Bravura needs adjusting

Even spamming upheavel bravura is still behind ukon and in todays game it is so easy to cap - pdt rendering it's aftermath pretty useless.

I feel the weapon needs a lot more adjusting so it can be on par with Ukonvasara in dd terms.

Sick as hell that i've had this weapon since 75 and now it is pretty useless, i want to shove it up a gms ass at this rate.

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Originally Posted by JohnGotti

in todays game it is so easy to cap - pdt rendering it's aftermath pretty useless.

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Think of the aftermath more as giving you the benefit of whatever gear you removed to add the extra -20% DT then.

Still worthless, ukon is ahead of it 99% of the time it really needs a boost to match ukon in dps.

So make Ukon and not Bravura!

I did but that hardly fixes the issue at hand, bravura needs adjusting to match ukon in dps, when people made the weapon at 75 they didn't make it to become some second rate great axe that you wouldn't piss on if it was on fire.

They should at the very least increase the duration of aftermath (double it at least) so that I dont have to keep spamming metatron in order to keep it up.

The issue isn't just one with Bravura. It's with relics in general. Many of them just don't cut it versus Empy, or in Polearm's case, Mythic. Though of course in terms of difficulty to obtain, Mythics should be the best^^

I agree but back at 75 alex was like 2-3 k on my server, i hope when the new update happens and we get neo salvage alex becomes plentiful again, time will tell with that.

Back on topic however maybe se should take a indepth look at some relics and adjust as necessary.

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Originally Posted by JohnGotti

I agree but back at 75 alex was like 2-3 k on my server, i hope when the new update happens and we get neo salvage alex becomes plentiful again, time will tell with that.

Back on topic however maybe se should take a indepth look at some relics and adjust as necessary.

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What's the point to "adjust" a DD relic/mythic/empy? There will always be strongest weapon, and 2nd strongest weapon, and only the strongest weapon are worth getting if both cost the same. So SE adjust relic GA and it's now stronger than Ukon, then what's the point of making an Ukon? Everyone will bandwagon relic instead. Then SE adjust Ukon again and make Ukon ahead of relic again, now all those players just make relic for nothing and will go for Ukon again.

The only way to see this work, is to make strongest most expensive, 2nd strongest slightly cheaper. So players can choose, get the strongest weapon with more gil spent, or settle with 2nd one with less gil spent.

In the case of Ukon though, now that HMP back to 100k+ range, Ukon is probably more expensive than relic now.

Another way is just make different weapon type for utility, like current bravura. But yeah, get an Ukon if you want a DD weapon.

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Originally Posted by Afania

What's the point to "adjust" a DD relic/mythic/empy? There will always be strongest weapon, and 2nd strongest weapon, and only the strongest weapon are worth getting if both cost the same. So SE adjust relic GA and it's now stronger than Ukon, then what's the point of making an Ukon? Everyone will bandwagon relic instead. Then SE adjust Ukon again and make Ukon ahead of relic again, now all those players just make relic for nothing and will go for Ukon again.

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The real answer is bandwagnarok.

It's not just Bravura, there are a large amount of relic/empy/mythic (yes mythics) that aren't that great either. It sucks which is why I had hoped they were adding special things to them like they said they were thinking of a long time ago. Specific spells/JA or something to the relics/mythics/emps to make them equally competitive.

Personally i think the easiest fix would be two things 1) slightly increase the ODD for all relics at 99 2 ) to make the def down more consistent. Right now it just does not proc on pretty much anything. If it was say 50% rate that would go along way to equalizing bravura to ukon for alliance play.

I am hopping this is adressed when they fix enfeebling.

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Originally Posted by Afania

What's the point to "adjust" a DD relic/mythic/empy? There will always be strongest weapon, and 2nd strongest weapon, and only the strongest weapon are worth getting if both cost the same. So SE adjust relic GA and it's now stronger than Ukon, then what's the point of making an Ukon? Everyone will bandwagon relic instead. Then SE adjust Ukon again and make Ukon ahead of relic again, now all those players just make relic for nothing and will go for Ukon again.

The only way to see this work, is to make strongest most expensive, 2nd strongest slightly cheaper. So players can choose, get the strongest weapon with more gil spent, or settle with 2nd one with less gil spent.

In the case of Ukon though, now that HMP back to 100k+ range, Ukon is probably more expensive than relic now.

Another way is just make different weapon type for utility, like current bravura. But yeah, get an Ukon if you want a DD weapon.

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Mr Gotti wasn't saying Bravura should be ahead of Ukon he was saying it should be closer because right now in pure dps terms it is still a way off. I'm sure the people who spent 150 mil on Bravura back at 75 won't like to be told ok go spend another 150 mil to 99 a Ukon.

All they want is for Bravura to be able to hold its own against a Ukon not outright beat one.

They should make relics give specific aftermaths for each job that can use the weapon. Make Bravura enhance Retalliation's proc rate to 80% and increase the damage of your Retalliation hits by 30%(or make them auto-crits) would be a cool aftermath.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

They should make relics give specific aftermaths for each job that can use the weapon. Make Bravura enhance Retalliation's proc rate to 80% and increase the damage of your Retalliation hits by 30%(or make them auto-crits) would be a cool aftermath.

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They wont do this, as mythics are supposedly the "job specific" weapons

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

The issue isn't just one with Bravura. It's with relics in general. Many of them just don't cut it versus Empy, or in Polearm's case, Mythic. Though of course in terms of difficulty to obtain, Mythics should be the best^^

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There are so many threads and posts on these forums asking for all the relics (and some mythics) to be reviewed/adjusted, but no answers have been given to the vast majority of them. I know the dev team is flat out but a simple "we will/wont look into fixing the dps/ws/aftermath on X weapon (whether it is relic/mythic/emp)" on a weapon by weapon basis would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Afania

What's the point to "adjust" a DD relic/mythic/empy? There will always be strongest weapon, and 2nd strongest weapon, and only the strongest weapon are worth getting if both cost the same. So SE adjust relic GA and it's now stronger than Ukon, then what's the point of making an Ukon? Everyone will bandwagon relic instead. Then SE adjust Ukon again and make Ukon ahead of relic again, now all those players just make relic for nothing and will go for Ukon again.

The only way to see this work, is to make strongest most expensive, 2nd strongest slightly cheaper. So players can choose, get the strongest weapon with more gil spent, or settle with 2nd one with less gil spent.

In the case of Ukon though, now that HMP back to 100k+ range, Ukon is probably more expensive than relic now.

Another way is just make different weapon type for utility, like current bravura. But yeah, get an Ukon if you want a DD weapon.

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I dont mind if a 99 Ukon is stronger then a 99 Bravura by a bit (not huge). The problem that exists now tough is that a 90 Ukon flat out still beats a 99 Bravura ¬.¬ which is imho wrong.

Look at Sam relic vs empy. a 99 amano clearly beats a 90 masa, but a 99 masa beats a 99 amano by a bit. I find that totally fine and would find it also fine for Bravura vs ukon.

There are more such discrepances and bigger ones.
Just look at a 99 death penalt vs. a 85 armageddon! Seriously 14 lvls of difference and it still beats out the mythic, just because Leaden Salute totally sucks ass compared to wildfire.

The problems are the WSs. If the Meritable WS or the Weapon WS arent good, the weapon will be shit. Look at Ragnarok, Considered shit until Resolution was added... In my opinion the point of those Weapons is to get them for the stats and the aftermath. But the aftermath isnt gonna help you much if you dont/cant use the WS to activate it because its shit. So in that case they should level the playing field and just make Relic/Mythic/Empy (merit WSs not included) of each weapon class doing close to same dmg (not exactly same but close).

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The problems are the WSs. If the Meritable WS or the Weapon WS arent good, the weapon will be shit. Look at Ragnarok, Considered shit until Resolution was added... In my opinion the point of those Weapons is to get them for the stats and the aftermath. But the aftermath isnt gonna help you much if you dont/cant use the WS to activate it because its shit. So in that case they should level the playing field and just make Relic/Mythic/Empy (merit WSs not included) of each weapon class doing close to same dmg (not exactly same but close).

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For one Rag was always a powerful weapon, Great Sword WS's suck hard core at the time vs Scyth and Great Axe was better then both. The moment a powerful Great Sword WS was created Rag immediately shot to near the top due to it's passive bonus's (OD2.5 and large Crit hit rate increase).

The reason that Ukon crush's Relic GAXE so much is that Upheaval is kinda sh!tt without MS, it's still better then Entropy but not by a large margin. WAR has a large amount of +crit damage that Upheaval should of been a crit WS.

Actually all the merit WS should use their primary stat instead of fSTR, would at least makes things a bit more even then the sloped "STR beats all" we have now.

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Originally Posted by saevel

For one Rag was always a powerful weapon, Great Sword WS's suck hard core at the time vs Scyth and Great Axe was better then both. The moment a powerful Great Sword WS was created Rag immediately shot to near the top due to it's passive bonus's (OD2.5 and large Crit hit rate increase).

The reason that Ukon crush's Relic GAXE so much is that Upheaval is kinda sh!tt without MS, it's still better then Entropy but not by a large margin. WAR has a large amount of +crit damage that Upheaval should of been a crit WS.

Actually all the merit WS should use their primary stat instead of fSTR, would at least makes things a bit more even then the sloped "STR beats all" we have now.

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well thats exactly what I stated, the reason why some relic/empy/mythics suck ass is because their WSs/meritable WSs lack firepower compared to another weapon. Imho they should address that and level the playing field a bit. Some WS are stronger then their empy counterpart when you use /thf with sneak attack, but 1. who the hell uses /thf 2. you loose way more firepower without useing /sam 3. there is no way to apply it anyway due to mobs spinning around lol.

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Originally Posted by Damane

I dont mind if a 99 Ukon is stronger then a 99 Bravura by a bit (not huge). The problem that exists now tough is that a 90 Ukon flat out still beats a 99 Bravura ¬.¬ which is imho wrong.

Look at Sam relic vs empy. a 99 amano clearly beats a 90 masa, but a 99 masa beats a 99 amano by a bit. I find that totally fine and would find it also fine for Bravura vs ukon.

There are more such discrepances and bigger ones.
Just look at a 99 death penalt vs. a 85 armageddon! Seriously 14 lvls of difference and it still beats out the mythic, just because Leaden Salute totally sucks ass compared to wildfire.

The problems are the WSs. If the Meritable WS or the Weapon WS arent good, the weapon will be shit. Look at Ragnarok, Considered shit until Resolution was added... In my opinion the point of those Weapons is to get them for the stats and the aftermath. But the aftermath isnt gonna help you much if you dont/cant use the WS to activate it because its shit. So in that case they should level the playing field and just make Relic/Mythic/Empy (merit WSs not included) of each weapon class doing close to same dmg (not exactly same but close).

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This is FFXI, and weapons are pretty much No.1 or gtfo if both costed the same and used by same job.

A lv 99 relic GA costs about the same as lv 99 Ukon, even if it's weaker by "a bit", you'd still see ppl complained that why he spent same amount of gil and do less dmg. I mean, if both weapon cost the same, why bother with weaker one even if it's just "a bit" weaker?

In the case of Amano v.s Masa, if I remember correctly, Masa is a bit more expensive than Amano if both at 99, so at least you can choose to build a cheaper but weaker weapon. If both weapon cost the same, and you told a SAM Masa>Amano, majority of ppl would probably choose Masa to begin with.

Pure DD power you can never balance it unless cost of the weapon is factored, or unless utility is factored. Either make relic GA more useful utility or much cheaper than Ukon.

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Originally Posted by Afania

This is FFXI, and weapons are pretty much No.1 or gtfo if both costed the same and used by same job.

A lv 99 relic GA costs about the same as lv 99 Ukon, even if it's weaker by "a bit", you'd still see ppl complained that why he spent same amount of gil and do less dmg. I mean, if both weapon cost the same, why bother with weaker one even if it's just "a bit" weaker?

In the case of Amano v.s Masa, if I remember correctly, Masa is a bit more expensive than Amano if both at 99, so at least you can choose to build a cheaper but weaker weapon. If both weapon cost the same, and you told a SAM Masa>Amano, majority of ppl would probably choose Masa to begin with.

Pure DD power you can never balance it unless cost of the weapon is factored, or unless utility is factored. Either make relic GA more useful utility or much cheaper than Ukon.

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I think you missed my point:
I said I dont mind if a 99 empy/mythic/relic compared to the other 99 empy/mythic/relic (same weapon class) is a bit stronger. But as it stands now some 90 empy flat out beat 99 mythic/relics which is imho terribly terribly wrong.
Best examples are:
Armagedon 85 or 90 shitting on death penalty 99
ukonvarsa 90 shitting on bravura 99 and conqueror 99
85/90 empy katanas shitting on both relic/mythic katana
list goes on

the only instance where they got it right was as said with amano and masamune
a 99 amano beats a 90 masa, but a 99 masa beats a 99 amano.
Thats the discrepancy I am talking off.

a legendary weapon 85/90 should never be able to beat a 99 legendary weapon in any case, its just plain stupid, you are rewarding the person that put in less effort basicly.

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Originally Posted by Damane

I think you missed my point:
I said I dont mind if a 99 empy/mythic/relic compared to the other 99 empy/mythic/relic (same weapon class) is a bit stronger. But as it stands now some 90 empy flat out beat 99 mythic/relics which is imho terribly terribly wrong.
Best examples are:
Armagedon 85 or 90 shitting on death penalty 99
ukonvarsa 90 shitting on bravura 99 and conqueror 99
85/90 empy katanas shitting on both relic/mythic katana
list goes on

the only instance where they got it right was as said with amano and masamune
a 99 amano beats a 90 masa, but a 99 masa beats a 99 amano.
Thats the discrepancy I am talking off.

a legendary weapon 85/90 should never be able to beat a 99 legendary weapon in any case, its just plain stupid, you are rewarding the person that put in less effort basicly.

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If you don't want weapon with less effort perform better, then pretty much 90% of R/E/M needs adjustment, not just Bravura IMO.

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Originally Posted by Afania

If you don't want weapon with less effort perform better, then pretty much 90% of R/E/M needs adjustment, not just Bravura IMO.

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and you missed my point again, I am not talking only about bravura, thats why I kept my post in general about R/E/M. I am talking about them in general and that it needs fixing