I want to be able to deal more magic damage while on BLM than I currently am able. Even with the same amount of support as any other 2 handed weapon wielding job I cannot come anywhere as close to dealing the same amount of damage. I wouldn't mind if I had to deal less damage all at once, if I were able to deal more magic damage over time. Even if I try to get into close combat to deal damage with a staff in addition to damage with magic I cannot even come close to WAR DRK DRG MNK on account of my abysmal weaponskill repertoire. BLM simply isn't fun the way it used to be, and that's not because my preferences have changed.
Another problem I have is that mage gear is really bad compared to melee gear. The amount of status resistance, damage taken, and haste gear is just atrocious. I also think it's silly that on the Ares' Cuirass +1 they have say STR +16 VIT +16 Attack +6%. Meanwhile morrigan's robe +1 gets INT +12 MND +12 STR +12 and a static amount of magic attack +13. Is it really so game breaking to add Magic attack +6%? Gear that clearly favors heavy melee and support abilities that do more for melee damage than magic damage is upsetting to someone who wants to cast big fire balls and devastating thunderstorms etc.
Magic Damage is Weak
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12-14-2012, 05:43 AMTptn937Magic Damage is Weak
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12-17-2012, 09:15 PMInfidi
What gear set are you using for nuking in? I get consistent damage outside of abyssea(I'm too lazy ATM to get a MACC set or fast cast set) and a crap ton inside abyssea with the right atmas. In assuming you're meaning outside. ^^ Neo Nyzule offers the best nuking gear I've seen so far.
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12-17-2012, 10:31 PMMirage
And with that gear, how much damage can you deal over the course of 10 minutes, compared to a melee DD in the same time?
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12-17-2012, 10:52 PMEconomizerDon't forget Mage Food. A bit of hMP, Max MP, and +10 of INT or MND isn't exactly gonna cut it compared to 150 Attack!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tptn937
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12-17-2012, 11:05 PMMirage
I wholeheartedly agree.
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12-17-2012, 11:30 PMArconIt is not related to gear at all. The damage potential of a melee compared to a mage, even with absolutely perfect gear is horribly biased in favor of the melee. Even while they have MP they can't get anywhere near what melees do, and once they run out they're out of the game entirely. A bump up in this regard would be nice, especially considering MP cost and recast time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Infidi
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12-17-2012, 11:58 PMMirage
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I have recently been informed that I was wrong about recast caps.
In either case, if mages are to rely on nukes as their sole form of damage, they should generally deal significantly more damage than a melee's WSes, seeing as the melee both autoattacks and performs WSes, while the mage only nukes, and also has to worry about MP costs. -
12-18-2012, 01:54 AMInfidiIt's related in the sense of a naked BLM/ vs one with OK gear/ vs one with best gear in terms of DMG potential. DD will always outclass a BLM in DoT. If you're comparing sheer "do as much DMG in a Zerg situation as possible" (pending they are under a spell that would negate them dying in 2 seconds like a DD would have under PD) they could Manafont, Nuke till dry, Convert, nuke till dry. It's not a usual scenario that would happen though. It's much more efficient to have DD do the "Zerg thing". Which why I was asking what gear OP has. It makes a difference if they don't have a good nuking set. Pumping out even lowball 2-3k (if mob isn't resistant) Blizzajas and Blizz Vs will get you dead fast. They would probably have to change hate issues first if they up BLM DoT. Or make spells cause less hate so can cast more Can cap hate fast spamming nukes. Unless you're playing the hate control game. Lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcon
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12-18-2012, 02:28 AMMirage
Only thing they'd need to do to avoid blms taking hate would be to fix the current issue with hate capping. With that gone, a blm wouldn't be able to take hate from a melee if the melee dealt more damage than him, even if it was just barely
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12-18-2012, 04:55 AMCowardlybabooon
Yeah blm got boned when empy WSs showed up. And again with merit WSs. Trial staves weren't enough. I'll gladly play the hate game in exchange for a damage boost.
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12-18-2012, 12:26 PMArbole
SE needs new content that has mobs highly resistant to physical damage. Back in the day, melee whiffed on Byakko, and did paltry damage to Genbu/Kirin, meanwhile mages were the main source of damage. Now, melee pretty much have acc cap on everything, and can pump out 3k+ WS consistently on most endgame enemies. On the mage side, many of these mobs resist magic damage like crazy.
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12-18-2012, 05:13 PMSiiri
Black Mage is in almost as bad shape as red mage, it is just slightly more hidden because of the "proc" systems in VW and Abyssea. Scholar has replaced anything a black mage can do in newer endgame, and even that doesn't matter because who in their right mind even counts on magic damage anymore? Scholar just goes for stun lock. SE went way to far in ToAU with magic resistances.
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12-18-2012, 09:24 PMKincard
Another problem with magic damage is that the nature of nuking doesn't really play nicely with the enmity system of XI. Big spikes in damage like those from big magic spells make monsters turn towards you even if you're not necessarily doing the most damage over time, it's just that you got a big hate spike from one spell. Once everyone hits the hate cap, it doesn't matter much -enmity you're stacking, you'll still pull hate with a big spell. I'm pretty sure a single full-powered meteor can cap hate. Enmity douse will only do so much since it's on a 10 minute timer.
It's a bigger problem when BLMs pull hate VS a melee DPS since like with ranger, a black mage pulling hate just makes it worse for everyone because it makes the monster run out of the melee's attack range and can potentially endanger other backliners (depending on the arena and how you place your characters, of course). -
12-19-2012, 05:32 AMtyrantsyn
Mage's could definitely benefit from some top end nuke food. Kind of odd after all this time there really isn't any to speak of.
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12-19-2012, 12:26 PMOrdoric
lol hows your elemental magic skill your int mab macc ? your affinity weather day your talikin aries and morgans what else are you checking?
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12-19-2012, 02:47 PMMirage
I don't think you understand what this thread is about.
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12-20-2012, 04:11 AMtyrantsyn
To my knowledge there's no class that has a Critical Hit Magic bonus In Job traits. Maybe it's a good time to throw it out there?
Maybe something special for BLM and DRK? -
12-20-2012, 07:15 AMSchrutea good blm is still in top tier in DD's in any situation. full magian staves full nares (-the legs of course), a push down macro for sorcerer's ring, ect, ect. On the right day and with a sch with the right weather you can pump out huge numbers and go toe to toe with rag wars and rag drks. in Void watch mp should never be an issue, get all your temp key items. in abysea with the right atmas you should be a god.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tptn937
I understand this thread is about making blm more powerful, I'm a career blm and am all for it, but 6% MAB is broken, that's a lot lol. If you are dead serious about blm you should at the very least strive for all the magian trial staves and full nares. If you have no life and want to be king of the blm's make the mythic blm staff lol.
And yes in Void watch you will need to proc, not just spam you're most potent spells, this is identical to any idiot with a rag spamming reso and going for procs.
The mori +1 body looks pretty name good, same with the feet. Would love to mix those in with the nares set and test everything out.
If you want my honest opinion of how blm can become more powerful, is if they fix the skillchain window. if a skill chain goes off, it should stay open and not immediately closed from another WS. this would make a lot of pieces such as magic burst damage gear relavent, and AND AND this fosters skill full play BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Do not have to increase magic bursting dmg because it is awsome because with the right gear and timing you can squeeze in 2 nukes easy 3 if you're good.
7k magic bursts on thunders day with thunders weather against Pil... done it, fun stuff.
getting an alliance to call out coordinate skillchains, never going to happen in VW lol.
I love blm, and wish I didn't have to make a mythic staff, maybe the new expansion will have new relic type weapons. -
12-20-2012, 04:07 PMArconThat is wrong on every conceivable level. My THF will out damage your BLM in any given situation and THF sucks as a DD. I don't know of any melee at all that would lose to a BLM in dealing damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrute
Also both completely wrong. You can run out of MP in Abyssea with no problems whatsoever, it's harder in Voidwatch but if you're screwed on procs it will still happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrute
6% MAB will increase a BLM's average damage by exactly 6%, which is absolutely nothing considering how little damage they're dealing right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrute
Having all the magian trial staves is useless because you'll only ever need two or three, and not all of Nares is good for BLM. The BLM mythic is only good for Meteor, otherwise the magian staves blow it out of the water. And you don't need to give up your life to get it, it's about three relics worth, and three relics aren't that hard to get these days either. It's annoying and tedious, but casual players can get it within a year if they farm daily for 2h in either Dynamis or Salvage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrute
Mages should be proccing, always, while melees should be DDing, most of the time. There are very good reasons for why this is done and has nothing to do with idiot Ragnarok owners, simply because a melee's DD potential is amazing compared to a BLM, and switching to a proc weapon to get a grellow weakness stagger will essentially disable the melee for all this time, which would net you less than it would cost you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrute
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12-20-2012, 07:05 PMSchrute
I would love to in get contest of who can do better dmg of my blm and your thf, I've seen thfs out parse some of the best dd so i would love the challenge. Only using 2-3 staves is dumb if you are a career blm because you lose out on reaching you're full potential damage wise. As far as the myhic blm stave with enough mab gear with lvl 2 aftermath it beats out magian staves, after playing with a blm who has one and witnessed itself in action.
Making a mythic, as you put it, sounds great on paper but you left out a lot. I consider myself a hardcore player, but there is a lot more hoops to jump through than getting the alexanderite. There's a lot of information on how long it would take just to get the assaults, tokens, and ampules done for the weapon ontop of farming dyna once a day and salvage once a day. unless you tri-box it or have 2 other friends that are willing to do salvage, assaults, and nyzule every day it's going to take longer. In other words i would suggest a hardcore player would prbly take 3 months to a year, a casual player would be a year and longer, but that's probably our difference in our definition of a casual or hardcore player.
I mentioned parsers, I don't use one and never will but I do like looking at results from other people, and usually those people that do use them know their stuff and how to do the most damage. I've stated my opinion and my advice on blm and I do agree with some of you're points and I'm all for seeing blm's dmg output increase, but simply putting them as out of the game in the damage department is not the case.
If you don't want to take my advice by all means go BG forums and ffxiah forums. These forums are full of people who strive to optimize dmg output for any job, and lot would just be reverbage of what I just said. Even ffxi encyclopedia has the math formulas for dmg if you want to see how mythic blm staff out beats magian staves.
If you want more examples of why you should strive for every magian staff for blm, try seeing you're dmg of fire spells against uptala or wind spells against qilin. Having the staves for elements other than thunder and ice is a must if you want to boost your dmg. Or you can nuke in hq staves or just wait for thunder spell recast timers when you're fighting undead. This is just some examples, not all, but a great point at knowing the enemy's elemental weakness
I drill this, because this is something I would really love to see, have the magic burst window stay open and not close as soon as another weapon skill goes off. Even having multiple windows open for magic bursting would be ideal. Having DD's find skillchain partners, blm's waiting and watching intently for that magical moment and then start dropping bombs! -
12-20-2012, 08:03 PMTptn937Thanks for bringing this up Schrute. I have the Nares set, I have every mdmg ToM staff, I have every macc ToM staff, I have full nares, I have valkyrie's trews with augment(0/6 on akasha chaps with full TH11+, bonus to spoils), I have 3/5 spurrina pieces, I use a sorcerer's ring, I have capped PDT, MDT, all obis, all weather/day gear. I even have a melee set with capped haste. In short, I have almost every item in the game for BLM. I always lose parse to mythic DRK, DRG, SAM in voidwatch- but steamroll ANY other DD. I have capped fastcast and always proc my assigned spells. The problem isn't me, I am a career BLM and am currently working on mythic 5000/30000 and need only 50000 tokens for the other requirements. The problem is this polarizing event where mp is capped and the monster cannot interact with players because it is unable to move or perform actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrute
Voidwatch is not endgame content folks. Legion is the new measuring stick, and half the monsters are immune or resistant to magic damage. In 30 minutes time there is a lot to expect out the alliance, and a mage oriented alliance isn't an option. When was the last time you saw an alliance of 3 PLD, 2 WHM, 2 SCH, 1 RDM, 2 BRD, 3 COR, 5 BLM demolishing monsters with nukes? This isn't even a problem with the enmity system. BRD and SCH offer -32 enmity to an alliance of mages with Foe Sirvante and Animus Minuo and BLM can easily fit the rest of the enmity pieces into their nuke set. The problem here is that monsters take almost no magic damage, even with capped haste on BLM, mp eventually becomes an issue with a relic bard, evokers roll, refresh II. Why don't all monsters have mp to aspir?? Why do half of the monsters take no magic damage?? Why is it that 2 BRDs offer capped haste, attack, and accuracy, reduced lethal damage to melee but only offer mages 32 INT(which decays), 21 mp/tic, and you still have to make a decision to either get capped haste or -22 enmity based on meriting options? (This is assuming 99 horn, harp).
I am tired of limited strategies that must include melee DDs to clear the hardest of content. I want to take an alliance of magical DDs and kill stuff that way. By taking an alliance of mages the fight becomes more dynamic IMO. I don't want to play a melee job where I just use the same WS over and over. In my opinion you should be able to clear content with zergs if you want, nuke fests, or even pet parties if they're all the best in the game and have a good strategy. I don't like being pigeon-holed into using SCH/BLM for every event (Edited forgot event) where monsters are able to attack back.
I must admit I was super surprised to see the enfeebling magic update. It was a huge step in the right direction. Sadly that wasn't completed for all aspects of the game. How many other mages can say they've slept a Cerberus in Legion Hall of Ki? Yeah, it's still hard to land, and no- I didn't have to use elemental seal. By making monsters immune to magical spells and abilities you cut off many strategies that could otherwise be attempted.
Thanks for deciding to try to attack my play style as the source behind my poor results, I like to brag about how much better I am than most mages. Sadly, not all mages can be expected to put in as much work as I. I don't expect to win any legion hall by myself either, so I suspect that the bar shouldn't be so high if I want to work as a team with other magical DDs. -
12-20-2012, 08:39 PMArconNo, you haven't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrute
Why? Name one mob for which you need full earth damage potential. I'll let Fire and Wind slide in horribly situational scenarios (in scenarios where you shouldn't be DDing in the first place), but that's about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrute
Yes, with Lv2 Aftermath it would actually win. That's good for showing off, I admit, but that's where the usefulness ends. BLM can not maintain that Aftermath while still trying to deal damage, because casting invariably takes time away from meleeing. And without the Aftermath the boost by 60 MAB is not very interesting. Assuming 100 MAB (mRatio of 2.0), you'd gain a boost of 30%, which is 5% behind magian trial staves. And the more MAB gear SE releases, the less useful BLM mythic will become, while trial staves will always maintain their 35% damage boost, because it's applied after MAB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrute
It's not, I agree, and even regarding that it's still doable within a year. It used to be a lot more difficult before the Einherjar adjustment, but now you can spam T3s daily if you wanted to, and get the necessary points in less than two months. I mentioned Dynamis in case you do not have three other people to spam Salvage with. If you can do both daily, I wouldn't call it casual playing anymore though, but that's just me. Assault statics are easier to build than you'd think, because interest in the Captain rank is still high (partly due to other people going after mythics) and take less than three hours off weekly. The only problem is killing the ToAU beastmen kings. But still, compared to the Alex requirements it's negligible. Killing them is not a problem, considering how many people are after them and you can team up with, only finding them up is. It's easier after a maintenance though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrute
While I would love to see that as well, waiting for a SC to go off will probably cost you more damage than you would gain from the magic burst. The only benefit would be in damage per MP output, but damage per time itself would drag. It would be nice to randomly see MB's go off though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrute
Also, spike damage is the worst kind of damage in the game, and always has been. If you can choose between consistent low damage versus sporadic high damage, the first will win in virtually all situations.
No, you don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tptn937
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12-20-2012, 08:49 PMSchruteGreat to see a fellow blm back me up on how great blm can be if you put in the time to gear and play it properly. Always wanted to make a mythic for blm, might just set that to be my goal after i finish ukon 99 to go with my rag 99. I agree legion is not blm friendly at all nor is it crit ws friendly either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tptn937
You have more staves than my mythic blm friend lol and i find this most awesome. I agree with you, content shouldn't be designed around just melle. AOE etudes are nice but would love to see some MAB songs for the DD mages. MAB food was mentioned and is also a great idea. I would never expect a blm to outparse rag drk/war, relic/empy mnks, or mythic/relic/empy sams on their best day, but staying on their heals is an incredible accomplishment in terms of your skill and love of the job.
I wish this thread might get some attention from the producer and devs. A lot of great ideas -
12-21-2012, 12:29 AMbigdave
do not forgot how crappy meteor is if cast solo. my theif out damages my blm in dot
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12-25-2012, 10:59 PMJaberwocky
Meh, who cares about THF. Schrute just has a passion for this job. He wants to see it grow like other DD jobs. Hope SE listens to you, Schrute! (^.^)b
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01-12-2013, 08:57 AMAlkimi
BLM should never be able to deal as much damage as a pure DD, however they should be on par with jobs like Ranger, sacrificing damage for being out of AoE range.
I'd say increase direct damage spells by about 75%, reduce MP costs to around one third of what they are now, and increase the damage caused by DoT spells like Poison and Burn/Choke/Shock by about a factor of 10 (dependant on enfeebling/elemental skill).
Sounds extreme but BLM would still get out-damaged by pure melee DD like DRK/WAR/SAM. At least it would be a viable choice though.
Unfortunately the cripplingly broken enmity system is still a problem. They basically need to tear it up and start again, it's the worst in any MMO I've played. -
01-17-2013, 03:35 AMBabekekeQuote:
Originally Posted by Tptn937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schrute
I'd like to address this issue based on what I can find on the Wikis:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcon
From what I can tell, INT doesn't add to the MAB stat that's used for the calculations (if it does it's not mentioned anywhere on the wiki pages), so therefore a BLM's MAB = 40 Base +gear. Therefore, for 6% MAB to beat 13 MAB, you need to have over 200 MAB total before the bonus% is applied. This means that unless you're using empy, it's unlikely that you're going to reach 160 MAB in gear, and even with empy, it's only viable for Meteor.Quote:
Originally Posted by both BG and clopedia
Better option would be more gear with affinity. Preferably base MAB and affinity in fact. -
01-18-2013, 11:19 AMReaperactually that's not quite correct, it only requires 117 MAB for 6% to be better than +13Quote:
Originally Posted by Babekeke
117 MAB is 2.17 multiplier(assuming no MDB) 13 more MAB would make it 2.3, while a 6% increase(x1.06) would result in 2.3002, slightly better, that being said affinity staffs would still be better as even the NQ lv 51 elemental staves offer+10%(x1.1) and the full damage magian staves are supposed to offer(I've heard differing amounts but most commonly) 35%(x1.35) which depending on your MAB before your staff can beat out even blm mythic (not on meteor obviously but) I believe at 164 MAB(before staff slot) they generate the same multiplier if you use elemental seal, if you don't use elemental seal magian beats mythic much earlier than that, as at 164 MAB its a multiplier of 2.64 the mythic adds 60, so 3.24 for mythic, elemental seal augment on it increase by 10%(last i checked which admittedly was awhile ago)so resulting multiplier of 3.564 which should be the same as 2.64x1.35 at least according to excel
but I'm rambling now, sorry for straying from topic
EDIT: I need to stop running on 37 hour days lol for some reason i thought they were talking about 6% MAB on a staff >.> my bad -
01-19-2013, 02:49 AMArcon
It actually depends on how "MAB" is calculated, exactly. One could assume, that with the word "Bonus" being in it, initial MAB is 0 and only adds onto the native magic attack, which happens to be 100. However, another interpretation would be that MAB describes the entire stat itself, meaning your MAB would then be 100 more. If there was MAB% gear, we could find out easily which is the case, but I don't think it exists so far, although I may just be uninformed on the subject.
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01-19-2013, 02:07 PMReaper
that's true, i based my calculations off as if it just added another multiplier to the calculation like affinity and weather, although they could do it another way, I don't readily know of any gear that specifically has MAB+% ether, but you are correct it would be easy to test
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05-08-2013, 04:38 PMPizza
Why aoe damage are so weak compared to Fell cleave and other aoe WS, the multiple target penaltie need to be updated.
A change like, giving 3% damage penaltie for each target, so -30% for 10 target and more. This change must applie to aoe WS too. Sound good. -
05-08-2013, 04:52 PMReaperyou realize the current aoe penalty for magic stops going up after ~10+ targets right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pizza
and currently the actual change from 3 targets to 4 targets or 5 to 6 targets is ~5%
generally aoe magic damage wont keep up with fell cleave except under certain situations(mob type takes extra magic damage like puddings or something), but its not THAT bad... (unless your trying to fell cleave burn as blm I guess it would be >_>) -
05-08-2013, 08:41 PMPizzaThere is a problem when a black mage can't kill faster 10 target with aoe highly mp consuming and interuptable spell than rdm or war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper
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05-09-2013, 09:23 PMReapermy point was that if you let it scale linearly past 10 with no limit then with enough mobs the penalty would become worse than what it currently is, wouldn't it be a simpler idea to ask them to take the penalty off magic? I know they are working on an overhaul of elemental magic maybe they'll address itQuote:
Originally Posted by Pizza