BST DoT increase: A modest suggestion

Hello SE,

I'd like to talk about the ability spur. Currently, the only effect spur has on the pet is store-tp. May we also have 15% haste added to the pet for 1.5 minutes?

And for all the beastmasters that read this, I strongly urge and spur you to like this post so that SE will look at it and give it serious consideration.

Thank you.

I like this idea, but the devs hate us and don't want to make our ablities any better, especially the terrible ones. Also, I'm pretty sure an old BST will come in here to remind us of the few pieces of existing haste gear for pets and then try to imply that anyone who doesn't already have/use said gear is terrible and should quit the job.

It really is a nice idea, though.

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Originally Posted by Malthar

Hello SE,

I'd like to talk about the ability spur. Currently, the only effect spur has on the pet is store-tp. May we also have 15% haste added to the pet for 1.5 minutes?

And for all the beastmasters that read this, I strongly urge and spur you to like this post so that SE will look at it and give it serious consideration.

Thank you.

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I was gonna like... but then came the pun -.-

Never gonna happen, but I liked anyway.

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Originally Posted by Shadax

Never gonna happen, but I liked anyway.

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It's true. I could believe maybe 5%, but there's no way they'd consent to 15%. The main thing that makes Spur almost useless is that even without spur, our pet gains 100tp faster than our ready timer refills. Honestly the only time I use spur at all is when I first pull my pet out and start fighting just so I get the first attack sooner. After that it's pointless. What I would suggest instead, is increase our ready charges at higher levels. SCH gets more stratagems the higher they get, I feel like ready should get the same treatment. Even if it was only an increase from 3 to 4, it would make a difference. I keep hoping that maybe one day SE would do this, but I don't have my hopes very high I must admit.

Well, if all the beastmasters come out and like the original post, they'll have no choice but to take notice. It's the least they own us from that pet TH fiasco.

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Originally Posted by Malthar

Well, if all the beastmasters come out and like the original post, they'll have no choice but to take notice. It's the least they own us from that pet TH fiasco.

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Oh they'll notice. And if we're very very lucky they'll respond and say no. If not so lucky, they won't respond at all. They've taken plenty of notice over how overwhelmingly unhappy we are with the 2hr, but all we've gotten out of that is stoneskin instead of reraise. Not something I'd call a victory.

Instead of asking for an Insane Amount of Haste, Why not ask for something, say, Reasonable? Yes 15% Haste is the average for a Spell, But when think about other Pet jobs, Some way worst off than BST... It seems Absurd. Everyone <3's their job the best, But we need to objectively handle improvements.

SMN and PUP Are the only jobs who's pets can receive haste, SMN Only has 1 Avatar, Garuda, Who can, and PUP only has 2 heads, RDM and WHM. So they're limited in that regard (And I'm 99% certain PUP Heads can't haste themselves, So i could be entirely wrong on PUP)

That said... Spur would be nice if it could be improved a little, But i recommend something way more realistic. Lets stick with the haste idea, But instead of making it 15%, How about 5%, or 10%?

Or, Better yet, Could always have Spur give a Slight Accuracy and Attack Boost. Right now, Spur offers what, Store TP 3 at base, But up to Store TP V with the Gloves?

Spur could also grant.

Accuracy Bonus III~V
Attack Bonus III~V.

This wouldn't be as "Broken" in SE's eyes as 15% Haste for this ability, and would act as a slight Berserk/Aggressor for our pet. Adding a good chunk of Accuracy and Attack on top of the Store TP. Alternatively, It could add the above, as well as a small amount of haste (5%).

Have to think of it in terms of expected reality, Not wishlist numbers. Hope that helps, +1'd anyway.

So bsaically you don't like this idea because it would be a nice thing. Why do you hate nice things?

Augmented BST 2hr = +10% haste
AMK head = + 5% haste
Earthen feet = + 3% haste
Moepapa Stone = + 5% haste

And Run wild also grants some haste

While i'm not saying it's broken there is already alot of pet Haste sources for bst

some of us have 4% pet haste on the earthen feet.

I like the idea, but I have my doubts they would make spur better than our 2 hour.

Considering you need to augment your relic Legs to get that 10% familiar haste boost, i highly doubt SE is just going to toss 15% onto some random ability.

Just a reminder, Even if you don't completely agree with the OP... Good idea to give a like if you want something for BST on that ability.

Even if they don't want to give 15% haste, They might see the demand for some additions to Spur is high and look into it. Stop being stingy with your +'s, it doesn't cost you anything to hit it.

Do ettt

I personally think that if Spur were to be buffed SE should give it a small amount of haste (maybe ~5%) and a some degree of Acc bonus (maybe Acc Bonus 1 or 2). This would then help the ability do what it was designed to do, help the pet build Tp.

What does everyone think of the idea of adding more ready charges at higher levels? I think this would be beneficial, and it would have the side effect of actually making spur more useful. I suggest this because I feel hopeful that SE might actually take this suggestion into consideration and not just outright say no. If you like it please like, and hopefully one of our ideas will be acknowledged.

If you're already hitting 100% tp before you have the charges to use abilities then haste wouldn't be that useful, I'd say make it lower the cost of abilities by 1 (to a minimum of 1) so 2 charges would become 1 charge 3 charges would become 2, that way you'd be getting more abilities in where having haste would do nothing

You're missing the point of the original post. Haste will increase the pet's DoT. Pet TP moves do not do as much damage as regular mele over the same time it takes to get 100% tp. BST needs more damage. I'm a relic bst with a 95 guttler but whenever I ask to go bst in voidwatch I get laughed at. I've suggested allowing the pet to start / end skillchains to SE, but they are wan reluctant to accept that idea. So, I asked for increase haste. And 15% haste is not a ridiculous amount of haste. I'm aware that the +2 relic augmented pants can add 10% haste for it's 2hr. Personally, I think that should have been 15%. And other gear such as the anwig salade and e.feet can add a total of 8% haste extra, but that takes away from the master's DoT, which is a considerable sacrifice when wielding a guttler. The original post was to suggest increasing the pet's DoT so that bst can be more useful in end game events. I mean, come on! It's not a game breaker to give the pet a little more haste.

15% Haste is overpowered and it still wouldn't get your BST into Voidwatch. BST will never have a place in Voidwatch (other than a proccer if the alliance leader is in a good mood). Not all jobs will be eligible for every event. It would be nice if that was the case, but it's not and I'm willing to bet it will never be. And this is most definitely not a solution for that particular problem either. That's the same complaint that Mandau RDMs have for not being recognized as efficient melee. It's a matter of great importance to them, but they can't see that not every job can have the same capabilities in every department. If a BST DD could compare to other heavy DDs (which is the only way they'd be wanted in VW as DDs), no one would want regular DDs anymore, because BST could do damage as well as them, and several other things on top of it.

Sooo... You're saying that if bst can do as much damage as other mele then people would only opt for bst and other mele would never get chosen? That makes no sense. If bst could do as much damage as other mele they would be included, as well as the other mele, in endgame events such as voidwatch. The main reason bst doesn't get chosen is that it can't do as much damage as the other mele.

And I'm not saying that giving 15% haste to bst would solve all our problems, but it would be a start.

And to give an unqualified statement such as "15% haste is overpowered" without supporting argument is obtuse.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

15% Haste is overpowered and it still wouldn't get your BST into Voidwatch. BST will never have a place in Voidwatch (other than a proccer if the alliance leader is in a good mood). Not all jobs will be eligible for every event. It would be nice if that was the case, but it's not and I'm willing to bet it will never be. And this is most definitely not a solution for that particular problem either. That's the same complaint that Mandau RDMs have for not being recognized as efficient melee. It's a matter of great importance to them, but they can't see that not every job can have the same capabilities in every department. If a BST DD could compare to other heavy DDs (which is the only way they'd be wanted in VW as DDs), no one would want regular DDs anymore, because BST could do damage as well as them, and several other things on top of it.

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Who cares about Logwatch anyway? Also, prove that 15% Haste is overpowered, please cite parses and/or statistical data supporting your claim.

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Originally Posted by Malthar

Sooo... You're saying that if bst can do as much damage as other mele then people would only opt for bst and other mele would never get chosen? That makes no sense. If bst could do as much damage as other mele they would be included, as well as the other mele, in endgame events such as voidwatch.

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Wrong. Other melee require healing, buffing and constant upkeep, pets don't. If BST did as much damage as regular melee they wouldn't be as good as them, they would be strictly better. So bringing other melee also requires buffers and healers, which take up additional slots in the alliance, whereas BST wouldn't.

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Originally Posted by Malthar

And I'm not saying that giving 15% haste to bst would solve all our problems, but it would be a start.

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And I'm saying BST doesn't have a problem. Your "TH nerf" didn't do shit to BST, it's still the best Dynamis farming job out there, and by a good margin. This is not your first suggestion to BST that stemmed from nothing more than you wanting your job of choice to be better for no reason other than you not feeling loved enough.

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Originally Posted by Malthar

And to give an unqualified statement such as "15% haste is overpowered" without supporting argument is obtuse.

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First of all, it's been pointed out before why that's the case, a few times already just in this thread. Secondly, I don't feel the need to because you suggested it exactly the same way, with no supporting argument whatsoever other than "I want it", same as with your Guttler thread.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

Who cares about Logwatch anyway?

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The OP.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

Also, prove that 15% Haste is overpowered, please cite parses and/or statistical data supporting your claim.

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Asking for parses of something that doesn't exist, so if I can't provide them you think you win the argument? Clever move. But since you asked so nicely for an argument:
Pets can already get 14% Haste (not counting Run Wild or augmented 2hr). Another 15% brings the total to 29%. That's 86% delay versus 71% delay. That's a 21% increase in damage output. So you're asking for the already best farming job (by far) and one of the best, if not the best survivor jobs to increase their damage output by more than one fifth of its original value. Several times larger than that if Run Wild is active, even larger with the 2hr active, since Haste gets more beneficial the higher the value gets.

As I said before, BST currently rank up there with melee RDM when it comes to the validity of their requests. They're not satisfied with what they have (and unlike RDM, they actually have a lot at this point in the game) and want something their class wasn't designed for to compensate for imaginary needs.

A-ha! You're a beast hating troll, aren't you? I knew it!!!

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Originally Posted by Arcon

The OP.

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The OP contains a general request to increase the effectiveness of Spur, VW wasn't mentioned specifically. The poster also doesn't mention VW specifically as the reason why Spur should be changed.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Asking for parses of something that doesn't exist, so if I can't provide them you think you win the argument? Clever move. But since you asked so nicely for an argument:
Pets can already get 14% Haste (not counting Run Wild or augmented 2hr). Another 15% brings the total to 29%. That's 86% delay versus 71% delay. That's a 21% increase in damage output. So you're asking for the already best farming job (by far) and one of the best, if not the best survivor jobs to increase their damage output by more than one fifth of its original value. Several times larger than that if Run Wild is active, even larger with the 2hr active, since Haste gets more beneficial the higher the value gets.

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Please provide proof that Run Wild increases Haste. Also, what I'm getting from your post is that because we're good at farming and soloing 75 content we're not allowed to be viable for newer content? That's interesting.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

The OP contains a general request to increase the effectiveness of Spur, VW wasn't mentioned specifically. The poster also doesn't mention VW specifically as the reason why Spur should be changed.

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I never said that. I said he cares about VW, because you asked me who did.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

Please provide proof that Run Wild increases Haste.

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No.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

Also, what I'm getting from your post is that because we're good at farming and soloing 75 content we're not allowed to be viable for newer content? That's interesting.

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You're not getting much. Not that I'd expect much, based on our previous encounters.

If you can't provide simple proof then your claims are inaccurate at best. I love your taste in hats, by the way.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

If you can't provide simple proof then your claims are inaccurate at best.

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No, they're spot on. I said specifically that I did not count Run Wild in my argument. So why should I provide proof for something that's not part of my argument?

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Originally Posted by Caketime

I love your taste in hats, by the way.

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Thanks.

So not having proof is OK in this one circumstance because...? You mentioned Run Wild as part of your above post in reference to Haste, and now you're saying you never included it despite mentioning it in your post as a source of Haste? All I asked was that you prove it does what you say. You still haven't proven the basis of your argument either, at this point it's like watching a Politician backpedal on the issues.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

So not having proof is OK in this one circumstance because...?

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Because it's not part of my argument.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

You mentioned Run Wild as part of your above post in reference to Haste, and now you're saying you never included it despite mentioning it in your post as a source of Haste? All I asked was that you prove it does what you say.

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Yes, I mentioned it. I said "not counting Run Wild". So even if it doesn't add any Haste at all, my argument still stands. You ask me to prove something that a) I can't prove and b) is not part of my argument or this thread.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

You still haven't proven the basis of your argument either, at this point it's like watching a Politician backpedal on the issues.

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Everything I said is still valid. You're just nitpicking the one thing in my post that I can't prove, despite it being completely irrelevant. It's like not wanting to accept someone's argument for why movement speed is good because they can't prove the Riemann hypothesis.

If it's irrelevant then why did you mention it at all? You also implied that it's a source of Haste, which is why we're still talking about it. Your previous post claiming that if BST had a better Spur we would be the only job doing VW isn't far reaching at all either, it's just funny. We haven't been accepted for events for years now, one change does not have the capacity to make BST the only job used for anything, we still have a Ready timer that holds back our pet's TP moves. If it were actually possible for us to spam Lamb Chop or Fantod on bosses then I'd agree with you, but we both know that any change to Spur wouldn't facilitate that unless Ready were changed along with it. In fact, to get the job to the level you're trying to claim the entire thing would need a huge overhaul because it's just not built for massive damage output on a constant basis like heavy DD can.

I'm willing to agree that 15% Haste is a bit high for an ability on a 5 minute timer, but anyone claiming that boosting Spur in some meaningful way will suddenly throw off the delicate balance (lol) and make BST the only job anyone uses is completely ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

If it's irrelevant then why did you mention it at all?

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Because it's suspected to add Haste. And because I don't know for sure, I said that even without that, it's still a huge increase in DPS. Just so people wouldn't think that my calculations assumed shit that wasn't confirmed yet.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

Your previous post claiming that if BST had a better Spur we would be the only job doing VW isn't far reaching at all either, it's just funny.

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Only I never said that. I said that BST won't be accepted to VW unless it deals the same amount of damage as heavy DDs. However, if they do the same damage as heavy DDs, they're not just great DDs but also have great survivability. Hence, they'd be objectively better than any other DD, and if they're better why would people want other DDs anymore? It's the pure truth that people will go for the best possible setups, which is why BST currently is not being invited to VW.

One vital fact that you're overlooking is that equiping gear that hastes the pet seriously gimps the master. I don't know about you, but my guttler and I out DD my pet significantly. 15% haste added to spur ever 1.5 minutes is minuscule compared to the reduction in DoT the master gets penalized by equiping gear that hastes the pet.

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Originally Posted by Malthar

One vital fact that you're overlooking is that equiping gear that hastes the pet seriously gimps the master.

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You're confusing vital with irrelevant. Don't use that gear then, even naked it's still over 15% gain in DPS.

You're missing the point. With gear the pet gains haste and consequently a higher DPS.
Conversely, with gear the master looses haste, attack, acc, etc and consequently looses significantly more DPS.
The master significantly out DD's the pet.
Both offenses added equal the total amount of damage.
The damage done with pet haste gear on the master vs haste gear for the master is less.
15% haste contribution to the pet without gear will not make the damage from the pet and master combined overpowered.

It's so simple, why can't you see that?
Or was my original estimation correct that you're a pet hating troll?

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Originally Posted by Malthar

You're missing the point of the original post. Haste will increase the pet's DoT. Pet TP moves do not do as much damage as regular mele over the same time it takes to get 100% tp. BST needs more damage. I'm a relic bst with a 95 guttler but whenever I ask to go bst in voidwatch I get laughed at. I've suggested allowing the pet to start / end skillchains to SE, but they are wan reluctant to accept that idea. So, I asked for increase haste. And 15% haste is not a ridiculous amount of haste. I'm aware that the +2 relic augmented pants can add 10% haste for it's 2hr. Personally, I think that should have been 15%. And other gear such as the anwig salade and e.feet can add a total of 8% haste extra, but that takes away from the master's DoT, which is a considerable sacrifice when wielding a guttler. The original post was to suggest increasing the pet's DoT so that bst can be more useful in end game events. I mean, come on! It's not a game breaker to give the pet a little more haste.

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I'm not missing the point, I know what the OP is asking for and it should not be added.

First, out of the pet jobs SMN is the DD class, BST is the tank class, so 15% is an insane amount of haste for a 5min ability.
Second, all spur does at the moment is increase STP, which suggests its an ability designed to increase ability frequency, which I understand, cause It will help the pet hold hate (hence my suggestion to change it to lower charge costs because increased ability uses means increased hate which is fitting for a tank class and It still also satisfies the OP's need for more damage to a lesser extent.

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Originally Posted by Malthar

You're missing the point. With gear the pet gains haste and consequently a higher DPS.
Conversely, with gear the master looses haste, attack, acc, etc and consequently looses significantly more DPS.

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It's common courtesy to read other people's posts before replying to them. You obviously didn't read mine. I said specifically that even with no Pet Haste gear at all the boost is still at least 15% (it's actually at least ~17.5%). So don't use any gear for it at all, it's still a large boost. With gear it would just be higher.

I'm pretty sure my original assessment was correct in that you're a BST fanboy who just wants his job to get better for no rhyme or reason. The only argument you've ever mentioned for it is that you didn't get invited to Voidwatch. This request is about as valid as me suggesting to boost WAR's damage by another 10% just because there was a SAM once who landed a higher Tachi: Shoha than my Ukko's Fury.

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Originally Posted by Malthar

Or was my original estimation correct that you're a pet hating troll?

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This. He talks like he's an authority on everything in the game when he's just another mook like the rest of us. It's pretty funny how important it is to him to point out how wrong we are about a hypothetical ability update and the far reaching consequences it could maybe, possibly have. You should see him ingame, the dude's a tool 24/7.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

You're confusing vital with irrelevant. Don't use that gear then, even naked it's still over 15% gain in DPS.

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I just had to quote this because it has got to be one of the most retarded things anyone has said in a discussion in an attempt to prove their point. Wow. You have wowed me, Sir.

I have to admit getting pretty 'tarded up in here.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

You should see him ingame, the dude's a tool 24/7.

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He's seen me ingame, unlike you.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I have to admit getting pretty 'tarded up in here.

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Indeed.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

He's seen me ingame, unlike you.

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Leviathan's smaller than you think.