With the newer upgrade, when we cast spells such as silence, we receive a note if it's possible to even silence the mob, when we fail. This is a great addition, in my opinion.
But it'll be nice to see the puppet realize it's not possible. Yesterday I was killing CC and the entire time he refused to stop casting silence, which the fish is immune to. Either make the puppet some what intelligent and have it stop casting spells that are not possible to land, or give us an attachment that prevents it. Maybe cast once after that it learns it the target is immune and stops trying.
Intelligent Casting Attachment
Printable View
-
11-29-2012, 05:12 AMRafienIntelligent Casting Attachment
-
11-29-2012, 06:23 AMMirage
Not a pup, but I fully agree. If a mob is entirely immune to something, it should definitely be possible to customise the AI so that it does not continue to use it.
Anything else would just be... unfair, really. -
11-30-2012, 04:20 AMHelyos
Question for the OP. Did you have scanner equipped? That attachment usually makes it so the automaton checks resist rates of a spell before it decides to cast it.
-
12-02-2012, 01:23 PMTelford
I agree with the OP, we (still) need better casting AI. Silencing mobs that have mp but never cast (crabs etc.) yet never silencing mobs that use songs/ninjitsu because they don't have mp, or not casting Cursna when doomed, needs to be fixed.
These are fundamental AI problems and should be fixed at the AI level and not by an attachment. We shouldn't have to choose between a less stupid automaton or optic fibre/ice maker/etc. -
12-04-2012, 05:01 AMsweetidealism
Scanner will not stop the puppet from casting spells to which the target is immune. I think it may be because a monster like Cirein-Croin doesn't necessarily have wind resistance, it's just immune to silence like all bosses these days. Scanner, as far as I know, just checks for resistances. Therefore, it wouldn't know to not cast silence, because the target doesn't have any wind resistance to deter it.
-
12-04-2012, 11:13 AMPsion
Automatons also, when i left, don't notice elemental aborbances. For instance, the custard in nyzul (was it cinnamon?) that absorbs fire, but flans are normally weak to fire, so oniwaka would cast fire V on it, bringing its hp back to full. >.< Don't remember scanner ever stopping that.
Scanner also didn't help with the ghosts in limbus. They weren't resistant to ice, but instead had a -50% damage reduction from ice element. But because they didn't resist ice, oniwaka would cast his highest level spell (at the time it was blizzard V), instead of choosing fire V for far higher damage.
Scanner needs to be able to also sense elemental absorbance and elemental damage reduction, because without it the auto is terrible at nuking certain mobs. -
12-05-2012, 02:57 PMDekar
I also had a problem where the automaton would cast silence on a monster that has MP but doesn't cast magic. I thought they fixed that a while ago. Then again, been a few months since I played around with it.
-
12-06-2012, 02:59 AMRafien
@Dekar, no, the automation will still cast silence on crabs. If the mob has MP, it'll cast silence regardless if the mob uses spells or not.
-
12-07-2012, 04:35 AMCamate
Hello!
In order for your trusty automaton to determine enemies' resistances, it's not enough to just equip a scanner! Try using an ice maneuver after equipping a scanner. ;) -
12-07-2012, 05:47 AMCowardlybabooon
Love the knowledge bombs. Tell more secrets! Btw I'm not a pup.
-
12-07-2012, 05:52 AMAlhanelem
the automaton should really just do this anyway, without a special attachment. Honestly, does SE think the automaton is too powerful if it doesn't waste its time casting spells that will do nothing?
-
12-07-2012, 06:04 AMRakshaQuote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
yes
10char. -
12-07-2012, 06:34 AMSpankWustlerGiven some of the "helpful hints" that pop up from time to time, I suspect SE thinks more than a few players waste time casting spells that do nothing and that it would be weird if automatons did not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
-
12-07-2012, 07:00 AMDragonlord
So we're back to a "You don't know how to play the job correctly" response. I'm having deja vu from when they said this about the damage gauge attachment and light maneuvers, yet the entire AI was largely overworked months after. They weren't totally wrong, but missed the point that the system was inherently flawed by setting debuffs before cures.
The simple fact is maneuvers are designed to dictate too much of how automatons react through WS, magic, attachment JAs, and AI. Activating 1 maneuver can counter what you're trying to do through other maneuvers, such as flame holder boosting a WS's damage, then the auto uses a terrible WS because the AI is also based on the same system. -
12-07-2012, 07:49 AMhidekaor you could just know your monster weakensses before hand and just manipulate your pup into specific nukes based on maneuvers and not waste an ice attachment slot.........Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
-
12-07-2012, 08:53 AMGlamdringproblem is the manuver thing is in part in response to player requests to have more control over our little buddies with the spindly legs. In other words, we asked not to have it just on autopilot. The real issue is leaving things automatic results in stupid actions, what we have with the manuver/attachments system results in not enough control; giving us full control results in reducing player DPS, meaning an extra 1-2 seconds to kill our prey (also the possibility of being caught in a cooldown timer more often, i.e. needing to call for a cure but too busy hitting earth to put stoneskin back up). Honestly, this could get as ugly as all the rdms pointing fingers at eachtother about what the job is...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonlord
-
12-07-2012, 03:43 PMDragonlordThe maneuver system has worked this way since day one (just with dumber AI). Also, maneuvers should be on a 0 timer with 0 after delay but that's a separate issue. I'd much rather have a system where we can control our automatons on a more fundamental level. But at the very least, we shouldn't be counteracting ourselves by needing to bypass yet another AI obstacle (in this case ice forces nukes, as well as activating the scanner's modified AI). A gambit system allowing players to modify puppet AI to fit their own need would be sheer win, and not be unbalanced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glamdring
-
12-07-2012, 05:46 PMOphannusMight be wrong, not a PUP, but doesn't the BLM head have a built in Scanner? I know it has one of the attachments built into it, pretty sure it's Scanner.Quote:
the automaton should really just do this anyway, without a special attachment. Honestly, does SE think the automaton is too powerful if it doesn't waste its time casting spells that will do nothing?
-
12-08-2012, 08:41 AMGlamdring
@ Oph, SE has said that it does, not that it seems to USE the thing...
-
12-11-2012, 04:26 AMRafienI was doing Excavation Duty (Assault Mission), made sure I had scanner up and kept 3 ice maneuvers up. Lobo continued to cast paralyze and poison. Poison which the rocks are immune to and paralyze because.... ¿Maybe he was afraid chips of rock may fly at me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
Scanner doesn't work. -
12-11-2012, 04:30 AMRafienI really shouldn't take the time to, but what the hell.Quote:
Originally Posted by hideka
You need to cast cure, so you put up the light maneuver for priority curing. You now have 10 seconds to wait before the Automaton can receive another command. Casting a paralyze afterwards on something that can't be paralyzed is a waste of MP/time/energy. You can manipulate the puppet only by so much. -
12-13-2012, 04:59 AMCamate
Hello!
Along the lines of “intelligent casting,” I just wanted to add a bit about enhancing magic cast by automatons.
When it comes to the way automatons cast enhancing magic, they prioritize their master’s safety above all else and start out by casting defensive spells first.
There have been some players mentioning that they would like to make haste more of a priority as opposed to stoneskin and phalanx being cast first.
It is definitely possible to change the priority order and additionally we can even make it so the automaton will decide which spell to cast based on the level of the monster you are fighting. So for example, prioritizing stoneskin for stronger monsters and prioritizing haste for monsters evenly matched or below.
With that said, we will be looking into adjustments! -
12-13-2012, 05:37 AMRafien
@Camate,
I think you should take this a step further and allow the PUP's set the priority of spells. Like we do with our attachments, we should be able to move items up and down on a list of spells the automaton can cast. That would be interesting and nice to see.
If I'm the soloing, I want my automaton to maintain my health more than haste. Yet, even if it's a difficult mob and I have a WHM in my party, I'll want him to focus on my haste.
I would like to see SE take in a lot more consideration of what the PUP community is offering and looking for. -
12-13-2012, 06:17 AMSiiri
Does it seem like an awful lot of time is wasted on fixing pup? With all the updates to the puppetmaster job it just needs to be about no. 20 on the priority list while others are worked on.
-
12-13-2012, 07:20 AMAlhanelemWho the heck are you to decide what job should get what level of adjustment priority?Quote:
Originally Posted by Siiri
All jobs deserve equal attention.
The whole reason for your reaction anyway, despite the fact that it's silly, is that you view the job as inferior. Wouldn't it be nice if it was brought- in your perception- to the same level as other jobs? And who the heck actually liked that post, when PUP doesn't really get that much attention in the first place?
I, despite strongly disagreeing with the general perception that certain jobs like PUP and SMN are weak and thus undesired for most content, will be the first to acknowledge that there are reasons why people don't include these jobs much- These reasons absolutely should be addressed by SE so that every job has a place in a party beyond "you need this job in the random event that you need it for 1 proc in voidwatch."
Of course, if they got it right on day 1, they wouldn't have had to spend such an allegedly large time "fixing" it. -
12-13-2012, 08:34 AMSiiri
It's just that every update they try to fix pup, and apparently it never is fixed and pups still want more. Please look at it objectively and see how jobs are not being fixed equally, its so much focus on pup. Yet it never gets fixed. Didn't we all say last huge pup update, "I hope this is it now and pup is fixed:. Yet there are still complaints. Wasn't there a recent update that totally redid pup AI? Am i mistaken? Did this not happen? Why wasn't this AI fixed then?
-
12-13-2012, 08:47 AMAlhanelemExcept there isn't that much focus on pup. a couple dev posts does not imply "lots of focus." I AM looking at things objectively, and I'm not seeing all this attention on PUP. There has been little in the way of news in terms of additions and changes to PUP other than these last two dev posts. Its new SP ability was announced, nobody cared or gave any real feedback, and that was that. Many other jobs have been the subject of more buffs, nerfs, and tweaks than PUP has in recent times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siiri
They did, and it's a lot better, the problem (at least in my eyes) is that they want us to use attachments to give the automaton functionality it should really have by default. Attachments should be more about giving abilities and boosting stats than simply altering its behavior. For example, on the current topic: Why should we need a special attachment to stop the automaton from doing stupid things no player in their right mind would do (e.g. attempt to silence mobs that can't be silenced, or cast fire on a water based mob)? If they want the player to have to do something to prevent this, than allow us to queue up specific spells for it to cast or something, instead of taking up an automaton equip slot to prevent unintelligent behavior?Quote:
Wasn't there a recent update that totally redid pup AI? Am i mistaken? Did this not happen? Why wasn't this AI fixed then?
(If not for the fact that it would create an inventory disaster, I wish that attachments were like normal equipment items rather than permanently isntalled abilities. It would allow a greater number of them to be created with different stats and such)
In the end, every job has its share of issues. PUP, nor any other job, is any less or more deserving of fixes and improvements than any other job.
I think the best thing SE could do for all pet jobs is to allow the pets to be buffed, healed and supported the same way anyone else can. Pretty much every other MMO out there treats pets almost the same as any character, SE needs to do away with archaic limitations of a bygone era. -
12-13-2012, 08:54 AMSpankWustler
I'd compare Puppetmaster to my 92' Corsica. Both require a lot of work because there are core issues that can not be addressed.
Just like I can't afford a new car, the Development Bros can't seem to eliminate Job Ability delay or figure out how to make the puppet actually cast in a way that doesn't somehow remind me of a mentally retarded man pretending to be a half-elf Sorcerer. So, much as I keep replacing weird parts that live out brief, sad lives between my AC and my engine; the Development Bros keep making the puppet less retarded in roundabout ways that never simultaneously address every form of incompetence or inability the automatons practice. -
12-13-2012, 01:25 PMbungiefanNA
So you want something like the FFXII Gambit System for PUP...?
-
12-13-2012, 01:54 PMMirage
That would be great. It would make me level it, actually.
-
12-14-2012, 12:38 AMRafien
Like Alhanelem pointed out, our automatons are dumb. To fix that issue, we have to use attachments (Which I just showed that it didn't work). To change the pet for a BST, they change the jug their using and call beast. For SMN, they just resummon a new avatar. For PUP's, we deactiavate the automaton (Must be at full health even missing 1 HP and you're out of luck), unattach all attachments, change the body piece, change the head piece, and go through our LONG list of attachments to equip which ones we need/want. Than, because the Automaton doesn't function right, we have to remove one of the things we want/need to fix our automaton from doing stupid stuff like silencing mob.
Want to talk about attention. The new gear they just released, only 1 piece, standard leg gear, is for the automaton. -
12-14-2012, 08:55 AMGlamdringSiiri, question. Apparently you read the forums based on your statements. Have you EVER seen players just be happy with a job adjustment and leave it alone? I'll answer that one for you because it's quicker than waiting for a reply; no you haven't, because it's never happened. See, the players can't even agree on a direction a job should go. There are a bunch that seem to think that if they can't 1-shot AV their job is gimp and irrelevant. If SE "fixes" that, there are a bunch of players who say "well now what am I supposed to do?" You can never please everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siiri
Now SE-unlike many of the players-DOES worry about balance. However, balance does not mean what the players on here seem to think it means, which is get every job to the same DPS job X has. It's to make every job equally relevant. It's not SE's fault that players won't look beyond Zerg as a way to accomplish anything in the game. In addition, SE is trying to avoid content that can only be beaten in a narrow choice of ways because they want us to have a choice in how we play. Again, the players choose not to consider it, they just zerg and if that doesn't work they say the content is broken, not considering maybe what is broken is their ability to strategize.
So you get alot of baseless job adjustment requests. But here's the thing, when a job adjustment doesn't put the job back in "the mix" for party consideration then the players' requests are not necessarily baseless, it's because the last adjustment clearly didn't work. Now, some of those requests-while not baseless-may still be asinine. This isn't one of them on those grounds. On the other hand, this still won't work to make pup viable. You may have noticed that I used the term Zerg a few times above, referring to it as the only game strat. For those that have never played a mage job allow me to point out that mages DO NOT ZERG. So all the casting adjustments you want won't change the fact that current "strategists" really only want them to beef Valoredge and our DPS. I'm not saying "don't do this", I'm just saying it's not going to get us any more party slots than we get now. -
12-30-2012, 04:24 AMMercilessturtlePlease swap the priority of phalanx and stoneskin. Right now stoneskin comes first. But phalanx makes stoneskin last longer, so it makes more sense to prioritize it. And in particular, the current behavior causes a problem where he'll cast stoneskin, then by the time his next enhancing cast delay is ready, stoneskin has already been worn down and he re-casts it. So he just sits there spamming stoneskin non-stop and never does any other buffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
-
12-31-2012, 01:44 AMToadie-OdieOkay, my response is coming from a long time lover of BST so all you PUPs out please don't kill me if I'm off base here. Yes, I have leveled PUP to 99 but I really just like BST more.Quote:
Originally Posted by bungiefanNA
And this is why:
* The automaton is a puppet that is built, customized, and controled. This concept is brought in during the PUP flag quest and artifact quests.
*If this magical machine is something that is built, customized, and controled WHY CAN'T I PROGRAM IT TOO? I mean it's a machine for crying out loud. Sentient and self aware, but still a machine. Why can't we get key item AI chips to select like BLU sets spell and assemble them in a priority order?
I don't know if this is what people are talking when they are asking for a gambit system, but I think it's something that could be done since part of the mechanics I've suggested already exist in the game.
I don't know I think it would be fun to program my little guy and let him go to see what he does - kinda like what you do in the old game Carnage Hearts. I really think that is what PUP is missing, the ability to tinker with the puppet's AI with CPU chips or something. -
01-10-2013, 09:15 AMGlamdring@Toadie this is indeed what the OP is asking for. It’s not a universal request among pups. Here’s why. The more control given to the master, the more time the master has to spend on control, thus sacrificing time we could be DD/tanking. There are a large number that already complain about the lost 3 seconds/minute from our DD time just to keep manuvers up as it is. This is somewhat a split among pups much the way the melee rdms and casting rdms had a dispuute, although nowhere near as big of a split.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toadie-Odie
While I agree with you that the blu spell mechanics are in place I don’t think the adaptation to autos is as straightforward as you think. Our auto still has AI. While we can influence trends with manuvers (and the underlying frame/attachments) we have no conscious control of the actual cast, which is a complex series of timers, 12 variable attachment slots (with about 50 possible attachments), 4 possible bodies, 6 heads and 8 manuvers, all of which can be used in any combination. Then, how long is the potential spell list for each permutation? Now factor in the conditional variables; HP, MP, state of buffs, presence of debuffs of master, auto and prey; gear adjustments; scanner feedback, etc. Therefore, if we were to program our autos the shift of 1 attachment or manuver or whatever would require us to redo our entire casting program. Couple that with us not being able to save our auto set-ups and it’s just more complexity than most would ever be willing to put up with.
Personally, the level of algorithm analysis gives me a migraine just trying to think about it. And no matter what, some casting will be stupid. Auto’s will not cast during downtime. I have died a couple times when out with my rdm auto in the following scenario: been fighting undead for awhile, currently, I have Bio 3 and para on me and orange HP, ice, light and dark manuvers up, SS and phalanx are down as pup/dnc; I WS; auto scans that prey will die to a single thunder 4 and so nukes INSTEAD of curing me-dead prey. Now my HP is in the red from DoT, my healing waltz was blocked by para, I have no meds and I’m in a blood aggro area so I don’t dare send auto out to engage something so it might cure me, I don’t have TP for a curing waltz, and I can’t even kneel down to heal due to the DoT; dead. Did auto stupidcast? Yes and no. Ordinarily, a dead mob is a GOOD thing, because it isn’t hitting/casting on me. The real problem here is that autos don’t cast during downtime, if they did, all would be well. It’s programmed tho’ to think in combat terms with no thought to aftermath of the fight, where it does nothing. Honestly, more than a stupid casting fix i think the ability to cast when not in combat would be a bigger upgrade. After all, most jobs that buff do so BEFORE fights instead of waiting for during... and most healers will heal melees during downtime as well.
Now, our blm auto, that’s a whole different kettle of fish. Remember the old days of playing with idiot blms in parties that used tanks, DDs, healers and the like, then some idiot blm casts some AM, pulls hate off the tank and ends up wiping the party because it wasn’t enough to 1-shot the prey? Yeah, that asshat was reincarnated as your spiritreaver head. Pup really isn’t that gifted in the tanking department against a blm that is popping Thunder 5 at every oportunity, having only 2 JA on long timers, whatever we packed in terms of our SJ, our melee damage and the dismiss/recall tactic with this guy. It’s just tricky, and one of the reasons I never really see blm auto used with a soloing pup. Maybe if it would use Dread Spikes first... or if it was given sleep, bind, etc. like a real blm? Otherwise, having it cast tier 4 nukes until the prey can be 1 shot by a tier 5, again, like a real blm, or just holding off until the tank (the master) has established enough hate? -
01-10-2013, 10:52 AMToadie-OdieThank you for breaking that down, because you're right I did think it was a simple thing. And it is simple from a player's perspective to just set chips on a board and see what happens. But for a programmer... in retrospect I think it might prove to be a nightmare. And for those players out there that don't enjoy fiddling around and tinkering with things would set out to find and lynch me because the automan won't do what they thought they told it to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glamdring
You know... I wonder if they could implement a job ability or key item quest that would allow you to give it idle commands?Quote:
Originally Posted by Glamdring
That was an awesome analogy and it made my day. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Glamdring
I have a hard time making the BLM automaton to function well in a low-man party, nevermind solo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glamdring
So I guess I will amend my suggestion with a question. How difficult would it be to integrate the option to alter the order of priorities - as in a master list before you place attachments?
For instance, I could have the RDM automaton out and spam Light Manuevars all night but it still tends to favor enfeebling over healing. Could we have some way to order the following roles/option/priority sets as we liked:
- preservation of life
- optimal damage
- support (enfeebling and buffing)
Then placement of attachments would further adjust/augment/support the priority list. Granted some attachments would be ill-suited for some roles - some could even slightly override the settings.
How feasable would this be for players and programmers alike? -
01-11-2013, 08:56 AMGlamdring
@Toadie, sorry, I didn't mean to come off as opposed to your idea in a general way and I'm not a programmer myself-at least not since the days of Pascal being a viable language (yeah, I'm old, so?). Also, like you beast is my primary job, pup is a sideline I enjoy. That being said, I like yuor more current suggestion. I'm the type who actually likes the current amount of activity needed for battlefield control, since it's sort of "fire and forget". But yes, I do wish there was more of an ability to set priorities-without having to double or triple manuvers-since that leads to overload issues, especially if you need to ice (that manuver just seems to have the highest overload rate, but that could be entirely subjective, damned if I'm gonna chart it for a month to test).
but now that I really think about it, idle commands is probably the single-most useful upgrade for our casters I can think of (well, whm and rdm at least, maybe Harley as well). And manuvers DO have an effect during downtime, specifically light and dark for regen/refresh on our auto. Why can't we make it cast? Smn can, I think drg can and I know NPC fellows will, why not autos? I don't see that as being that high impact on balance since it will take away from down-time MP recovery so there's already a trade-off. Devs? your thoughts? -
01-11-2013, 10:29 AMToadie-Odie
I wasn't offended it's just your post caused me to rethink the topic. Your example really struck me how nice it would be to have an idle command upgrade. I would love for it to be a quest reward of some kind, like story-wise you are starting to learn how to build/repair the automaton, not just use it.
I read in another thread someone suggesting new animators with new effects and controls over the automaton. What if some of these new animators had behavior priorites set on them?
I honestly have a lot of difficulty with PUP simply because I think I started with BST first. There has been so many times that I forget myself and try to make the automaton behave like a BST pet... and end up dead very quickly. ^^; This isn't anyone's fault but my own.
I tried SMN but it ended up resting at lv30. Not sure when I'll get back to it. It just wigs me out that the avatar can chose to attack on its own. BST pets will only switch/attack enemies it currently has hate on it. Meanwhile the automaton only acts when you tell it to act.
The trick is getting the automaton to understand what you want it to do and right now I feel we have little control over that. In essence the maneuvers are very vague commands. It's like shouting at your kid "do something!" and then end up angry because he ran off and did something you didn't want him to do. I don't mind the automaton deciding what action to take but I would like to fine tune the message the maneuvers carry to my automaton, so that it's saying more than just "do something!". -
01-11-2013, 08:19 PMSpankWustler
I like this metaphor:
Like your kid multitasking by picking up the cat and starting to chew on its head while he or she completes a task because that task brings the kid within ten feet of the long-suffering cat, the Automaton can perform an undesired or flatly terrible weapon-skill because maneuvers control those as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toadie-Odie
Given, weapon-skill priority is more an issue with the melee frames, but still seems worth mentioning in any discussion. -
01-11-2013, 11:29 PMToadie-OdieEXACTLY! I discovered very quickly with my autistic son that vague instructions can be dangerous. My other son at age 3 does precisely that sort of thing with my mother's cat. lol Thus why I used kids for my analogy because my automaton often makes me feel like I'm talking to my sons and I would like to be able to adjust communications with the pet so that the instructions are a little more clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankWustler
Again, don't mind the idea of the automaton chosing it's actions. I would just like to have a little more influence on the AI that makes those choices.
PS: My 3-year-old finds your sig image fasinating. lol Too bad he doesn't recognize who those dogs are.