How to avoid Bots becoming required again to experiance endgame content in FFXI.

Don't add new world spawn HNMs with good drops that are not obtainable anywhere else, or are vastly easier to get through camping these new HNMs.

Part 1.
Nothing anyone can do can actually prevent the creating or use of bots in any MMO, except not adding content that can be botted. The only way to avoid bots becoming required again is to simply instance all HNMs in raids like Aurum Vale or Cutter's Cry in FFXIV or in the world similar to how Voidwatch is done. Adding free roaming and spawning NMs (like Kings use to be, or how Tiamat, Dark Ixion, Cerberus, Sandworm, etc are right now) with good drops will only cause the complete revival of bots.

Part 2.
Different bots and how they work and why nothing can be done to outclaim them, aside from using a bot yourself.

There were several types of bots before the second Abyssea expansion when they all became obsolete. When I say this, I mean people stopped using them, because there was no longer a point to using them, not that they all stopped working.

The first we will cover is the 'claim bot.' This was used for things like Fafnir, Behemoth, Aspid, etc, where the mob spawned in a relatively small area.

In FFXI, mobs actually spawn before anyone can see them on their screen, originally claim bots gave such a huge advantage to people using them, because they could claim the monsters before they actually spawned for anyone. To combat this, a few years after launch SE added a 'claim delay' system to every monster when they spawn. What this does is whenever any monster spawns, theres a random interval of 1-4 seconds where it simply cannot be claimed. How do bots get around this? New bots created after this patch simply link together and time abilities and distribute them evenly throughout the window of claim delay. What I mean is, HNMLS's would gather 15-30 people/mules, and all run the same bot, and connect to each other through the internet and sync the bots, so that every split second through the 'claim delay' period, someone in their alliance would be using provoke, or flash, or stun, or something else to try and claim the mob. Basically you would have 15-30 different actions attempting to claim the mob as it spawned, at slightly different times, but with none overlapping each other. Compare this effect to a random alliance of people randomly seeing the mob whenever and trying to claim, and you can see why bots had such a huge advantage and why this sort of bot won claim over people not botting a good 99% of the time.

Another advantage to this bot, was that it would target the monster packet as it spawned to try and claim, and it didn't actually have to appear on your screen yet for you to try and get it. When you're in a large crowded area, a monster won't always appear when it spawns, sometimes it could even take minutes for you to even be able to find it after people say its up. I have personally experianced this in Dragons Aery when there was 200+ people camping Fafhogg. So the more people there were around trying to claim the monster, the more advantageous using this bot became.

The next type of bot we will discussion is the scanning bot.

This type of bot is primarily used for very long window respawn HNMs, like Tiamat, Cerberus, Khim. Because the windows on these monsters were very long, unless it was close to the end of it's window, or if there was very, very heavy competition, you did not use claim bots on these. Instead you used a 'scan bot.' How this worked is you simply stick a mule in a zone like Attohwa, turn it on, and leave it there. When Tiamat eventually popped the bot would display a message in your LS chat saying that it spawned. Then everyone simply Teleport Mea'd out there, or nexus cape'd to the mule from Right outside Port Jeuno and claimed it, depending on how much competition there was.

The last thing we will discuss is Dark Ixion and Sandworm, and how people botted them.

There seems to be a large misconception that because these mobs spawned in different zones, and anywhere in the zones, no one could bot them. This assumption is entirely wrong. To bot DI and SW you used several things at once. The first thing you would do is stick a person or a mule in every zone they can spawn in. Then they all run several programs. The first program is a scanning bot that we talked about using for Tiamat, the other thing this does besides display an LS message is it makes the mob appear on your screen, no matter how far away it is from you. This triggered another program that displayed which direction from you in a zone NMs were located. Then you would also use something to increase your movement speed by 800%, which enabled you to get to DI or SW within 5 seconds of them spawning, no matter where int he zone they happened to spawn at. The last thing you used was a program that triggered the use of the spell invisible or a prism powder when the LS message appeared that the mob youre camping spawned in your zone.

The basic outcome of this is that the moment DI or SW spawned, everyone in your LS knew which zone it spawned in, and the person in that zone was invisible, and knew where the mob spawned, and was moving at 800% movement speed across the map to claim it. There was absolutely no way to legitimately outclaim an LS using this method to camp them, unless the mob spawned directly on top of you and you were paying attention.

Can you all see why encouraging the use of bots is not something we should be doing? By encouraging this type of content to be developed you are openly admitting that you're a botter, because you know you will have these amazing advantages over everyone else again. Let's keep the game how it is now, it's about skill, and the desire to go do stuff and succeed, it's not about which LS has the best bots like it use to be. HNMs had their time and their place, but once bots came into the picture in a big way, they were no longer content that could be accessed by everyone. In this day and age of extreme competition in the MMO market, why would anyone want to drive off whats left of FFXIs playerbase by adding content that is exclusive to cheaters?

Dear Mods: if this post is deemed unacceptable, please delete it, I made it it's own post for that reason.

actually just make the hnm in question have a low time spawn or force pop. Abd have it be similar to Optical hat nm. Also make suggestion about improved reporting, like the ability to take a screenshot and send it to GM. Or have a specific report just for use of bots. As they are against the ToS. MMO need mix of both open world content, and instanced content. If everything is instanced then the world in question becomes lifeless. Or even better have spawn similar to despot. Where u kill underlings of some kind till the hnm gets peeved then pops claimed to the group that pop'ed him.

poping or waiting/claiming shouldn't be the challange. The actual fight should be there the fun is at. And frim my experience hnmLS's didn't start using bots till 2007ish. If they use bots today, thats really in poor taste since the mmo is pretty old. And most hnm are barely camped.

What they can also do is a token system. you kill the hnm and ppl get tokens to spend on gear.

hnm do not need to be on a glorified timer.

Why is another garbage thread being made about HNM?

this is a horrible debate, you're either on the side of the gimps who don't even know how to run an [a] party, the basement gnomes, or the bot profiteers. the game's over 10 years old, why should anyone give a cat? let natenn and habu do what they do best and camp the internet while tabbing to ffxi every minute to check if omfg1337skill loot mob pops, while mom/wife/caretaker/indentured servant brings them moar hotpockets; hypothetically speaking, of course. and rosa will just start to see real progress on her relic, whent hey finally nuke the servers. again, all hypothetical.

Rosina: you know little to nothing about the subject, that's painfully obvious.

Kaerin: I wish you hadn't posted this. Too many threads about this already, it's just another thread for people to make the same posts with the same arguments, the same accusations and the same insults. :(

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

Kaerin: I wish you hadn't posted this. Too many threads about this already, it's just another thread for people to make the same posts with the same arguments, the same accusations and the same insults. :(

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It's fun because I laid out how bots work and why theyre bad, at the very beginning of the thread, so no one can possibly miss it.

Force once i gree with Taruina.

Wish12oz, mr casual 15/15 nyzul elite legion ls member, LMAO. Plays 7hrs a day. Dude.. get out. You'renot casual and please stop saying that.

Habu - bumping threads AGAIN. This dude is lol. I'm for HNM, but honestly, i hope they never add them again so players like him will quit and go away. He is such an idiot.

Taruina ftw. She is right. NO ONES CARES. STOP spamming the forums. SE is going to add them whether you want them or not. You dont need to keep spamming the forums saying the same thing over and over again.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

It's fun because I laid out how bots work and why theyre bad, at the very beginning of the thread, so no one can possibly miss it.

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I don't think anybody is going to jump in here and argue with you, saying botting isn't bad, regardless of matter how they work.

It's still going to be the yay-hmn v/s the nay-hnm players again though. And we have a lot of threads like that spread across several forum sections already, old and new.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

Rosina: you know little to nothing about the subject

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I know more then you think. My suggestion was around how to avoid a bot in question, or means to report the usage of one.

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Originally Posted by Rosina

I know more then you think. My suggestion was around how to avoid a bot in question, or means to report the usage of one.

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Don't you think players have reported other players for botting for years already?

"FAFNIR POPPED PURPLE OMG BOT CALL GM!!"
"I GOT OUTCLAIMED OMG BOT CALL GM (although I have no idea if that player is actually botting or not)!!"
"I DON'T LIKE THAT DUDE, GONNA CALL GM AND SAY HE'S BOTTING!!"

Even in cases where it was rather obvious someone was botting - i.e. claim and then not move an inch afterwards and after the fight was over they were still standing in the same spot - nothing ever happened when they were reported.

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Originally Posted by Rosina

I know more then you think. My suggestion was around how to avoid a bot in question, or means to report the usage of one.

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1) You don't know more than suspected.
2) You can't report or prove a bot, unless the botter is brain-dead.

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Originally Posted by Zerich

1) You don't know more than suspected.
2) You can't report or prove a bot, unless the botter is brain-dead.

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idk a lvl 21 in behemoths domain that is a tarutaru on /follow with little to no gear a good indication of one >.>;;

and i meant for a better means to report a bot. But really 2012 if ppl using bots to claim... that pretty sad.

o btw the lvl 21 in question was the one who claimed behemoth.

These threads are getting dumber and dumber lol

Anyway guys. At least I come up with suggestion and stay on topic best I can. >.> I don't rudely call people out on said suggestion with asinine claims.

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Originally Posted by Rosina

Anyway guys. At least I come up with suggestion and stay on topic best I can. >.> I don't rudely call people out on said suggestion with asinine claims.

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Admittedly correct, many people keep going off topics 30 seconds into it.

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Originally Posted by Rosina

idk a lvl 21 in behemoths domain that is a tarutaru on /follow with little to no gear a good indication of one >.>;;

and i meant for a better means to report a bot. But really 2012 if ppl using bots to claim... that pretty sad.

o btw the lvl 21 in question was the one who claimed behemoth.

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That doesn't necessarily prove the person in question is a bot. It's not against the ToS for a level 21 Tarutaru with no gear to go out to Behemoths Dominion and claim a Behemoth. (Or now, pop one.) I mean what's stopping me, someone who doesn't bot, from going out and doing that? Alright sure, to the common eye someone named "Dbafjbalf" on anon with no gear or level one RSE gear claiming an HNM has like a 99.99% chance of being a bot. But that .01% chance is exactly why SE can't just give them the ban hammer. What if it was a real player? They weren't doing anything wrong.

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Originally Posted by Habu

These threads are getting dumber and dumber lol

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i agree 100% habu...it's still funny though.

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Originally Posted by Chilloa

That doesn't necessarily prove the person in question is a bot. It's not against the ToS for a level 21 Tarutaru with no gear to go out to Behemoths Dominion and claim a Behemoth. (Or now, pop one.) I mean what's stopping me, someone who doesn't bot, from going out and doing that? Alright sure, to the common eye someone named "Dbafjbalf" on anon with no gear or level one RSE gear claiming an HNM has like a 99.99% chance of being a bot. But that .01% chance is exactly why SE can't just give them the ban hammer. What if it was a real player? They weren't doing anything wrong.

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rosa thinks dual boxing is botting...what's new? (deductive reasoning)

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Admittedly correct, many people keep going off topics 30 seconds into it.

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ya hopefuly my making a gear swap thread will help. they have a place to get on my case now lol.

anyway let me make my suggestion easier to understand.
how to avoid botting or making conent unbottable (to a degree)

1) make the hnm in question have a low spawn time. under 1 hour. This ensures the hnm is generally up rather quickly and people get the gear they so desperately need faster. which is a big reason for using a bot.

2) make the hnm force poped. you can use a similar style to sky gods, or ohot nm where you collect a set of items that you need to pop it. Or be crafted into a pop item.

3) have a better means to report the use of a bot. if a player things a bot is use have a specific tag under gm call and certain gm under this to investigate a claim quicker.

4) have the hnm in question spawn similar to despot. Where players kill the normal mobs that spawns the hnm claimed to them.

Increasing the use time on the "Stun or you're $*@#ed" monster abilities would be nice way to prevent stun-bots having a discrete advantage over legitimate players, especially in laggy scenarios.

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Originally Posted by Zerich

rosa thinks dual boxing is botting...what's new? (deductive reasoning)

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no i don't...

but really how often does someone bring a low level no gear (this was at cap 75 well before abyssea was even out) to a hnm fight. >.>;; really.....

and i never said give them the ban hammar right away. Nor did i say it was a bot. Just that if you actually use your brain oit wouldn't make sence to bring a low lvl player to an hnm and have them claim it.

ps its rosina... not rosa.
my name is gaelic for little rose.

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Originally Posted by Rosina

no i don't...

but really how often does someone bring a low level no gear (this was at cap 75 well before abyssea was even out) to a hnm fight. >.>;; really.....

and i never said give them the ban hammar right away. Nor did i say it was a bot. Just that if you actually use your brain oit wouldn't make sence to bring a low lvl player to an hnm and have them claim it.

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you implied the both. just like you don't say "i suck" your picture is a dnc holding a quietus.

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Originally Posted by Zerich

your picture is a dnc holding a quietus.

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...lol... This matters because?

Multi-tier monster fights that you can pop under special conditions would be ideal, I think. Want to make it über hard to the point that it will kill you instantly if people aren't working together and paying attention? I'm all for that. Want to make it to something that can only be spawned every so often in real time? I can live with that.

But the old HNM system? It was a joke. We're better off without it.

In before the lock.

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Originally Posted by Zerich

Demon my bro, just make a Rag.

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Not sure about Rag, was thinking about it after I finish Excalibur, for now I have been making OAT at least, figured its better than nothing and so far as I am told its better than Calad if Calad is under lv90~99

Hello Everybody!

This has really become a heated debate and many different opinions have been expressed. We are happy that our game still gets folks all fired up and wanting to debate, the HNM/Botting issue (from past calls, we know that his is a very hot topic) but this thread has become a bit excessive so I am going to go ahead and lock it for now. I will keep it visible so that our Development Team can see your ideas, but some of the posts may disappear as they may violate our Terms of Service.

While we encourage healthy debate, please remember to stay civil and refrain from insulting each other; please also note that you do not always need to make a comment for the sake of making a comment - this is what can get threads locked and/or punishment issued.

Thank you for your understanding.

Senior Game Master Jhanaka