK would work for DRG is if they graciously give DRG 2 tiers of Store TP(wouldn't mind since our traits are lacking)

SAM/DRK is gonna be stupidly broken. 3 forms of stun, more attack, 25% attack speed...

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More attack from JT, but less attack during the 3 mins of LR instead of Berserk.

It depends what you're fighting and whether you're constantly engaged for more than 3 mins.

And don't forget that the big clincher here is added versatility from the multi-purpose wyvern. OK so my HP has to drop to ~600 instead of ~900 to activate breath, but that's still not the end of the world.

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More attack from JT, but less attack during the 3 mins of LR instead of Berserk.

It depends what you're fighting and whether you're constantly engaged for more than 3 mins.

And don't forget that the big clincher here is added versatility from the multi-purpose wyvern. OK so my HP has to drop to ~600 instead of ~900 to activate breath, but that's still not the end of the world.

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I can't tell if your post is sarcastic or not because for one, we don't get any added attack from JT because we get Attack Bonus II at 91. Secondly, Berserk should not be brought up in this argument because /WAR has no value for DRG compared to /SAM unless we're talking about VW, where Meditate and Store TP are rendered useless due to Atmacites/Regain/Wing spam and where Seigan is useless due to Fanatic's. Maybe for soloing 75 content, I could see /DRK having some novelty, but really, it doesn't compete very much. For endgame /DRK would pretty much never be used because we would have no defense at all, seigan is extremely valuable to us, and don't forget we'd lose our 5 hit if we're /DRK which weakens our DoT. 15% Haste for 3 minutes with 2 minutes of no haste during cooldown is vastly inferior to 10% haste that never wears off. Even if the fight is a 3minute one like ADL or something, you'd lose out on your 5 hit and probably come about roughly even to /SAM maybe due to fewer WS from no meditate/Sekkanoki. This will be even more prominent once they nerf Embrava's TP Regain, which will give the edge to /SAM for more WS rather than how it was previously where everyone had 300% from Embrava. Last Resort can also be Dispelled, at least Hasso is a 60 second recast and lasts for 2 hours. There's just no way /DRK would out damage /SAM really, /SAM offers more survivability, better traits, better job abilities and more sustainability in the long run. Last Resort/Souleater can't hold a candle to Hasso/Seigan/Third Eye/Meditate/Sekkanoki/Store TP.

/RDM is probably a better solo sub actually since Haste is a 15% bonus and you get 15% attack bonus by Dia IIing your target, also nets you Shell II/Protect III, enspells and Ice Spikes. /DRK is and always will be trash.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

I can't tell if your post is sarcastic or not because for one, we don't get any added attack from JT because we get Attack Bonus II at 91. Secondly, Berserk should not be brought up in this argument because /WAR has no value for DRG compared to /SAM unless we're talking about VW, where Meditate and Store TP are rendered useless due to Atmacites/Regain/Wing spam and where Seigan is useless due to Fanatic's. Maybe for soloing 75 content, I could see /DRK having some novelty, but really, it doesn't compete very much. For endgame /DRK would pretty much never be used because we would have no defense at all, seigan is extremely valuable to us, and don't forget we'd lose our 5 hit if we're /DRK which weakens our DoT. 15% Haste for 3 minutes with 2 minutes of no haste during cooldown is vastly inferior to 10% haste that never wears off. Even if the fight is a 3minute one like ADL or something, you'd lose out on your 5 hit and probably come about roughly even to /SAM maybe due to fewer WS from no meditate/Sekkanoki. This will be even more prominent once they nerf Embrava's TP Regain, which will give the edge to /SAM for more WS rather than how it was previously where everyone had 300% from Embrava. Last Resort can also be Dispelled, at least Hasso is a 60 second recast and lasts for 2 hours. There's just no way /DRK would out damage /SAM really, /SAM offers more survivability, better traits, better job abilities and more sustainability in the long run. Last Resort/Souleater can't hold a candle to Hasso/Seigan/Third Eye/Meditate/Sekkanoki/Store TP.

/RDM is probably a better solo sub actually since Haste is a 15% bonus and you get 15% attack bonus by Dia IIing your target, also nets you Shell II/Protect III, enspells and Ice Spikes. /DRK is and always will be trash.

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i think his post was about

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

SAM/DRK is gonna be stupidly broken. 3 forms of stun, more attack, 25% attack speed...

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sam get less attack, loose DA, get 12.5% haste that is useless in magic capped fight because they already cap total DR.
only use is low man (no brd) or to stay haste capped while under seigan.

and DRG/DRK offer hybrid wyvern

No he was talking about DRG/DRK, not my reference to SAM/DRK because he goes on to say in that same post:

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And don't forget that the big clincher here is added versatility from the multi-purpose wyvern. OK so my HP has to drop to ~600 instead of ~900 to activate breath, but that's still not the end of the world.

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I stand by my flame.

Yes, I was talking about DRG/DRK. I actually didn't realise that we got att bonus 2 at 91, so I recall that statement.

However in your 'flame' you say:

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Secondly, Berserk should not be brought up in this argument because /WAR has no value for DRG compared to /SAM unless we're talking about VW, where Meditate and Store TP are rendered useless due to Atmacites/Regain/Wing spam and where Seigan is useless due to Fanatic's.

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It's as if you think noone even does VW anymore. They do, so it's still a valid argument, and /DRK WILL be an option for VW.

Next you say:

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Even if the fight is a 3minute one like ADL or something, you'd lose out on your 5 hit and probably come about roughly even to /SAM maybe due to fewer WS from no meditate/Sekkanoki.

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Which is wrong. With the OAT lance that you rave about, you can easily get 45 STP in gear for your 5-hit if you have phorcy's head and legs. The only issue is that they would have to be equipped for jumps, losing out on the other buffs from the gear you would have equipped (particularly 10% crit damage from emp +2 legs).

However, in the situations where you COULD use /DRK (fanatics or perfect defense scenarios, or soloing) you can use souleater to boost your damage, and just cast poison (stone after update) to have your wyvern keep topping your HP up every time it dips below (in my case, as I said in my earlier post) ~600 HP.

Maybe you're not prepared to accept that it will have any viable use, and that's fine, each to their own. I will at least be giving it a go, and decide once the changes have been released.

The crux of my argument is that no matter how you slice it, /DRK won't out damage /SAM in any place except VW and even in VW, /WAR is probably better since you're spamming wings for TP and have Regain so your haste doesn't matter too much.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

The crux of my argument is that no matter how you slice it, /DRK won't out damage /SAM in any place except VW and even in VW, /WAR is probably better since you're spamming wings for TP and have Regain so your haste doesn't matter too much.

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In this case, you are quite possibly correct. Until we can parse /war vs /drk in VW we can only speculate. However, in a low-man situation, where you have haste from a mage, but are paired with 1 or more other DDs that are taking more damage than you, your /drk mutli-purpose wyvern helps out with healing, whilst not damaging your output like /rdm /sch /blu or /whm would.

It all depends on other changes that SE are going to introduce, if any that would specifically help DRG such as tier 3 merits. For example, if they gave us a concept that was brought up in a different post and gave us save TP as a job trait, we would gain a lot more from changing to a different sub. We could also get some sort of ability that would allow for 2 mins of haste to compensate for the down time on LR. Very unlikely I know but after thinking over it, /DRK on it's own won't cut it, however if there are any other changes which is what I would expect from plans they have announced, anythings possible.