Bow: Which one?

Well, after of couple of year w/o playing RNG, I'm thinking playing it again. What bow RNG prefer now?

Gandiva look nice but do a magian STR or AGI bow is better with the Apex Arrow WS?

In other word: Jishnu's Radiance or Apex arrow?

Gandiva is better but if you are going to spend the time to farm a weapon tier wise it's Relic Gun > empty tier spot > Relic Bow > Gandiva.

There is an empty tier spot after Relic Gun because Relic Gun is just flat out much better then the others in both dmg and utility.

I read stuff about Annihilator > Gandiva. But ammo are kinda pricey so why I tried to figure which bow will worth the work.
Also, I already work on a relic (Kikoku or Aegis, still dunno which one I will make 1st...) and I lost motivation every 2 weeks of farming (dynamis is still boring to do, at least it's free now and no need an ally).

On the other hand: my woodcraft is 63 so I can make my own ammo.

To finish, I always enjoyed bow in most RPG game I play so... :)

That's how I felt when I made my relic bow too. lol

I still find relic bow to be better then Gandiva for sure because of the whole super low enmity Namas Arrows you can do with it while a Gandiva user will end up pulling hate much much sooner or holding back lowering their overall damage.

Are we asking about Pure damage? JR is a beast for damage but it'll burn a hole in your pocket using 3 expensive arrows per WS.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Jishnu%27s_Radiance

1.75, 1.95 with gorget / belt, and that's on each hit, three hits.
5.85 total fTP, 60% DEX may critical (if your not capping ranged attack its actually worth something)

Coronach
3.0 fTP 30% AGI 40% DEX 1 shot WS. Treat as 4.2 fTP if your using a level 99 version (for the 40% bonus).

Last Stand
2.0, 2.2 with gorget / belt per hit, two hits.
4.4 fTP total 100% AGI mod.

For pure physical damage it looks like JR / LS are the beasts. This is excluding WF as that's an entirety different animal and requires you to gear for MAB but without COR's QD or Emp +2 feet.

Coronach Beats everything else because it's very close to being a hate free WS and the aftermath effect is also - enmity. So a relic Rng can go all out without having to hold back because of their enmity getting too high. While a non relic holder has to pace him/herself or risk getting killed and doing zero damage for a while.

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Originally Posted by Feliciaa

Coronach Beats everything else because it's very close to being a hate free WS and the aftermath effect is also - enmity. So a relic Rng can go all out without having to hold back because of their enmity getting too high. While a non relic holder has to pace him/herself or risk getting killed and doing zero damage for a while.

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Huh ...... what .....

Umm ... hate doesn't work that way, this isn't 2006 anymore.

Any melee worth a damn will cap hate within 30~60s. After that the NM hits the last person who did an action on it, no matter how big the RNG's numbers are they won't be out-hating a melee on a NM fight, they don't shoot fast enough. The moment the RNG is capped CE/VE, the next action will pull hate, and the next action by any melee will pull hate back, melee's hit faster then RNGs.

So unless the RNG unloads everything within the first 10s, hate is a non-issue. I don't gimp my damage on DRK / WAR / SAM / BLU, neither should any RNG.

That's exactly why relic gun is on it's own tier. You could do 3 Coronach in a row and not even be close to capping enmity because of how the WS works and the aftermath it has . However, try doing that with JR and their is a good chance you will be spending time dead.

You can also go all out with a relic and not have to worry about pulling hate or hope that other DD can pull hate to save you.

If your fighting anything that actually needs a tank then relic gun will always win because it targets RNG's biggest issue enmity gain.

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Originally Posted by Feliciaa

That's exactly why relic gun is on it's own tier. You could do 3 Coronach in a row and not even be close to capping enmity because of how the WS works and the aftermath it has . However, try doing that with JR and their is a good chance you will be spending time dead.

You can also go all out with a relic and not have to worry about pulling hate or hope that other DD can pull hate to save you.

If your fighting anything that actually needs a tank then relic gun will always win because it targets RNG's biggest issue enmity gain.

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Umm what ... the .. hell...

Do you even know how enmity works in FFXI? Here is a little class,

Two types each with their own cap, Cumulative and Volatile, CE/VE respectively. CE is hate you build up via various actions with the biggest sources being damage done and HP cured. VE is also built up like CE but decays at a rate of 60 units per second. Both have a cap of 10,000 units for a total enmity cap of 20,000. The NM will always target the person with the highest hate, and if multiple targets are at 20,000 then the last target to do an action on the NM will be targeted. Dealing damage builds both CE and VE with VE being about 3x the amount of CE. CE only goes down when you take damage or when the NM does hate reset move, VE goes down with time.

Now that you know that, want to know how long it takes me to cap CE / VE out? 60s or less on DRK (usually 30s). Three WS's and you've pretty much capped out hate on any DD, once your at 20K there is nothing you can do to raise your hate higher, and it'll only go down slowly with time or when you get your face smashed in. When you have 2 DRKs 1 SAM and 1 WAR all at 20K TE, then nothing the RNG does will pull hate for longer then 1 melee's attack round, unless those four die. You can be doing 10K damage per shot and you still won't pull hate.

When you have
20K TE DRK
20K TE WAR
20K TE SAM
20K TE RNG

The NM will always target the one who hit it last, and shooting at 500+ delay that's not effected by haste vs the 430~500 delay of the melees at 65~80% haste. Their hitting four to fives times for every time you shoot, and thus you can never pull hate because you'll never be on the top of the hate list.

So yeah, do not gimp your damage trying to control hate, this isn't 2006~2007, we're not kiting it with a bunch of PLDs and there is no such thing as hate control. All melees are at 20K TE, so should you.

Issue with that is it only works for zerg fights where enmity does not matter at all and it requires the RNG to rely on multiple DD at being capped. Also if every DD is capped including the RNG, there is a very good chance of pulling hate a moving the mob away from DD and getting ppl killed.

As for the enmity system here is how relic gun works. http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Coronach
Lowers Enmity for a certain amount of time. (Enmity -20) Regardless of the damage, Coronach hate is only 80CE / 240 VE (Enmity- effect included).

With that in mind. As I said before, I can spam WSs, not have to hope I don't pull hate or rely on other DD to control how fast I do dmg.

I have not played in 5 months did they make all VW NMs like abyssea NMs? Ie: don't bring a PLD at all and DD can just Zerg with no fear of death?

yes! use temp items zerg proc get item back use them again...

Guess it's just different play styles then. Because every JR RNG I have seen can't even crit enough times to beat Namas Arrow spam and that does even less then relic gun.

And exactly what event in FFXI requires "hate control" right now? We haven't practiced that since 2007~2009 time, depending on your shells tactics.

The whole idea behind Coronach RNG was that you could use it on fights where you had two PLDs tanking some huge a$$ HNM and kept the melee to an absolute minimum to control TP feed. The RNG could stand with the BLMs and bring the HNM's HP down while saying out of aoe range, this required the RNG to keep their hate as low as possible which limited their damage. A Coronach RNG didn't have this issue and could spam Coronach all day long. The moment we moved away from those world time spawned NMs it become an outdated tactic, just like turtle PLD and kited fights.

To the OP, JR is the strongest physical ranged WS @5.85 fTP 60% DEX and can crit for whatever that's worth to Rangers. LS isn't far behind @ 4.4 fTP 100% AGI, and I can see LS beating JR if you can get enough AGI. WF gets special mention as it's magic damage and a completely different build, 5.5 fTP @60% AGI, use's MAB and fAGI 2x(pAGI-mINT). Apex is 3.2fTP 100% AGI and ignores 15% def, similar to a 17.6% attack bonus, it's better then slugwinder but not at LS / JR level. Of interesting note for COR's who haven't finished their WF yet is Leaden Salute, 4.2 fTP 30% AGI and uses the same fAGI as WF and is dark based magic damage.

Physical WS's require expensive ammo and large amounts of attack, we're talking /WAR ranged attack food and attack buffs. The magic ones only require the appropriate HQ staff and M.acc / M.atk gear, the ammo has nearly no effect on the WS itself. Pick what you need and go with it.

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Originally Posted by Feliciaa

Guess it's just different play styles then. Because every JR RNG I have seen can't even crit enough times to beat Namas Arrow spam and that does even less then relic gun.

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"scratches head" what kind of rangers are you playing with, i have yet to meet a namas spaming rng beat me out on JR spam, hate was never an issue, at all. even then, since most things are in VW it's called Gnosis drink.

and FYI i have all 3, anni, gandiva and arma, i don't have yoichi because quite possibly, it's useless to rng, its a SAM play toy. it does not touch Gandiva in anyway. yes, it is strong, but no where near gandivas power, if you are concerd about hate you must play with some terrible dds, because i can fire off 5 JR and the mob dosnt even hit me because it's to busy being played tennis with and swinging at the WARS and DRKs the moment they land a hit, which brings us back tot he caped hate thing that was discussed eariler.

yes i do love anni better tho, but it's pretty costly to full time.

Thank you about the feedback. So if I understood: JR > other Archery WS but guns do bigger score.

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Originally Posted by Darwena

Thank you about the feedback. So if I understood: JR > other Archery WS but guns do bigger score.

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Huh? Not understanding that last part.

For RNG's, Gandiva Archery is the best for damage. If you don't have Gandiva then Gun with Last Stand is next up. Armageddon gets special mention because while it'll be less then a fully buffed JR, people often stick RNG's with the mages and thus you might not be getting the buffs to make JR shine. WF spam doesn't require external buffs to make it do great damage, so it's an option.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Huh? Not understanding that last part.

For RNG's, Gandiva Archery is the best for damage. If you don't have Gandiva then Gun with Last Stand is next up. Armageddon gets special mention because while it'll be less then a fully buffed JR, people often stick RNG's with the mages and thus you might not be getting the buffs to make JR shine. WF spam doesn't require external buffs to make it do great damage, so it's an option.

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Are you serious? Last Stand destroys Jishnu's; it's not even close enough to be worth debating... If you don't have a gun, THEN JR is next up, but why would you not have a gun when Armageddon is easier to upgrade than Gandiva? Second of all, Armageddon will outperform Gandiva by a huge margin, not because of WF spam (lol), but because of Last Stand. Most people assume Annihilator is the king of RNG weapons, which I agree with under most circumstances, but Armageddon is right up there with it. I have both @99 now and the difference between them is pretty minor. Of course, coronach is really what makes Annihilator invaluable.

Thirdly, as a more general comment, don't play RNG if you're not willing to spend the gil to play it well. If you're just upgrading a bow because you think it's cheaper then you might as well upgrade something for a different job that's actually useful.

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Originally Posted by Helel

Are you serious? Last Stand destroys Jishnu's; it's not even close enough to be worth debating... If you don't have a gun, THEN JR is next up, but why would you not have a gun when Armageddon is easier to upgrade than Gandiva? Second of all, Armageddon will outperform Gandiva by a huge margin, not because of WF spam (lol), but because of Last Stand. Most people assume Annihilator is the king of RNG weapons, which I agree with under most circumstances, but Armageddon is right up there with it. I have both @99 now and the difference between them is pretty minor. Of course, coronach is really what makes Annihilator invaluable.

Thirdly, as a more general comment, don't play RNG if you're not willing to spend the gil to play it well. If you're just upgrading a bow because you think it's cheaper then you might as well upgrade something for a different job that's actually useful.

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Ahh you might not realize that all archery WS's copy fTP, not just the new ones.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Jishnu%27s_Radiance
1.75 fTP, per hit, not 1.75 + 2.0. 1.95 with Gorget / Belt for a total of 5.85 fTP (technically 5.83). 60% DEX mod and crits (for whatever that's worth)

LS 2.0 fTP per hit, 2.2 with belt / gorget, 4.4 total. 100% AGI mod.

JR has 32.9% more fTP, LS has 66% higher WSC. Once you account for base DMG / Ammo and ranged fSTR they become damn near dead even with Gandiva being ahead due to crits on heavier NMs. If our shooting at 300 TP then LS moves ahead of JR due to it's fTP scaling vs JR's crit rate increase. JR's critical hits become more important as your targets defense goes up and your no longer capping ratio at 3.0. The question becomes, what are you trying to kill. Weak stuff, then use LS, harder stuff or situations your not super buffed then Gandiva. Too bad Dead Aim doesn't work on WS's.

WF is in it's own special category, 5.5 fTP with a 101 base DMG (lv+2) is amazing for a magic WS. You can then stack on HQ staves for a direct damage increase and higher magic accuracy.

Though I agree that nobody should be playing RNG or COR if their cheap. Their both jobs that are literally shooting gil at monsters.

Crits are much less important for ranged attacks than melee hits, only increasing pDIF by 25%. Also, the effect isn't capped so ranged critical hits represent the same % increase in damage regardless what your cRatio is.

You can probably call Last Stand 4.5 fTP as well, because of the TP Bonus Moonshade. So it's more like 1.3x fTP and some crits (damage +25%) vs. 1.66x Mod. Factor in that DEX is probably less convenient to whore than AGI, gun/bullet's higher base damage to start with, and you see why people like Last Stand.
Gandiva + Garg = 117 + 51 = 168
Anni + Adaman = 76 + 127 = 203

fSTR caps higher with Gandiva, but not 35 points higher.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Crits are much less important for ranged attacks than melee hits, only increasing pDIF by 25%. Also, the effect isn't capped so ranged critical hits represent the same % increase in damage regardless what your cRatio is.

You can probably call Last Stand 4.5 fTP as well, because of the TP Bonus Moonshade. So it's more like 1.3x fTP and some crits (damage +25%) vs. 1.66x Mod. Factor in that DEX is probably less convenient to whore than AGI, gun/bullet's higher base damage to start with, and you see why people like Last Stand.
Gandiva + Garg = 117 + 51 = 168
Anni + Adaman = 76 + 127 = 203

fSTR caps higher with Gandiva, but not 35 points higher.

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Hence why I said their almost dead even.

And Crits are worth more when your ration is lower, thus my comment on harder NMs or when the RNG isn't getting BRD / COR buffs. Adding 1.0 to 2.0 is a larger increase then adding it to 3.0. I fully expect Armageddon to have a higher WD. And your not going to be capping fSTR outside of abysesa so that's effectively equal between the two of them. Going to low ball it and say +20 fSTR2 on both of them.

188 vs 223. How much DEX / AGI can a RNG expect to acquire for WS? I'm assuming ~170~200 (going to use 180 from by 5th point of contact).
180 * .85 = 153 vs 91.
376 vs 279 or 34.7% higher base DMG for Last Stand. 32.9% higher fTP on JR. Pretty much dead even if absolutely no crits happen. Its the crits that determine everything.

I do have one question, due to how ranged damage is calculated differently, is dDex still the determiner for crit rate? I always assumed it was.

You wouldn't discount Ukko's crits when comparing it to Upheaval, you shouldn't discount JR's crits.

-=edit=-

After looking over more math / info I would revise my earlier statement. Last Stand = JR as far as average WS damage. JR will have higher spikes but it can also miss hits a bit more often (85.7% chance to land all three) vs LS (90.25% to land both) and it's possibly to have a WS without any crits, then have a WS with all three hits criting.

If the choice is between Anni and Gandiva, get an Anni no questions asked. Having access to WF opens it's own set of options, including doing damage to things that you normally couldn't damage worth a damn.

As I said earlier, Ranged crits are different from melee crits. Ranged crits always increase damage by 25%, while melee crits increase damage by >50% in many situations. This is a fundamental problem with ranged attacks that SE attempted to address with Dead Aim (increases ranged crit damage), but Dead Aim doesn't work on WSs. This is why JR's crit rate is much less important than you think.

When both WS's are damn near dead even in damage, then the one that crits will typically beat the one that doesn't. I know that ranged crits are bleh, hence I mentioned earlier "whatever that's worth". They may not be much but they are something and to pretend they don't exist isn't realistic.

Last Stand is
2.0 @100
2.125 @200
2.25 @300

0.125/4 = 0.03125 for a 25% TP boost bringing it to 2.03125 @100. 2.22525 with belt / gorget. 4.4505 total.

JR 1.75 fTP. 1.944 with belt / gorget, 5.832 total.

31.04% fTP in favor of JR, higher WSC and base DMG will favor LS with a 30~38% base damage. The difference between Last Stand and JR (with absolutely no crits) is down to single digit percentages. Once you put in crits on JR it goes right over LS's damage. The difference between the two is incredibly small which is why crits actually matter, that damage bonus however small is the deciding factor.

Well, using this random set I pulled off of FFXIAH for Last Stand with their suggested modifications: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/256475
91+94 AGI = 157 base damage from AGI

And using this one for Jishnu's: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/219337
86+73 DEX = 80 base damage from DEX

(203+157)/(168+80) = 1.45x more base damage on Last Resort

Near-equal STR on both sets. You would need a 40% crit rate with 0% Crit damage, or a ~27% crit rate with 9% crit damage to make the sets approximately equal. Outside Abyssea when fighting the monsters RNG is good against (aka in Legion or high level VW), a 27% crit rate is probably going to be pretty hard to come by. It is also unclear that Ranged Attack crits work in the same way as melee crits. People aren't even sure they depend on Dex or have the same range.

I hope to hell that's not the set you used, especially if you auto-magically set attack to capped in both cases. The JR set has more ranged attack in it's macro, the LS set is going for pure AGI.

If you set attack to capped then lots of gear in the JR set is worthless.

Talk about biased.

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27% crit rate is probably going to be pretty hard to come by.

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5% Base
5% Merits

Only need 17% more, and you can guarantee that WS is at least 15% @100 if not more. There also is +3% crit rate in that set and their not using the tonberry mantle to get another +5%. Gearing for dex increase's dDex, shouldn't be hard to cap dDex when it's also your WSC. No testing has really been done which is sad, so until there is evidence to the contrary we must assume dDex works in both cases because +crit obvious does. So assuming 0 from dDex we get at least 33% crit rate in JR. Doesn't look nearly so difficult now.

-Edit-
Completely forgot about Athos's set bonus. Swap in Athos's hands, your losing 3 DEX but gaining 7 STR and crit +3%. Also +0.06 fTP 50% of the time (Light / Thunder / Wind / Fire Days). Makes it 6.012 for a 35% fTP favor on 50% of the days, and the other 50% you might want to swap out for the DEX hands. Brings us to 36~37% Crit rate without dDex being involved, and that 8~9% crit damage. Don't know if it would be better to keep the Athos's hands on during the non-alignment days for the 1% crit rate. Actually it would be, with how fSTR2 works it would be another 3.5 fSTR while only losing 1.5 WSC.

And FFS Lithe Boots! with Athos's body? Use Athos's boots for +10 DEX / AGI (4 DEX gain) and another +1% Crit rate.

Also you use a 6AGI 6STR back piece for LS set, yet use a 20 R.Attack piece for the JR set, then set Ratio to auto-magically capped. JR should use the +Crit back piece, if that's not available then there is a 4~5 STR / DEX piece somewhere.